Sects Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth And The Radha Soami

[spnadmin]

Thanks everyone for clarifying the main points of discussion and getting back on track.

 

[Seeker9]

AGAIN I NEED TO STATE THIS: I do not care what you personally think, this is the radha soami perspective. whether or not its right, we wont find out until we die.

Ok

Couldn't resist another post....what exactly are you hoping to achieve here?

Should I put up similar posts like: this is what the Buddhists believe, this is what the Jewish believe, this is what Hindus believe, this is what Scientologists believe, this is what Jedi believe....and I do not care what you personally think and we won't find out until we die

What exactly does that achieve?

If you want to talk about Atheism. let's talk about Atheism.. there's a few existing threads to choose from

But to be honest, I am still none the wiser as to what message you want to convey to us on this forum.....

 

[navnav]

I choose not to agree with it, that is my choice
Yes everyone has the freedom of religion, but also an obligation to respect other beliefs.

But RS go beyond that simple concept with the concept of a Perfect Master...a Sat Guru
Yes they do and again no you don’t have to believe anything but yes you do have to respect others beliefs. I think someone posted why isn’t the gurdwara doing anything about RS? Because the gurdwara alone varies in its interpretation of Sikhism.

As I have said on more than one occasion already, I do not recognize the alleged divinity of the RS Masters...not a single one of them has done anything to demonstrate divinity
I agree with that but what has the guru granth sahib done to be divine or much less a guru? And not just a msg of the gurus

But they are quite clever in selling the teacher concept which makes perfect sense and then adding the trimmings of a Perfect Master with it
Overall I do agree with that. Religion is all about selling an invisible product and it does consist of a lot of sneaky marketing ploys in order to gain power. But again that’s not just RS. As Bill Maher put it religions keep getting crazier in order keep up with each other and keep the masses entertained.

Although I can't help thinking you might be backing the wrong horse
I don’t think any human being has the intellect to make that kind of a judgment. Just worry about your individual path and let others be concerned with theirs.

What exactly are you hoping to achieve here?
I hope more people can start using their minds and not offer it up to one single religion, because all the religions preaches good things. But in the end of the day. The bad people will see the bad things and good people will see the good in every religion, end of story.
Every sentence in modern English can have different meanings. So its almost obvious that Sanskrit and Gurmukhi are not easily translated. Therefore, a lot can be lost in translation and that is why it should be modernize with civilization.

Should I put up similar posts like: this is what the Buddhists believe, this is what the Jewish believe, this is what Hindus believe, this is what Scientologists believe, this is what Jedi believe....and I do not care what you personally think and we won't find out until we die
Yes if it’s relevant always bring up the philosophies of different religions and understand their teachings and try to understand life in general by yourself for some time without any scriptures. Figure out how relevant the teachings are in your own life.

If you want to talk about Atheism. Let’s talk about Atheism.. there's a few existing threads to choose from
I like how you said if you want to talk about atheism let's talk about. Here are the threads lol can people not make up their own minds? What we have to understand is that everyone has an agenda. Every website and yes every thread!

Whatever you are taught when you're a kid is what you're going to believe when you're older. Fair to say? If you grow up Sikh you will most likely identify with Sikhism. But since everyone has different interpretations of what is the most important aspect of Sikhism most people cannot understand another person’s interpretations. I'm not any better or worse of a Sikh than anyone else. I may not believe in the 5ks or believing the granth sahib is divine of which too there is no proof but I consider myself the same amount of Sikh.

