Sects Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth And The Radha Soami
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Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
Dalbirk ji, I have had a chance to read through your most recent post to Jatt Khehra ji.
It was very informative for me, and it is a convincing case to Sikhs, but will not convince RSSB followers. It is based on your beliefs. The same applies when anybody argues their case from their own perspective alone and uses their own scriptures, or leaders' utterances. This failure to look at issues as if one is in the other persons shoes, is the problem that leads to RSSB or their deras/sects being admonished by Sikhs. Deras generally do not see Sikhs as threats, save for possible violence coming from a few individuals, but Sikhs do see deras as threats, in terms of sikhs being poached by deras. Sikhs see their own subset adherents such as mona-sikhs, as not up to the task, as well. Some are quite unable to see religion from others viewpoints.
This is not unique attitude of Sikhs - Hindu, Christian and Islamic fundamentalists are similar when it comes to treatment of people of other faiths. They just see others as incorrect, or misguided, and sometimes take action to correct them.
Various arguments you put forward are generally not compassionate or tolerant of other faiths. No-one will listen to you if you argue their Guru, living or otherwise, is an imposter, or is dishonourable, or that the practices they engage in are pointless.
All religions and related practises can all be productive concurrently, to those who have full faith in the practices, and it is better for all if people recognise this instead of claiming their own particular methodology to be superior, or others techinques or standards to be indequate, inferior, false, illogical or untenable.
On the one hand you say bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is worshipping of Bani, and therefore not the same as worshipping a stone idol, but you have not considered what benefit a person who has full faith in worship of a stone derives. Only the person who has such faith knows this. Such a person may think the same of you bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, if you malign their faith.
The only way others will learn from you, and possibly follow your example, is if you simply do what you profess, whilst also considering others actions from their point of view. Admonishing people's practises does not win their favour. It can also actually disaffect some of the people who are currently alongside you as well, as they get turned off religion altogether, until there is a rainy day, or they need a blessing or two.
Sat Sri Akal
Himmat Singh
Dalbirk ji, I have had a chance to read through your most recent post to Jatt Khehra ji.
It was very informative for me, and it is a convincing case to Sikhs, but will not convince RSSB followers. It is based on your beliefs. The same applies when anybody argues their case from their own perspective alone and uses their own scriptures, or leaders' utterances. This failure to look at issues as if one is in the other persons shoes, is the problem that leads to RSSB or their deras/sects being admonished by Sikhs. Deras generally do not see Sikhs as threats, save for possible violence coming from a few individuals, but Sikhs do see deras as threats, in terms of sikhs being poached by deras. Sikhs see their own subset adherents such as mona-sikhs, as not up to the task, as well. Some are quite unable to see religion from others viewpoints.
This is not unique attitude of Sikhs - Hindu, Christian and Islamic fundamentalists are similar when it comes to treatment of people of other faiths. They just see others as incorrect, or misguided, and sometimes take action to correct them.
Various arguments you put forward are generally not compassionate or tolerant of other faiths. No-one will listen to you if you argue their Guru, living or otherwise, is an imposter, or is dishonourable, or that the practices they engage in are pointless.
All religions and related practises can all be productive concurrently, to those who have full faith in the practices, and it is better for all if people recognise this instead of claiming their own particular methodology to be superior, or others techinques or standards to be indequate, inferior, false, illogical or untenable.
On the one hand you say bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is worshipping of Bani, and therefore not the same as worshipping a stone idol, but you have not considered what benefit a person who has full faith in worship of a stone derives. Only the person who has such faith knows this. Such a person may think the same of you bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, if you malign their faith.
The only way others will learn from you, and possibly follow your example, is if you simply do what you profess, whilst also considering others actions from their point of view. Admonishing people's practises does not win their favour. It can also actually disaffect some of the people who are currently alongside you as well, as they get turned off religion altogether, until there is a rainy day, or they need a blessing or two.
Sat Sri Akal
Himmat Singh
Himmat Singh Ji ,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts . Actually my language is quite rude if I put it bluntly . But if you read some of the posts of Jatt Khehra ( paramjit ) Ji it contains so much derogatory words for SGGS as well as Sikhs in general that the language changed for the worse . However if we wish to counter something we have to say it forcefully somewhat . My ideas are meant to give a jolt to the follower of Dehdhari Guru who is actually a blind follower . I am not for agreeing him to my view because he never will , blissfully ignorant of the CONCEPT OF SHABAD GURU brainwashed by the Dehdharis . However coming on SPN & abusing SGGS & Sikhs is simple challenging Sikhs to come to the ring , which makes it tough to take things lying down .
Thanks for sharing your thoughts . Actually my language is quite rude if I put it bluntly . But if you read some of the posts of Jatt Khehra ( paramjit ) Ji it contains so much derogatory words for SGGS as well as Sikhs in general that the language changed for the worse . However if we wish to counter something we have to say it forcefully somewhat . My ideas are meant to give a jolt to the follower of Dehdhari Guru who is actually a blind follower . I am not for agreeing him to my view because he never will , blissfully ignorant of the CONCEPT OF SHABAD GURU brainwashed by the Dehdharis . However coming on SPN & abusing SGGS & Sikhs is simple challenging Sikhs to come to the ring , which makes it tough to take things lying down .
