Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[spnadmin]

kds and drkhalsa

Yes, I read the very first comments in the thread last night. Randip and an un-named friend wrote a very long article in which they found every verse in Guruji that pertained to meat or fish, and the slaughter of animals, etc. Then they demonstrated how by translating the entire poem containing the verse, the meaning of the verse can be understood more precisely because of its surrounding context. It took 5 years to do this systematically according to Randip ji. For example, a prohibition against eating fish turns out be instead a plea to shun the arrogance of the aristocracy. Fish symbolizing the aristocracy of the time. The essay is a scholarly effort.

However, as several have commented earlier-- the topic of vegetarian diet strikes a cord that is not always cool, calm and collected, because the decision to be a vegetarian comes from the heart not the head. This is not always a bad thing.

Articles by Sikh scholars are a personal interest for me and kds is going to summarize Professor Surjit's ideas because many of us can't read Punjabi that well. The professor takes a view that vegetarians go overboard. Rehit Maryada doesn't call for it. To conclude, Randip ji isn't an apostate, in case anyone thought he was.

That is where we stand so far. Told you all the topic is a lively one.

 

[Randip Singh]

The Fools have Wrangled again and by the Grace of Guru Amar Das ji, I feel compelled to respond to this Blasphemious Essay.

S: (adj) blasphemous, profane, sacrilegious (grossly irreverent toward what is held to be sacred) "blasphemous rites of a witches' Sabbath"; "profane utterances against the Church"; "it is sacrilegious to enter with shoes on"
S: (adj) blasphemous, blue, profane (characterized by profanity or cursing) "foul-mouthed and blasphemous"; "blue language"; "profane words"


Looking at the definition of blasphemy or blasphemous I fail to find what is blasphemous in this essay? Maybe you would care to enlighten us?

Also, please do not use fanatical terminoligy such as "Blasphemous". Such terminoligy is more fitting with organisations such as Al-Qaeeda.

There is nothing Blasphemous about the truth. If the truth huirts you so much then please counter it. You have tried once before to "counter" it, but your arguments were defeated easil

The authors of this essay have failed in their attempt to be impartial on the objective set out.

How is this? There are more than 20 objective refrences to articles on this issue in the article so how how and what basis do you say the authors have failed?

These two unknown /unnamed individuals call themselves Sikhs and are self confessed Historians and Commentators on Sikh Affairs. Their background, experience and public standing is unknown other than their mouthing off ability.

The refrences they use speak for themselves, so please counteract the refrences. As for personal and derogatory comments such as "mouthing off" that is irrelevant.

Their knowledge and experience is questionable as the information put forward is biased, borrowed (Mistranslations of Gurbani floating around on the net by various authors where vital text has been missed out of translations in order to engineer the meanings to their line of thoughts.)

As far as I can see there are citations and named sources withis the essay, so how is this "biased" or "borrowed"? Please elaborate?

This essay is in not objective as being claimed. The authors have played both the Devil and its Advocate. The counter arguments used by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs is no more than a sleeping policemans statement. These people have had no input in the contents of this essay and thus their comments cannot be taken as valid.

Playing Devil and Advocate shows signs of being balanced surely? The Devil makes and Argumant and the Advocate counters. So you are saying in effect that this essay is balanced?

“History” that does not back their arguments is deemed incorrect. “Mistranslation” that do not agree with their viewpoint is deemed incorrect. The Essay contains the ill-informed views of these two unknown individuals who have not a iota of the understanding of Bani and Spirituality and is no less than Blasphemy against SGGS and Ghor insult to our Gurus. There is a distinct lack of understanding of Sikhism on the part of the original poster of this concoction for it shows the level of his mindset for promoting this article. Gurbani has been manipulated and mistranslated throughout this essay.

The only insult to Sikhism being made is making the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji into a vegetarian menu for Hindu Vashnavites.

If you have actual proof that Historcal texts are incorrect in this essay then please counter it. Also please counter mistranslations with facts and not fiction. In fact I pointed out a mistranslation by you earlier this year and you have not counter acted it. Here is the link to the previous debate:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh-20.html

I would ask the authors of this essay to refer back to their essay and check their Gurbani translations for corrections.

As far as I can see the translations are correct.

Consider all other tuk’s previousily avoided from SGGS that would weaken their arguments.

Please post other Tukhs. Those too will be looked at as they have been in this discussion thred.

Consider all Banis (Not selective) and lifestyles of all Bhagats as well as Gurus.

