- Dec 21, 2010
- 3,384
- 5,689
Just cook it well body will do wonders. It adapts but sometimes slowly.
Take care and don't get trapped by mis-information clutter.
Sat Sri Akal.
Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
- Thread starter Randip Singh
- Start date
- Replies 1K
- Reads 338K
Take care and don't get trapped by mis-information clutter.
Sat Sri Akal.
Uncle ji,
i know you are from a older generation and you were teached not to eat meat. The reasons why, I dont know, maybe you never asked why or replied to anyone. But the main point is you are talking like a uneducated muslim, who is talking superstitious and clueless( I Dont want offend any created animals who(can) consume flesh? This is a deep topic. )
Veerji
There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.
I did eat meat. I ate until about 20 years ago. When Babaji walked up to me and spoke to me saying I was eating the suffering of the animal
I stopped then.
Since then I had had divine experiences where animals talk to me telepathically.
It sounds unbelievable however there are many who communicate with animals.
AURA : You are misguided and misinformed :
The Moslems cover their women from head to feet in black clothing as it gives the man power and control over them.
Its nothing to do with the Aura.
The Aura is invisible to the normal eye
The human aura is the energy field that surrounds the physical body. It surrounds you in all directions. It is three dimensional. In a healthy individual, it makes an elliptical or egg shape about the body. Theauras of the masters extends outward from the body for several miles. It is often believed that this is one of the reasons they draw such large numbers of followers in any area where they travel. It is worth noting that a common depiction of many masters included the halo, a portion of the aura that is most easily seen by the average individual.
The aura is weakened by:
1. Poor diet
2. Lack of exercise
3. Lack of fresh air
4. Lack of rest
5. Stress
6. Alcohol
7. Drugs
8. Tobacco
9. Negative habits
10. Improper psychic activity
Another fact is Black clothing attracts negativity. Which is one reason why there is so much neagativity with people born out of mothers wearing totatly black as they have been seeped in negative vibrations.
All creation is Vibration
The sun gives off heat if we wear black we become hot.
If w wear light colour clothes we stay cool.
Negative vibration is therefore attracted much more to people wearing black attire.
Think about this rationaly then question me please
Black absorbs heat and vibration
Light colours repel.
Which is why our Gurus wore white and light colours this is more important at funerals and in hospitals
where much negative Entities float about.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thiing.
Knowledge earned by experience is important.
Many of us accept what is told to us without meditating or gaining insights into
whys and nos.
In God's services always
Forgive me if I have offended anyone by my writings
Amarjit
.
Archived_member14
SPNer
Amarjit ji,
You may have not read the views that I’ve expressed in this matter, so I’ll repeat them here.
But we do need to send out a message that is in line with the truth. If we want to make a statement about the wrongness of killing, we should not bring eating and not eating meat into the picture, otherwise it confuses the issue. And when the other person hears this, he reacts by making a similar mistake of associating the morally neutral act of eating meat with condoning killing animals for food. The result is both parties has found an excuse to continue with their own ignorance and attachments.
So compassion arises with the perception of a ‘suffering being’. And this does not have to come from hearing any cry, but one can see that like us, even an ant has volition and reacts with attachment to pleasant experiences and with aversion to unpleasant ones. The result of this is disinclination to harming any animal, not to speak of killing them for food. And if and when you see someone else killing some animal, you will act accordingly.
To decide to become a vegetarian however, this does not involve the perception of any suffering being, except in one’s own proliferated thoughts. One’s mind goes off into stories about someone else having killed the animal and that by not eating meat; one is indirectly stopping those people from killing in the future. This is being lost in the past and future as against understanding the truth now. Indeed it is just a game one plays with oneself one evidence of which is the fact that no attempt is ever made to educate those other people about the harm of killing. So really, all this is just about the “me” and its ideals.
What might also be noted is that rather than any real compassion towards the animal, it is in fact aversion or pity that we have, and this is why we end up usually having aversion towards those who kill, instead of kindness or compassion. Watching a YouTube video showing these acts by other people then becomes just more fuel for ego which thinks how good “I” am and how bad “they” are.
It takes discriminative wisdom to think correctly about such things.
Again this is very unhelpful, in fact misleading.
While thinking in terms of intentions, feelings, perception etc. is based on one’s own everyday experiences, aura and vibrations on the other hand are ideas we hear about and believe in, but which is and will remain only as abstractions. Talking about them as though they are real and form part of experience will therefore only lead to more ignorance instead of any understanding. Indeed it is because of the ignorance and attachment to such ideas that thoughts such as you express above and below come to be entertained.
Yes, Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar, *these* are the realities of our lives and this is what you should be talking in terms of and not choice of food!!
