Yoga V/s Simran V/s Meditation?

[BhagatSingh]

"....much of my creativity came from the fact that I looked for the hidden meaning behind every event in my life. I now look at every thing that happen to me and ask myself, if this event were a metaphor in the poem of my life and what it might mean ?.....I assume that behind every development is something else, something meaningful, a hidden gift, that if received with grace and used with reverence, invites me a step higher on my journey".

Interestingly enough I never used to see if there was any meaning behind events, behing what was happening to me. While I am still skeptical of all my thoughts and experiences, I actually take the time out to assess my life and see what kind of meanings emerge. It's interesting the kinds of things that come up.

I would take issue with this, I have no fear and no anxiety, I have a huge compassion

You are reading my posts as if they are binary. Black or white. When it's not this or that but a continuum of greys.
I said meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety and increases compassion even in an already fearless, compassion-ful person. It's a tool to gain those things, amongst others. So if you think you are not anxious or fearful and have all the compassion you need then good for you. If you think meditation cannot help further reduce your negative emotions and pump up things like compassion even further, then move on.

I also note you have answered none of my questions so far, so is it just rhetoric?

You said you are not interested in meditation several times while I was trying to communicate somethings to you. There are other people in this thread who are interested in meditation, who are making the effort to post and to talk about Gurbani. I have a limited amount of time in my day to reply to posts. Therefore, I am prioritizing other people's questions over yours. I am sorry I just don't have time right now. Maybe in the future.

 

[BhagatSingh]

I can read Gurmukhi and I have a couple of resources for translating it. I agree, srigranth's resources are great!

They truly are!
When did that happen? how did you learn? i remember several years ago you couldn't.

What you have is the practise of yoga and meditation and the resulting sensation.

Yea but not just sensations but also things like reduction in negative emotions like anxiety and increase in positive emotions like compassion.

And all this must be done ONLY using the practises of yoga and meditation.

1-5 sure. But this? No!
Eckharte Tolle, for example, just suffered all his life and lived in a state of depression and anxiety. One day randomly he became enlightened and he went from there.

So it's not as black and white as you think, and really it doesn't need to be as black and white, for it to be a science. For example Physics Question- is light a wave or a particle? The real answer is grey, not black and white.

Please keep in mind I'm not arguing against oneness and the value of practices to realise and live in that state of oneness. I'm just saying that meditation/yoga shouldn't be called something it is not (a science), or else it is open to a level of scrutiny it would fail to satisfy. All because it's not 'science' doesn't mean it is any less real, practical or applicable . And calling it 'science' does not give it any more credibility.

I already understand these things.

noun: science

1. the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

The definition above is biased because it doesn't include the subjective and spiritual world. Let me mend this definition.


noun: science

1. the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of phenomenon through observation and experiment.

This is better. Because it now includes Psychology and Yog Vidya. For example Carl Jung who is a big name is Psychology is not studying material or physical phenomenon, he studying spiritual phenomenon. Yet it is still science.

Basically material science is a study of material phenomenon. <- In western culture only these are recognized as "true sciences". Those born here have never heard of such a thing as "study of subjective experience" that sounds like hokum to them. This is why the google definition is biased because it''s a product of western culture.

Spiritual science is a study of spiritual phenomenon and subjective experience. Yog vidya is a spiritual science. <- In eastern cultures these too are true sciences.

The Yog Sutra of Patanjali starts with -
योगश्चित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः ॥२॥
yogaś-citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ ||2||
When you are in a state of yoga, all misconceptions (vrittis) that can exist in the mutable aspect of human beings (chitta) disappear. ||2||

This is the hypothesis. And it goes to define the misconceptions. It says there are five of them.

Five types of misconceptions are -
1. Measurement/perception (another word would be sensory experience)
2. Errors (in measurement/perception)
3. Imagination/Mind-made forms
4. Sleep
5. Memory.


Then it goes on and you can read the rest of the experiment here-
http://www.ashtangayoga.info/source-texts/yoga-sutra-patanjali/

And just because I like to stir things up sometimes, I note that meditation and yoga and conspicuously absent from Guru Nanak's workshop, even though you say he is describing the meditation process.

