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Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
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May 25, 2005
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Waheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguroo Ji Ki Fateh

Its a shame that you are thinking of leaving this forum. May I suggest leaving this topic rather then the forum. :(


Subject such as this divide communities and I dont think Sir Guru Nanak Dev ji wanted this to happen. As the title state's "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh". Well then, lets not argue over this issue anymore.

I find it ironic...that when this essay was first compiled it may hopefully bridge the gap between those who wrangle over this stupid issue.:confused:

I, however, find myself in the most unenvievable position of acting like a fool and wrangling over the issue everytime I am forced to clarify the content of the essay. I am scratching my head thinking how I got into such a position, when the idea behind this was the complete opposite. :8-:)
 

vaapaaraa

SPNer
Jul 15, 2004
196
6
This is my experience and yes I am at that level and under the guidance of Guru Amar Das ji. My old friend and Guru..... This is my last life. I have been blessed with the ultimate death.
......

Good bye to you and this Forum.

"Mera muj mein kuj nahi, jo kush hai so Tera"
Dhan Guru Amaradas ji.

Unfortunate that you got into useless arguments over this topic, and now leaving the forum... , If you do happen to read this sometime, can you please let us know what you meant by those words in Quote
 

sikh78910

SPNer
Oct 10, 2006
85
0
I accept your sentiments with regards to Akal Takhat, the final authority in making decisions for the Sikh Panth. Those people up there are still ordinary human beings. There is a lot of politics going on there. A Lot goes on behind the scenes that does not get to the likes of you and me.

lol incluiding corruption and indian control, the only reason it is still allowed to stay in being...