We can see for example, that lobh can arise towards any object at all. We can also see that when it does, the tendency to lobh increases. So really it is lobh towards the taste which is what we should note and not the food itself.
Do you think a vegetarian has less attachment to the taste of his food than a non-vegetarian? Of course not! In my experience I see equal fussiness if not more in a vegetarian with regard to what he gets to eat when compared to a meat eater. And while the latter can begin to see that indeed he is attached to food, what chance is there for the former to acknowledge his attachments when he is in fact blinded by the belief that in the very act of being a vegetarian, he is developing purity of mind? Very little, I’d think. Indeed the vegetarian is paving the way for ever more delusion given his mistaken sense of morality. And in expressing his ideas he is encouraging in the other person, what should not be considered while taking him further away from what should be given due consideration. And this is like the blind leading the blind, which is very bad karma indeed. (I point this out only to remind you, since you say that you do believe in karma.)
Sorry to disappoint, but this is nonsense.
Purity has nothing to do with our physical body and it has nothing to do with the food we eat. Purity of mind has to do with developing *mental* qualities such as kindness, giving, moral restraint, compassion, detachment and wisdom. If you believe that one becomes pure by virtue of what is eaten, then this must be the function of ignorance and wrong understanding and it is these that you get more and more of along with any lobh and ahankar that must necessarily also be involved.
You mean right now when there is lobh, it is permeating my body, and when I have krodh, the same also happens? And if I ate meat of a dead lion I’d become aggressive by virtue of meat more than any aversion that I have accumulated from the past? What if I ate the meat of an enlightened person who dies with equanimity, would that not make me receive the good qualities that formed part of his experiences? And if I receive the “bad” from meat because this came from a sentient being, how does eating a vegetable make me pure when plants are not sentient beings?
Do you see where all this is going?
The mistake is in your own appeal to such kind of experiences. It neither adds nor clarifies anything, but in fact muddles and misleads.
Killing can be humane, but this is because “humane or not” are values put forward by those who lack any understanding about morality. Wrong is wrong by virtue of the very nature of the mental state involved and not because it is placed against some arbitrary set of values. Killing is wrong period, because there can never be kindness or any other good quality involved in the act.
Eating on the other hand however, is motivated at most by attachment to taste. How is this morally wrong? How is eating meat in the the same category as killing, lying, stealing and adultery?
You may have not read the views that I’ve expressed in this matter, so I’ll repeat them here.
But we do need to send out a message that is in line with the truth. If we want to make a statement about the wrongness of killing, we should not bring eating and not eating meat into the picture, otherwise it confuses the issue. And when the other person hears this, he reacts by making a similar mistake of associating the morally neutral act of eating meat with condoning killing animals for food. The result is both parties has found an excuse to continue with their own ignorance and attachments.
So compassion arises with the perception of a ‘suffering being’. And this does not have to come from hearing any cry, but one can see that like us, even an ant has volition and reacts with attachment to pleasant experiences and with aversion to unpleasant ones. The result of this is disinclination to harming any animal, not to speak of killing them for food. And if and when you see someone else killing some animal, you will act accordingly.
To decide to become a vegetarian however, this does not involve the perception of any suffering being, except in one’s own proliferated thoughts. One’s mind goes off into stories about someone else having killed the animal and that by not eating meat; one is indirectly stopping those people from killing in the future. This is being lost in the past and future as against understanding the truth now. Indeed it is just a game one plays with oneself one evidence of which is the fact that no attempt is ever made to educate those other people about the harm of killing. So really, all this is just about the “me” and its ideals.
What might also be noted is that rather than any real compassion towards the animal, it is in fact aversion or pity that we have, and this is why we end up usually having aversion towards those who kill, instead of kindness or compassion. Watching a YouTube video showing these acts by other people then becomes just more fuel for ego which thinks how good “I” am and how bad “they” are.
It takes discriminative wisdom to think correctly about such things.
Again this is very unhelpful, in fact misleading.
While thinking in terms of intentions, feelings, perception etc. is based on one’s own everyday experiences, aura and vibrations on the other hand are ideas we hear about and believe in, but which is and will remain only as abstractions. Talking about them as though they are real and form part of experience will therefore only lead to more ignorance instead of any understanding. Indeed it is because of the ignorance and attachment to such ideas that thoughts such as you express above and below come to be entertained.
Yes, Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar, *these* are the realities of our lives and this is what you should be talking in terms of and not choice of food!!
We can see for example, that lobh can arise towards any object at all. We can also see that when it does, the tendency to lobh increases. So really it is lobh towards the taste which is what we should note and not the food itself.