There is only one Bani and that is Gurbani and that has been considered wholly here.

Consider the title Diet & Spirituality and not concentrate on the single word “Mass” as has been focused on. The present title is inappropriate.
However the title does sum up the intelligence of the Authors and supporters of this Essay

Maas is the word in the Punjabi dictionary for meat and flesh There are no other refrences to meat in Gurbani.

Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue over flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
The second half of the “tuk”is Gurus reply to the essay.

and the Guru also says:

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

I think people who hold their noses should not forget to breath at some point as oxygen depletion to the brain can lead to irrational thinking and even brain damage.

What makes these unknown authors an authority over the livestyles of Sikh Gurus and Bhagats. Why do they hide their names and faces if the believe so strongly about their Essay.
Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Daas Ji - Teri Upmaan Tohe Ban Aaye

The authors have made a considered and fact based opinion on the issue. Rather than taking swipes and cheapshots, should you not try and make a considered counter argument?

 

[Randip Singh]

As far as ekmusafir ji is concerned he already blamed this article as blasphemous and already had big debate with the poster of the article randip singh.
.And just because of this article he decided to leave this forum.Now he is back again attacking the writers of the article.

Ekhmusafir sems to represent the ugly face of Sikhism and religion in general.The intolerant face that leaves no room for discussion or debate, and labels people as blasphemous. What next? Book burning and burning people at the stake?

It is true Ekh Musafir left this forum after losing the debate on this article. He used refrences that tied himself up. He was also unsure of the meaning of words.

 

[spnadmin]

For your enjoyment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sikhtoons - Sikh Cartoons with a Message

 

[kaur-1]

For your enjoyment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sikhtoons - Sikh Cartoons with a Message

Your Sikhtoon selection made me smile. :}{}{}:

 

[Shaheediyan]

Hello, could someone kindly tell me which page veer Randip Singh Ji's article is on (sorry for being seemingly lazy, the number of pages on this thread is intimidating)!

Dhanvaad

 

[hchohan]

are all of us fools still arguing about this issue...

all you need to answer this issue is to subdue the five thieves:
kam (desire), krodh (anger), lobh (Greed), moh (Attachment) and ahankar (ego)

and embrace the five virtues:
Sat (Truth), Santokh (Contentment), Daya (Compassion), Nimrata (Humility) and Pyare (Love).

once you understand that you have your answer to the issue there is no point in continuing this debate.

 

[kds1980]

Hello, could someone kindly tell me which page veer Randip Singh Ji's article is on (sorry for being seemingly lazy, the number of pages on this thread is intimidating)!

Dhanvaad

veer ji it is on page no.1

 

[Shaheediyan]

Doh!

Dhanvaad veer ji.

 

[Randip Singh]

are all of us fools still arguing about this issue...

all you need to answer this issue is to subdue the five thieves:
kam (desire), krodh (anger), lobh (Greed), moh (Attachment) and ahankar (ego)

and embrace the five virtues:
Sat (Truth), Santokh (Contentment), Daya (Compassion), Nimrata (Humility) and Pyare (Love).

once you understand that you have your answer to the issue there is no point in continuing this debate.

Precisely the point of the essay.

Once you have consideration for the above it matters not what diet you take.......vegetarian or meat.

 

[hchohan]

Precisely the point of the essay.

Once you have consideration for the above it matters not what diet you take.......vegetarian or meat.

erm no,
not quite - but I hope you get there some day paaji

 

[Randip Singh]

erm no,
not quite - but I hope you get there some day paaji

Paaji,

If you mean by "I hope you get there some day paaji", you mean I adopt a narrow definition of Bani and adhere to viewpoints of Jatha's, Sant's and Dera's (who are inturn influenced by Vaishnavism) rather than the Universal message of Sikhi (which applies equally to people who live on the plains of Punjab , to the people of Alaska, to the Beduin's in the remote deserts), then I hope I never get it!!! :roll:

I used to share the narrow definition of Sikhi which comprised of certain diets but reading more into Bani one can clearly see, that Bani is not as a-la-carte menu of what to eat and not to but a spiritual guide that deals with much higher issues. If we were to follow such narrow definitions then your average Inuit, or Kalhari hunter would be an eternal sinner, something which is absolute nonsense.

Thanks

 

[hchohan]

I really did not want to get drawn back into this {censored} for tat.