Council of Khalistan,
Washington, DC
February 4, 2004. OPEN LETTER TO THE KHALSA PANTH
PARLIAMENT DISSOLVED; ELECTIONS COMING
SIKHS MUST STOP SUPPORTING CORRUPT BADAL, WHO DIMINISHED IMAGE OF SIKH NATION
ONLY IN A FREE KHALISTAN CAN SIKHS PROSPER
AKALI LEADERSHIP CONTROLLED BY INDIAN GOVERNMENT
DEAR KHALSA PANTH:
WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH!
The Indian government has dissolved Parliament. New elections are coming, perhaps as soon as March. Elections under the Indian Constitution will not free the Sikh Nation. Use this opportunity, however, to elect committed, honest Sikhs who are committed to freeing Khalistan to Parliament. Do not support Badal or the Akalis. They are corrupt and have betrayed the Khalsa Panth. Not even a single Akali protested the unprecedented corruption of Badal. They have disgraced the name of the old Akalis who sacrificed their lives for the well being of the Sikh Nation.
The Guru gave sovereignty to the Sikh Nation. (``In Grieb Sikhin Ko Deon Patshahi.'') The Sikh Nation must achieve it. We always remember it by reciting every morning and evening, ``Raj Kare Ga Khalsa.'' Now is the time to act on it. Do we mean what we say every morning and evening?
The fire of freedom still burns strong and bright in the heart of the Sikh Nation. Last year Sikhs openly held seminars in Punjab on the subject of Khalistan. This is a very good sign and we salute the people who participated in these seminars. They are keeping the flame of freedom lit. Now I urge Sikhs to unite and take action to liberate our homeland, Punjab, Khalistan. It is time to start a Shantmai Morcha to liberate Khalistan from Indian occupation.
Never forget that the Akal Takht Sahib and Darbar Sahib are under the control of the Indian government, the same Indian government that has murdered over a quarter of a million Sikhs in the past twenty years. The Jathedar of the Akal Takht and the head granthi of Darbar Sahib toe the line that the Indian government tells them. They are not appointed by the Khalsa Panth. The SGPC, which appoints them, does not represent the Sikh Nation anymore. They have become the puppets of the Indian government and have lost credibility with the Sikh Nation. Otherwise they would behave like a real Jathedar, Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke, rather than like Indian government puppet Jathedar Aroor Singh, who gave a Siropa to General Dyer for the massacre at Jalianawa Bagh. These institutions will remain under the control of the Indian regime until we free the Sikh homeland, Punjab, Khalistan, from Indian occupation and oppression and sever our relations with the New Delhi government.
Yet the Akali Dal continues to support Badal, even though he was prosecuted and jailed for his corruption. According to India-West, the Punjab Vigilance Bureau carried out raids on Badal's properties for several months and filed a charge-sheet in a local court charging Mr. Badal with siphoning off Rs. 784 million, the equivalent of $17 million in U.S. money, during his five years as chief minister. The article says that Mr. Badal and his family hold assets of Rs. 43.26 billion (nearly $1 billion), most of which are located outside India. Half the population of India lives below the international poverty line. About 40 percent live on less than $2 per day.
The Badal government was the most corrupt one in Punjab's history. They sold jobs for a fixed fee. They came up with a new, dignified term for bribery: ``fee for service.'' If you didn't pay the fee, you didn't get the service. The Chief Minister's wife was so experienced that she could pick up a bag of money and tell how much money was in it. Parkash Singh Badal was a disaster for Punjab and a disgrace to the Sikh Nation. How can the Akali Dal, which is supposed to represent the interests of the Sikh Nation, continue to support him?
Badal's corruption brought Punjab to bankruptcy. He was bankrupt morally and religiously as well as bankrupting Punjab financially. It is time for new leadership that shows the moral fabric a Sikh is supposed to have. Badal has destroyed the moral fabric of the Sikh religion. What happened to the concept of fairness and honesty?
The Akalis who protest Badal's prosecution are morally degenerate. They are destroying the moral fabric of Sikhism as a religion and a society. They should be ashamed of themselves. In addition to stealing from the people of Punjab, Mr. Badal worked against the cause of Sikh freedom. Badal was under the complete control of his masters in New Delhi, the militant, fundamentalist Hindu nationalist BJP. He has a long record of betraying the Sikh Nation.
The Akali Dal conspired with the Indian government in 1984 to invade the Golden Temple to murder Sant Bhindranwale and 20,000 other Sikh during June 1984 in Punjab. If Sikhs will not even protect the sanctity of the Golden Temple, how can the Sikh Nation survive as a nation?
The Akali Dal has lost all its credibility. The Badal government was so corrupt openly and no Akali leader would come forward and tell Badal and his wife to stop this unparalleled corruption. That is why the Akali Dal was defeated in the elections by the Congress Party. The Sikh Nation never can forgive or forget the attack on the Golden Temple. The Congress Party is the enemy of the Sikh Nation. Badal was so corrupt that the Sikhs had to vote for their enemy, the Congress Party, rather than Badal and his henchmen because there was no other party to vote for.
Because Sikhs are slaves in India, there is nobody to defend the Sikh interests internationally. Recently, an issue came up of the French banning the wearing of turbans in school. If Khalistan were free, the Sikh Nation could call the French Ambassador and tell him to stop this harassment of Sikhs. Our Ambassador to France would tell the French government the same thing: the turban is part of the Sikh religion and Sikhs should not be harassed.
Remember the words of Professor Darshan Singh, former Akal Takht Jathedar: ``If a Sikh is not a Khalistani, he is not a Sikh.'' Sikhs should vote only for candidates who are prepared to do so. Otherwise, you are just voting to condemn your children and grandchildren to continued slavery under brutal Brahmin theocratic rule.
The time to achieve our independence is now. India is not one country. It has 18 official languages. Soon Kashmir will be free from Indian occupation. Now America is involved in it. As L.K. Advani predicted, ``When Kashmir goes, India goes.'' We agree with him.
When I met President Bush on December 5, he personally told me, ``I am aware of the Sikh and Kashmiri problem and we stopped India and Pakistan from going to nuclear war.'' The Sikh diaspora has a moral responsibility to help the Sikh Nation to achieve its sovereignty by freeing Khalistan from Indian occupation.
The time has come to liberate our homeland. It is the only way that we can prevent further degenerations of the Sikh Nation like the Badal regime. Sikhs must claim their birthright by liberating Khalistan. Only by freeing Khalistan will we put an end to this corruption and restore control of Punjab and its assets to the people, to whom it rightfully belongs. A free Khalistan is a must for the survival of the Sikh nation and will provide an optimal environment for the Sikh Nation to progress to its optimum potential politically, religiously, and economically.
Panth Da Sewadar,
Dr. GURMIT SINGH AULAKH,
President,

