Sects Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth And The Radha Soami

[Seeker9]

All would do well to wish good luck to all, on the paths the One Lord, Ek Onkaar, has set them upon. Conflict over religion, whether mental or physical, should be made a thing of the past, and the sooner it is, the better for the whole world. Individuals have a role to play in making mockery of others faiths a thing of the past.

I have found from personal experience, when one practises what one has chosen, and ignores the activities of others even though one might be very aware of them, one tends to realise a much higher level of inner contentment. It is not too dissimilar to learning to disregard the temptations of maya. One can succumb and then suffer, as one is never satisfied and always craves for yet more, or alternatively one can ignore the various pulling effects on one's mind, and live more and more contentedly, as the temptations dwindle in time. In the same manner, Sikhs could ignore short-term solutions offered by dera leaders, and the winding-up posts of insensitive members of other faiths.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji offers complete solutions to all of those who go to living "Gurus", but one has to listen with a view to learning from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Sat Sri Akal

Dear Sunmukh Ji

Many thanks for summing it up so well

I couldn't agree more

Thank you

 

[kds1980]

Re: "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" and the Roadhaswami

Dear DilBark ji.

"2. That the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh " Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai , Guru Manyo Granth " is not in tune with reality & that a book can never be a Guru . Word can never be a Guru ."
i found u always showcasing your Knowledge (Exactly what u dont have on RS Subject) but above lines dont come from Dasam Guru,s Bani.Go reback up your exercises . ARDAS was altered and Edited so many times It was actually written in 18th Century.
your post about byas dera relation with elections IS A BIG FAT LIE.
and onthe otherhand SGPC case U know better than me.i will say no comments because u people r very Good in picking Others words literly to make issues.

regards (Nothing personal)
PARAMJIT SINGH KHEHRA

Guru gobind singh ji Gave Gurgaddi to Guru granth and panth.Please read sikh history and you will find many evidence.

If you don't believe That Gurgaddi was given to Guru granth sahib then Please describe in your own words To whom Gurgaddi was given in 1708 with evidence.Do you want to say Guru gobind singh ji told to sikhs that go and find living guru's?

 

[navnav]

If I write a letter to my mom, and I die the next day. I would hope she actually reads my letter and tries to understand what I was trying to convey. If all she does is take care of the letter and feed it and put it to sleep and acts like the letter IS me. I would be very disappointed.
As for Radha Soami Philosophy:
“It is very difficult to explain in a few words the philosophy of Radha Soami faith. We are not any particular religion, nor do we believe in conversion. To me, religion means something which unites one with the lord. I believe that after a certain period we forget the real teachings of our religions and give more importance to rituals, ceremonies and dogmas of which we become a slave in course of time. Then, all we are left with in the name of religion is just converting people or collecting funds. To me spirituality at the base of every religion is the same. If with an unbiased mind we try to make a research- we may make a research in the teachings of any saint, from anywhere in the world- definitely we would find the same truth preached by all of them.”
“unfortunately their followers, after they, the saints, have left, interpret their teachings in their own way and try to bind them in some sort of organization. As a result they are left with just rituals and ceremonies and forget the real teachings of the saint. Then, again, a saint appears somewhere else and revives the same old teachings. The difficulty is that people generally do not try to make a thorough research in spirituality”
“it was written especially for the Sikhs with the background of Granth Sahib, because when this movement of Radha Soami Faith and all that started in Punjab, they were probably the most agitated, because Maharaj Ji used to explain from the Granth Sahib what Sant Mat is and they probably felt that he was giving a wrong interpretation to the teachings of the Granth Sahib. Maharaj Ji had a lot of this misguided criticism and use to have a lot of discussions with the Sikhs”

 

[navnav]

