Yoga V/s Simran V/s Meditation?

[BhagatSingh]

Since the thread is Yoga vs Simran, it's actually not about meditation per se.

Not true.
You cannot discuss yog and simran without using the word meditation. By meditation I mean Dhyan. Meditation/Dhyan is a state of being that is focused single pointedly on something. Meditation is a fundamental part of Yog and Simran.

If you take meditation out, you have nothing left.

I think you two can take your debate to PMs or a new thread, don't you?

That said we can always take our chessboards and basketballs to a PM.

 

[Original]

Good morning everyone !

First n foremost, the discussion with Bhagat Singh was with a view to share, who like myself is that way inclined re "nam jap". Nam jap or nam simran in its wider meaning can mean lot of things and I think from a personal perspective it really is down to the individual what method is used, how it is recited, practiced, whether it'd be contemplated, meditated, etc. and to what end. For example, I now sit and meditate on the holy name [waheguru] the way it has been passed on to me as a "science" [subjective] - I believe in it therefore I do it. By science, I mean, try it and realise because it is "alive" - of course, this statement holds true for the practitioner and not for the sceptical. And, when taken to account for its "objectivity" testing it is reduced or categorised if you like [academically] to one's system of "belief". That is to say, it is not classed as knowledge [cannot be tested objectively] but belief. Belief is made by one's faith. In its wider sense, Sikhi doctrinal n emotional is a matter of belief down to the disposition of the individual.

The nam simran is very personal and I strongly ascribe to the view that it should perhaps, late rather than early in life be practiced and that too for the right reasons. I subscribe to the view that life should first n foremost be enjoyed, ego fully burnt out and then both meaning n purpose will emerge as a consequence. From the practical [science] to the contemplative [art], slowly but surely is what Sikhi is all about.

Ishna Ji, the science of concentration, meditation and contemplation is intrinsic to human nature, result of which is civilisation. The beautiful mind of the human "invested" for the progress of our species is evident in our everyday life. We swim like the fish in water, fly like the bird in the air, science n technology is the result of the investment of our "mind". The mind is so beautiful when put to good use via concentration, meditation and contemplation. When made to focus on its altusitc trait results are wonderful, but when focused on selfish traits [Hitler], it's horrible.

We in our everyday life meditate, reading, writing, drawing, planning or just deep thinking is meditation. Contemplation is different, for example, body is present but mind has taken to wings. I at times find that happening with me when in a meetings and the subject matter is so boring that my body is in the meeting and I'm miles away. Contemplation in its specific sense is a state realised by the practitioner within spiritual heights. So I suppose Japjisahib Ji was right when he commented [above] about the laziness of the monks, and yes, it is a state of total n complete idleness. But from a spiritual perspective, it's state of "being". And what that being is, is subjective, only the practitioner experiences.

Nam simran is something that is born, something which evolves from within, it cannot be extracted from external sources nor can it be purchased from retail. Akal Purakh creates for the individual a way to get to that stage where one can sit and "thank God" [nam sinran]. Sikhi, very beautifully allows us to do that. Nam simran, any time of the day is a way of thanking the almighty, but as practice becomes perfect a yearning and stirring within our heart begins to take shape. And, it is that yearning n stirring which different practitioners describe in different ways.

I'm sorry I have to rush for my morning training. Special apologies to Phaji Tejwant Singh for not fully elaborating on the subject matter, but suffice to say, yes I see Sikhi as a science, the way, but not everyone else does. Academically speaking, Nanak's Nirankar cannot be brought to the science lab because it is beyond time n space.

More another time, apologies for errors, omissions, unnecessary bias or prejudices.

Love you all !

Good day !

 

[Harry Haller]

That said we can always take our chessboards and basketballs to a PM.

I will start a new post in a while, I am just finishing off my next Hitler video

 

[BhagatSingh]

Who could be more knowledgeable in Yog vidhya then [so and so]

[so and so is ] controversial, corrupt,....