The Guru's & SGGS teach against "vaishnavsism" and similar beliefs. i.e. vegetarianism alone is NOT a path to salvation.
YES, I agree with you 100%, I am not disputing this at all. Meat eaters or Veggies have no monopoly on that.
I've said it before - Will you ever convince me that for me non-veg is "ideal" Sikhi I should strive for - no way. Why..?
Well among my many reasons I'll give you three
The Guru's were veggie - by fact of langar being the Guru's kitchen and before formal langar Guru Nanak Ji's vegetanarism evidenced during his udassi's.
The examples of the Bhagat's (Sadhana Ji, Kabir Ji, Ravi Dass Ji etc)
and my understanding of the Guru's and SGGS Ji teaching regarding Daya and the other 4 virtues etc.

I do however have great respect for you as you have highlighted (and educated me) the simple sillyness of some of the arguements used by "fanatical veggies". Those who like you say behave more like "vaishnavs" than Sikhs.
anyone else think this thread should be closed..?


Similar to this issue one thing that still surprises me is the number of people who consumed products containing vinegar (principly certain types of processed food like baked beans/ketchup) as they vinegar is obtained from alcohol.
We dont really eat processed food but what are peoples opinion on this..?

 

[kds1980]

dear chohan ji

you are again and again mentioning word daya.may i ask you why the concept of daya vanishes when

1)when we castrate bulls and force them to plough our fields.

2)when we tie cows or buffaloes in tight shed and force them to produce as much milk as they can

3)when we force donkeys or mules to carry load

4)when we use leather

5)when we use pesticides and kill millions of harmful as well as harmless living beings.


here is the report from indian diary industry

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Egypt, for example, the severe mortality rate among buffalo calves is due in part to the sale of buffalo milk, which is in high demand, thus depriving calves of proper nourishment. This also occurs in India, where in the Bombay area alone an estimated 10,000 newborn calves starve to death each year through lack of milk.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i am sorry to say if one is against meat then he should be also against use of milk and milk products.no way a person can justify milk drinking.

 

[hchohan]

good point my friend
and we must all do our part to help

if direct action is not possible - then their are orgs that exist to assist (my current preffered option).


although to be honest - i'm currently focusing my attentions on climate change and ways I can reduce my carbon footprint
we must all do our bit wherever we can

 

[Shaheediyan]

Interesting article Randip veer ji, well done for the effort.I have often used the phrase "what are Eskimos supposed to eat, snow... and whar are Australian Aboriginals supposed to eat, sand.....", so it made smile when I read your post relating to Inuits!Although I am a vegetarian (though personal choice and later on, Guru Gobind Singh Jis hukummy in the form of panj pyare), I agree KDS, there is much hypocrisy in the panth esp with regards to the ignorence of world wide milk production, specifically Punjab, where Bulls no longer serve a purpose, have these people ever wondered where all the bull calfs disappear too.... and I don't see any Gurdwara using Organic milk, having seen the monstrous conditions factory production dairy cows live in....Sikhi is a universal and all encompassing faith, and practical. I refuse to believe an Kalahari Bushman is going to be damned because of their diet.Although I do believe where possible we should simplify our lifestyle, including our diet. Meat is traditionally classed as a luxury in all communities, as it is harder to come by than fruit or vegatable, hence why Semetic and Indic faiths sacrifice animals on special occassions. Also, traditionally in many ancient communities, an animal is slaughtered when a guest visits, a sign of hospitality. In addition, meat usually only makes up a special occassion or once weekly part of many poor commnuities diets in the world i.e. rural China and Middle Eastern tribes, those that are stereotyped to be voracious meat eaters.So simplicity usually consists of the more easily, economically viable, environmentally friendly and widely available grain foods.Looking at it from a scientific perspective, meat demand today is environmentally devastating and unsustainable, because of the change from meat being a luxury to a daily diet for an ever increasing population.Obviously those who are living responsibl in harmony with nature are not to blame, but the more wealthy need to take a more responsible attitude, as continually destroying already diminished rainforests to provide grazing for cattle is not good for the Earths health in many ways.Lastly, a lot of meat production in the west is produced in abattoirs which jointly produce halaal/kosher meat. The west is indifferent, the semetics fulfill their sharia, everyone is happy. Ignorent Sikhs break their rehit.Lastly, if we are to follow 10th Masters instructions, then the only way to know your meat isn't kutha, or hasn't been killed in the usual cruel manner in modern meat production, the only way to be sure, as per Nihang tradition, is to perform Jatka.I don't see anyone doing that in the west.Vaheguru

 

[Randip Singh]

I've said it before - Will you ever convince me that for me non-veg is "ideal" Sikhi I should strive for - no way. Why..?