- Sep 26, 2010
- 20
- 2
- 49
Respected Dalberk ji,
All my posts are on this site all the time Will you please point Out the text which shows disrespect to Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Deletion - please debate issues not personalities.
EVEN NOT U CAN.
with my humble request please Understand.
Paramjit SINGH:redturban:
All my posts are on this site all the time Will you please point Out the text which shows disrespect to Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Deletion - please debate issues not personalities.
EVEN NOT U CAN.
with my humble request please Understand.
Paramjit SINGH:redturban:
jatt_khehra ji
Permit me to take you through the thoughts of one who is moderating this thread, and perhaps give some insight into your question to forum moderator dalbirk ji
Below is the very first post in this thread. It sets the stage for what the discussion is about. Of course over time various members respond to this and that and the discussion twists and turns. And of course we do not have to follow a strict line of discussion. Twists and turns are often helpful. So lets start with the quote below:
Now the original title for this thread was "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth." Forum mentor Gyani ji all the way back at the beginning of the discussion noted the original title is misleading. It creates the impression that ... Hukam Hi Guru Manyo Granth is debatable. It is not debatable. A thread about the Radaswami should not put the Sikh members of the forum on the defensive.
Instead of discussing the beliefs of the Radawami panth, we find ourselves having to defend the Guru Granth as the everlasting Guru. And we find ourselves having to argue about the hukam of "Sab Sikhan ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" in favor of a human guru. And all this in spite of the fact that in Sikhi there is only one Guru and this Guru is not human -- for reasons that are so basic that they define Sikhism itself.
Therefore, people become very frustrated. SPN is after all a Sikh forum and its Sikh membership should not have to become defensive or argue about a basic belief. Sikhs should not have to argue over and over that ikonkaar is the essence of Sikhism.
One could ask, Why do Radaswami have to be defensive? Why do they have to defend their point of view? Is that fair? And my answer is, Yes it is fair because we did not come here to debate our beliefs. Rather, you came here to explain your beliefs. So please explain them without calling into question the basics of Sikhi.
And I hope members of other faiths also take note of my comments.
Permit me to take you through the thoughts of one who is moderating this thread, and perhaps give some insight into your question to forum moderator dalbirk ji
Below is the very first post in this thread. It sets the stage for what the discussion is about. Of course over time various members respond to this and that and the discussion twists and turns. And of course we do not have to follow a strict line of discussion. Twists and turns are often helpful. So lets start with the quote below:
Now the original title for this thread was "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth." Forum mentor Gyani ji all the way back at the beginning of the discussion noted the original title is misleading. It creates the impression that ... Hukam Hi Guru Manyo Granth is debatable. It is not debatable. A thread about the Radaswami should not put the Sikh members of the forum on the defensive.
Instead of discussing the beliefs of the Radawami panth, we find ourselves having to defend the Guru Granth as the everlasting Guru. And we find ourselves having to argue about the hukam of "Sab Sikhan ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" in favor of a human guru. And all this in spite of the fact that in Sikhi there is only one Guru and this Guru is not human -- for reasons that are so basic that they define Sikhism itself.
Therefore, people become very frustrated. SPN is after all a Sikh forum and its Sikh membership should not have to become defensive or argue about a basic belief. Sikhs should not have to argue over and over that ikonkaar is the essence of Sikhism.
One could ask, Why do Radaswami have to be defensive? Why do they have to defend their point of view? Is that fair? And my answer is, Yes it is fair because we did not come here to debate our beliefs. Rather, you came here to explain your beliefs. So please explain them without calling into question the basics of Sikhi.
And I hope members of other faiths also take note of my comments.
jatt_kehra ji
Would you kindly react to these 2 issues raised by forum member Seeker9 ji?
Thank you
Would you kindly react to these 2 issues raised by forum member Seeker9 ji?
Thank you
Jatt_Khera ji
You have another opportunity to debate the issues. I have repeated my request. By re-posting what has been deleted, or posting the same objections over 3 times, you are essentially spamming. This can lead to being banned from the forum. Let's get back on track.
Thank you.
Here are the issues again:
You have another opportunity to debate the issues. I have repeated my request. By re-posting what has been deleted, or posting the same objections over 3 times, you are essentially spamming. This can lead to being banned from the forum. Let's get back on track.
Thank you.
Here are the issues again:
Re: "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" and the Roadhaswami
So in this post you are mentioning that a Dehdhari Guru (a complete Guru) is required to teach the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib & Sri Guru Granth Sahib was also written by Dehdharis which implies two things IMHO
1. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not a complete Guru .
2. That the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh " Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai , Guru Manyo Granth " is not in tune with reality & that a book can never be a Guru . Word can never be a Guru .
I give you following examples:
1. The real thing is the Gurbani ( knowledge ) as contained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib just as water is in the pitcher , here water is the WORD ( Gurbani ) contained in body & the pitcher is that body . The water ( Gurbani ) is required to quench that thirst , pitcher bereft of water is of no use to us.
