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Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Ishna

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Mod note:
Major thread maintenance has occurred affecting the entire thread up to this point. Utmost care has been taken to ensure nothing has been omitted. As most maintenance involved removing visible redundant HTML and MSOffice tags from around Gurmukhi text, if anything has been removed from the Gurbani I apologise profusely. Please PM me and I will fix it, and any other problems users may come across.
Thanks.
 

ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

GURU's SIKH SANGAT JI,

The thought process must be shared in each GURUDWARA to dispel the doubts on the issue

Conclusion of thoughts and discussion is "MUKT"

and

"MUKTI" comes while living with all thoughts "CONCLUDED" which normally happens during "DEATH" of being.

"GURUSIKH" gets it while "Living"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
 

notanotherloginplease

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Isnt it like "I can do whatever Iwant to do, then Go for ganges bath/hajj and all will be washed away".

Every action has a reaction, that's how it works here.
 
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Apr 12, 2007
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You don't have to breastfeed a child but can it survive any other way? I like the way the Chinese eat in accordance with no hidden obligations. The whole process is thoroughly extreme when it comes to eating. So eat a nutritionally balanced diet as civilised humans if you cannot achieve that without thought's then maybe the environment needs addressing to another source (space maybe? Lol). For some it doesn't matter what they eat anything is justified. If Guru Gobind Singh ji was alive here today and asked me to take the position of his son on the ultimate battlefield I would have gladly obliged. From knowing who and what they were and what they lived for. What an honour that would have been to have been able to see them survive in Sikhi's honour and for them to live and eat another day. I would have been humbled to have been asked to form such a seva. They rever Guru Gobind Singh Ji now but from the thousands of followers of sikhi at the time it was unable to perform a seva. Waheguru ji ki khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fathe. Don't let people control you or tell you how to eat or think, from the above articles the points picked as an explanation to the guiding shabads are for the individual and seems more in tune about the vessel=flesh and the souls relationship, then daily dietary requirements. Although a declaration of decency is a must for a peaceful existence.
 
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Sherdil

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Sikhi doesn't promote or condone the eating of meat. What Gurbani says is that everything is made from the same clay. This includes plants and animals. They come from the same source. Therefore if you eat one but make a fuss about the other, it shows that you lack the fundamental understanding that all things are one.

Some put forward the notion that plants do not suffer when you kill them. How do we really know for sure? Plants are much further removed from us than our animal brethren. Just because they don't have a face doesn't mean they don't suffer in some sort of way. Our ability to empathize with a plant is much less than our ability to empathize with our fellow animals. If we euthanized the animals in a non-painful manner, instead of killing them with traditional methods, would the meat then be sanctified for consumption?

GGS, page 143:

ਮਃ ੧ ॥

मः १ ॥

Mėhlā 1.

First Mehl:

ਵੇਖੁ ਜਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਟਿਆ ਕਟਿ ਕੁਟਿ ਬਧਾ ਪਾਇ ॥

वेखु जि मिठा कटिआ कटि कुटि बधा पाइ ॥

vekẖ jė miṯẖā kati▫ā kat kut baḏẖā pā▫e.

Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

ਖੁੰਢਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਦੇਨਿ ਸੁ ਮਲ ਸਜਾਇ ॥

खुंढा अंदरि रखि कै देनि सु मल सजाइ ॥

Kẖundẖā anḏar rakẖ kai ḏen so mal sajā▫e.

and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ਰਸੁ ਕਸੁ ਟਟਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਪੈ ਤੈ ਵਿਲਲਾਇ ॥

रसु कसु टटरि पाईऐ तपै तै विललाइ ॥

Ras kas tatar pā▫ī▫ai ṯapai ṯai villā▫e.

What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

ਭੀ ਸੋ ਫੋਗੁ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਦਿਚੈ ਅਗਿ ਜਾਲਾਇ ॥

भी सो फोगु समालीऐ दिचै अगि जालाइ ॥

Bẖī so fog samālī▫ai ḏicẖai ag jālā▫e.

And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਠੈ ਪਤਰੀਐ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਕਾ ਆਇ ॥੨॥

नानक मिठै पतरीऐ वेखहु लोका आइ ॥२॥

Nānak miṯẖai paṯrī▫ai vekẖhu lokā ā▫e. ||2||

Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

If you wish to eat meat, then you should be free to do so. If you want to be vegetarian or vegan then go ahead. But to dictate your lifestyle to others on the basis of what is morally or religiously permissible is foolery. Hence the opening line "Fools wrangle over meat and flesh".
 

notanotherloginplease

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Sikhi doesn't promote or condone the eating of meat. What Gurbani says is that everything is made from the same clay. This includes plants and animals. They come from the same source. Therefore if you eat one but make a fuss about the other, it shows that you lack the fundamental understanding that all things are one.
Sikhi actually forbids from killing creatures for pleasure/eating them. Its a matter of individual understanding. Those who want to eat meat will understand gurbani from their own point of view without actually thinking from perspective of gurus who wrote bani.