But first, can you talk more about how this 38th paurhi of Jap Ji Sahib on panna 8 is actually describing the meditation process, please?

Well if I said-
fruit
often red, sometimes green, or orangish
sweet, sugary
thin skin
brown tear-drop seeds
hard core with seeds
bitable by human jaw
size of a fist
give it your teacher and be called a teacher's pet
and so on.

What do you think I am talking about?
http://www.ashtangayoga.info/source-texts/yoga-sutra-patanjali/
Once you have tasted an apple, then when someone mentions apple or the qualities of apple then you can picture the apple in your mind. In fact, apple is so iconic, if I simply said "fruit" most people will think of the apple.

Similarly, if you meditate or even just read other parts of Guru Granth Sahib, then you'll know that shabad, even in isolation when you are only presented the shabad by itself, is talking about the meditation process.

Your translation of the word jat(u) [ਜਤੁ] here is fascinating.

Indeed! I also find it fascinating that we can even do this! Just a few years ago I would have rejected such a thing.
And needless to say it is very difficulty.

So when you click on ਜਤੁ or ਜਤ in Srigranth. Pay attention to the Gurmukhi translation rather than the english (which is wrong).

It says-
ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਸ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖਨਾ

ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ - are the organs that pick sensory information

ਵੱਸ - control (over the sense organs)

And part of gaining control over senses is learning to withdraw their outward-orientation and turn it inward. This is the starting point for advanced level introspection, advanced-level meditation.

You can also increase the amount of sensory information that those sense organs will receive, so it goes both ways. You can decrease the info or increase it. So you can control how much info you wish to receive from the world by simply going within and tuning the knobs of these sensory organs so to speak.

It is truly fascinating!

 

[Original]

Good morning All

Bhagat Singh, let me apologise for part of yesterday's conveyance, the writer of "....much of my creativity came from the fact that I looked for the hidden meaning behind every event in my life....." was Leonardo Da Vinci. Otherwise, your over all communication above, particularly the explanation and reasoning in response to Ishna's evaluations, is succiently written, well held position.

Moving on with a view to share some of Bhagat's obligations in addressing the sangat, I'd like to say very briefly, how important it is to remain grounded within the meaning of "sikh" [student]. The fact that you're reading this has all the connotations and the hallmarks of someone who is favoured by evolution to progress in one's quest for the meaning and purpose of life [shabd, or word, or universal consonance, or whatever]. Gur Ghar invites the human soul to reflect [veechar] now n then on the true purpose of human birth, which by virtue, you being a participator on this forum qualifies within the meaning of the word human soul.

Humankind, since the crack of dawn wanted to know everything. It is our insatiable quest that has made us what we are.....hunger for knowledge. The deeper the dive [veechar as thought process] the higher the transformation [human metamorphosis]. it is this transformation which the Gur Ghar describes as one of manmukh to gurmukh. That is to say, you reading this have already taken the initial steps for the manh [mind] to look towards the gur [shabd]. Hence, have unwittingly become gurmukh. To test what I'm saying is to pause here and ask yourself, am I enjoying the read ? If affirmative, consider blessed because the enjoyer is the "soul" - this is what Gur Ghar calls parmarath gyan [food for the soul, music notes in literature form].

Art and Science are two windows if you like, one looking out and the other looking in, albeit, at the one and the same thing. Through these two windows we have come this far as species. If the thing both Art n Science profess to substantiate is one and the same, Gur Ghar offers an alternative [Sikh] and called it "Ik On Kar".

Do you believe me ?

Enjoy the day, it's time for me to become one with nature [physical recreation, that is, training].

Good day !

 

[Harry Haller]

You are reading my posts as if they are binary.

yes, because that's how you write, black and white, definitively.

When it's not this or that but a continuum of greys.

no, its pretty black and white

I said meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety and increases compassion even in an already fearless, compassion-ful person. It's a tool to gain those things, amongst others

Oh that sounds quite nice and cosy, yeah that's pretty grey actually, but unfortunately what you actually said was

BhagatSingh said: ↑
let me repeat.
how does one lead a healthy life?
1. Exercise
2. Nutrition
3. Rest
4. Moral Conduct
5. Meditation

You cannot skip any of those.

which is not so grey, does meditation help with memory?