2. All Sikh scholars like Sant Singh Maskeen Ji , Giani Pinderpal Singh Ji , Bhai Veer Singh , Principal Ganga Singh , Prof Sahib Singh ji etc etc or in history Bhai Gurdass Ji , Baba Budha Ji , Baba Deep Singh , Bhai Mani Singh , Bhai Nand Lal Ji were/are great Gurmukhs who IMHO were far above any of the RS Gurus as far as enlightenment goes . But none of them never ever had any doubts regarding the autenticity of the CONCEPT OF SHABAD GURU , never ever they projected themselves as the living Gurus .
3. A husband of an illetrate woman goes to a foreign country from there he sends her a letter in which it is written MY DEAR WIFE etc . The woman asks an educated person to read out that letter , if that educated person reading that letter starts to think that woman is his own wife then it is his mistake . It is actually not the reality .
The Dehdhari Gurus ( all not just RS Gurus ) quote extensively from Gurbani specifying the need for Guru , the importance of Guru & then taking a U turn suddenly ask you to accept THEM as the Gurus . The Guru is not the one who is quoting but that knowledge itself which was achieved by all Gurus as well as Bhagats , enlightened beings who got that knowledge when they were merged with Lord God ( became one with God ) while living only . The writings of those enlightened souls were included whose life also matched with those teachings many persons with a similar standard of writing like Peelu , Shah Hussain & many others were rejected because their lives did not match to what they preached . Please read my earlier long post to get yourself aquainted with the Concept of SHABAD GURU ( knowledge as teacher ) . Sri Guru Granth Sahib is such a revealed scripture that with little effort the stream of enlightment starts flowing & everything becomes crystal clear . The best tool to understand Gurbani today IMHO is Guru Granth Darpan written by Prof Sahib Singh Ji . The Dehdhari Gurus ( all no exceptions ) are themselves a slave of five theives ( Kaam , Krodh , Lobh , Moh , Ahankaar ) . Who knows under their influence where they will lead you to ? All are master business tycoons selling their wares ( Sangat Database ) to their buyers ( political parties ) & exploiting Sangat in all sorts of ways .
http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=257&p=2378&hilit=beas#p2378
ECONOMICS OF THE DERAS:
I wish to clear some plain facts about the mushrooming growth of Deras especially in Punjab . The mother of this is elecoral politics . It is a known fact that in Indian elections votes r sold at a price to political parties , however the exact modus operandi is unclear to many . This is how it works :
There r following political elections held in all states but rates mentioned r specific to Punjab only ;
1. Panchayat Elections , Rate per vote is 5000- 7000 Indian rupees for election of Panches , a furthur expense of 1000/ per vote is incurred to buy Panches for election of the Sarpanch .
2. Block Samiti Elections : Rate per vote is 1000-2000 , liquor bottles , Poppy husk & few hundreds rupees do the trick
3. Muncipal Committee Elections : Rate is again 1000 - 2000 per vote , same means r used for distribution
4. Muncipal Corporation Elections ( For Big Cities ) : Rate is 2000-2500 per vote for electing councillors , a furthur expense of 500 is made for electing Mayor.
5. Lok Sabha Elections : Rate is 1000-2000 per vote.
6 . Assembly Elections : This is the mother of all elections . Rate is 6000- 8000 per vote , moreover the winner takes the all important Chief Minister Ship chair . So in total a vote costs ( Earns ) Rs 16,000 - 25000 ( 400 USD to 625 USD ) in all 5 years.
All the Deras, all they have to do is to invite some political leader to some big SATSANG & that political leader pays his RESPECTS to Dera Chief in front of DEVOTEES. The leader gets the unusual big crowd, the public gets to see the amount of CLOUT OF BABAJI & to top it all the BABAJI gets his DUE SHARE proportionately. Each vote multiplied by 16,000 to 25,000 Rupees. This BOOTY is in the form of CASH & KIND like land allotment, posting of police officers teachers, health workers, transfers of various officials to PLUM places.
Some months back Radha Soami Satsang Beas came to light when they GRABBED a prime real eastate land in Mohali worth about 2800 - 3,000 Crores (700 Million USD) in Mohali for peanuts. The ruckus in press & media forced them to forego 50% of that land. Still they got to keep land worth 350 Million US Dollars. The Sacha Sauda DeraChief had his Brother In Law (Harminder Singh Jassi) a Congress Ticket from Bhatinda superseding Surinder Singla & a promise of withdrawl of CBI enquiry against him various cases of rape, Murdur etc.
In 2002 Sonia Gandhi visited RSS Beas just before elections at Beas headquarter & spent a full day there to inagaurate an EYE DONATION CAMP alonwith Natwar Singh , Amarinder Singh , Murli Deora among others. On 30th March, 2008, LK Advani visited Maharaj Gurinder Singh, Dera head at RSS, Beas. According to known eyewitnesses , the Baba saluted Advani while greeting him . The Akais r also playing this game of FAITH & POLITICS albiet differently . The so called Panthic Party SAD ( Badal ) has a SECULAR CONSTITUTION under which it fights SGPC elections.
It treats Sikh votes under the influence of Gurudwaras as a free BONUS VOTE , Ghar di murgi dal barabar . But spends the same rate to get votes from Deras as Congress or now new player in the game BJP . As aresult Deras r wooed by all parties & Deras r rolling in money but traditional Sikh Voter is left high & dry . Gurudwaras get nothing in return , SGPC budget is spent on election rallies & horse trading of SAD ( Badal ) . The preaching of Sikhism is left to Non- Government institutions like Sikh Missionary College , Ludhiana & Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle , Ludhiana . They r not at all helped by Akalis or SGPC financially ., rather hurdles r put in their way .