1. Anyone could be a master in yog vidya, even a julaha, cloth-spinner

2. No one is perfect. Especially in high stress situations, when there is a spot light on you, shining bright on every single detail. Many flaws are bound to emerge.

3. And no one is without haters. There were plenty of people who thought that Gurus were corrupt. They hated the Gurus.

4. Without a hole (flaws), where cannot be whole. Our flaws make us human.

5. Meditation is not about getting rid of your flaws in the way you might think. More on this later.

If it would have been that easy to achieve creative bliss to be able to cultivate meaningful life, (yes dumb bliss can be achieved) market would have been flooded with Apps on meditation, repetition.

I agree it would be. But it's not. When you talk with people, you will soon realize that very few people are actually into meditation.

Gurbani also says, ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ By Meditating on har har, deception remains

That's a mistranslation. In that shabad guru sahibs are explaining how meditation is actually done, and they stress the importance of finding a teacher.

By meditation I mean Dhyan. Meditation/Dhyan is a state of being that is focused single pointedly on something. Meditation is a fundamental part of Yog and Simran.

This is how meditation is defined in Guru Granth Sahib.

Let's read the whole shabad.

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
Raag Soohi, By Guru Ram Das ji

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
His says "Hari Hari" but engages in (ਕਪਟੁ) Untruth so his heart does not become pure.

Hari is the Truth so if you engage in actions that are Untruthful in nature, that lead away from Him, clearly you aren't going to obtain Him.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
They pretend to do all kinds of truthful actions but even in their dreams, they do not find peace.

So they are pretending. In reality they did not find that focused single-pointed state of being. They are only showing outwardly, without actually meditating.

ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਕੋਰੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਚੜੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Without a coach, who can guide you, you cannot do meditation. Without that, the colour cannot be retained on the cloth.

So now we know Guru Sahib is saying that this person , who engages in falsehood, cannot do meditation. That a teacher is required, who can teach you the correct methods. A cloth that hasn't been treated deeply by a professional dyer cannot retain colour not matter how hard it tries. The dyer knows how to dye correctly, so consult him when you want your clothes dyed correctly.

Here's the basketball analogy again -
1. You need a coach to truly excel at basketball at a high level.
2. Just shooting paper balls in garbage bins, is not basketball.


ਜਪੁ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਵਰਤ ਕਰੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਖੁਆਈ ॥੨॥
You may pretend to do (ਜਪੁ) chants, (ਤਪ) disciplines, and (ਸੰਜਮ) you pretend to control your five-senses and you may pretend to do (ਪੂਜਾ) worship, however if you pretend, your self-absorption will not go. The disease of ego and the attachment to the idea, that (ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ) you are are separate from everything else, will not go.

You are not meditating by pretending to meditate.
We know Guru Sahib constantly advocates and urges people to do ਜਪੁ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਪੂਜਾ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਭਜਨ ਧਿਆਨ etc.
He says ਰਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਸਖੀ ਸਖੈਨੀ ॥ My sister meditate on "Ram".
He says ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਬੋਲਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੋਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The followers of Hari chant "Shri Ram" and in the company of advanced practitioners, they move towards hari.

So Guru Sahib is telling us to meditate but Guru sahib also wants to teach meditation correctly, so that you actually get the desired results - so you actually move closer to Hari. So Guru sahib wants to make sure you are doing it correctly.

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੇਖ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਮਨੂਆ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਆਪਿਆ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਵੈ ॥੩॥
(ਬਾਹਰਿ) Outwardly you may put on religious robes (bana, kirpan, tuban, kesh, mala) and this would make you appear quite the meditator. However if your mind is (ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ) wandering in ten different directions, ie it's distracted (by thoughts, worries, and untruth), then you are not meditating. And if you are not meditating, then Haumai, your inner ego will remain, you will not understand my (1st person, guru's) instructions and you will come and go in reincarnation.