Do you think a vegetarian has less attachment to the taste of his food than a non-vegetarian? Of course not! In my experience I see equal fussiness if not more in a vegetarian with regard to what he gets to eat when compared to a meat eater. And while the latter can begin to see that indeed he is attached to food, what chance is there for the former to acknowledge his attachments when he is in fact blinded by the belief that in the very act of being a vegetarian, he is developing purity of mind? Very little, I’d think. Indeed the vegetarian is paving the way for ever more delusion given his mistaken sense of morality. And in expressing his ideas he is encouraging in the other person, what should not be considered while taking him further away from what should be given due consideration. And this is like the blind leading the blind, which is very bad karma indeed. (I point this out only to remind you, since you say that you do believe in karma.)
Sorry to disappoint, but this is nonsense.
Purity has nothing to do with our physical body and it has nothing to do with the food we eat. Purity of mind has to do with developing *mental* qualities such as kindness, giving, moral restraint, compassion, detachment and wisdom. If you believe that one becomes pure by virtue of what is eaten, then this must be the function of ignorance and wrong understanding and it is these that you get more and more of along with any lobh and ahankar that must necessarily also be involved.
You mean right now when there is lobh, it is permeating my body, and when I have krodh, the same also happens? And if I ate meat of a dead lion I’d become aggressive by virtue of meat more than any aversion that I have accumulated from the past? What if I ate the meat of an enlightened person who dies with equanimity, would that not make me receive the good qualities that formed part of his experiences? And if I receive the “bad” from meat because this came from a sentient being, how does eating a vegetable make me pure when plants are not sentient beings?
Do you see where all this is going?
The mistake is in your own appeal to such kind of experiences. It neither adds nor clarifies anything, but in fact muddles and misleads.
Killing can be humane, but this is because “humane or not” are values put forward by those who lack any understanding about morality. Wrong is wrong by virtue of the very nature of the mental state involved and not because it is placed against some arbitrary set of values. Killing is wrong period, because there can never be kindness or any other good quality involved in the act.
Eating on the other hand however, is motivated at most by attachment to taste. How is this morally wrong? How is eating meat in the the same category as killing, lying, stealing and adultery?
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
- 8,194
- 54
snapExcellent post dear Confusedji, a pleasure to read, on that note I intend to eat nothing but rabbit for the next month, just in case it is possible to take on its attributes
Confused ji..
To me you are not at all "confused"..!! quite the opposite.
Thank you for the excellent posts...keep it up.
Satgur nanak pargitayah..Mitte DHUNDH jagg channan hoyah..when Guur nanak ji came..it was the DHUNDH ..FOG ..that dissipated....not "darkness" per se becasue Darkness CANNOT disappear...its just an absence of light...not soemthing by itself...but DHUNDH fog of ritualism, blindness of shrdha faith, etc etc as oppsoed to GYAAN..Light of Knowledge..in GURBANI is dissipated ...and thats what Satgur nanak ji accomplish by His arrival...and thats what we are trying to put forward here...but some like the FOG so much..they keep on manufacturing artificial Fog..something like what the Stage Admins manufacture during song/dance performances on Stage....well done as fog killer...:sippingcoffee:
To me you are not at all "confused"..!! quite the opposite.
Thank you for the excellent posts...keep it up.
Satgur nanak pargitayah..Mitte DHUNDH jagg channan hoyah..when Guur nanak ji came..it was the DHUNDH ..FOG ..that dissipated....not "darkness" per se becasue Darkness CANNOT disappear...its just an absence of light...not soemthing by itself...but DHUNDH fog of ritualism, blindness of shrdha faith, etc etc as oppsoed to GYAAN..Light of Knowledge..in GURBANI is dissipated ...and thats what Satgur nanak ji accomplish by His arrival...and thats what we are trying to put forward here...but some like the FOG so much..they keep on manufacturing artificial Fog..something like what the Stage Admins manufacture during song/dance performances on Stage....well done as fog killer...:sippingcoffee:
TigerStyleZ
SPNer
Uncle ji,
i know you are from a older generation and you were teached not to eat meat. The reasons why, I dont know, maybe you never asked why or replied to anyone. But the main point is you are talking like a uneducated muslim, who is talking superstitious and clueless( I Dont want offend any created animals who(can) consume flesh? This is a deep topic. )
Veerji
There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.
I did eat meat. I ate until about 20 years ago. When Babaji walked up to me and spoke to me saying I was eating the suffering of the animal
I stopped then.
Since then I had had divine experiences where animals talk to me telepathically.
It sounds unbelievable however there are many who communicate with animals.
AURA : You are misguided and misinformed :
The Moslems cover their women from head to feet in black clothing as it gives the man power and control over them.
Its nothing to do with the Aura.