Re: "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" and the Roadhaswami

Let's not argue over whether or not we need a living master because we don't have those answers. We can argue about whether there even is a god all day and get no where. My friend once said which I found interesting "even if there is a god, why worship him?" he said it as a joke but that's more thinking than most people do.
Yah anyway Seeker I think you missed that person's point.
They said "The focus of discussion therefore needs to be on the radhasoami and their beliefs. Is a living guru required to learn and understand important religious texts including Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Not casting doubts on Sikh Gurus and their beliefs." this person is saying that we don't know who is right and who is wrong and we can only talk about different beliefs and no one can claim to know the truth. and you replied "If a living human Master is a requirement, then I guess the majority of humanity, regardless of their spiritual endeavours, are doomed". the majority of humanity is doomed according to every religion anyway. i dont know if RS is even saying that but if you look at it like that why is RS being singled out? you elaborated by saying there are contradictions in RS. what religion does not contradict itself?
All i'm saying is that sikhism is a religion about learning and thinking for yourself. when guru nanak's philosophies were originally being discussed poeple got hot tempered then too. and all he was saying was lets get back to the individual path and stop ritual practices. he praised hinduism a lot and found its faults(a man who thought for himself!) but if you ask the majority of sikhs today they know nothing about hinduism but they sure know a lot about bindrawala!

 

[Seeker9]

If I write a letter to my mom, and I die the next day. I would hope she actually reads my letter and tries to understand what I was trying to convey. If all she does is take care of the letter and feed it and put it to sleep and acts like the letter IS me. I would be very disappointed.

Yes that would be very sad. Thankfully there is no widespread lack of clarity concerning the message contained within the Sikh Scriptures

As for Radha Soami Philosophy It is very difficult to explain in a few words the philosophy of Radha Soami faith. We are not any particular religion, nor do we believe in conversion.

But you do believe in initiation and secrecy

To me, religion means something which unites one with the lord. I believe that after a certain period we forget the real teachings of our religions and give more importance to rituals, ceremonies and dogmas of which we become a slave in course of time.

Good point, I agree

Then, all we are left with in the name of religion is just converting people or collecting funds. To me spirituality at the base of every religion is the same. If with an unbiased mind we try to make a research- we may make a research in the teachings of any saint, from anywhere in the world- definitely we would find the same truth preached by all of them.”

Yes it is possibile if you go past all the man-made surface rubbish

“unfortunately their followers, after they, the saints, have left, interpret their teachings in their own way and try to bind them in some sort of organization.

That's a pretty accurate description of an RS Dera movement!

As a result they are left with just rituals and ceremonies and forget the real teachings of the saint. Then, again, a saint appears somewhere else and revives the same old teachings. The difficulty is that people generally do not try to make a thorough research in spirituality”

That is a bit of a sweeping generalisation from one so young...or is that what you have heard at the RS SatSang???

it was written especially for the Sikhs with the background of Granth Sahib, because when this movement of Radha Soami Faith and all that started in Punjab,

RS started in Agra. An unauthorised offshoot led by Baba Jaimal Singh Ji began at Beas in Punjab. As before, I would urge you to do some research here. I provided a useful link in the other thread where we started corresponding

they were probably the most agitated, because Maharaj Ji used to explain from the Granth Sahib what Sant Mat is and they probably felt that he was giving a wrong interpretation to the teachings of the Granth Sahib.

I have heard both the current RS Beas Master and his predecessor and their Satsangs are basically a regurgitation of the Sikh Scriptures. However, as you alluded in an earlier post on a different thread, it can have more impact for some people when a Shabad is explained in detail line by line

Maharaj Ji had a lot of this misguided criticism and use to have a lot of discussions with the Sikhs”

As I keep on noting on this forum as a means of giving some credibility to my views on RS, I have had exposure to RS all my life through friends and family and have attended lots of Satsangs. I will not speak ill of the RS Masters other than to say that to me they are preachers and good at explaining Scripture. However, I do not regard them as having divine origins or any divinity about their person.

As for the interpretation of Scripture, I have heard countless RS proclaiming that only they understand the true meaning and that the Sikhs don't even understand their own bani.

That sort of statement is grossly insulting to Sikhs and no one should be surprised as to what Sikhs think of RS

Like I said on an earlier post on another thread, I am happy with the each to their own philosophy so long as it:

1) Doesn't impinge on my personal freedoms
2) No one tries to shovel their belief system on those who are clearly not interested
3) No one declares themselves as being superior

But like I said, that doesn't always happen does it?

There are a handful of RS for whom I have great respect. But sadly, the greater majority of RS I have come across to date in my 40 years of life are guilty of points 2 & 3 above

Guilty repeatedly without fail

If you want to tell us more about RS beliefs and practices, then please do so but do please do not call the integrity of Sikh beliefs and practices into question....don't forget what forum you are posting on!!

 

[Admin]

You may wanna put the quotes again in the above post as it is quite confusing reading the above message.

Thanks!

