Folks
Sorry for back-tracking..I am catching up and want to take this opportunity to clarify as best as I can where I stand. I will start of with some quotes from NavNav Ji and then go on from there. I appreciate things have moved on rather quickly overnight in UK time and hope you will not mind this indulgence on my part in what will be a rather lengthy post
Thank you
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(My original comment in red, NavNav’s reply in blueand my current reply in green)
I choose not to agree with it, that is my choice
Yes everyone has the freedom of religion, but also an obligation to respect other beliefs.Very Good. What respect have you shown to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in your posts to date?
But RS go beyond that simple concept with the concept of a Perfect Master...a Sat Guru
Yes they do and again no you don’t have to believe anything but yes you do have to respect others beliefs.Respect yes and to a certain point. I will elaborate further below.
As I have said on more than one occasion already, I do not recognize the alleged divinity of the RS Masters...not a single one of them has done anything to demonstrate divinity
I agree with that but what has the guru granth sahib done to be divine or much less a guru? And not just a msg of the gurus.The answer to that question is in the first bit of the title of this thread you have been commenting so freely on
But they are quite clever in selling the teacher concept which makes perfect sense and then adding the trimmings of a Perfect Master with it
Overall I do agree with that. Religion is all about selling an invisible product and it does consist of a lot of sneaky marketing ploys in order to gain power. But again that’s not just RS. As Bill Maher put it religions keep getting crazier in order keep up with each other and keep the masses entertained.Good, some consensus at last!
Although I can't help thinking you might be backing the wrong horse
I don’t think any human being has the intellect to make that kind of a judgment. Just worry about your individual path and let others be concerned with theirs.Fair enough point, and I guess I should have said “in my opinion” as I do have the capacity and intellect to express an opinion on the matter.
What exactly are you hoping to achieve here?
I hope more people can start using their minds and not offer it up to one single religion, because all the religions preaches good things. But in the end of the day. The bad people will see the bad things and good people will see the good in every religion, end of story.
Laudable in intent but difficult in practice. Most religions have articles of faith that are fundamental to their identity. So there is only so far you can take this…I will elaborate further below.
Every sentence in modern English can have different meanings. So its almost obvious that Sanskrit and Gurmukhi are not easily translated. Therefore, a lot can be lost in translation and that is why it should be modernize with civilization.Ok. But in order to have some sort of direction, there has to be an overall standard at some point. You can’t keep on re-interpreting things to suit your current state of thinking otherwise you would be as well creating your own path.
Should I put up similar posts like: this is what the Buddhists believe, this is what the Jewish believe, this is what Hindus believe, this is what Scientologists believe, this is what Jedi believe....and I do not care what you personally think and we won't find out until we die
Yes if it’s relevant always bring up the philosophies of different religions and understand their teachings and try to understand life in general by yourself for some time without any scriptures. Figure out how relevant the teachings are in your own life.Actually I do and have been for a very long time! But I am going to re-state the point I was making below.
If you want to talk about Atheism. Let’s talk about Atheism.. there's a few existing threads to choose from
I like how you said if you want to talk about atheism let's talk about. Here are the threads lol can people not make up their own minds? What we have to understand is that everyone has an agenda. Every website and yes every thread! In that case, why are you here at all? I don’t think I know everything. I don’t want to do all the hard work of finding answers in isolation either when a forum like this can give me instant access to a wealth of knowledge and wisdom across the planet. But then again, I guess I’m just not as arrogant as you are either…….
Whatever you are taught when you're a kid is what you're going to believe when you're older. Fair to say?
Not always, No, as I have been brought up in the RS faith as my Mother was RS as well and this is why I have some knowledge and experience of it. In fact, I have had many more years exposure to it than you have lived. I daresay I have attended many more Satsangs than you have as well from the Masters themselves and local preachers.
If you grow up Sikh you will most likely identify with Sikhism. But since everyone has different interpretations of what is the most important aspect of Sikhism most people cannot understand another person’s interpretations. I'm not any better or worse of a Sikh than anyone else. I may not believe in the 5ks or believing the granth sahib is divine of which too there is no proof but I consider myself the same amount of Sikh. As long as you are happy with yourself then that’s fine. I suspect there will be many others on this forum who would vehemently disagree with what you have just said and that’s fine as well, as they have as much right to disagree with your position, as you do to state it
Overall, its just so easy to insult RS while being so blind about Sikhism, can anyone just come up with good ideologies anymore? Can we not have intellectual debates anymore? Humanity had very intelligent debates 10000 years ago!
Did they really? Like what for example?
I would like to think we have developed intellectually to some extent not just our science.In my humble opinion, intellectual debates require a meaningful statement of one’s own position and then acknowledgement of an alternative reasoned viewpoint without accusing the other person of intolerance. I will expand on this further below.