The Aura is invisible to the normal eye
The human aura is the energy field that surrounds the physical body. It surrounds you in all directions. It is three dimensional. In a healthy individual, it makes an elliptical or egg shape about the body. Theauras of the masters extends outward from the body for several miles. It is often believed that this is one of the reasons they draw such large numbers of followers in any area where they travel. It is worth noting that a common depiction of many masters included the halo, a portion of the aura that is most easily seen by the average individual.
The aura is weakened by:
1. Poor diet
2. Lack of exercise
3. Lack of fresh air
4. Lack of rest
5. Stress
6. Alcohol
7. Drugs
8. Tobacco
9. Negative habits
10. Improper psychic activity
Another fact is Black clothing attracts negativity. Which is one reason why there is so much neagativity with people born out of mothers wearing totatly black as they have been seeped in negative vibrations.
All creation is Vibration
The sun gives off heat if we wear black we become hot.
If w wear light colour clothes we stay cool.
Negative vibration is therefore attracted much more to people wearing black attire.
Think about this rationaly then question me please
Black absorbs heat and vibration
Light colours repel.
Which is why our Gurus wore white and light colours this is more important at funerals and in hospitals
where much negative Entities float about.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thiing.
Knowledge earned by experience is important.
Many of us accept what is told to us without meditating or gaining insights into
whys and nos.
In God's services always
Forgive me if I have offended anyone by my writings
Amarjit
.
Thanks uncle ji, for reply . I dont feel offended in anyway. I am not a person who beliefs in something blindly, I make my researches and think about it where I can. I hope you arent offended in any way. I am open to everything, and I want to learn. I know I can learn from every person, and I want to learn from everyone!
But now back to the topic:
I don´t get why you are trying to twist my words, and I don´t get the message of your sentence here :
I Dont want offend any created animals who(can) consume flesh? This is a deep topic. )
I orgirnally wrote
I hope you see the point of what I am saying. Futhermore I want to say, WHY DID GOD created animals who(can) consume flesh? This is a deep topic
.... Anyway
God is in all in bad deeds and good deeds, so who are YOU to judge someone? He is the only one who can judge. How we can differ from bad deeds and good deeds? Yes, we use the god given logic. In this logicall site of my brain disagrees with what you said. Because there is no logic in for example. "Eat pure".
Great that Guru ji blessed you.
But if you can talk and listen to living things like animals, you even can hear the bacteria? What are they saying to you when you take a deep breath or drinkt some water, are they criyng? I really want to know what, for example, lions tell you Why they predate and eat meat.icecreammunda In a difficult situation they would kill and eat your flesh
And about Aura, I said : . But the main point is you are talking like a uneducated muslim, who is talking superstitious and clueless( I Dont want offend any muslim!!). Many Muslims argue that every person has an aura, thats why they cover their women.
I asked several muslims and Immahs and they don´t really had an answer and told me this. To avoid the real reason why they cover women. And we all know why they cover women... There is no instruction in the quran to cover the womens ... If you read the Quran you will get to know...
Read the suras:
7:26
24:31
24:60
33:59
Read these surahs , ji.
You forgot one point, medicine even disbalances the aura, so if you are ill , you can´t take any medicine or you will harm your aura, you will disbalance the energy field. It is like Scientology tells, take no medicine, the body will cure alone. It is all imagination.
So you are saying that a born black guy has no change to cure his aura? It is the physical apperance which bred weakness of aura? Wow thats very racist!
There are some other physical reasons why , black color is attrackting sun. This is a very sophisticated reason and I don´t want to discuss this now, you can make your own research. But it is logically explained by scinetists. Take some time if you want to know . I don´t say there isn´t an aura, but please think of that what i said.
I dont think i am misguided or misinformed. I am searching for truth and the way of akal purakh, so I don´t think I am misguided. But I listen to reason. kindly.
From my other post you can read, that I said you can only get knowledge by experience. So yes knoweledge is experienced. NO doubt.
Hope I don´t offended you in any way
WjK WjkF
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Tiger stylez wrote.."WHY DID GOD created animals who(can) consume flesh? This is a deep topic........
SGGS gives the answer..Jeean ka adhaar jeev........Living Animals (bodies) are are FOOD for other Living Animals (bodies)............and a Human Body is also a Living Body and it does become FOOD for other Living animals (when buried by the Billion Christians/Muslims etc) and when drowned in the seas, rivers, get lost in the jungles, air crashes etc etc etc..as is perfectly Natural law of the Creator.
SGGS gives the answer..Jeean ka adhaar jeev........Living Animals (bodies) are are FOOD for other Living Animals (bodies)............and a Human Body is also a Living Body and it does become FOOD for other Living animals (when buried by the Billion Christians/Muslims etc) and when drowned in the seas, rivers, get lost in the jungles, air crashes etc etc etc..as is perfectly Natural law of the Creator.