If you think meditation cannot help further reduce your negative emotions and pump up things like compassion even further, then move on.

no more than drugs can, just my opinion, sorry it is not the same as yours

You said you are not interested in meditation several times while I was trying to communicate somethings to you.

If you want to debate that's fine, if you just wish to proselytize without debate, that's different.

There are other people in this thread who are interested in meditation, who are making the effort to post and to talk about Gurbani. I have a limited amount of time in my day to reply to posts. Therefore, I am prioritizing other people's questions over yours. I am sorry I just don't have time right now. Maybe in the future.

hey, don't knock yourself out, whenever your ready, I know your a busy man.
We all have our callings, mine just happens to be laughing at naked emperors walking around with no clothes on-

 

[japjisahib04]

f you

I said meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety and increases compassion even in an already fearless, compassion-ful person. It's a tool to gain those things, amongst others. So if you think you are not anxious or fearful and have all the compassion you need then good for you

I am really shocked that meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety. Why don't we make an App and download on our phone to enjoy fearless life. Is it not contradictory that those who promoted meditation have recommended to be fearful of God. Gurmat meditation and prayer is to break wall of falsehood and become sachiar and for this Guru sahib have recommended a simple method to walk as per laws of nature and this law is written with us and it is only the human who revolts against His laws. Guru sahib says, ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਇਆ ਲਾਹਾ ਲੈਣਿ ॥ਲਗਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਕੁਫਕੜੇ ਸਭ ਮੁਕਦੀ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ you have been sent to walk as per laws of nature, what useless rituals are you attached to? Your life-night is coming to its end. ||1||Pause|| ' Moreover, where is this law written to sit like a duck and focus on a picture or on one word to waste your precious time. I am looking one pankti of a sabd which recommends to repeat and focus on a picture to automatically attain His grace as by meditating 'koi mughal n andha hova'.

Guru sahib have rightly said, 'ਭੋਲਾਵੜੈ ਭੁਲੀ ਭੁਲਿ ਭੁਲਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਣੀ ॥ ਪਿਰਿ ਛੋਡਿਅੜੀ ਸੁਤੀ ਪਿਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ it is adultery leaving His guidance behind but running after meditation thus gurbani cautions, 'ਐਸੀ ਕਲਾ ਨ ਖੇਡੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਗਇਆ ਹਾਰੀਐ ॥ SGGS 469 that you you get the entry to hear the inner voice. Rather focus 'ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥ And let God feel pride on you that by following guidance you brought harmony. And guru sahib says, 'ਓਥੈ ਸਚੇ ਹੀ ਸਚਿ ਨਿਬੜੈ ਚੁਣਿ ਵਖਿ ਕਢੇ ਜਜਮਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਮੁਹ ਕਾਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਚਾਲਿਆ ॥ only those who are sincere by contemplating on sabd' can hear the voice of conscience and all those hypocrate(meditators) are thrown out. SGGS.463.16.

 

[chazSingh]

My post wasn't directed at you but at Japji. But it's good to know where your strengths and weaknesses lie. I still accept you as a friend regardless of that.

Bhagat Ji

coming across your posts has compelled me to write to you...

firstly, good to hear from you again after so long...from your messages you sound like you're progressing very well on your path ji.

From my own experience of Simran - the process of remembering what has been forgotton - waheguru...i can confirm to you that indeed it has reduced my fears and anxieties...

a good friend of mine once used the following analogy...

if i told you there is a McDonalds restaurant on the top of mount everest...you would think i am crazy, deluded and have very liitle faith in this
if you decided to test this fact...and climb the mountain....your journey would start with a lot of anxiety, fear of the unknown, doubt etc etc...

