Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[findingmyway]

Fascinating, that you are talking about this today. I was having a discussion today and he informs me, that vegetarianism (lacto-veg) was used as a form of control by Brahmisns over the nasses. Apparently so the argument goes, being vege makes you less aggresive and therefore more prone to suggestions and controls.

Anyone else heard this?

This is the same argument used for banning the use of onion and garlic. Apparently they stimulate a person to be more angry and aggressive!

Panjabi food without onion....yuck!!

 

[kds1980]

Correct.

The major paths of Hinduism are Vaisnavism (Vegetarian and the majority), Shivitism (some veg some non veg and next biggest), Shaktism (non-veg and smallest sect).

Fascinating, that you are talking about this today. I was having a discussion today and he informs me, that vegetarianism (lacto-veg) was used as a form of control by Brahmisns over the nasses. Apparently so the argument goes, being vege makes you less aggresive and therefore more prone to suggestions and controls.

Anyone else heard this?

Well It is known fact that animal sacrifice was part of ancient Hindu Religion
but later own they borrowed vegetarianism from Budhism and Jainism ,and Brahmins started feeling superior though kshatriya were always allowed to Hunt and Eat meat.

As far meat making you aggressive is concerned ,well One can say about it.
The golden age of hinduism was when they use to eat meat and Hindu kings like asoka were very powerful,similarly muslims and christians were quite powerful and aggressive.On the other hand vegetarian Budhist ,Jains or even later hindu's were never known for their martial skills

 

[findingmyway]

As far meat making you aggressive is concerned ,well One can say about it.
The golden age of hinduism was when they use to eat meat and Hindu kings like asoka were very powerful,similarly muslims and christians were quite powerful and aggressive.On the other hand vegetarian Budhist ,Jains or even later hindu's were never known for their martial skills

Vegetarianism is most likely a result rather than a cause of this. Warriors will be less squeamish and not think twice about killing animals for food. Peace lovers on the other hand wouldn't want to do the killing themself, especially if the animal was raised by them.

Most animal rights activists are vegetarian and they are often very violent!

 

[findingmyway]

The reference to the past also begs another question. There was 1 group of people (I forget who exactly) that didn't want to harm anything even by mistake. They would walk around with cloths round their mouths so they didn't accidentally swallow airborne bugs that were alive. They would only eat fruit that dropped to the floor naturally. I think we'll agree that this all seems extreme but how far can you take things? By only restricting what we can eat by what our senses can tell is hurt seems very egotistical. Gurbani singles humans out from other life forms due to consciousness not due to our senses. Our senses are actually quite weak compared to other animals so just because we can't detect a plant experiencing pain doesn't mean that it doesn't. It also has life so why discriminate against it!

 

[kds1980]

Vegetarianism is most likely a result rather than a cause of this. Warriors will be less squeamish and not think twice about killing animals for food. Peace lovers on the other hand wouldn't want to do the killing themself, especially if the animal was raised by them.

Most animal rights activists are vegetarian and they are often very violent!

Let me add some points,

Vegetarianism or being Vegan is ne phenomina in west.How many Animal right
activists who are vegetarian are vegetarian from Birth.There is very good chance that mostly were raised as non veg

2) When soemone says that meat eating makes you aggressive or vegetarian food makes you less aggressive then it does not mean By eating meat you will automatically become agressive or by becoming vegetarian you will become saint and all your aggression will be gone.We always have to take average for example If we compare Jains with muslims then we will find that muslims are more aggressive than Jains but then it does not mean That No Jain could be aggressive or all muslims have voilent temprament

 

[findingmyway]

2) When soemone says that meat eating makes you aggressive or vegetarian food makes you less aggressive then it does not mean By eating meat you will automatically become agressive or by becoming vegetarian you will become saint and all your aggression will be gone.We always have to take average for example If we compare Jains with muslims then we will find that muslims are more aggressive than Jains but then it does not mean That No Jain could be aggressive or all muslims have voilent temprament

Actually again diet is the effect rather than cause. Different personality types will be attracted to different paths. Peaceful personality types will be attracted to peace loving religions and vegetarianism and fearless types will be attracted to the opposite. Upbringing impacts on personality types therefore the relationship is not directly related. The real test would be to see if people change personalities when they change diets and I don't see this happening unless there is a big event causing the change. Therefore, diet is not the cause of change in personality-the event is. Gurbani encourages us to control our minds, diet therefore does not play in this. I'm sure I read more about this in a previous thread but cannot find it right now. If your theory holds true then there should be alot more anger in the world as according to Hindu theory onion and garlic also causes these problems and most of the world eats onion and garlic in abundance!

Vegetarianism or being Vegan is ne phenomina in west.How many Animal right
activists who are vegetarian are vegetarian from Birth.There is very good chance that mostly were raised as non veg

Not at all, vegetarianism has been around here for a few generations. Enough that many veggies are born here!

 

[findingmyway]

Page 426

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਵਸਿ ਆਵੈ ॥How can this mind come under control?
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਠਾਕੀਐ ਗਿਆਨ ਮਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਆਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥By Guru's Grace, it is held in check; instructed in spiritual wisdom, it returns to its home. ||1||Pause||

No reference to food in the other tuks about controlling mind either

 

[kds1980]

I'm sure I read more about this in a previous thread but cannot find it right now. If your theory holds true then there should be alot more anger in the world as according to Hindu theory onion and garlic also causes these problems and most of the world eats onion and garlic in abundance!

According to theory of Ayurveda Onion and Garlic are considered as Rajsic/Tamsic food and these type of food increase sexual desire,That is why many Hindu's avoid onion and Garlic.