 

[Seeker9]

Re: "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth" and the Roadhaswami

Let's not argue over whether or not we need a living master because we don't have those answers.


ME - Well not quite, the title of this thread contains one answer!



We can argue about whether there even is a god all day and get no where. My friend once said which I found interesting "even if there is a god, why worship him?" he said it as a joke but that's more thinking than most people do.
Yah anyway Seeker I think you missed that person's point.
They said "The focus of discussion therefore needs to be on the radhasoami and their beliefs. Is a living guru required to learn and understand important religious texts including Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Not casting doubts on Sikh Gurus and their beliefs." this person is saying that we don't know who is right and who is wrong and we can only talk about different beliefs and no one can claim to know the truth.


ME - I don't think so and I hope SPN Admin Ji will bring further clarification to this point


and you replied "If a living human Master is a requirement, then I guess the majority of humanity, regardless of their spiritual endeavours, are doomed". the majority of humanity is doomed according to every religion anyway. i dont know if RS is even saying that but if you look at it like that why is RS being singled out?



ME - Now I think you are missing the point. My point was that such an argument would render the greater majority of other religions redundant as they do not have a current living human Master. That is something I disagree with and it contradicts some of the comments you have made to date in terms of letting everyone follow their own path.



you elaborated by saying there are contradictions in RS. what religion does not contradict itself?



ME - I think we need to explore these contradictions further. As far as I can tell, the Beas lineage started of in order to gain successorship in Punjab. Nothing spiritual there

But seeing you made the point, what contradictions do you see in Sri Guru Granth SahibJ? I am not talking about people or practices here...I am referring specifically to the Scriptures



All i'm saying is that sikhism is a religion about learning and thinking for yourself. when guru nanak's philosophies were originally being discussed poeple got hot tempered then too. and all he was saying was lets get back to the individual path and stop ritual practices. he praised hinduism a lot and found its faults(a man who thought for himself!) but if you ask the majority of sikhs today they know nothing about hinduism but they sure know a lot about bindrawala!

ME - Too much of a sweeping generalisation there for me to agree with

 

[Seeker9]

You may wanna put the quotes again in the above post as it is quite confusing reading the above message.

Thanks!

I know. Sorry..I tried 3 times and don't understand why it isn't working! will try again...bear with me please!!

 

[Admin]

There seems to be some issues with you browser i guess, SPN works great with Firefox, Chrome and IE browsers.

Also please use Quotes button

to differentiate your content from others... this help us keep the forums neat and clean.

Thank You!

 

[Seeker9]

There seems to be some issues with you browser i guess, SPN works great with Firefox, Chrome and IE browsers.

Also please use Quotes button

to differentiate your content from others... this help us keep the forums neat and clean.

Thank You!

Thanks for helping me out there Aman Ji

I was testing Chrome but think I will return to Firefox!!

 

[spnadmin]

navnav ji

I was the person you are quoting

Yah anyway Seeker I think you missed that person's point.
They said "The focus of discussion therefore needs to be on the radhasoami and their beliefs. Is a living guru required to learn and understand important religious texts including Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Not casting doubts on Sikh Gurus and their beliefs."

When I asked that question my goal was for forum member jatt_khehra to return to the topic of conversation. And to move him away from a pattern of insulting other members and then complaining about moderation when his comments were deleted. That kind of thing makes a thread very high-maintenance without adding any thing of value. The thread ends up looking like a street corner brawl. And in the end it turns a lot of people away from even reading our threads. But thanks for taking the question seriously, and answering the question for jatt-kehra from your personal experience and understanding.

 

[navnav]

But you do believe in initiation and secrecy. All this is made up by Sikhs that are losing their marketshare, where religion is just selling an invisible product.
That is a bit of a sweeping generalisation from one so young...or is that what you have heard at the RS SatSang. Yes that’s what they believe but again every single individual interprets every word differently. This is why its important to do your own research even in Sikhism, people have agendas and politics gets intermingled with religion all too often.
RS started in Agra. An unauthorised offshoot led by Baba Jaimal Singh Ji began at Beas in Punjab. As before, I would urge you to do some research here. I provided a useful link in the other thread where we started corresponding. That’s just about a book Maharaj Ji wrote clarifying his philosophy. He used the Granth Sahib to say that all books have the same message. But of course religion needs to divide and conquer.
basically a regurgitation of the Sikh Scriptures. If that’s the case then whats the problem? Oh right because people are donating to RS and not gurdwara. Ok right, got yah! I bet there would be no problem if people continued to donate to the gurdwara but practices RS. It’s a numbers game.
preachers and good at explaining Scripture. However, I do not regard them as having divine origins or any divinity about their person. I believe the same thing. But I will expand and say someone else can believe whatever they want.
If you want to tell us more about RS beliefs and practices, then please do so but do please do not call the integrity of Sikh beliefs and practices into question. I believe in Sikhism, what I’m questioning has nothing to do with Sikhism. Its valid points and I get it there hard to answer because for so many years rational people don’t say anything. But the facts are Sikhism today even with this website alone. Keeps showing all the warriors. People that are not smart enough interpret things in twisted ways.