now along the way, you have a few experiences that seem a little fearful..some falls, rocks falling down toward you...the thought arises to give up and return to the bottom...but something keeps you going

now imagine you're walking up...tired...exhausted....hungry....wondering why you even bothered....
and then.....wooooosh!!!!! you catch the smell of a McChicken Sandwich.....
imagine the boost of energy you receive.....OMG!....maybe this is real!!! maybe there really is a McDonalds at the top.!!!! wooohooooo
and you keep climbing...now you catch the smell of a Strawberry Milkshake....the fear just vanishing at these experiences....anxiety? what anxiety? full of energy...you climb on...and see the McDonalds sign hanging high over the horizon...

it just keep getting better and better...whats to fear now? whats to be anxious of? you now KNOW!!!!

this is how i felt when the manifestations started within...fears and anxieties just start to go away...and i started to 'know'...'remember'...but i'm still way back at the 'smelling the McChicken sandwich phase...' ... but it's freaking amazing to know this shizzle is real...

God Bless Ji....Keep in touch (PM me...I won;t be posting much...need to find a spot in the jungle to meditate...it's so hard nowadays as they keep chopping the forests down!)

 

[chazSingh]

actually..i'm at the 'smelling the Spicy Veggie Deli wrap' ... no meat for me nowadays

 

[BhagatSingh]

Moving on with a view to share some of Bhagat's obligations in addressing the sangat, I'd like to say very briefly, how important it is to remain grounded within the meaning of "sikh" [student].

Bhagat Ji

coming across your posts has compelled me to write to you...

Really, these two posts, just wow! Very beautifully written and explained!

If you want to debate that's fine, if you just wish to proselytize without debate, that's different.

Harry your recent post indicates your are quite agitated that I am not responding to your posts. But frankly, there cannot be a debate with those who -
1. refuse to read scientific papers and keep up with new knowledge
2. those who refuse to read Gurbani and learn from original meanings
3. those who speak over-confidently about an acitivty, whilst simultaneously refusing to try the activity in question

If you can't do at least 1 of the 3 then you have to trust me. Since you don't trust me nor accept my views, there is nothing I have left to say to you.

Goodbye! (I'll see you in PMs)

actually..i'm at the 'smelling the Spicy Veggie Deli wrap' ... no meat for me nowadays

I like it! Gotta chow down those hare patte (which also sounds like Leaves of Hari

(That's a joke for you Harry)

 

[Admin]

Really, these two posts, just wow! Very beautifully written and explained!

Can you explain the wow factor in these two posts...

We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let us behave like a Sayana Bacha!

 

[BhagatSingh]

I am really shocked that meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety.

Don't be. This is common knowledge amongst scientists nowadays.

While I was studying Psychology at university, I read tons of scientific papers on the beneficial effects of meditation on the brain as part of my assignments and sometimes just for fun. I came to understand the benefits of meditation.

And in my Psychology classes, whenever I brought up meditation to my Psychology Professors, they would answer me and then go on to use that opportunity to briefly explain to the students how meditation is beneficial. The ones who did meditation often had more to add to my comment or question.

Why don't we make an App and download on our phone to enjoy fearless life.

That would be amazing indeed. How do you propose we make this App?

Is it not contradictory that those who promoted meditation have recommended to be fearful of God.

Not at all. I mean, yea at first, I too thought it was contradictory, as well, and I didn't really get what fear of God is. I mean how do you become afraid of Him? How do you make that into a method and apply it? I had a lot of questions.

But later I found out that, in reality, that statement is not contradictory. If you understand 1. what fear of God is and 2. why Guru Nanak Dev ji says to have it, then it won't see contradictions anymore.

Would you like me to share with you why Guru Sahib says to have fear of God?

Gurmat meditation and prayer is to break wall of falsehood and become sachiar and for this Guru sahib have recommended a simple method to walk as per laws of nature and this law is written with us and it is only the human who revolts against His laws.

Indeed! I completely agree with that word-for-word. So let's find out where are disagreement is.

Guru sahib says, ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਇਆ ਲਾਹਾ ਲੈਣਿ ॥ਲਗਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਕੁਫਕੜੇ ਸਭ ਮੁਕਦੀ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ you have been sent to walk as per laws of nature, what useless rituals are you attached to? Your life-night is coming to its end. ||1||Pause||

It doesn't mention meditation, it fact later in that shabad Guru sahib says to meditate. So which ਕੁਫਕੜੇ - fruitless actions is Guru Sahib talking about?