Fundamental understanding:

Gurbani says everything is made by same clay, but it also divides living beings into 5 forms based on their awareness of life and activity of 5 elements.
Plants and Animals differ in their characteristics, so do Humans/animals/plants/birds. Killing plants incur a karma which have to be paid but it is lesser as compared to killing animals. Even people without much spiritual inclination understand this. Thats why plucking a flower from someones' house does not have that much punishment as is of killing someone's dog or cat , and killing a dog or cat does not have that severe punishment as of killing a person.
 

notanotherloginplease

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Some put forward the notion that plants do not suffer when you kill them. How do we really know for sure? Plants are much further removed from us than our animal brethren. Just because they don't have a face doesn't mean they don't suffer in some sort of way. Our ability to empathize with a plant is much less than our ability to empathize with our fellow animals.
Plants do suffer but it is degree of consciousness and amount of active elements pertaining in them which differentiate them from rest of the creation. They only have element of water being most active and other are almost null. that results in us humans having less empathy with plants than animals.

Kindly read this article to lear more about 5 elements
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/panch-tattva-a-perspective-from-sri-guru-granth-sahib.40057/

While we are here in this creation, the law of 5 elements is enforced on us.
 

notanotherloginplease

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If you wish to eat meat, then you should be free to do so. If you want to be vegetarian or vegan then go ahead. But to dictate your lifestyle to others on the basis of what is morally or religiously permissible is foolery. Hence the opening line "Fools wrangle over meat and flesh".
The word 'wish' is causing all the problems. What we wish is not always good for us. I am not dictating my lifestyle , i am trying to explain the lifestyle which gurbani wants us to follow and some fellows have just mended that lifestyle to suit their own wishes.

Fools wrangle over meat and flesh- It is for those who dont even understand the Fundamentals of life but still argue over food. Kindly read this for more clarity,its very well explained :
  1. http://www.panthic.org/articles/4432
 

Sherdil

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Gurbani says everything is made by same clay, but it also divides living beings into 5 forms based on their awareness of life and activity of 5 elements.
Plants and Animals differ in their characteristics, so do Humans/animals/plants/birds. Killing plants incur a karma which have to be paid but it is lesser as compared to killing animals. Even people without much spiritual inclination understand this. Thats why plucking a flower from someones' house does not have that much punishment as is of killing someone's dog or cat , and killing a dog or cat does not have that severe punishment as of killing a person.
On what scale does one measure the worth of one life form vs another? If any such scale exists, then it was surely made by man and not the Divine. It is man who places himself at the top of the totem pole and then dictates the worth of other life forms according to his own created system of virtues. In this respect, Humans are the Brahmans of the Animal Kingdom. Karma doesn't reside in action, it lies in intention. Killing an ant out of spite is much worse than killing a dog to put it out if it's misery. It is the intention behind the action that takes one closer or further to the Divine in one's mind. We exchange selfishness for Divinity. This is the only price to be paid.

GGS, page 988:

ਸਭੈ ਘਟ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮਾ ਬੋਲੈ ॥

सभै घट रामु बोलै रामा बोलै ॥

Sabẖai gẖat rām bolai rāmā bolai.

Within all hearts, the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks.

ਰਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

राम बिना को बोलै रे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Rām binā ko bolai re. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Who else speaks, other than the Lord? ||1||Pause||

ਏਕਲ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੁੰਜਰ ਚੀਟੀ ਭਾਜਨ ਹੈਂ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥

एकल माटी कुंजर चीटी भाजन हैं बहु नाना रे ॥

Ėkal mātī kunjar cẖītī bẖājan haiʼn baho nānā re.

Out of the same clay, the elephant, the ant, and the many sorts of species are formed.

ਅਸਥਾਵਰ ਜੰਗਮ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਮ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥੧॥

असथावर जंगम कीट पतंगम घटि घटि रामु समाना रे ॥१॥

Asthāvar jangam kīt paṯangam gẖat gẖat rām samānā re. ||1||

In stationary life forms, moving beings, worms, moths and within each and every heart, the Lord is contained. ||1||

ਏਕਲ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਰਾਖੁ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਅਉਰ ਤਜਹੁ ਸਭ ਆਸਾ ਰੇ ॥

एकल चिंता राखु अनंता अउर तजहु सभ आसा रे ॥

Ėkal cẖinṯā rākẖ ananṯā a▫or ṯajahu sabẖ āsā re.