 

[findingmyway]

According to theory of Ayurveda Onion and Garlic are considered as Rajsic/Tamsic food and these type of food increase sexual desire,That is why many Hindu's avoid onion and Garlic.

Exactly, this is a Hindu concept and has no relevance in Sikhism. Please see Gurbani tuk posted above and http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/29251-how-control-mind-beautiful-camel-like.html

 

[kds1980]

Exactly, this is a Hindu concept and has no relevance in Sikhism. Please see Gurbani tuk posted above and http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/29251-how-control-mind-beautiful-camel-like.html

Well I don't think we should brand Ayurveda as Hindu,just Like Unani is not muslim.but I do agree that we should not mix food with sikhism.Whether these type of foods have negative or positive effect is different subject
and One should eat what suits him/her

 

[spnadmin]

As a point of information only. Aryuveda does have its origin in ancient Sanskrit scriptures, particularly the Artharaveda, but also its principles and practice that are said to be described in later books. It goes back to around 2000 to 1500 BC. Its founder is considered to be Dhavanatari who received his instructions from the brahm. Whether it is Hindu or not depends on when one starts the count for Hinduism as a religion distinct from earlier vedic practices. The best way to describe it is "traditional Indian" as the practice of Aryuveda cuts across many Indian religions, including the Jain. Looking at this from a western vantage point, the Jains are more associated with Aryuveda more than others, but perhaps this is so only because they have spread this ancient tradition actively in the west.

Onions are said to stimulate aggression and anger. Garlic also. This is the first I have heard they stimulate sexuality. But will check as my sister is an aryuvedic practitioner.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Who stole my fillet Mignon topped with roasted onions and garlic?

 

[spnadmin]

Sounds like your doshas are letting you down veer ji.

 

[Shanger]

I have read the article in the first post, I think it is great.

I have a few questions regarding verses which were not included, please address, as I cannot read punjabi/gurmukhi


1]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=1103

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher?"


2]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=723

"The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell."


3]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=483

"You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word?"


thanks

 

[Shanger]

I've just realised after posting that this thread is 66 pages, I guess I'm going to have to read through to see if what I mentioned has been discussed, if it has and anyone wants to answer again please do.

 

[findingmyway]

I've just realised after posting that this thread is 66 pages, I guess I'm going to have to read through to see if what I mentioned has been discussed, if it has and anyone wants to answer again please do.

Your questions have been answered more fully earlier in the thread. Quickly, you need to look at the shabads as a whole and take into account the history of the times. The shabads are primarily a comment on greed and hypocrisy. Read through the thread to get fuller answers

 

[Randip Singh]

The reference to the past also begs another question. There was 1 group of people (I forget who exactly) that didn't want to harm anything even by mistake. They would walk around with cloths round their mouths so they didn't accidentally swallow airborne bugs that were alive. They would only eat fruit that dropped to the floor naturally. I think we'll agree that this all seems extreme but how far can you take things? By only restricting what we can eat by what our senses can tell is hurt seems very egotistical. Gurbani singles humans out from other life forms due to consciousness not due to our senses. Our senses are actually quite weak compared to other animals so just because we can't detect a plant experiencing pain doesn't mean that it doesn't. It also has life so why discriminate against it!

Jains do that.

 

[Randip Singh]

I have read the article in the first post, I think it is great.

I have a few questions regarding verses which were not included, please address, as I cannot read punjabi/gurmukhi


1]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=1103

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher?"


2]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=723

"The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell."


3]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=483

"You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word?"


thanks

All these are addressed here:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

These Shabads are always misquoted by Sikhs with Vashnavite tenancies.

 

[Randip Singh]

Let me add some points,

Vegetarianism or being Vegan is ne phenomina in west.How many Animal right
activists who are vegetarian are vegetarian from Birth.There is very good chance that mostly were raised as non veg

2) When soemone says that meat eating makes you aggressive or vegetarian food makes you less aggressive then it does not mean By eating meat you will automatically become agressive or by becoming vegetarian you will become saint and all your aggression will be gone.We always have to take average for example If we compare Jains with muslims then we will find that muslims are more aggressive than Jains but then it does not mean That No Jain could be aggressive or all muslims have voilent temprament

Note

Vegetarians in the West eat eggs

Vegans do not! They do not even drink animal milk.

 

[Shanger]

Ok I have read through the whole thread, and here was my post of questions-

I have read the article in the first post, I think it is great.

I have a few questions regarding verses which were not included, please address, as I cannot read punjabi/gurmukhi


1]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=1103

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher?"


2]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=723

"The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell."


3]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=483

"You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word?"


thanks

Am I right in saying that

quote 2-
"Ḏunīʼn▫ā murḏār kẖurḏanī gāfal havā▫e. Rahā▫o.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

Gaibān haivān harām kusṯanī murḏār bakẖorā▫e.
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat. "

murdar = corpse/dead body
haram = the "forbidden corpse"

= the world eats humans (metaphor?) + like a beast they eat meat killed in a ritualistic manner?

is that correct?

with regards to the first quote
"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher?"

i saw this quote was discussed, but all that was said was that it was taken out of context from the entire verse, but i still don't understand how?


quote 3-
Rojā ḏẖarai manāvai alhu su▫āḏaṯ jī▫a sangẖārai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

Āpā ḏekẖ avar nahī ḏekẖai kāhe ka▫o jẖakẖ mārai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||

= you keep your fasts to please allah, while you murder other creatures for pleasure?

i dont see how that can just be referrin to ritualistic/sacrificed meat?

unless you say that pleasure does not include for the purpose of eating?