if you dont agree with this, google it and you'll find many more articles on this.....:)
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Murdar is Farsi or Urdu thing and refers to dead body.Nihungs are not allowed to eat it as Muslims and only killed Animal is OK.Eating Murdar may be deemed as Anti Hindu or Anti Muslim thing.So crruopt acts are eqaul to eating dead.

No need to bring meat inside this.There is lower caste Rahiya in Hindu,who was forced to eat dead animals in past by upper castes.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,949
55
United Kingdom
Interestingly, check out the link here:

Talk:prohibitions in Sikhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is amazing hot the nuthugger brigade will go to even resort to slanderous remarks, downright lies, inuendo, and baseless accusations to put forward their point of view. There will be only one loser ultimately, and that will be Sikhism. That is why I have always said, that diet in Sikhism is a matter for individual conscience.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
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INDIA
Interestingly, check out the link here:

Talk:prohibitions in Sikhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is amazing hot the nuthugger brigade will go to even resort to slanderous remarks, downright lies, inuendo, and baseless accusations to put forward their point of view. There will be only one loser ultimately, and that will be Sikhism. That is why I have always said, that diet in Sikhism is a matter for individual conscience.

extremist vegetarian sikhs on internet are hopeless case.no amount of
arguement,historical evidence is is going to convince them that diet is non issue in sikhism.when i was a teenager me and my family travelled from bhopal to hyderabad by road.we ate our lunch and dinner in roadside dhaba's
owned by sikhs.majority of them were quite strict in their sikhi.the dhaba's
regularly served non veg food mainly chicken and fish.my dad asked
one of the dhaba owner what about mutton he replied all the mutton avalable is halaal that's why we don't serve it.despite the fact serving mutton could have boosted their business they were not ready to serve it.i was really
impressed by their sikhi.but these vegetarian internet sikhs in west are now so much brainwashed that they beleive that eating meat is cardinal sin.
if eating meat is cardinal sin in sikhi then majority of sikhs wrongly followed sikhi.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,949
55
United Kingdom
extremist vegetarian sikhs on internet are hopeless case.no amount of
arguement,historical evidence is is going to convince them that diet is non issue in sikhism.when i was a teenager me and my family travelled from bhopal to hyderabad by road.we ate our lunch and dinner in roadside dhaba's
owned by sikhs.majority of them were quite strict in their sikhi.the dhaba's
regularly served non veg food mainly chicken and fish.my dad asked
one of the dhaba owner what about mutton he replied all the mutton avalable is halaal that's why we don't serve it.despite the fact serving mutton could have boosted their business they were not ready to serve it.i was really
impressed by their sikhi.but these vegetarian internet sikhs in west are now so much brainwashed that they beleive that eating meat is cardinal sin.
if eating meat is cardinal sin in sikhi then majority of sikhs wrongly followed sikhi.

If you read wikipedia, the only thing that is suffering is Sikhi. Apparently wikipedia only uses verifiable sources, but these fellows seem to be dismissing them.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
while searching internet i found amarnamah.i was quite shocked too read that
banda bahadur was not submitting to guru gobind singh ji on single issue of vegetarianism that's why guru gobind singh ji ordered to slaughter his goats
so guru gobind singh ji was totaly against fanatic vegetarianism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to The Institute of Sikh Studies-->Publications

It is clear from what transpired on September 03, 1708, the day of the solar eclipse, that, eventually Banda's objection to submitting to the Guru was on the single point of vegetarianism. The Guru decided to wait no longer. The master psychologist that he was, he forced the issue in such a manner that Banda would have to make the final choice in the matter of accepting him as the Guru. Anticipating what was to come he did not distribute any cattle to the Lombadas on that day.