Overall, its just so easy to insult RS while being so blind about Sikhism, can anyone just come up with good ideologies anymore? Can we not have intellectual debates anymore? Humanity had very intelligent debates 10000 years ago! I would like to think we have developed intellectually to some extent not just our science.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

My personal relationship with RS is i grew up with my mom who follows RS and my dad follows sikhism. as for the caste system, i can say atleast personally, my mom always told me i can marry whoever i want, talks against the caste system all the time. my dad however has told me many times he will find me a jatt punjabi boy to marry. i know not all sikhs believe that but in my persoanl experience thats the case. anyway i found answers to the living master question.
AGAIN I NEED TO STATE THIS: I do not care what you personally think, this is the radha soami perspective. whether or not its right, we wont find out until we die.
These are answers given by Maharaj Charan Singh.
Q. Is there no other way to God-realization except with the help of a master?
A. Brother, for whatever we learn in this world we always need some teacher, someone who has the knowledge of that subject. You have met so many doctors, so many advocates, engineers, and none of them have become doctors, lawyers or engineers simply by going to the laboratory or by reading books. Even after spending many years in schools and colleges, they have to go for practical training before they can make any headway in that line. For this worldly knowledge, worldly gain, we have to go to teachers, to learn from them. and spirituality is the most difficult subject. For this we need a master, a teacher in spirituality. He tells us why we have to meet the Lord and where the Lord is; how to find the Lord; what is between us and the Lord that keeps us away from Him; and how to remove these coverings, these barriers between us and the Lord. You may call him Master, teacher, elder brother, friend. These are just names given to recognize somebody in this world.
The word, “Master”, should not confuse us at all. We may call him a teacher or by any name, but we must have somebody to put us on the path, to tell us about the path. There are so many obstacles in the way. There are so many temptations to lead us astray in the way. Unless there is somebody to guide us and keep us straight on that path, we can never travel on it. this is what we know outside. Internally, it is even more difficult to travel without a right guide, without a proper teacher.
Q. to have one who is alive, is better, of course?
A. for our spiritual development, we have to find a living spiritual teacher. In order to become a doctor, we need a teacher who is a doctor. In order to get some other knowledge, you need a teacher in that line. In order to gain spiritual development within ourselves, we need a living spiritual teacher.
Q. is there only one spiritual teacher for all?
A. there may be many. Spiritual teachers are not confined to any particular caste or religion or to any particular country or state. They can be anywhere and there can be any number.
Q. you say there are many teachers; there may be many teachers, then how can an individual know when he has the right teacher?
A. it is extremely difficult to tell you frankly; because we try to judge them on an intellectual level. And depend on that to guide us rightly. But still there are certain ways. We have got to see them in order to satisfy our intellect as to whether one is a right teacher or a wrong teacher, according to our limited intellect.

The Radasoami " Maharaj" is nothing but a Snake oil salesman and his followers love the snake oil rub. He is misleading and making fool of people and people love to be made fool of and shower the "Maharaj" with money and he is raking by using Sri Guru Granth Sahib as a money making machine as many other derawalas and cult do.

What a shame that a cult like this would not have its own scriptures and the Charalatan is making people not to think on their own but follow him like some blind sheep.

One is either a Sikh and has Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the only Guru or a cultist like radasoami. One can not claim to be both because it shows how this person is insecure not by his/her own fault but due to the insecurity of the Maharaj who has a Sikh name and is a visible Sikh which is nothing but a facade to con the ignorant.

Tejwant Singh

 

[navnav]

"One is either a Sikh and has Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the only Guru or a cultist like radosoami"
Why because you say so? Sorry that's just not sufficient. And anyway I don't think RS are snake oil sales men but rather even worse. All religions sell an invisible product. Atleast the snake oil sales man will provide a product, whether or not it works, it is tangible.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Navnav ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Whatever you are taught when you're a kid is what you're going to believe when you're older. Fair to say? If you grow up Sikh you will most likely identify with Sikhism.

Here you are contradicting yourself and insulting your Radasoami Maharaj.

1.Didn't he grow up as a Sikh?

2.Does he wear a turban?

3.Does he talk about Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the only GURU of the Sikhs?

If the answers to the above 3 are yes, then your statement makes no sense.

But since everyone has different interpretations of what is the most important aspect of Sikhism most people cannot understand another person’s interpretations.