Meditation is single-pointed concentration. Guru Sahib says, if your mind is wandering, if it is distracted, if you haven't centered it on a single point. Then you are not meditating, then you are simply pretending. ਸਿਲ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਬਗੁਲ ਸਮਾਧੰ ॥ This is not meditation he says. It's like a bagul. A bagul is a bird that simply closes its eyes and sits in the water. It's not really meditating. Why? Because the bagul is thinking about it's prey (fish), it closes its eyes so that it can pretend to be asleep and catch its unwary prey.

Even though bagul bird's eyes are closed, in reality , it is distracted. It is not focusing on something single-pointedly, and (ਪਾਂਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹ ਕਰਈ ॥) withdrawing the five senses to (ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਪਰਚਉ ਲਾਵਾ ॥) experience the atma.


ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥
Guru Ram Das ji says - Those whom Hari looks kindly on, they understand the secret of how to single-pointedly center the mind, and so they learn to meditate.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥
Through the Gurus's teachings, they practice his methods and they recognize the state of one-pointed consciousness and they merge with it.

 

[Harry Haller]

Excuse me? I believe you are in the basketball court right now, telling people how basketball is wrong.

well, we have already been informed by mods that this argument should be taken to another thread. so this is not the basketball court, and , again, it is you telling us all how great it is

That's like asking "what's the point in playing basketball if you still suck at soccer?"

not really, that's probably the worst metaphor you could have used, what I would ask why do you play basketball? what is your agenda?

So you are judging basketball players on their lack of soccer skills... then you wonder why those basketball players are mad at you. Hahaha

Well if the goal is not to be good at soccer (wordly interaction), and be good at basketball (self exploration), but I live in the world of soccer, so in my world, it all seems a bit weird to me, I never wonder why people are mad at me, people are always mad at me, maybe its because I just cannot see the Emperor's new clothes? I just see a naked fat man, what do you see?

 

[BhagatSingh]

be good at basketball (self exploration)

That's right. Yog/Simran is about self-exploration. By "self" I mean atma/spirit, who is Parmatma/God. In order to (ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਪਰਚਉ ਲਾਵਾ ॥) see the atma or God, (ਪਾਂਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹ ਕਰਈ ॥) one has to withdraw from the world and five senses.

so in my world, it all seems a bit weird to me,

That's fine. You go play soccer. *thumbs up*

 

[Ishna]

Cut it out you two or I bring out the naughty stick.

 

[Ishna]

The definition of science that I provided is limited in that I didn't mention social sciences, but they all apply the scientific method to their research.

Not meaning any disrespect, but I think the term you are looking for is 'pseudoscience'. Wikipedia says:

"A field, practice, or body of knowledge can reasonably be called pseudoscientific when it is presented as consistent with the norms of scientific research, but it demonstrably fails to meet these norms.[2] Science is also distinguishable from revelation, theology, or spirituality in that it offers insight into the physical world obtained by empirical research and testing.[3] Commonly held beliefs in popular science may not meet the criteria of science.[4]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
​

You cannot discuss yog and simran without using the word meditation. By meditation I mean Dhyan. Meditation/Dhyan is a state of being that is focused single pointedly on something. Meditation is a fundamental part of Yog and Simran.

If you take meditation out, you have nothing left.

Simran is constant remembrance. It is that constant awareness of Oneness that we should carry with us all the time. The kite we always fly, no matter what we're doing. Simran is not just an act of meditation, it's a way of being.

Akal Purakh creates for the individual a way to get to that stage where one can sit and "thank God" [nam sinran]. Sikhi, very beautifully allows us to do that. Nam simran, any time of the day is a way of thanking the almighty, but as practice becomes perfect a yearning and stirring within our heart begins to take shape.

I agree with you up to a point, Ji. My understanding of Naam simran is a state of being. Of course there are activities we can do to remind ourselves of the Ik Onkar. Prayer, meditation, yoga, chanting, etc are all tools we can use to achieve a profound, complete, pervading sense of connection, to eliminate our sense of separation/haumai/"ego". But the real objective is to carry that deep sense of unity everywhere you go, at all times, in good times and bad.