Excellent post dear Confusedji, a pleasure to read, on that note I intend to eat nothing but rabbit for the next month, just in case it is possible to take on its attributes
To be born on Mother earth is a birth even the Gods hunger for!
Its because here on Mother earth are all the temptations one has to face.
Every birth is a learning curve .
We before birth meet with our soul committee and decide what experiences, what tribulations we want to experience.
On birth this Soul contract is faded.
All the time in every birth we strive to be purer and purer and eventually merge with our Godhead.
This is enlightenment.
It may take many births to achieve this.
Many people throughout the world who have experienced awakening of inner concience have realized this too about our soul contracts.
Its like the Amrit or nectar of life
If one has not tasted it
How does one know the taste and the satnaam within it?
amarjit
Satnaam
Amarjit
we want to face.
TigerStyleZ
SPNer
Dear gyani ji,
my understanding of Siri Guru granth sahib ji on this point are same like yours. So thank you for your posting.
I hope I didnt offendend uncle amarjit singh ji, I know sometimes my sentences are bad couched
The only question which rises up is , Where is the border to Canibalism, if we consume meat? This needs to be solved. I myself try to eat less meat, because climate change, etc.. and I don´t really see the necessary in eating meat. But for Gur Sikhs it is open to eat or not, god has given us the decision.
my understanding of Siri Guru granth sahib ji on this point are same like yours. So thank you for your posting.
I hope I didnt offendend uncle amarjit singh ji, I know sometimes my sentences are bad couched
The only question which rises up is , Where is the border to Canibalism, if we consume meat? This needs to be solved. I myself try to eat less meat, because climate change, etc.. and I don´t really see the necessary in eating meat. But for Gur Sikhs it is open to eat or not, god has given us the decision.
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Archived_member14
SPNer
Gyani Jarnail Singh ji
Thank you very much.
There are times when there is disagreement. However I'd like it to be known that my intention is to correct any misunderstandings that is perceived and not to put anyone down. And you can be sure that "confused" I still remain. ;-) Expressing myself is part of what is called "straightening of view" and so in the end, I do it for myself if not anyone else.
On the point of rules and rituals, I think it is good to realize that unless we are enlightened, the tendency towards this exists in all of us, only we need to have wisdom arise to notice it. Expressions of this tendency comes in many shades and forms and what appears subtle to us now will as time passes impress as having been quite gross. Indeed much of what we manage to avoid is not really based on any real understanding, but more as a result of certain theories as to what constitutes rites and rituals.
Therefore the next time that we perceive others as being caught in ritualistic practice, let us remind ourselves that given just a slight change of circumstance, we'd likely be doing the same. The reason is that at the root of such practice is attachment to 'self' and desire for results.
Thank you very much.
There are times when there is disagreement. However I'd like it to be known that my intention is to correct any misunderstandings that is perceived and not to put anyone down. And you can be sure that "confused" I still remain. ;-) Expressing myself is part of what is called "straightening of view" and so in the end, I do it for myself if not anyone else.
On the point of rules and rituals, I think it is good to realize that unless we are enlightened, the tendency towards this exists in all of us, only we need to have wisdom arise to notice it. Expressions of this tendency comes in many shades and forms and what appears subtle to us now will as time passes impress as having been quite gross. Indeed much of what we manage to avoid is not really based on any real understanding, but more as a result of certain theories as to what constitutes rites and rituals.
Therefore the next time that we perceive others as being caught in ritualistic practice, let us remind ourselves that given just a slight change of circumstance, we'd likely be doing the same. The reason is that at the root of such practice is attachment to 'self' and desire for results.
Archived_member14
SPNer
Harry ji,
Thank you.
Immediately after I sent off my post I got up to ask my wife if she wanted me to cut the lamb leg she took out to cook for dinner. And I ended up that evening, overeating as always. ;-)
Excellent post dear Confusedji, a pleasure to read, on that note I intend to eat nothing but rabbit for the next month, just in case it is possible to take on its attributes
Thank you.
Immediately after I sent off my post I got up to ask my wife if she wanted me to cut the lamb leg she took out to cook for dinner. And I ended up that evening, overeating as always. ;-)
Archived_member14
SPNer
Amarjit ji,
You mean they hunger to be humans?
First, gods (with a small ‘g’) I refer to are not to be confused with those conceived of by the Hindus. They have no special powers, but like humans, generally go about their day to day existence motivated by desire for pleasure. Second, they surely do not have the form that we humans have, so let’s not take our own imaginations too seriously in this regard.
Would these gods hunger to be humans? I don’t think so. Ask an average human being where he would like to be and which country/ city he thinks is best and the answer will be, the one he is living in. Like us the gods would be motivated by not only desire for pleasure, which there is unlimited potential for, where they are, but also craving for existence. This means that they will not wish to leave what they already have. I say therefore that this idea about gods desiring human birth is nothing more than a projection by human beings.