 

[Seeker9]

But you do believe in initiation and secrecy. All this is made up by Sikhs that are losing their marketshare, where religion is just selling an invisible product.
That is a bit of a sweeping generalisation from one so young...or is that what you have heard at the RS SatSang. Yes that’s what they believe but again every single individual interprets every word differently. This is why its important to do your own research even in Sikhism, people have agendas and politics gets intermingled with religion all too often.
RS started in Agra. An unauthorised offshoot led by Baba Jaimal Singh Ji began at Beas in Punjab. As before, I would urge you to do some research here. I provided a useful link in the other thread where we started corresponding. That’s just about a book Maharaj Ji wrote clarifying his philosophy. He used the Granth Sahib to say that all books have the same message. But of course religion needs to divide and conquer.
basically a regurgitation of the Sikh Scriptures. If that’s the case then whats the problem? Oh right because people are donating to RS and not gurdwara. Ok right, got yah! I bet there would be no problem if people continued to donate to the gurdwara but practices RS. It’s a numbers game.
preachers and good at explaining Scripture. However, I do not regard them as having divine origins or any divinity about their person. I believe the same thing. But I will expand and say someone else can believe whatever they want.
If you want to tell us more about RS beliefs and practices, then please do so but do please do not call the integrity of Sikh beliefs and practices into question. I believe in Sikhism, what I’m questioning has nothing to do with Sikhism. Its valid points and I get it there hard to answer because for so many years rational people don’t say anything. But the facts are Sikhism today even with this website alone. Keeps showing all the warriors. People that are not smart enough interpret things in twisted ways.

If nothing is secret, then please share the 5 names with us here. If you don't know them, then please ask it of a RS friend or family member

I daresay RS Beas would have a convenient explanation as to their origins and why they diverged from Agra, which has a different lineage and different initiation and different Naam and different relationship between Master and disciple. The fact that more than one branch of RS exists today is not made up by Sikhs. It is unequivocal fact

Interesting concept that Religion is a market Sikhs want to dominate and not RS

Please do restate your points in plain English so the more mentally challenged amongst us can try and understand them and respond to them in an intelligent way
rangesingh:

 

[navnav]

The same respect you want for your beliefs does not seem to be reciprocated on your end, but you do want those same freedoms for yourself.
5 names? What are you talking about? The only problem you have with RS is that they think differently then you and have different beliefs. If you’re talking about corruption? I guess cause I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about. Corruption exists in every religion.
Overall my point is nothing more than let people be. Atheists make fun of religion for a reason because it promotes hate more times than respect.

 

[Seeker9]

The same respect you want for your beliefs does not seem to be reciprocated on your end, but you do want those same freedoms for yourself.
5 names? What are you talking about? The only problem you have with RS is that they think differently then you and have different beliefs. If you’re talking about corruption? I guess cause I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about. Corruption exists in every religion.
Overall my point is nothing more than let people be. Atheists make fun of religion for a reason because it promotes hate more times than respect.

As I have already said twice now, I set 3 criteria which I won't repeat again. But for example, I don't have problems with Buddhists or Hindu people or even Christian people I know because they don't do anything against those criteria

If you are asking me what I mean by the 5 names, then I guess you don't actually know as much as you think you do... disappointing...

Can I ask you..what is your experience of RS?

Is it something new or is it something you have experienced for some time?

Have you attended lot's of Satsangs?

Have you discussed RS with family and friends and sevadars and preachers?

Just curious .....