Moreover, where is this law written to sit like a duck and focus on a picture or on one word to waste your precious time.

1. Where is the law written that if you don't eat healthy, you will not be healthy?
2. Where is the law written that if you throw a ball upwards that it must come down?
3. Where is the law written that time can be wasted?

That's the same place it is written that if you "sit like a duck and focus on a picture or on one word" then you might see God sooner.

That's a funny way of putting it, and I know very well, it sounds absolutely ridiculous. Even to me right now it sounds kinda rubbish lol. But I assure you from personal experience there is something to what Guru Sahib is trying to teach us when he says to - meditate on God by chanting with your tongue and focusing on the sound and the word.

I am looking one pankti of a sabd which recommends to repeat and focus on a picture to automatically attain His grace as by meditating 'koi mughal n andha hova'.

In what other shabads does Guru Sahib tell us to do meditation?

Guru sahib have rightly said, 'ਭੋਲਾਵੜੈ ਭੁਲੀ ਭੁਲਿ ਭੁਲਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਣੀ ॥ ਪਿਰਿ ਛੋਡਿਅੜੀ ਸੁਤੀ ਪਿਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ it is adultery leaving His guidance behind but running after meditation thus gurbani cautions,'ਐਸੀ ਕਲਾ ਨ ਖੇਡੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਗਇਆ ਹਾਰੀਐ ॥ SGGS 469 that you you get the entry to hear the inner voice. Rather focus 'ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥ And let God feel pride on you that by following guidance you brought harmony. And guru sahib says, 'ਓਥੈ ਸਚੇ ਹੀ ਸਚਿ ਨਿਬੜੈ ਚੁਣਿ ਵਖਿ ਕਢੇ ਜਜਮਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਮੁਹ ਕਾਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਚਾਲਿਆ ॥ only those who are sincere by contemplating on sabd' can hear the voice of conscience and all those hypocrate(meditators) are thrown out. SGGS.463.16.

Where in that shabad, does Guru Sahib say that you shouldn't meditate?
Hint: it doesn't.

This is whole page of Guru Granth Sahib is good to know so why don't you also focus on shabads where he tells you to meditate, as well as these ones? ie why not also focus on other pages where meditation is prescribed by the doctor guru to us patients?

(Prescribed to those who are in need of it so that excludes you Harry, you are already an enlightened master)

 

[BhagatSingh]

Can you explain the wow factor in these two posts...

Sorry bhaji, if it wasn't clear already I can't explain it.

We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let us behave like a Sayana Bacha!

That is extremely rude. What nasty thing to say.
I am giving them a compliment because I enjoyed their posts. They know that and I know that but my compliment seems to be entirely lost on you. Hmm...

rather it makes them look like fakers...

...And if they sound fake to anyone here because I displayed my gratitude for their insights then there is something up with you guys, not them.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The meaning of Meditation in Gurbani has been ignored on purpose even when asked. Hence, it is futile to discuss "meditation" based on Gurbani without demonstrating what it truly means as per our Gurus in the SGGS, our only Guru.

This rather becomes a journey in the world of me-ism with the me's pounding their chests while mumbling something repeatedly. Nothing else. The name of this forum is Sikh Philosophy and all of us should adhere to that. One should never shy away from explaining the meaning of meditation as per Gurbani but rather be upfront and honest about it.

Tejwant Singh

 

[chazSingh]

Can you explain the wow factor in these two posts...

We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let is behave like a Sayana Bacha!

Wow...

As I sit here for morning contemplation...this is such a truly strange comment...and from the site admin?

Anyway. No love lost....thankfully only waheguru can really judge me back to thinking of my beloved.



God bless

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry your recent post indicates your are quite agitated that I am not responding to your posts

agitated?

yes, I am beside myself

 

[Harry Haller]

Wow...

As I sit here for morning contemplation...this is such a truly strange comment...and from the site admin?

Anyway. No love lost....thankfully only waheguru can really judge me back to thinking of my beloved.



God bless

enjoy your contemplation, I am enjoying my chocolate, we're both happy, I think what Adminji is trying to say is that trolling is not that hard to pick up on, however, that is the price of free speech.