Gurudwaras r controlled by Jats , Dalits r discriminated against in villages . As a result nobody is willing to take the issues of Sikhs , Dera supporters r active in almost every sphere be it Panchayats , Corporations .Some serious introspection is required for revival of Sikhism & slow down this Mushrooming Deras in Punjab )"
This is not a personality attack if this is according to you then I promise that it will be the last one . From now onwards we shall discuss the topic only .
So in this post you are mentioning that a Dehdhari Guru (a complete Guru) is required to teach the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib & Sri Guru Granth Sahib was also written by Dehdharis which implies two things IMHO
1. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not a complete Guru .
2. That the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh " Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai , Guru Manyo Granth " is not in tune with reality & that a book can never be a Guru . Word can never be a Guru .
I give you following examples:
1. The real thing is the Gurbani ( knowledge ) as contained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib just as water is in the pitcher , here water is the WORD ( Gurbani ) contained in body & the pitcher is that body . The water ( Gurbani ) is required to quench that thirst , pitcher bereft of water is of no use to us.
2. All Sikh scholars like Sant Singh Maskeen Ji , Giani Pinderpal Singh Ji , Bhai Veer Singh , Principal Ganga Singh , Prof Sahib Singh ji etc etc or in history Bhai Gurdass Ji , Baba Budha Ji , Baba Deep Singh , Bhai Mani Singh , Bhai Nand Lal Ji were/are great Gurmukhs who IMHO were far above any of the RS Gurus as far as enlightenment goes . But none of them never ever had any doubts regarding the autenticity of the CONCEPT OF SHABAD GURU , never ever they projected themselves as the living Gurus .
3. A husband of an illetrate woman goes to a foreign country from there he sends her a letter in which it is written MY DEAR WIFE etc . The woman asks an educated person to read out that letter , if that educated person reading that letter starts to think that woman is his own wife then it is his mistake . It is actually not the reality .
The Dehdhari Gurus ( all not just RS Gurus ) quote extensively from Gurbani specifying the need for Guru , the importance of Guru & then taking a U turn suddenly ask you to accept THEM as the Gurus . The Guru is not the one who is quoting but that knowledge itself which was achieved by all Gurus as well as Bhagats , enlightened beings who got that knowledge when they were merged with Lord God ( became one with God ) while living only . The writings of those enlightened souls were included whose life also matched with those teachings many persons with a similar standard of writing like Peelu , Shah Hussain & many others were rejected because their lives did not match to what they preached . Please read my earlier long post to get yourself aquainted with the Concept of SHABAD GURU ( knowledge as teacher ) . Sri Guru Granth Sahib is such a revealed scripture that with little effort the stream of enlightment starts flowing & everything becomes crystal clear . The best tool to understand Gurbani today IMHO is Guru Granth Darpan written by Prof Sahib Singh Ji . The Dehdhari Gurus ( all no exceptions ) are themselves a slave of five theives ( Kaam , Krodh , Lobh , Moh , Ahankaar ) . Who knows under their influence where they will lead you to ? All are master business tycoons selling their wares ( Sangat Database ) to their buyers ( political parties ) & exploiting Sangat in all sorts of ways .
http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=257&p=2378&hilit=beas#p2378
ECONOMICS OF THE DERAS:
I wish to clear some plain facts about the mushrooming growth of Deras especially in Punjab . The mother of this is elecoral politics . It is a known fact that in Indian elections votes r sold at a price to political parties , however the exact modus operandi is unclear to many . This is how it works :
There r following political elections held in all states but rates mentioned r specific to Punjab only ;
1. Panchayat Elections , Rate per vote is 5000- 7000 Indian rupees for election of Panches , a furthur expense of 1000/ per vote is incurred to buy Panches for election of the Sarpanch .
2. Block Samiti Elections : Rate per vote is 1000-2000 , liquor bottles , Poppy husk & few hundreds rupees do the trick
3. Muncipal Committee Elections : Rate is again 1000 - 2000 per vote , same means r used for distribution
4. Muncipal Corporation Elections ( For Big Cities ) : Rate is 2000-2500 per vote for electing councillors , a furthur expense of 500 is made for electing Mayor.
5. Lok Sabha Elections : Rate is 1000-2000 per vote.
6 . Assembly Elections : This is the mother of all elections . Rate is 6000- 8000 per vote , moreover the winner takes the all important Chief Minister Ship chair . So in total a vote costs ( Earns ) Rs 16,000 - 25000 ( 400 USD to 625 USD ) in all 5 years.
All the Deras, all they have to do is to invite some political leader to some big SATSANG & that political leader pays his RESPECTS to Dera Chief in front of DEVOTEES. The leader gets the unusual big crowd, the public gets to see the amount of CLOUT OF BABAJI & to top it all the BABAJI gets his DUE SHARE proportionately. Each vote multiplied by 16,000 to 25,000 Rupees. This BOOTY is in the form of CASH & KIND like land allotment, posting of police officers teachers, health workers, transfers of various officials to PLUM places.