I agree. That is the beautiful thing about poetry and our visionary Gurus preferred this way so that it becomes a life learning project of the individual rather than some snakeoil salesman offers his snakeoil rub on a platter which the Radasoami cultist " Maharaj" does.

Lots of Katahvachaks in Sikhi offer their interpretations but everyone is encouraged to understand Gurbani in their own way through their life experiences. Sikhi is about learning, unlearning and relearning daily. That is the idea behind doing Nitnem and the word Sikh exactly mean that.

I'm not any better or worse of a Sikh than anyone else.

You may call and claim to be a Sikh but with your own admission you are a Radasoami a cultist which is nothing to do with Sikhi. Gurbani is used more as a weapon than a tool in the cult.

I may not believe in the 5ks or believing the granth sahib is divine of which too there is no proof but I consider myself the same amount of Sikh.

That is fine but you are wrong about Sri Guru Granth Sahib being divine. Guru means a teacher. Your Cultist Maharaj claims to be divine and Satguru which in Sikhi is Ik Ong Kaar. It shows his own insecurity. The fact of the matter is that our Gurus did not call themselves Gurus but gave themselves numbers in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru. I think your cultist Maharaj forgot to share that with you and it shows that he is more interested in Me-ism, which again shows how insecure he is about himself, than One-ism, what Sikhi is all about.

Tejwant Singh

 

[ArshSingh1984]

Navnav ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



Here you are contradicting yourself and insulting your Radasoami Maharaj.

1.Didn't he grow up as a Sikh?

2.Does he wear a turban?

3.Does he talk about Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the only GURU of the Sikhs?

If the answers to the above 3 are yes, then your statement makes no sense.



I agree. That is the beautiful thing about poetry and our visionary Gurus preferred this way so that it becomes a life learning project of the individual rather than some snakeoil salesman offers his snakeoil rub on a platter which the Radasoami cultist " Maharaj" does.

Lots of Katahvachaks in Sikhi offer their interpretations but everyone is encouraged to understand Gurbani in their own way through their life experiences. Sikhi is about learning, unlearning and relearning daily. That is the idea behind doing Nitnem and the word Sikh exactly mean that.



You may call and claim to be a Sikh but with your own admission you are a Radasoami a cultist which is nothing to do with Sikhi. Gurbani is used more as a weapon than a tool in the cult.



That is fine but you are wrong about Sri Guru Granth Sahib being divine. Guru means a teacher. Your Cultist Maharaj claims to be divine and Satguru which in Sikhi is Ik Ong Kaar. It shows his own insecurity. The fact of the matter is that our Gurus did not call themselves Gurus but gave themselves numbers in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Gurus. I think your cultist Maharaj forgot to share that with you and it shows that he is more interested in Me-ism, which again shows how insecure he is about himself, than One-ism, what Sikhi is all about.

Tejwant Singh

What I see happening in this forum are two things:
NavNav seems to be offering the Devil's Advocate position to genuinely ask this forum to really question the divide between Sikhs and Radhasoamis.

Tejwant, you seem to be reluctant to give any credence to another spiritual philosophy. Which is FINE because as per my experience, I find that the more religious folk (i.e. Fundamentalists) tend not to want to sway their thoughts. They (i.e. Tejwant) seem to be rather comfortable in a zone of ignorance and tradition, and unfortunately, the modern world, as it is, is leaving your way of life behind.

Sikhism is to Radhasoami as Lutherans are to the Catholic church. Just as Luther poster his 99 Theses protesting against the priest hierarchy in Germany, Radhasoamis have adopted a different set of rules to go by, vis-à-vis their spiritual practices.

Radhasoami, like Sikhism will not be threatened away; it is a damn shame, that Sikhism, which emerged during the height of intolerance (the Mogul rule) came to stand for diversity and open thought. But now, Sikhi seems to have changed its tune; more conservative voices are denouncing free thought and advocating for stagnation.