My Dear NavNav Ji
This will be my last post to you on this thread as by the end of this I will have said everything I need to say to in terms of where I stand on this matter. You are welcome to reply with your customary stubbornness and convenient ignorance of specific issues that I raise which are clearly too difficult for you to answer. Like the divergence of RS lineages to name just one or their secrecy around the Naam that is given at initiation….
So let’s explore some of the views you have expressed to date.
You said:
“The same respect you want for your beliefs does not seem to be reciprocated on your end, but you do want those same freedoms for yourself.”
So, you talk about acknowledging other faiths and accepting them. Ok, that is certainly not a bad thing when we think about all the problems we have in Global Society today.
But the reality is there is only so far we can take this before we start to hit mutually exclusive contradictions e.g. the necessity of a living human Perfect Master vs. the Guruship conferred by a former living human Perfect Master on Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which has been the theme of this thread. But let’s look further afield. Christians believe in Resurrection whereas Hindus believe in Reincarnation.
Would you accuse Christians of being intolerant if they refused to accept Reincarnation?
Would you accuse Hindus of being intolerant if they refused to accept Resurrection?
I could say the sky is purple and you could say No, it’s blue. And I could say No it’s purple.
Should I accuse you of being close minded?
You also said:
“The only problem you have with RS is that they think differently then you and have different beliefs”
And why is that a problem?
Don’t all religions have fundamental differences between them?
Now let’s return to that comment you made along the lines of (and I am para-phrasing here): “Well this is what the RS believe and I don’t care if you believe it and we won’t know the truth until we die”
Please forgive my rudeness here but for me, that statement was just plain stupid.
I am no advocate of Scientology but I could come on this thread and say, “Well this is what Scientologists believe and I don’t care if you agree with it and we won’t know the truth of the matter until we die”
What actually have I achieved in making that statement?
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
I still remain uncertain as to what your position is.
Can I just ask you to say what YOU believe and why YOU believe it.
You talked about having intellectual debates. Well, you should accept what I have asked of you here is the most basic requirement for such a discussion. I have always stated my position and backed it up with why I believe it to be so. You should do the same, otherwise you have no position in a debate and therefore no credibility whatsoever.
If you have beliefs and they are as strong as you think they are, then they should be able to withstand some modest cross-examination from someone like myself. I am just an ordinary person like you. I am not particularly enlightened or gifted in any esoteric knowledge. But at least I can come on a forum like this and state a clear position and have a clear debate!
Clearly the case for a living human Perfect Master is not proven. All you provided was a statement from one such individual justifying their own existence! You know, if he had actually said, you don’t really need me after all but I am here to help, support and guide those who ask for it, then I, personally, would have many more times respect for him.
But as it stands, you have applied a bit of circular reasoning there by using that which is to be proven as the source of its own proof!
You talk freely of tolerance for other paths which I agree with and applaud you for that stance. But I don’t see you following through on that commitment….
I noted previously that Buddhists, Jewish, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and countless others seem to get by just fine without the presence of a living human Perfect Master and you again accused me of being intolerant of the RS position
So, can I just ask you, in your head, at what point should/can tolerance become acknowledgement of a fundamental difference? Where believers of one path cannot accept an article of faith from another path as it completely contradicts and goes against a key article of their own faith?
I agree with you that people use religious differences as justification for terrible acts against their fellow Man. But I am not going to tar everyone with the same brush. The differences are there and they define the different religions and add to the colour and diversity of our Global Society. People are allowed to say they don’t accept the necessity of a living human Perfect Master because they are happy to accept the Guruship of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
For you to say otherwise is a clear reflection of your own intolerance, despite what you claim
In your replies to me, you appear keen to regard me as intolerant when I refuse to compromise a fundamental belief
I honestly don't think that is fair
So let's do a little experiment and turn this around shall we?
Why don't I say, I don't believe a living human Perfect Master is absolutely necessary because I believe in the Guruship of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Note, in making such a statement, I have not said living human Perfect Masters are bad, I am just saying they are not absolutely necessary.
How many RS would be tolerant of that positron?
How many in the interests of how was it you put it again:
“The same respect you want for your beliefs does not seem to be reciprocated on your end, but you do want those same freedoms for yourself.”
Would you need 2 hands to count them? I wonder…
You know it's a free country, we have the privilege to state our position in a reasoned manner without being accused of intolerance. And we can agree to disagree
Finally, someone once said to me there's always 3 sides to a story….. there’s your side, the other person’s side and then the actual truth of the matter!
So on that note, I will leave you NavNav Ji and wish you well in pursuing whatever beliefs make you happy.
Good luck and all the best.
Christ. Answer