What's with this romantic notion, “Mother earth”?
It is about human existence and not the concept of place we call “earth”. The advantage of human birth is in that it consists of results both good and bad. And given the great tendency to attachment all beings have, in a heavenly realm one would simply be swept by desire for the pleasant experiences and therefore the probability of waking up is minimal. So the potential for temptation is in fact far greater in heaven than here.
But really, why would a god who understands the concept of ‘awakening’ enough to see that it is possible as a human, think to change his circumstance? Would he not instead think to develop the understanding regardless of where he is? Would not the desire for a more favorable existence be exactly the stuff of the cycle of birth and death and antithesis to the idea of awakening / liberation?
For most it is creating the conditions for more strongly being caught in the cycle of existence. Birth as an animal is a situation in which the chance of rebirth as a human is exponentially lessened. As in the simile of the blind turtle swimming in the vast ocean and coming up to the surface every one hundred years. What are the chances that his head will come out through one floating tire in that ocean? Indeed I see that 99% of humans are in more or less similar situation, including you and myself. :-/
You mean it is not karma which conditions birth as this or that being?
What is your understanding about karma and why do you talk about morality?
One reason why some people end up dismissing karma is the apparent inconsistency of thought on the part of those who propose the idea. The reason why many Sikhs dismiss the Hindu notion of karma is because in observing their general behavior and practices, they see so much contradiction.
To talk about moral good and bad actions and their corresponding fruits, but often mistaking cause for results comes across as insincere. To say that what we receive is the result of what we sow but at the same time pray to different Gods for blessing shows lack of any real understanding about karma. To appeal to higher birth (caste) and claim moral superiority by virtue of this reflects no understanding with regard to what constitutes true objects of reverence and is hypocritical.
Karma *is* moral good and bad action, through body, speech or mind, but more precisely, it is “intention”. And we should not confuse the “cause” with results. Intention to good and bad actions are “cause”, the result of which are the pleasant and unpleasant experiences through the five senses or birth as this or that being.
The ideas such as “praying to the Gods for blessing” or that a “soul committee decides our fate” has therefore no place in the scheme of things. Having these ideas and trying to convince others about the reality of karma is therefore not going to bear any positive fruit either for oneself nor the other person. Given that karma is synonymous with moral good and bad actions, misunderstanding this can only lead to greater ignorance and decreased confidence in the value of goodness.
So you think that the situation about the blind turtle is not true?
As a human being with an interest in gaining knowledge and wisdom, I see that more than 90% of my volitional actions are the stuff of continued existence, bad ones at that. An animal has absolutely no clue as to what the truth is. In its case it is 100 % being swept by the waves of ignorance and craving.
This view that we are getting closer to enlightenment as time passes and with each new birth is a very foolish one. The picture is of a ball of string rolling across the floor which comes to its end by unwinding without the need for any special effort. This actually shows lack of confidence in karma and can lead to belief in moral inefficacy and therefore very dangerous to go by.
I am not surprised though why you appear to move in all directions. It is the case of a man lost in a dark jungle with no sense of direction, one moment going this and another that way and ending up going nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, but know that my intention is only to correct the misunderstanding that is perceived.
My impression is that you have absolutely no clue as to what enlightenment is about. Sorry.
You mean they hunger to be humans?
First, gods (with a small ‘g’) I refer to are not to be confused with those conceived of by the Hindus. They have no special powers, but like humans, generally go about their day to day existence motivated by desire for pleasure. Second, they surely do not have the form that we humans have, so let’s not take our own imaginations too seriously in this regard.
Would these gods hunger to be humans? I don’t think so. Ask an average human being where he would like to be and which country/ city he thinks is best and the answer will be, the one he is living in. Like us the gods would be motivated by not only desire for pleasure, which there is unlimited potential for, where they are, but also craving for existence. This means that they will not wish to leave what they already have. I say therefore that this idea about gods desiring human birth is nothing more than a projection by human beings.
What's with this romantic notion, “Mother earth”?
It is about human existence and not the concept of place we call “earth”. The advantage of human birth is in that it consists of results both good and bad. And given the great tendency to attachment all beings have, in a heavenly realm one would simply be swept by desire for the pleasant experiences and therefore the probability of waking up is minimal. So the potential for temptation is in fact far greater in heaven than here.
But really, why would a god who understands the concept of ‘awakening’ enough to see that it is possible as a human, think to change his circumstance? Would he not instead think to develop the understanding regardless of where he is? Would not the desire for a more favorable existence be exactly the stuff of the cycle of birth and death and antithesis to the idea of awakening / liberation?
.