No No NO and No again.

Non- Veg is not ideal for Sikhs. Vegetarian is not ideal for Sikhs. It is up to the individual Sikh to make his or her mind up.

I would never ever dream of making you a vegetarian into a meat eater....in the same breath I would never ever dream of making a meat eater into a vegetarian (but I once did....oh how egotistical and foolish and naive I was).

Well among my many reasons I'll give you three
The Guru's were veggie - by fact of langar being the Guru's kitchen and before formal langar Guru Nanak Ji's vegetanarism evidenced during his udassi's.

There is eveidence to suggest that the Guru's were not veggie too.....this is a moot point and irrelevant.

Langaar is vegetarian so as to be acceptable to all. There are Gurudwara's such as Gwalior where they kill goats to commemorate the meeting of Guru Gobind Singh ji and Bandha Bahadhur and serve that as langar. You will be surprised how diverse Sikhi is.

The examples of the Bhagat's (Sadhana Ji, Kabir Ji, Ravi Dass Ji etc)
and my understanding of the Guru's and SGGS Ji teaching regarding Daya and the other 4 virtues etc.

Interestingly Sadhana never gave up being a butcher yet was considered a Saint. Bhaghat Kabir was a Muslim weavers son and so was aware of muslim animal sacrifice.......Ravi Dass's profession was to kill animals and make leather.........

...as for Daya....if you are saying vegetarianism is a measure of Daya then tell me where was Adolf Hitler's Daya for the Jews? or the so called Animal Rights people who dig up human remains of loved ones in order to stop animal experiments? All these people are vegetarians?

...what about Daya for plants....living breathing reproducing yet we kill them for gratification of our own tastebuds.......According to Bani being a plant is only one incarnation away from being a human being:

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

So should we not have Daya for the plant? Poor thing cannot run away? Cannot express its distress?

I do however have great respect for you as you have highlighted (and educated me) the simple sillyness of some of the arguements used by "fanatical veggies". Those who like you say behave more like "vaishnavs" than Sikhs.
anyone else think this thread should be closed..?

I see a trend developing amongst Sikh's.

We shun meat eaaters....then we shun people who don't cook in a certain way....then we shun people who eat plants grown in the eath (because they are in contact with earth)......etc etc....this is already happening with Sikhs and it troubles me.

Similar to this issue one thing that still surprises me is the number of people who consumed products containing vinegar (principly certain types of processed food like baked beans/ketchup) as they vinegar is obtained from alcohol.
We dont really eat processed food but what are peoples opinion on this..?

Eat unprocessed food......beggie or meat eater go Organic...buy from farms...grow your own......etc.

Alcohol is the biggest problem of our time........I have no problem of alcoholo being used medicinally......even in cooking (as it can kill bacteria)..........but boozing is a no no........

 

[Randip Singh]

Interesting article Randip veer ji, well done for the effort.I have often used the phrase "what are Eskimos supposed to eat, snow... and whar are Australian Aboriginals supposed to eat, sand.....", so it made smile when I read your post relating to Inuits!Although I am a vegetarian (though personal choice and later on, Guru Gobind Singh Jis hukummy in the form of panj pyare), I agree KDS, there is much hypocrisy in the panth esp with regards to the ignorence of world wide milk production, specifically Punjab, where Bulls no longer serve a purpose, have these people ever wondered where all the bull calfs disappear too.... and I don't see any Gurdwara using Organic milk, having seen the monstrous conditions factory production dairy cows live in....Sikhi is a universal and all encompassing faith, and practical. I refuse to believe an Kalahari Bushman is going to be damned because of their diet.Although I do believe where possible we should simplify our lifestyle, including our diet. Meat is traditionally classed as a luxury in all communities, as it is harder to come by than fruit or vegatable, hence why Semetic and Indic faiths sacrifice animals on special occassions. Also, traditionally in many ancient communities, an animal is slaughtered when a guest visits, a sign of hospitality. In addition, meat usually only makes up a special occassion or once weekly part of many poor commnuities diets in the world i.e. rural China and Middle Eastern tribes, those that are stereotyped to be voracious meat eaters.So simplicity usually consists of the more easily, economically viable, environmentally friendly and widely available grain foods.Looking at it from a scientific perspective, meat demand today is environmentally devastating and unsustainable, because of the change from meat being a luxury to a daily diet for an ever increasing population.Obviously those who are living responsibl in harmony with nature are not to blame, but the more wealthy need to take a more responsible attitude, as continually destroying already diminished rainforests to provide grazing for cattle is not good for the Earths health in many ways.Lastly, a lot of meat production in the west is produced in abattoirs which jointly produce halaal/kosher meat. The west is indifferent, the semetics fulfill their sharia, everyone is happy. Ignorent Sikhs break their rehit.Lastly, if we are to follow 10th Masters instructions, then the only way to know your meat isn't kutha, or hasn't been killed in the usual cruel manner in modern meat production, the only way to be sure, as per Nihang tradition, is to perform Jatka.I don't see anyone doing that in the west.Vaheguru