Some months back Radha Soami Satsang Beas came to light when they GRABBED a prime real eastate land in Mohali worth about 2800 - 3,000 Crores (700 Million USD) in Mohali for peanuts. The ruckus in press & media forced them to forego 50% of that land. Still they got to keep land worth 350 Million US Dollars. The Sacha Sauda DeraChief had his Brother In Law (Harminder Singh Jassi) a Congress Ticket from Bhatinda superseding Surinder Singla & a promise of withdrawl of CBI enquiry against him various cases of rape, Murdur etc.
In 2002 Sonia Gandhi visited RSS Beas just before elections at Beas headquarter & spent a full day there to inagaurate an EYE DONATION CAMP alonwith Natwar Singh , Amarinder Singh , Murli Deora among others. On 30th March, 2008, LK Advani visited Maharaj Gurinder Singh, Dera head at RSS, Beas. According to known eyewitnesses , the Baba saluted Advani while greeting him . The Akais r also playing this game of FAITH & POLITICS albiet differently . The so called Panthic Party SAD ( Badal ) has a SECULAR CONSTITUTION under which it fights SGPC elections.
It treats Sikh votes under the influence of Gurudwaras as a free BONUS VOTE , Ghar di murgi dal barabar . But spends the same rate to get votes from Deras as Congress or now new player in the game BJP . As aresult Deras r wooed by all parties & Deras r rolling in money but traditional Sikh Voter is left high & dry . Gurudwaras get nothing in return , SGPC budget is spent on election rallies & horse trading of SAD ( Badal ) . The preaching of Sikhism is left to Non- Government institutions like Sikh Missionary College , Ludhiana & Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle , Ludhiana . They r not at all helped by Akalis or SGPC financially ., rather hurdles r put in their way .
Gurudwaras r controlled by Jats , Dalits r discriminated against in villages . As a result nobody is willing to take the issues of Sikhs , Dera supporters r active in almost every sphere be it Panchayats , Corporations .Some serious introspection is required for revival of Sikhism & slow down this Mushrooming Deras in Punjab )"
This is not a personality attack if this is according to you then I promise that it will be the last one . From now onwards we shall discuss the topic only .
- Sep 26, 2010
- 20
- 2
- 49
"Dear Jatt Khehra Ji
You have put forward a view that a living human Master is an absolute necessity
If we follow that through logically, we could infer that Sri Guru Granth SahibJ is not capable of performing the task of Guruship as it is not a living human Master"
Dear Admin ji
this post is for u only (delete it or not up to u-i dont care)
You can unerstand by an example Guru granth Sahib Ji IS A PRINCIPAL OF An Divine Institute/University/School /College
and all Gurus are teachers obeying him. WHAT U say.(U will not say anything u will delete - i have started knowing u.
deleating again and again my posts showing your weakness, your fear,within hollowness of your thinking,your rigidness.As mentioned by u i want to tell you that u dont need anything logical .all u need is the false praise of your self made logics. I M Glad that you have started realising the need of living Guru yours activities showing this. You have deleated my Posts it means i have successfully make u believe that a living Guru is necessary and now u r afraid that it may works on your all other believemates.
I m realising that to be involved in such discussions is not permitted by my Guru.he is watching us all the time even on this site. he might be very unhappy with me.ACTUALLY U DID NOT DELEATED THESE POSTS BABA JI MAKE U DELETE THESE (might be THE TIME OF OTHES TO KNOW TRUTH HASN'T COME YET) But also a good news for all of you .He noticed all of you . and to be noticed by Complete Satguru by any means any ways Is A very Great Thing . So congrets for being noticed.I m telling u the truth Believe me.He will also call you its just a metter of time and your time will come. I am again thankful to SPN through which i become successful to show u the right path.
YOU DELETED MY POSTS IT MEANS U R AGREE WITH ME
U SHOWED UR ACCEPTANCE BY ACTIVITY NOT BY TEXT (SAME THING)
I will call this bad luck for others who missed these posts but dont worry there time will come .
SO GO AHEAD AND BAN ME FROM THIS FORUM. I KNOW THIS IS THE BEST U CAN DO. AND BY THE WAY I M DONE HERE I MADE MY POINT MADE YOU REALISE The CONCEPT(you R AGREE WITH ME proved by your activites )
I know u r helpless to publically accept this because u R ADMIN of SPN.I understand your position
welcome aboard
:motherlylove:
Paramjit Singh
You have put forward a view that a living human Master is an absolute necessity
If we follow that through logically, we could infer that Sri Guru Granth SahibJ is not capable of performing the task of Guruship as it is not a living human Master"
Dear Admin ji
this post is for u only (delete it or not up to u-i dont care)
You can unerstand by an example Guru granth Sahib Ji IS A PRINCIPAL OF An Divine Institute/University/School /College
and all Gurus are teachers obeying him. WHAT U say.(U will not say anything u will delete - i have started knowing u.
deleating again and again my posts showing your weakness, your fear,within hollowness of your thinking,your rigidness.As mentioned by u i want to tell you that u dont need anything logical .all u need is the false praise of your self made logics. I M Glad that you have started realising the need of living Guru yours activities showing this. You have deleated my Posts it means i have successfully make u believe that a living Guru is necessary and now u r afraid that it may works on your all other believemates.