I suppose the self appreciation society just looks funny from outside, from where I am sitting anway, I think its hilarious,

enjoy!

 

[Ishna]

Thank you for your reply, bhaji BhagatSingh..

They truly are!
When did that happen? how did you learn? i remember several years ago you couldn't.

I can read the Gurmukhi script, and I've been learning a bit about the grammar, but I still don't understand much of the Gurbani, and still need assistance from more learned people and dictionaries.

noun: science

1. the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

The definition above is biased because it doesn't include the subjective and spiritual world. Let me mend this definition.

noun: science

1. the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of phenomenon through observation and experiment.

This is better. Because it now includes Psychology and Yog Vidya. For example Carl Jung who is a big name is Psychology is not studying material or physical phenomenon, he studying spiritual phenomenon. Yet it is still science.

Basically material science is a study of material phenomenon. <- In western culture only these are recognized as "true sciences". Those born here have never heard of such a thing as "study of subjective experience" that sounds like hokum to them. This is why the google definition is biased because it''s a product of western culture.

Spiritual science is a study of spiritual phenomenon and subjective experience. Yog vidya is a spiritual science. <- In eastern cultures these too are true sciences.

Okay, I can appreciate there might be a cultural clash here. Despite your input, I have to maintain then that from the position of the "Western" definition of science, what you're describing still comes under pseudoscience.

If the "Eastern" definition embraces yoga/meditation as science, then that's fine.

Once you have tasted an apple, then when someone mentions apple or the qualities of apple then you can picture the apple in your mind. In fact, apple is so iconic, if I simply said "fruit" most people will think of the apple.

Similarly, if you meditate or even just read other parts of Guru Granth Sahib, then you'll know that shabad, even in isolation when you are only presented the shabad by itself, is talking about the meditation process.

This makes sense if you think the Gurbani is describing meditation. So far in my own studies, I do not think it is. To me, the Gurbani is talking about achieving an holistic state of mind and being that includes a deep, constant awareness of Ik Onkar which guides and influences our thoughts and actions.

Perhaps meditation fits in there as a tool to achieve this deep, constant awareness; I don't know yet. So many tools and techniques themselves are brushed aside by the Gurbani.

So when you click on ਜਤੁ or ਜਤ in Srigranth. Pay attention to the Gurmukhi translation rather than the english (which is wrong).

I don't quite have that level of understanding Punjabi yet.

It says-
ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਸ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖਨਾ

ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ - are the organs that pick sensory information

ਵੱਸ - control (over the sense organs)

And part of gaining control over senses is learning to withdraw their outward-orientation and turn it inward. This is the starting point for advanced level introspection, advanced-level meditation.

Thank you for the insight into the words! I love this!!

However, I don't quite agree with your point of view, but I'm not able to articulate why yet. I get this a lot; I tend to feel the Gurbani to make up for my lack of intellectual knowledge about the language. Quite often what I feel initially is later validated when I learn enough, intellectually. For now I can only assume my feeling is informed by what I've encountered in the past and isn't realised in my conscious mind yet.

 

[Original]

Can you explain the wow factor in these two posts...

We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let is behave like a Sayana Bacha!

Dear Admin Singh Ji

I hope I'm allowed the liberty to say a few words regarding your text above.

From a host [SPN] perspective, the getting caught up in philosophical assumptions and being emotional, brings about cognitive dissonance, in my view. Whereas, umpiring impartially the debate n discussions to hand, will in my opinion, either confirm the validity of the subject-matter or lead to improvement. This way, it not only increases one's knowledge, but enables individuals to orientate or reorientate themselves and their society for better, which in turn creates conditions for greater fulfilment of one's human potential. Evolution [growth] is fundamentally about relationships between organisms [Bhagat Singh] and their environments [SPN].

Divine grace operates unseen and expresses it self in special moments when it is so clearly revealed. Asking Bhagat Singh about the wow n wonder of his expression is like asking a woman, "where is your G spot?". Furthermore, compounding it with a value statement, that it's "old fashioned trolling" can only mean personal bias. Nothing wrong with that since bias is intrinsically natural and is used as tool to one's better judgment. But, not if you're a public body [SPN] where your judicial function is to regulate and not formulate. Bias in this regard is seen as a breach of what is otherwise, on your part, a duty to act fairly.