Go Organic if you buy veggies. Go organic if you buy meat.

Let you own conscience decide what is acceptable.

I don't think meat is a luxury in many cultures I have visited......infact beans, barley, wheat are seen as a luxury.

As for devistation....well the Egyptians farmed wheat in the fertile plains of Egypt some 2000 years ago.........it is desert apart from actually around the Nile Delta.

Whatever we do....we have to do it responsibly.

 

[kds1980]

shaheediyan wrote

Meat is traditionally classed as a luxury in all communities, as it is harder to come by than fruit or vegatable, hence why Semetic and Indic faiths sacrifice animals on special occassions. Also, traditionally in many ancient communities, an animal is slaughtered when a guest visits, a sign of hospitality. In addition, meat usually only makes up a special occassion or once weekly part of many poor commnuities diets in the world i.e. rural China and Middle Eastern tribes, those that are stereotyped to be voracious meat eaters.

veer ji all meat is not the same some type of meat is considered as luxury while other is considered as ordinary food.if you visit coastal areas you will find majority of poor people
are non vegetarians because in those areas fish and other type of sea food is cheaper than vegetables.in india muslims are among the poorest people but still they are considered as voracious meat eaters because they every eat type of meat like buffaloe except pork.on the hand among hindu's dalit eat pork which is also quite cheap.among the upper caste hindu's milk and milk products are considered as luxury along with mutton and chicken.

Looking at it from a scientific perspective, meat demand today is environmentally devastating and unsustainable, because of the change from meat being a luxury to a daily diet for an ever increasing population.Obviously those who are living responsibl in harmony with nature are not to blame, but the more wealthy need to take a more responsible attitude, as continually destroying already diminished rainforests to provide grazing for cattle is not good for the Earths health in many ways.

Again this arguement is also applicable on milk and milk products.Just take a look at india
Majority of indians don't consume cow or buffaloe meat but due to demand of milk and milk products diary industry is growing so is the population of cows and buffaloes.the people who consume the meat of cows and buffaloes are doing a big favour on the environment of india by consuming useless cows and buffaloes.

Btw environmental issue is not only concerned with meat it is concerned with whole luxirious lifestyle of rich people.Using abandonce of electricity,using big cars which are less efficent,using plenty of water are disastrous etc.If someone is concerned environment then he has to adopt very simple lifestyle which is very difficuilt.

 

[Shaheediyan]

Randip Singh Ji,

I am not talking about modern cultures where meat is avaiable for pennies, I am talking about societies before the onset of factory farming, as close as 40 years ago, things were a lot different.

By luxury, I am insinuating that meat was not part of the daily diet. You can do some research to check this, prior to factory/mass farming, growing an animal was resource and time intensive, the animal had a value, unlike today.

Meat was therefore eaten consideratly i.e. once a week, this was true in most cultures. Today is a different story, greed and demand are strife.

Kudos to KDS, the fishing commnities were an exception.

"the people who consume the meat of cows and buffaloes are doing a big favour on the environment of india by consuming useless cows and buffaloes."

However, that is a very poor justification arguement, the demand for meat eaters is not satisfied through consuming "useless" animals, rainforests, eco-systems etc are destroyed to satisfy the ever growing "daily" demand for meat. The cattle population is only so stupidly huge because of mans monstrous greed.

I have no problem with people eating meat, but it should be done with consideration to our environment.

Andone point that wasn't address, and never is by Sikh meat eaters... where is the guarantee that meat isn't halaal or been killed in monstrous conditions, and what happened to Jatka???

There is no point mentioning cars etc, although true, this discussion is about meat. In any case, you could use public transport like I do, switch to a green energy supplier, buy an electric car, or convert your diesel to bio-fuel and use vegetable oil for fuel, which competely reduces carbon emission.