I m realising that to be involved in such discussions is not permitted by my Guru.he is watching us all the time even on this site. he might be very unhappy with me.ACTUALLY U DID NOT DELEATED THESE POSTS BABA JI MAKE U DELETE THESE (might be THE TIME OF OTHES TO KNOW TRUTH HASN'T COME YET) But also a good news for all of you .He noticed all of you . and to be noticed by Complete Satguru by any means any ways Is A very Great Thing . So congrets for being noticed.I m telling u the truth Believe me.He will also call you its just a metter of time and your time will come. I am again thankful to SPN through which i become successful to show u the right path.
YOU DELETED MY POSTS IT MEANS U R AGREE WITH ME
U SHOWED UR ACCEPTANCE BY ACTIVITY NOT BY TEXT (SAME THING)
I will call this bad luck for others who missed these posts but dont worry there time will come .
SO GO AHEAD AND BAN ME FROM THIS FORUM. I KNOW THIS IS THE BEST U CAN DO. AND BY THE WAY I M DONE HERE I MADE MY POINT MADE YOU REALISE The CONCEPT(you R AGREE WITH ME proved by your activites )
I know u r helpless to publically accept this because u R ADMIN of SPN.I understand your position
welcome aboard
:motherlylove:
Paramjit Singh
- Sep 26, 2010
- 20
- 2
- 49
Re: "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" and the Roadhaswami
Dear DilBark ji.
"2. That the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh " Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai , Guru Manyo Granth " is not in tune with reality & that a book can never be a Guru . Word can never be a Guru ."
i found u always showcasing your Knowledge (Exactly what u dont have on RS Subject) but above lines dont come from Dasam Guru,s Bani.Go reback up your exercises . ARDAS was altered and Edited so many times It was actually written in 18th Century.
your post about byas dera relation with elections IS A BIG FAT LIE.
and onthe otherhand SGPC case U know better than me.i will say no comments because u people r very Good in picking Others words literly to make issues.
regards (Nothing personal)
PARAMJIT SINGH KHEHRA
Dear DilBark ji.
"2. That the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh " Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai , Guru Manyo Granth " is not in tune with reality & that a book can never be a Guru . Word can never be a Guru ."
i found u always showcasing your Knowledge (Exactly what u dont have on RS Subject) but above lines dont come from Dasam Guru,s Bani.Go reback up your exercises . ARDAS was altered and Edited so many times It was actually written in 18th Century.
your post about byas dera relation with elections IS A BIG FAT LIE.
and onthe otherhand SGPC case U know better than me.i will say no comments because u people r very Good in picking Others words literly to make issues.
regards (Nothing personal)
PARAMJIT SINGH KHEHRA
- Sep 26, 2010
- 20
- 2
- 49
Re: "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" and the Roadhaswami
" 1. The real thing is the Gurbani ( knowledge ) as contained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib just as water is in the pitcher , here water is the WORD ( Gurbani ) contained in body & the pitcher is that body . The water ( Gurbani ) is required to quench that thirst , pitcher bereft of water is of no use to us. "
Dear Dilberk ji then why we need teekas to understand. It is Gurlipi and we all know not everybody can understand it then why somany dehdhari peoples explains these for us at so many places
regards
Paramjit Singh:redturban:
" 1. The real thing is the Gurbani ( knowledge ) as contained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib just as water is in the pitcher , here water is the WORD ( Gurbani ) contained in body & the pitcher is that body . The water ( Gurbani ) is required to quench that thirst , pitcher bereft of water is of no use to us. "
Dear Dilberk ji then why we need teekas to understand. It is Gurlipi and we all know not everybody can understand it then why somany dehdhari peoples explains these for us at so many places
regards
Paramjit Singh:redturban:
- Sep 26, 2010
- 20
- 2
- 49
Re: "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" and the Roadhaswami
" All the Deras, all they have to do is to invite some political leader to some big SATSANG & that political leader pays his RESPECTS to Dera Chief in front of DEVOTEES. The leader gets the unusual big crowd, the public gets to see the amount of CLOUT OF BABAJI & to top it all the BABAJI gets his DUE SHARE proportionately. Each vote multiplied by 16,000 to 25,000 Rupees. This BOOTY is in the form of CASH & KIND like land allotment, posting of police officers teachers, health workers, transfers of various officials to PLUM places. "
Dilbark ji
These leaders comming there have love for Guru.they also go to mandirs and gurudwaras why didnt u mentioned this part Everybody is invited including You.You come to dera with whatever of your intentions but u r always invited.baba ji have nothing to do with our social positions. u dont even can't imagine ki how much love he have for U also.