 

[spnadmin]

There really needs to be no anger expressed in the dissension in this discussion. First of all navnav ji you are doing some heavy lifting in presenting the RS point of view on more than one thread, and have done it better than has been the case so many times in years gone by. Seeker9 ji you keep pressing for specifics and that is what we need if we are going to understand RS philosophy.

So no need to argue really, because Seeker9 ji can ask clear questions and navnav ji you have the temperament to give clear answers.

So far no one has given convincing information that Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Radassoami teach the same thing, according to the same intuitions and understandings of the human being's relationship with a satguru.

Answers to questions laid out by Seeker 9 ji on the matter of needing a living master - lets return to that.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The problem with the Radasoamis is the same as with the Ravidasis. Now, Ravidasis have installed there own Granth and separated themselves Sikhi as a separate entity and a cult is fine. The problem occurred which led to the heinous crimes in Austria for which the criminals got the just punishment,was the same as with the Radasoamis. They are using SGGS as a tool to con their followers and some of the "GURUS" call themselves Satgurus which is the name of Ik Ong Kaar in the SGGS.

No Sikh would or should have any problems if the Radosoamis worshipped the statues of their Gurus or the Gurus had their own Granths. But it is insulting to say the least that they look visibly as Sikhs and practice anti Sikhi rituals which is a big NO,NO. Let them become Monas and write their own Granths.

Piggybacking on Sikhi to con people and rake money is uncalled for and should be criticised as it is justly being done here.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Seeker9]

The problem with the Radasoamis is the same as with the Ravidasis. Now, Ravidasis have installed there own Granth and separated themselves Sikhi as a separate entity and a cult is fine. The problem occurred which led to the heinous crimes in Austria for which the criminals got the just punishment,was the same as with the Radasoamis. They are using Sri Guru Granth Sahib as a tool to con their followers and some of the "GURUS" call themselves Satgurus which is the name of Ik Ong Kaar in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

No Sikh would or should have any problems if the Radosoamis worshipped the statues of their Gurus or the Gurus had their own Granths. But it is insulting to say the least that they look visibly as Sikhs and practice anti Sikhi rituals which is a big NO,NO. Let them become Monas and write their own Granths.

Piggybacking on Sikhi to con people and rake money is uncalled for and should be criticised as it is justly being done here.

Tejwant Singh

Dear Tejwant Ji

I think it may be possible to bring in the caste angle here...I am confident caste discrimination is a motivator for the emergence of the Ravidassi path and I guess it could be said that there might be an element of that for some followers of RS

It is a pity that these human created and propagated caste issues have resulted in people moving away from the original Scriptures

 

[navnav]

My personal relationship with RS is i grew up with my mom who follows RS and my dad follows sikhism. as for the caste system, i can say atleast personally, my mom always told me i can marry whoever i want, talks against the caste system all the time. my dad however has told me many times he will find me a jatt punjabi boy to marry. i know not all sikhs believe that but in my persoanl experience thats the case. anyway i found answers to the living master question.
AGAIN I NEED TO STATE THIS: I do not care what you personally think, this is the radha soami perspective. whether or not its right, we wont find out until we die.
These are answers given by Maharaj Charan Singh.
Q. Is there no other way to God-realization except with the help of a master?
A. Brother, for whatever we learn in this world we always need some teacher, someone who has the knowledge of that subject. You have met so many doctors, so many advocates, engineers, and none of them have become doctors, lawyers or engineers simply by going to the laboratory or by reading books. Even after spending many years in schools and colleges, they have to go for practical training before they can make any headway in that line. For this worldly knowledge, worldly gain, we have to go to teachers, to learn from them. and spirituality is the most difficult subject. For this we need a master, a teacher in spirituality. He tells us why we have to meet the Lord and where the Lord is; how to find the Lord; what is between us and the Lord that keeps us away from Him; and how to remove these coverings, these barriers between us and the Lord. You may call him Master, teacher, elder brother, friend. These are just names given to recognize somebody in this world.
The word, “Master”, should not confuse us at all. We may call him a teacher or by any name, but we must have somebody to put us on the path, to tell us about the path. There are so many obstacles in the way. There are so many temptations to lead us astray in the way. Unless there is somebody to guide us and keep us straight on that path, we can never travel on it. this is what we know outside. Internally, it is even more difficult to travel without a right guide, without a proper teacher.
Q. to have one who is alive, is better, of course?
A. for our spiritual development, we have to find a living spiritual teacher. In order to become a doctor, we need a teacher who is a doctor. In order to get some other knowledge, you need a teacher in that line. In order to gain spiritual development within ourselves, we need a living spiritual teacher.
Q. is there only one spiritual teacher for all?
A. there may be many. Spiritual teachers are not confined to any particular caste or religion or to any particular country or state. They can be anywhere and there can be any number.
Q. you say there are many teachers; there may be many teachers, then how can an individual know when he has the right teacher?
A. it is extremely difficult to tell you frankly; because we try to judge them on an intellectual level. And depend on that to guide us rightly. But still there are certain ways. We have got to see them in order to satisfy our intellect as to whether one is a right teacher or a wrong teacher, according to our limited intellect.