The Guru ordered his Sikhs to get ready to visit Banda's place. On reaching there they found him absent. The Guru gave instruction to slaughter Banda's goats, which was immediately complied with. The jungle-folk knew from experience that the meat was meant for them, and came immediately to wait upon the Guru in anticipation.

When the subject of Hindu resentment was brought up, the Guru explained that the outcastes had a right to be fed and comforted, and that there was nothing wrong with the slaughter of goats on the occasion of solar eclipse which was a natural phenomenon.

The obedient Sikhs, when asked by the Guru to kill the goats belonging to Banda,(ll)
Complied and slaughtered all the goats (12).
(On seeing this) tribal people (of the vicinity) rushed like wind, obviously eager to cook the meat (13).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
now i am wondering how many historical evidences fanatic vegetarian sikhs are going to deny.randip singh ji you should also add this historical proof in the article.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,949
55
United Kingdom
while searching internet i found amarnamah.i was quite shocked too read that
banda bahadur was not submitting to guru gobind singh ji on single issue of vegetarianism that's why guru gobind singh ji ordered to slaughter his goats
so guru gobind singh ji was totaly against fanatic vegetarianism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to The Institute of Sikh Studies-->Publications

It is clear from what transpired on September 03, 1708, the day of the solar eclipse, that, eventually Banda's objection to submitting to the Guru was on the single point of vegetarianism. The Guru decided to wait no longer. The master psychologist that he was, he forced the issue in such a manner that Banda would have to make the final choice in the matter of accepting him as the Guru. Anticipating what was to come he did not distribute any cattle to the Lombadas on that day.

The Guru ordered his Sikhs to get ready to visit Banda's place. On reaching there they found him absent. The Guru gave instruction to slaughter Banda's goats, which was immediately complied with. The jungle-folk knew from experience that the meat was meant for them, and came immediately to wait upon the Guru in anticipation.

When the subject of Hindu resentment was brought up, the Guru explained that the outcastes had a right to be fed and comforted, and that there was nothing wrong with the slaughter of goats on the occasion of solar eclipse which was a natural phenomenon.

The obedient Sikhs, when asked by the Guru to kill the goats belonging to Banda,(ll)
Complied and slaughtered all the goats (12).
(On seeing this) tribal people (of the vicinity) rushed like wind, obviously eager to cook the meat (13).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
now i am wondering how many historical evidences fanatic vegetarian sikhs are going to deny.randip singh ji you should also add this historical proof in the article.


Great research....thanks.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
kids1980

Would it be too much trouble for you to write a synopsis of what Professor ji is saying. This is an interesting subject. For those of us who don't read Punjabi or are not that good at it. People are always curious about the vegetarian way of eating, and there are degrees of fanaticism here as well-- some people even avoid refined sugar because the process can include the use of charcoal made from animal bones.

I am a vegetarian, and sometimes it is really hard to get something to eat-- for example, a big party or reception. There is salad and bread. So many of us eat before we go out, and then eat the salad when we get to the party. Some of us have taken up Indian cooking so that there is more than a lettuce and tomato sandwich for lunch. And then of course there are friends who urge you to eat shrimp (they wanted to be really nice and spent a lot of $$$ on the shrimp) but you have to say No, and they don't understand.

There is a lot to this topic.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
kids1980

Would it be too much trouble for you to write a synopsis of what Professor ji is saying. This is an interesting subject. For those of us who don't read Punjabi or are not that good at it. People are always curious about the vegetarian way of eating, and there are degrees of fanaticism here as well-- some people even avoid refined sugar because the process can include the use of charcoal made from animal bones.

I am a vegetarian, and sometimes it is really hard to get something to eat-- for example, a big party or reception. There is salad and bread. So many of us eat before we go out, and then eat the salad when we get to the party. Some of us have taken up Indian cooking so that there is more than a lettuce and tomato sandwich for lunch. And then of course there are friends who urge you to eat shrimp (they wanted to be really nice and spent a lot of $$$ on the shrimp) but you have to say No, and they don't understand.