Discussers like both of us (me and you) are so called" "Hollow vessels" by mature persons.
regards
paramjit Singh
" All the Deras, all they have to do is to invite some political leader to some big SATSANG & that political leader pays his RESPECTS to Dera Chief in front of DEVOTEES. The leader gets the unusual big crowd, the public gets to see the amount of CLOUT OF BABAJI & to top it all the BABAJI gets his DUE SHARE proportionately. Each vote multiplied by 16,000 to 25,000 Rupees. This BOOTY is in the form of CASH & KIND like land allotment, posting of police officers teachers, health workers, transfers of various officials to PLUM places. "
Dilbark ji
These leaders comming there have love for Guru.they also go to mandirs and gurudwaras why didnt u mentioned this part Everybody is invited including You.You come to dera with whatever of your intentions but u r always invited.baba ji have nothing to do with our social positions. u dont even can't imagine ki how much love he have for U also.
Discussers like both of us (me and you) are so called" "Hollow vessels" by mature persons.
regards
paramjit Singh
Jat Khera fails to understand that Sikhi is a unique way of life that has nothing to do with cults like Radasoamis. All those so called people who visibly look like Sikhs including the Dearawalas, are not Sikhs but they use Sikhi as money making machines by conning their followers and hence these followers, many of them who are visible Sikhs are brain washed in such a way that they love to flaunt their ignorance as if it were some wisdom.
All these Derawala Babas, some of them who also call themselves Gurus(which our Gurus of Sikhi never called themselves as such) are nothing but charlatans and snake oil salesmen who mislead the populi.
Tejwant Singh
All these Derawala Babas, some of them who also call themselves Gurus(which our Gurus of Sikhi never called themselves as such) are nothing but charlatans and snake oil salesmen who mislead the populi.
Tejwant Singh
Gurfateh Jatt_Khehra Ji
Let me be precise, Sikhs DO NOT need any kind of so called Babae/Sants/Mahapurkhs/Dalals/Bicholiya/Broker/Pakhandis/add to list... to establish his/her relation with his/her only Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am puzzled as to what is so complex in understanding this relationship?
Just for example, when we read translations/transliterations by some of the scholars, that does not mean we would start considering those kathakars/translators as our Guru! The Gurbani vichaar (meanings) derived from such translations does not become something engraved on a stone wall. These translations are open to study by other scholars and this is a ever evolving process.
If you are not satisfied by our moderation process, then you are more than welcome to leave SPN. As far as i can notice, only wayward off-topic gibberish from your posts has been removed. If you do not stop whining about our moderation, as i said before please leave, we have more important jobs to do than editing your off-topic delusional posts.
Please consider this as your last warning!
Thank you!
Gurfateh!
Let me be precise, Sikhs DO NOT need any kind of so called Babae/Sants/Mahapurkhs/Dalals/Bicholiya/Broker/Pakhandis/add to list... to establish his/her relation with his/her only Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am puzzled as to what is so complex in understanding this relationship?
Just for example, when we read translations/transliterations by some of the scholars, that does not mean we would start considering those kathakars/translators as our Guru! The Gurbani vichaar (meanings) derived from such translations does not become something engraved on a stone wall. These translations are open to study by other scholars and this is a ever evolving process.
If you are not satisfied by our moderation process, then you are more than welcome to leave SPN. As far as i can notice, only wayward off-topic gibberish from your posts has been removed. If you do not stop whining about our moderation, as i said before please leave, we have more important jobs to do than editing your off-topic delusional posts.
Please consider this as your last warning!
Thank you!
Gurfateh!
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
Dalbirk ji, please forgive for my earlier intrusion. I hadn't read all the previous posts, but having done so, I can see why you felt it important to ensure you got your own view across. It was not proper for Paramjit Singh Khehra ji to try to push RSSB beliefs on this site. Similarly "sadhu" was well out of line, earlier on in the thread.
At the end of the day all members of any faiths, including Sikh and RSSB members, should appreciate that they might receive an unwelcome reaction to any insensitive posts submitted to a Sikh forum.
Sat Sri Akal
Dalbirk ji, please forgive for my earlier intrusion. I hadn't read all the previous posts, but having done so, I can see why you felt it important to ensure you got your own view across. It was not proper for Paramjit Singh Khehra ji to try to push RSSB beliefs on this site. Similarly "sadhu" was well out of line, earlier on in the thread.
At the end of the day all members of any faiths, including Sikh and RSSB members, should appreciate that they might receive an unwelcome reaction to any insensitive posts submitted to a Sikh forum.
Sat Sri Akal
I would like to thank forum leader dalbirk ji for his comprehensive analysis of how the Radhaswami panth differs from Sikhism on many levels. All the background research I have done affirms his analysis, which is well-organized and compact. Thanks, dalbirk ji
Ek Onkaar Sat Naam
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji holds a primary role in Sikhi, as the one and only Guru of all Sikhs. Either one accepts, or one doesn't.
The question of whether RSSB members follow a living Guru is for RSSB members to decide. Sikhs have chosen to follow SGGS ji alone. The views are incompatible, based on faith, and trying to establish reasons is a futile activity.
These are two separate faiths which both happen to seek spiritual guidance from SGGS ji, but in their own way. It is pointless for either party to convince others to follow their own example. If either wishes to change faith, then many options are available.
Islam, Judaism and Christianity all utilise the Old Testament in their own ways. Nevertheless they are separate faiths, and the followers of two ought not to be classified by followers of the other one, as misguided people misled by false leaders, on the basis that the common teaching is adopted differently.