For most it is creating the conditions for more strongly being caught in the cycle of existence. Birth as an animal is a situation in which the chance of rebirth as a human is exponentially lessened. As in the simile of the blind turtle swimming in the vast ocean and coming up to the surface every one hundred years. What are the chances that his head will come out through one floating tire in that ocean? Indeed I see that 99% of humans are in more or less similar situation, including you and myself. :-/
You mean it is not karma which conditions birth as this or that being?
What is your understanding about karma and why do you talk about morality?
One reason why some people end up dismissing karma is the apparent inconsistency of thought on the part of those who propose the idea. The reason why many Sikhs dismiss the Hindu notion of karma is because in observing their general behavior and practices, they see so much contradiction.
To talk about moral good and bad actions and their corresponding fruits, but often mistaking cause for results comes across as insincere. To say that what we receive is the result of what we sow but at the same time pray to different Gods for blessing shows lack of any real understanding about karma. To appeal to higher birth (caste) and claim moral superiority by virtue of this reflects no understanding with regard to what constitutes true objects of reverence and is hypocritical.
Karma *is* moral good and bad action, through body, speech or mind, but more precisely, it is “intention”. And we should not confuse the “cause” with results. Intention to good and bad actions are “cause”, the result of which are the pleasant and unpleasant experiences through the five senses or birth as this or that being.
The ideas such as “praying to the Gods for blessing” or that a “soul committee decides our fate” has therefore no place in the scheme of things. Having these ideas and trying to convince others about the reality of karma is therefore not going to bear any positive fruit either for oneself nor the other person. Given that karma is synonymous with moral good and bad actions, misunderstanding this can only lead to greater ignorance and decreased confidence in the value of goodness.
So you think that the situation about the blind turtle is not true?
As a human being with an interest in gaining knowledge and wisdom, I see that more than 90% of my volitional actions are the stuff of continued existence, bad ones at that. An animal has absolutely no clue as to what the truth is. In its case it is 100 % being swept by the waves of ignorance and craving.
This view that we are getting closer to enlightenment as time passes and with each new birth is a very foolish one. The picture is of a ball of string rolling across the floor which comes to its end by unwinding without the need for any special effort. This actually shows lack of confidence in karma and can lead to belief in moral inefficacy and therefore very dangerous to go by.
I am not surprised though why you appear to move in all directions. It is the case of a man lost in a dark jungle with no sense of direction, one moment going this and another that way and ending up going nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, but know that my intention is only to correct the misunderstanding that is perceived.
My impression is that you have absolutely no clue as to what enlightenment is about. Sorry.
BaljinderS
SPNer
- Dec 29, 2011
- 171
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Excellent veer ji!!! very well said... you don't seem to be confused to me :redturban:
- Jan 31, 2011
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Confusedji,
Reading your posts used to be extremely rewarding but sometimes extremely hard work, either my understanding in your concepts and theories has increased, or your writing has reached new heights, easy to read, easy to understand, excellent post Veer.
Reading your posts used to be extremely rewarding but sometimes extremely hard work, either my understanding in your concepts and theories has increased, or your writing has reached new heights, easy to read, easy to understand, excellent post Veer.
- Jan 31, 2011
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WOW!!, this may be the longest ongoing debate as it's nearly reached a 100 pages!!!!
I've been to frightened to read through all the posts as I'm afraid I may get even more confused and end up making the wrong decision!!!!!:grinningkaur:lol
BTW Has anyone mentioned Vitamin B12 deficiency?????
I heard that increased intake of B12 can reduce your brain from shrinking and minimize Alzheimers!!!
Perhaps, this could be the root of the reason for the long unconcluded argument!!!!
As maybe the increased intake with the meat eaters has resulted in them posessing much larger brains than their vegetarian colleagues!!!lol
I've been to frightened to read through all the posts as I'm afraid I may get even more confused and end up making the wrong decision!!!!!:grinningkaur:lol
BTW Has anyone mentioned Vitamin B12 deficiency?????
I heard that increased intake of B12 can reduce your brain from shrinking and minimize Alzheimers!!!
Perhaps, this could be the root of the reason for the long unconcluded argument!!!!
As maybe the increased intake with the meat eaters has resulted in them posessing much larger brains than their vegetarian colleagues!!!lol
Lucky singh Ji,
The INCREASED BRAIN SIZE is proven by scienists over past few hundred thousand years..so its a Fact.
Secondly you dont have to read all the 100 pages..just the ARTICLE has everything you need. The 100 pages are simply arguments being senselessly repeated over and over again...by the Vegetarian group insisting they are right. period. The non-vegies keep saying diet etc is NOT an importnat criteria in Sikhism..but.....???/teh water keeps on being churned...of course since its water..no butter is going to emerge even after 1000 pages...
The INCREASED BRAIN SIZE is proven by scienists over past few hundred thousand years..so its a Fact.