I go back to my original point that in this modern world, either religions have to accommodate one another, or they can close themselves off, like Muslims in Mecca.

Really, Tej, what is YOUR point in being here, on a Radhasoami forum, where people are trying to talk freely across the spiritual divide and gain some form of understanding from one another?

For me personally, like NavNav, I am on the fence about the whole religion/God thing. But it is because of voices like yours, Tejwant, that have turned me away from organized religion, as it seems to display hostility to ANY change.

One final note: All religions start off as cults. Once upon a time, there was a Jew who had about 12 followers, and everyone called them nuts. This was the beginning of Christianity. Once ik baba Nanak si, and a small group of Hindus and Muslims started following him... this is now Sikhism.

Any thoughts?

 

[spnadmin]

Really, Tej, what is YOUR point in being here, on a Radhasoami forum, where people are trying to talk freely across the spiritual divide and gain some form of understanding from one another?

ArshSingh1984 ji

Whilst waiting for Tejwant ji to reply I have a question. Where did you get the idea that Tejwant was "on a Radhaswami forum?" He has been in Hendersen Nevada all night and online at a SIKH FORUM.

Are you running some kind of funny feed, perhaps on some sort of virtual network, perhaps monitoring several forums at one time, and got your forums mixed up?

 

[ArshSingh1984]

ArshSingh1984 ji

Whilst waiting for Tejwant ji to reply I have a question. Where did you get the idea that Tejwant was "on a Radhaswami forum?" He has been in Hendersen Nevada all night and online at a SIKH FORUM.

Are you running some kind of funny feed, perhaps on some sort of virtual network, perhaps monitoring several forums at one time, and got your forums mixed up?

Even though your question does not intend to discuss my entire post as a whole, and is ENTIRELY irrelevant to the nature of the discussion, I will respond, sir:
The title of this forum (or message board, or whatever) is "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth and the Radha Soami".
It is, by its title, inherently obvious that it has been posted to bridge the gap between Sikhs and Radhasoamis.
As for your accusation that I am running a "funny feed", I am absolutely oblivious to the technical nature of computers, unlike my engineer cousins. Therefore, I will take it as more than a compliment that you thought that I was even capable of such technical feats (which I am not.)
I hope that answers your tangential question.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Arshsinghji1984,

Guru Fateh.

Before I respond to you, can you please tell me if you have posted in this forum under another ID- User Name?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[ArshSingh1984]

No. What's your response?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

No. What's your response?

ArshiSingh1984 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Are you sure because if you are not telling the truth then, how would your Maharaj feel about it?

Is being truthful part of the Radasoami sect or not?

Please respond to my questions above.

You may come clean as an honest person if you like.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[ArshSingh1984]

ArshiSingh1984 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Are you sure because if you are not telling the truth then, how would your Maharaj feel about it?

Is being truthful part of the Radasoami sect or not?

Please respond to my questions above.

You may come clean as an honest person if you like.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Look Tej,
You are using a diversion tactic to avoid answering my post. It's fine if you have no thoughts on it. I don't blame you. It's hard to argue against reason. I have already told you that I have not used any other ID.
First rule of debate: do not assume you know your opponent's intentions.
I have no other ID, and I am not Radhasoami.
Chal, phattey chakdey.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Navnav ji,

Guru Fateh.

Do you happen to know Arshsingh1984 ji?

Do you two go to the same satsang?

I am a bit confused because, my initial post was addressed to you and I was expecting a response from you.

Can you clarify this please?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[ArshSingh1984]

Navnav ji,

Guru Fateh.

Do you happen to know Arshsingh1984 ji?

Do you two go to the same satsang?

I am a bit confused because, my initial post was addressed to you and I was expecting a response from you.