All would do well to wish good luck to all, on the paths the One Lord, Ek Onkaar, has set them upon. Conflict over religion, whether mental or physical, should be made a thing of the past, and the sooner it is, the better for the whole world. Individuals have a role to play in making mockery of others faiths a thing of the past.
I have found from personal experience, when one practises what one has chosen, and ignores the activities of others even though one might be very aware of them, one tends to realise a much higher level of inner contentment. It is not too dissimilar to learning to disregard the temptations of maya. One can succumb and then suffer, as one is never satisfied and always craves for yet more, or alternatively one can ignore the various pulling effects on one's mind, and live more and more contentedly, as the temptations dwindle in time. In the same manner, Sikhs could ignore short-term solutions offered by dera leaders, and the winding-up posts of insensitive members of other faiths.
SGGS ji offers complete solutions to all of those who go to living "Gurus", but one has to listen with a view to learning from SGGS ji. Cult members make out that SGGS ji cannot guide fully, yet it is the ones who switch who are not prepared to learn. Yet when they turn up before living "gurus" they listen attentively, and buy all the commercial paraphernalia that living "gurus" market, to enhance learning. If they adopted a similar approach with SGGS ji, they would never need to switch. One simply needs rock-solid faith in SGGS ji and in God, and a genuine willingness to learn.
Sat Sri Akal
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji holds a primary role in Sikhi, as the one and only Guru of all Sikhs. Either one accepts, or one doesn't.
The question of whether RSSB members follow a living Guru is for RSSB members to decide. Sikhs have chosen to follow SGGS ji alone. The views are incompatible, based on faith, and trying to establish reasons is a futile activity.
These are two separate faiths which both happen to seek spiritual guidance from SGGS ji, but in their own way. It is pointless for either party to convince others to follow their own example. If either wishes to change faith, then many options are available.
Islam, Judaism and Christianity all utilise the Old Testament in their own ways. Nevertheless they are separate faiths, and the followers of two ought not to be classified by followers of the other one, as misguided people misled by false leaders, on the basis that the common teaching is adopted differently.
All would do well to wish good luck to all, on the paths the One Lord, Ek Onkaar, has set them upon. Conflict over religion, whether mental or physical, should be made a thing of the past, and the sooner it is, the better for the whole world. Individuals have a role to play in making mockery of others faiths a thing of the past.
I have found from personal experience, when one practises what one has chosen, and ignores the activities of others even though one might be very aware of them, one tends to realise a much higher level of inner contentment. It is not too dissimilar to learning to disregard the temptations of maya. One can succumb and then suffer, as one is never satisfied and always craves for yet more, or alternatively one can ignore the various pulling effects on one's mind, and live more and more contentedly, as the temptations dwindle in time. In the same manner, Sikhs could ignore short-term solutions offered by dera leaders, and the winding-up posts of insensitive members of other faiths.
SGGS ji offers complete solutions to all of those who go to living "Gurus", but one has to listen with a view to learning from SGGS ji. Cult members make out that SGGS ji cannot guide fully, yet it is the ones who switch who are not prepared to learn. Yet when they turn up before living "gurus" they listen attentively, and buy all the commercial paraphernalia that living "gurus" market, to enhance learning. If they adopted a similar approach with SGGS ji, they would never need to switch. One simply needs rock-solid faith in SGGS ji and in God, and a genuine willingness to learn.
Sat Sri Akal
jatt_kehra ji
You are spending precious time critiquing and scolding other forum members. We still don't know what you have to say about Radaswami in reply to some reasonable questions and objections. Some times objections are reasonable and they deserve to be answered.
If this continues, you are going to find a one-way ticket out of the forum in your pocket. So please do turn around.
If there are more posts like this the thread will be closed until we are certain that you won't be continuing on your chosen path of debate.
Thanks. welcomekaur
You are spending precious time critiquing and scolding other forum members. We still don't know what you have to say about Radaswami in reply to some reasonable questions and objections. Some times objections are reasonable and they deserve to be answered.
If this continues, you are going to find a one-way ticket out of the forum in your pocket. So please do turn around.
If there are more posts like this the thread will be closed until we are certain that you won't be continuing on your chosen path of debate.
Thanks. welcomekaur
Dear Jatt Khehra Ji
You have expressed an opinion so allow me to express mine
I have had more years exposure to the RS path than you have lived and I am more than happy with my knowledge levels
But I would have to say you have done very little to demonstrate knowledge of either RS or Sikhi on your side
May I return you to my first post where I challenged you to answer this:
Before we compare RS with any other spiritual path let's look at the different sects within RS. The Beas lineage is the most dominant but the Agra lineage is not far behind. There is a third and a less significant fourth as well I think but for now, let's compare RS Beas with RS Agra
There are fundamental differences between the two in terms of the relationship between the Master and the disciple and the initiation process and the names that are given at initiation
I am assuming someone as well informed as yourself will be aware of these differences and would welcome your views as to which path in your mind, is better and why
If you are not aware of these differences, then I suggest you invest some of your personal time in researching them before you come back to me on this
Looking forward to hearing from you soon
The fact that you have failed to answer this speaks volumes about your lack of knowledge and understanding about your own RS faith
Or, you could prove me wrong and provide a meaningful answer
I will leave it to you to decide
Best wishes
:blueturban:
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