Personally speaking, Akal Purakh has conferred upon you [SPN] an obligation, a tremendous and a wonderful form of seva to spread the word of Nanank and bring cyber surfers to realise their true potential, believers n non believers alike. We've got beautiful riders n runners on this form who express openly their agendas and together we grow. Kindly watch us and when non- conformance an issue then reprimand.

Much obliged

 

[Harry Haller]

I think adminji is merely commenting on the collective oooohs and aaaaahs regarding the emperors new clothes, I got it......

 

[Original]

That's a funny way of putting it, and I know very well, it sounds absolutely ridiculous. Even to me right now it sounds kinda rubbish lol. But I assure you from personal experience there is something to what Guru Sahib is trying to teach us when he says to - meditate on God by chanting with your tongue and focusing on the sound and the word.

And, that "something" is your belief, that something is Sikhi. Here is little something for you Bhagat Singh:

Once, all night long a devotee was chanting "Allah!" until his lips grew sweet with praise of Him.The Devil came up to him: "Hey noisy one, after calling so many 'Allahs,' where is the response of 'Here I am' to all these 'Allahs'? I don't hear any response coming from the Throne - how long will you continue chanting 'Allah'?"

The devotee's heart broke and he fell asleep. The devotee in his dream saw a spiritual guide in radiant green, who spoke thus, "You've stopped praising God - why have you repented of having called Him?"
The devotee replied, "Because no 'Here I am' came to me in answer, I feared that I might be one who is denied His Door."
Said the spiritual guide, "God wants you to know that every 'Allah' of yours is His 'Here I am,'
and that your prayer and grief and longing are His message to you. God is telling you:
Your efforts to find a way to Me were My drawing you to Me, and it freed your feet from their bonds.
Your trepidation and your love are the rope to catch My blessing - beneath every 'O Lord' of yours
is many a 'Here I am' of Mine.' "

More another time, but by-the-by, Gur Teg Bahadhur sat for many years in meditation at Baba Bakala, now known as Gurdwara Bhora Sahib, latitude and longitude of Bakala is 7.11667 14.53333 respectively, in case your an ET and you don't know Sikh history [love n tell - joke].

 

[japjisahib04]

More another time, but by-the-by, Gur Teg Bahadhur sat for many years in meditation at Baba Bakala, now known as Gurdwara Bhora Sahib, latitude and longitude of Bakala is 7.11667 14.53333 respectively, in case your an ET and you don't know Sikh history

Pity why will Guru Tegh Bahadur sit in a bhora or Guru Gobind Singh do bhagati at Hemkunt Sahib in his previous life when as per gurmat there neither is previous life nor gurmat recommends to renounce family to do bhagati at mountains, especially when gurbani says, 'ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਭ ਦੇਖੇ ਜੋਇ ॥ ਊਹਾਂ ਤਉ ਜਾਈਐ ਜਉ ਈਹਾਂ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥ The wisdom of Ved/Puran is all within you why search all the way to mountains or other so called pilgrimages. SGGS.1195.14.

What is gurmat meditation or puja then? ਕੈਸੇ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ guru sahib answers ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਾਵਉ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੪॥ Surrender thought process which is not as per gurmat SGGS. 525-13. Now how to judge whether your thought process is as per gurmat ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਿਛੁਰੈ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਉਣੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ How can one meet the Lord? How one is separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? ||3|| SGGS.131. Oh my manh ਬਾਬਾ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਤਮ ਸੇ ਦਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਨੀਚ ਕਰਮ ਬਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.16 and guru sahib list 'neech karam' in 16th pauree of japjisahib. Throughout gurbani emphasis on bhebekh budhi and finally says, ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਮੈ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ॥ ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਬੇਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.641.18.' Thus gurmat meditation is cultivation of meaningful life by learning divine traits and not wasting time by focussing on one word.

Bhagat Singh - Gurbani has all answers of your question and I will be listing soon.