There is a lot to this topic.

dear aad002 ji

First of all i am not kids

Secondly my punjabi and english are not very good.but i will try.anyway i think that already much information is provided on this subject in the essay above and the entire
23 page debate here.
 
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
The Fools have Wrangled again and by the Grace of Guru Amar Das ji, I feel compelled to respond to this Blasphemious Essay.


The authors of this essay have failed in their attempt to be impartial on the objective set out. These two unknown /unnamed individuals call themselves Sikhs and are self confessed Historians and Commentators on Sikh Affairs. Their background, experience and public standing is unknown other than their mouthing off ability. Their knowledge and experience is questionable as the information put forward is biased, borrowed (Mistranslations of Gurbani floating around on the net by various authors where vital text has been missed out of translations in order to engineer the meanings to their line of thoughts.)

This essay is in not objective as being claimed. The authors have played both the Devil and its Advocate. The counter arguments used by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs is no more than a sleeping policemans statement. These people have had no input in the contents of this essay and thus their comments cannot be taken as valid.

“History” that does not back their arguments is deemed incorrect. “Mistranslation” that do not agree with their viewpoint is deemed incorrect. The Essay contains the ill-informed views of these two unknown individuals who have not a iota of the understanding of Bani and Spirituality and is no less than Blasphemy against SGGS and Ghor insult to our Gurus. There is a distinct lack of understanding of Sikhism on the part of the original poster of this concoction for it shows the level of his mindset for promoting this article. Gurbani has been manipulated and mistranslated throughout this essay.

I would ask the authors of this essay to refer back to their essay and check their Gurbani translations for corrections.
Consider all other tuk’s previousily avoided from SGGS that would weaken their arguments.
Consider all Banis (Not selective) and lifestyles of all Bhagats as well as Gurus.
Consider the title Diet & Spirituality and not concentrate on the single word “Mass” as has been focused on. The present title is inappropriate.
However the title does sum up the intelligence of the Authors and supporters of this Essay

Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue over flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
The second half of the “tuk”is Gurus reply to the essay.

What makes these unknown authors an authority over the livestyles of Sikh Gurus and Bhagats. Why do they hide their names and faces if the believe so strongly about their Essay.
Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Daas Ji - Teri Upmaan Tohe Ban Aaye
 

drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
1,308
54
I agree that fools wrangle here

But the thing i fail to see is how you stand different from fools when you selectively respond to meat issue posts bygoing out of the way

I n short i can see you on the same poidium whether fool or not you decide


Jatinder Singh
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
drkhalsa

Diet tells a story always about the beliefs and passions of a people, because over time they forget history. It goes so deep that re-telling the facts simply doesn't sink in. This happens in every tradition -- and so we can look into the conversation almost like anthropologists. Once I learned that it was not necessary to be a vegetarian, even then I still could not go back to the old way.

Let me be the first to confess. I am a fool. No question. No debate.
 

drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
1,308
54
Dear friend aad0002,

I responded in above post to ek musaafir

I agree with you view about diet although it is something new to me !
you rae really very original and creative thinker and i always appreciates that and it s true there is noneed to go to old ways

Our friend ekmusafir_ajnabi
is very great personality as apeear from his posts but due to my own shortcoming I could not understand why is he interested such a issue which has little relevance .that was the reason I responded and may be I was too Harsh
So ask for Pardon from
ekmusafir_ajnabi ji
Ae kind enough to forgive m e



Jatinder singh
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
I agree that fools wrangle here

But the thing i fail to see is how you stand different from fools when you selectively respond to meat issue posts bygoing out of the way

I n short i can see you on the same poidium whether fool or not you decide


Jatinder Singh

dear jatinder singh ji

From past 5 months no one is debating on meat issue.i just found great articles on this issue by professor surjit singh on sikhmarg.com and so i posted its link on spn.aad002
ji just ask me to post sypnosis in english of those articles.

As far as ekmusafir ji is concerned he already blamed this article as blasphemous and already had big debate with the poster of the article randip singh.
.And just because of this article he decided to leave this forum.Now he is back again attacking the writers of the article.
 

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