Can you clarify this please?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Oh wow, that must be an OLD post, because things have changed. I didn't even know I had an old account here. Yeah, I am not that old person anymore. Lots of things have changed. Now then, response? I would like to hear what you have to say to my CURRENT post (not old ones)

Edit: I thought it was addressed to me. I think I had an old account here under the same or similar name (aarshsingh1984). I am not navnav Christ. Answer

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Oh wow, that must be an OLD post, because things have changed. I didn't even know I had an old account here. Yeah, I am not that old person anymore. Lots of things have changed. Now then, response? I would like to hear what you have to say to my CURRENT post (not old ones)

ArshSingh1984 ji,

Guru Fateh.

What do you mean by OLD POST and OLD ACCOUNT? You said earlier you did not have another ID?

I am sorry to say, I can not trust you anymore because you are waffling.

Please come clean what you mean by the above so I can respond to your initial post.

Btw, do you know NavNav ji? As I have asked him a question, I am waiting for him to respond.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[ArshSingh1984]

ArshSingh1984 ji,

Guru Fateh.

What do you mean by OLD POST and OLD ACCOUNT? You said earlier you did not have another ID?

I am sorry to say, I can not trust you anymore because you are waffling.

Please come clean what you mean by the above so I can respond to your initial post.

Btw, do you know NavNav ji? As I have asked him a question, I am waiting for him to respond.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Buddy, I don't think I am the one who is "waffling". I said that "must" be an old post (I am NOT sure if I have an old account on here, and I thought you were referring to it).
I don't think you have an answer, so I will label you as ignorant and bigoted. See? I can play the stupid diversion and division games, too. Response please.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Buddy, I don't think I am the one who is "waffling". I said that "must" be an old post (I am NOT sure if I have an old account on here, and I thought you were referring to it).
I don't think you have an answer, so I will label you as ignorant and bigoted. See? I can play the stupid diversion and division games, too. Response please.

Arshsingh1984 ji,

Guru Fateh.

You seem very confused. Is Nav nav your old ID? Just answer yes or no.

How old is the ID and when did you post under NavNav? Let's be honest as people.

I have all the answers for you, mate but I have the feeling that you are not being honest?

So, respond to the above, then we can interact.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Why are you reluctant and nervous about coming clean?

 

[ArshSingh1984]

Arshsingh1984 ji,

Guru Fateh.

You seem very confused. Is Nav nav your old ID? Just answer yes or no.

How old is the ID and when did you post under NavNav? Let's be honest as people.

I have all the answers for you, mate but I have the feeling that you are not being honest?

So, respond to the above, then we can interact.



Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Why are you reluctant and nervous about coming clean?

I see, so you don't understand how to debate. You have no idea how to reply to my pro-bipartisan post, so now you are just doing Ad Homs.
You have NO answers. I am NOT navnav. If you read my post above you would see what I meant.
Let's face it, you hate radhasoamis, and any dissenting voices. You are now trying your hardest to attack a voice of reason, as if that makes your voice of hatred any more legitimate. The current divide between Radhasoamis and Sikhs are because of people like you who are paranoid and intolerant of change.
You are not going to respond to this; I know this, you know this. So just come out and say it. You hate radhasoamis, nirankaris, ravidasis, etc. You are the type of person who will walk into a ravidasi gurdwara, and shoot up the place.
You are a common bigot, so please just come clean.
Why, and really ask yourself this, would I claim to have two accounts that posted ONE RIGHT AFTER THE OTHER? That makes absolutely no sense. I repeat, I thought you may have been referring to an OLD account, not a RECENT one. But hey, Logic isn't your forté.

 

[navnav]

This just sounds like a HUGE excuse you can't answer his post because you think he's me? RIGHT! More like you have nothing to say because arshsingh1984 summed it up pretty clearly. You do not represent Sikhism but act as though you believe the pure teachings. WAIT! Is that not what you accuse RS of doing? Oh I see he's just better at your game. How about you try another tactic maybe preaching the actual teachings of the gurus? I don't just a thought.