Remember the One, Infinite Lord; abandon all other hopes.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਏ ਨਿਹਕਾਮਾ ਕੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੩॥

प्रणवै नामा भए निहकामा को ठाकुरु को दासा रे ॥२॥३॥

Paraṇvai nāmā bẖa▫e nihkāmā ko ṯẖākur ko ḏāsā re. ||2||3||

Naam Dayv prays, I have become dispassionate and detached; who is the Lord and Master, and who is the slave? ||2||3||

Plants do suffer but it is degree of consciousness and amount of active elements pertaining in them which differentiate them from rest of the creation. They only have element of water being most active and other are almost null. that results in us humans having less empathy with plants than animals.
The meaning of empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. It has nothing to with the proportion of the 5 elements in another being with relation to yourself. The 5 elements are a primitive way of understanding the makeup of the universe. It is pseudoscience. If Gurbani were written today, instead of hundreds of years ago, it would surely have replaced the 5 elements with a mention of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc. These elements are the fundamental building blocks of all life forms. This is the clay that Gurbani alludes to.

Plants provide the oxygen that makes life on earth possible for animals like us. Without them, we wouldn't exist. They give us much more than the sacred cow does, yet people kill the plants and worship the cow.
 

Inderjeet Kaur

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I am a vegetarian and not a vegan. The idea of putting the corpse of a dead animal in my mouth nauseates me. I leave it to others to do as they please.

I just came across an article which clearly states that Sikhs ate meat in 1798.

Rare 1798 Welshman’s Account of Sikhs Discovered
Extract from the book

“The city of Lahore is next, about a hundred and fifty miles distant from Moultan. It is the capital of the Seiks, a people which started up in the fifteenth century, under a Hindoo of the name of Nanuck, born in 1470. They are a set of religionists, tolerant in matters of faith like the Hindoos, but, unlike them, admit proselytes. They require conformity in certain
signs and ceremonies, but in other respects are pure monotheists; they worship God alone,
without image or intermediation. They may be called the reformers of India. They retain also a calvinistical principle, and take an oath ever to oppose a monarchical government.

They eat any kind of meat excepting beef, for like the Hindoos they hold the ox in the utmost veneration. Their general food is pork, probably because it is forbidden by the Mahometans, whom they hold in abhorrence. Their army consists wholly of horse; they can raise a hundred thousand cavalry, and make war in the most savage mode. They kept long concealed or unnoticed, at length became formidable by their courage and enterprize, and extended their conquests over Lahore, Moultan, and the western parts of Delhi.”2
Reference

1. The National Library of Wales
2. Thomas Pennant (1798): The View of Hindustan Vol 1 & 2. Printed by Henry Hughs,
London
 

Sherdil

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I doubt they venerated the ox. It has no significance in Sikhi. More likely they understood its symbolic importance to the various Hindu traditions, and treated it with respect out of consideration for the religious sentiments of the majority community of the subcontinent. A beast of burden like an ox is worth more alive than dead anyway. Pigs on the other hand hold no esteemed position in Islam. Muslims avoid pork because they consider it to be an unclean animal.
 

notanotherloginplease

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Plants provide the oxygen that makes life on earth possible for animals like us. Without them, we wouldn't exist. They give us much more than the sacred cow does, yet people kill the plants and worship the cow.
If this is the case, and living beings with least importance in world should be killed and eaten, then why not start with Human Beings with special needs, they are sometimes unable to take care of themselves. Why is it considered a murder? why have pity on them? Then why not kill all the poor people Africa, they dont do much for us.
 

Inderjeet Kaur

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I don't know how accurate it is, but it does say unequivocally that Sikhs eat meat. Certainly, Sikhs never venerated the ox (cow) but well might have refrained from eating beef out of respect for the Hindus.

I agree that this piece proves nothing; it is just one more piece of evidence to be considered.
 

kds1980

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I wouldnt say its a confirmation that sikhs ate meat. Its more an observance.

same way like most western people say to me, "you dont drink alcohol, but sikhs drink alcohol" .
Very simple answer, Sikhs in 18th century fought wars and lived in jungles.That type of lifestyle require High calorie and high protein food.In 18th century Food sources were limited, it was not possible to fight wars without adding animal protein in diet as in jungles wild pigs were easily available.So they ate various type of meat to keep them fit and strong.There is granth called jhatka prasad granth , it is written in it that Jassa singh ahluwalia used to eat half bakra at one go.The strength of those puratan singh's was also phenominal
 

notanotherloginplease

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Very simple answer, Sikhs in 18th century fought wars and lived in jungles.That type of lifestyle require High calorie and high protein food.In 18th century Food sources were limited, it was not possible to fight wars without adding animal protein in diet as in jungles wild pigs were easily available.So they ate various type of meat to keep them fit and strong.There is granth called jhatka prasad granth , it is written in it that Jassa singh ahluwalia used to eat half bakra at one go.The strength of those puratan singh's was also phenominal
There is a granth called Jhatka Nikedh granth. It is written in it that real sikhs never ate meat and never asked anybody to eat it. Their food was naam, and satnaam was powerful enough to keep their physical bodies healthy and strong..
 

Sikhilove

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Lol! I remember writing on this thread back in the day, almost 10 years back and I see that people are still wrangling over flesh nearly 10 yrs on!!
 

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