 

[Seeker9]

My personal relationship with RS is i grew up with my mom who follows RS and my dad follows sikhism. as for the caste system, i can say atleast personally, my mom always told me i can marry whoever i want, talks against the caste system all the time. my dad however has told me many times he will find me a jatt punjabi boy to marry. i know not all sikhs believe that but in my persoanl experience thats the case. anyway i found answers to the living master question.
AGAIN I NEED TO STATE THIS: I do not care what you personally think, this is the radha soami perspective. whether or not its right, we wont find out until we die.
These are answers given by Maharaj Charan Singh.
Q. Is there no other way to God-realization except with the help of a master?
A. Brother, for whatever we learn in this world we always need some teacher, someone who has the knowledge of that subject. You have met so many doctors, so many advocates, engineers, and none of them have become doctors, lawyers or engineers simply by going to the laboratory or by reading books. Even after spending many years in schools and colleges, they have to go for practical training before they can make any headway in that line. For this worldly knowledge, worldly gain, we have to go to teachers, to learn from them. and spirituality is the most difficult subject. For this we need a master, a teacher in spirituality. He tells us why we have to meet the Lord and where the Lord is; how to find the Lord; what is between us and the Lord that keeps us away from Him; and how to remove these coverings, these barriers between us and the Lord. You may call him Master, teacher, elder brother, friend. These are just names given to recognize somebody in this world.
The word, “Master”, should not confuse us at all. We may call him a teacher or by any name, but we must have somebody to put us on the path, to tell us about the path. There are so many obstacles in the way. There are so many temptations to lead us astray in the way. Unless there is somebody to guide us and keep us straight on that path, we can never travel on it. this is what we know outside. Internally, it is even more difficult to travel without a right guide, without a proper teacher.
Q. to have one who is alive, is better, of course?
A. for our spiritual development, we have to find a living spiritual teacher. In order to become a doctor, we need a teacher who is a doctor. In order to get some other knowledge, you need a teacher in that line. In order to gain spiritual development within ourselves, we need a living spiritual teacher.
Q. is there only one spiritual teacher for all?
A. there may be many. Spiritual teachers are not confined to any particular caste or religion or to any particular country or state. They can be anywhere and there can be any number.
Q. you say there are many teachers; there may be many teachers, then how can an individual know when he has the right teacher?
A. it is extremely difficult to tell you frankly; because we try to judge them on an intellectual level. And depend on that to guide us rightly. But still there are certain ways. We have got to see them in order to satisfy our intellect as to whether one is a right teacher or a wrong teacher, according to our limited intellect.

Dear Nav Nav Ji

You are right in saying that is the RS perspective

I choose not to agree with it, that is my choice

As SPN Admin Ji has noted already, we could continue to go in circles here ....

Just for clarification...

I can accept the concept of teachers and preachers..that is not something unique to RS ... Churches have the clergy, Mosques have Imams and they are well versed in their respective scriptures

But RS go beyond that simple concept with the concept of a Perfect Master...a Sat Guru

As I have said on more than one occasion already, I do not recognise the alleged divinity of the RS Masters...not a single one of them has done anything to demonstrate divinity

But they are quite clever in selling the teacher concept which makes perfect sense and then adding the trimmings of a Perfect Master with it

If you want to stick up for them, that's fine by me...really it is.

Although I can't help thinking you might be backing the wrong horse.......

But we shall agree to disagree as we have been unable to get into detailed discussion about other specific areas

This forum will offer you the Sikh perspective. What you think about it will ultimately be of no consequence either

As one parting comment, Dalbirk Ji made 2 very detailed posts on this thread.. I would urge you to read them both

Best wishes