Secondly you dont have to read all the 100 pages..just the ARTICLE has everything you need. The 100 pages are simply arguments being senselessly repeated over and over again...by the Vegetarian group insisting they are right. period. The non-vegies keep saying diet etc is NOT an importnat criteria in Sikhism..but.....???/teh water keeps on being churned...of course since its water..no butter is going to emerge even after 1000 pages...
BaljinderS
SPNer
- Dec 29, 2011
- 171
- 251
This is going to sound rude and bitter truth for some. I think the people making this argument, have their loyalties and trust misplaced. They are not interested in what Gurbani says in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so technically their argument is outside of Sikhi.
Their trust is in the pakhandi baabe and other ideologies (propogated by various groups) which is misguided.
- Jan 31, 2011
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and judging by the thread today regarding the Sri Akal Takhat Sahib, We can now put them in that camp.
As a Sikh wishing to reconnect with his/her faith, I would have thought one of the first port of calls would be the SGPC. If this body is also happy to push forward the myth that good Sikhs should abstain from meat, I guess that makes us renegades!
If you have a problem, If no one else cam help, and if you can find them, call the SPN Team
All we need now is a black van with a big red Khanda full of Jhatka
Well, this ongoing debate keeps raising more and more questions.
I have read through many of the posts and checked the references quoted....(I thought that advanced physics was mind bogglingly tough)
....well, I can in all honesty say that prior to gaining this knowledge, I had the false misconception that meat is totally forbidden in sikhism like intoxicants.
Thanks to SPN, that the misty haze before my eyes has somewhat cleared up.
Although I had sometimes queried if it was just the ritualistically prepared (halal), and I'm sure that many more have done exactly this.
I don't wish to raise any more questions (as we will just keep going in circles), but I realise very clearly that there are many many people out there, especially here in the west that have the same misconceptions as I did.
I'm not trying to say- thank you for the non-veggie arguments, so that I can go enjoy a 12oz sirloin, or pull out those burger king coupons/vouchers that I threw in the trash.......No,no.. I'm not going to use the arguments as an excuse by any means. But the arguments containing comprehensive info and facts will help me conjure my own answer.
I realise it's more of a decision based on factors outside the scope of sikhism- correct me if I'm wrong..
...........This is the conclusion that I have come up with.....again, correct me if i'm wrong.
I think any corrections I will get are going to stem from personal viewpoints, which I now realise is the answer..( ie... here's the facts and info..- go make up your own mind).
Before I got into this topic, I had a simple definite answer.
After going through the information, my answer now is a big question mark!!!
My concern is how to get the many others to realise these misconceptions??
As we have seen from these posts since 2006 and nearly 100 pages, it can and will take a very very long time to get a correct justified answer (if one would ever exist)
Many of the posts have been well documented with relevant points.
Maybe if we just gave some simple, straightforward personal viewpoints without trying to justify ourselves it may give a more realistic perpective and approach.
ie. something like the voting polls we have, but without the last explanation option..
Waheguru
Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh
I have read through many of the posts and checked the references quoted....(I thought that advanced physics was mind bogglingly tough)
....well, I can in all honesty say that prior to gaining this knowledge, I had the false misconception that meat is totally forbidden in sikhism like intoxicants.
Thanks to SPN, that the misty haze before my eyes has somewhat cleared up.
Although I had sometimes queried if it was just the ritualistically prepared (halal), and I'm sure that many more have done exactly this.
I don't wish to raise any more questions (as we will just keep going in circles), but I realise very clearly that there are many many people out there, especially here in the west that have the same misconceptions as I did.
I'm not trying to say- thank you for the non-veggie arguments, so that I can go enjoy a 12oz sirloin, or pull out those burger king coupons/vouchers that I threw in the trash.......No,no.. I'm not going to use the arguments as an excuse by any means. But the arguments containing comprehensive info and facts will help me conjure my own answer.
I realise it's more of a decision based on factors outside the scope of sikhism- correct me if I'm wrong..
...........This is the conclusion that I have come up with.....again, correct me if i'm wrong.
I think any corrections I will get are going to stem from personal viewpoints, which I now realise is the answer..( ie... here's the facts and info..- go make up your own mind).
Before I got into this topic, I had a simple definite answer.
After going through the information, my answer now is a big question mark!!!
My concern is how to get the many others to realise these misconceptions??
As we have seen from these posts since 2006 and nearly 100 pages, it can and will take a very very long time to get a correct justified answer (if one would ever exist)
Many of the posts have been well documented with relevant points.
Maybe if we just gave some simple, straightforward personal viewpoints without trying to justify ourselves it may give a more realistic perpective and approach.
ie. something like the voting polls we have, but without the last explanation option..
Waheguru
Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh
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