This is how meditation is defined in Guru Granth Sahib.

Let's read the whole shabad.

Shabad here: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=732&L=6 From panna 732.

I have a different perspective of this shabad than you do, Bhagat Ji. Thank you for sharing your understanding.

My take on the shabad is thus:

You can chant as much as you like, do all sorts of rituals, but if it doesn't get to your mind and change the way you act, it's useless. The Guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Life itself) can teach us how to think and act properly. Without learning from the Guru (treating the cloth) you can't think and act properly (and take on the dye of Love and Naam). Without the Guru, you can chant, worship, fast, look like a perfect white Brahm Giani or the Pope, but you need to recognise Naam to be absorbed (achieve that Oneness).

My understanding is very simple.

Thanks

 

[BhagatSingh]

The definition of science that I provided is limited in that I didn't mention social sciences, but they all apply the scientific method to their research.

Not only limited in that in didn't include social sciences but it was also limited because it didn't include psychological and spiritual sciences.

I was trained in the modern scientific method and I understand what makes it useful and I understand its limitations.

Science is simply the study of something. It's doesn't have to be material-only. I am aware this is a broad definition but I don't find a "material-only" science definition all that useful especially in threads about meditation.

Not meaning any disrespect, but I think the term you are looking for is 'pseudoscience'.

Oh I know what that term means. I am not talking about that.

Simran is constant remembrance. It is that constant awareness of Oneness that we should carry with us all the time.

real objective is to carry that deep sense of unity everywhere you go, at all times, in good times and bad.

That's the end game. The XYZ of meditation, in which meditation becomes a state of being. Before we get to XYZ thought, we must start from the ABC and work our way up the ladder.

My take on the shabad is thus:

What does it mean to achieve oneness? (Hint - This is again the XYZ, the end-game)

Guru Sahib answers -
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥
Through the Gurus's teachings, they practice his methods and they (ਬੂਝੈ) recognize (ਏਕੋ) the state of one-pointed consciousness and they (ਸਮਾਏ) merge with it.


The people that Guru Sahib is talking about in this shabad, are not at the end-game. In fact they haven't even started learning the ABC.

ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ - Their mind is distracted, it's wandering in ten different directions. ie they are not meditating.

In other shabads Guru sahib explains the ABC. In this shabad, he explaining to these people that they are not doing the ABC, as they seem to believe they are.

 

[Harry Haller]

That's right. Yog/Simran is about self-exploration. By "self" I mean atma/spirit, who is Parmatma/God. In order to (ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਪਰਚਉ ਲਾਵਾ ॥) see the atma or God, (ਪਾਂਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹ ਕਰਈ ॥) one has to withdraw from the world and five senses.


That's fine. You go play soccer. *thumbs up*

I can't, your playing basketball on my pitch

 

[BhagatSingh]

Dude forget the pitch or else Ishna is going to pull out her Baseball bat.

 

[Original]

Dude forget the pitch or else Ishna is going to pull out her Baseball bat.

Ishna

The nuts n bolts of the whole palaver to hand is this; Sikhi speaks of "anhad shabd" [sound, music], it also prescribes a method known as "dhyan" or "samadhi" [meditation], "nam simran" to fine tune and open the inner mechanism to here this "anhad shabd".

Personally speaking, it is BnE of both Arts n Sicences. Read up on it from Bhagat Kabir's bani p340 SGGSJ.

Good day!

 

[Ishna]

Not only limited in that in didn't include social sciences but it was also limited because it didn't include psychological and spiritual sciences.

I was trained in the modern scientific method and I understand what makes it useful and I understand its limitations.

Science is simply the study of something. It's doesn't have to be material-only. I am aware this is a broad definition but I don't find a "material-only" science definition all that useful especially in threads about meditation.

What scientific findings has yoga produced? What is being tested, and by what method?

That's the end game. The XYZ of meditation, in which meditation becomes a state of being. Before we get to XYZ thought, we must start from the ABC and work our way up the ladder.

What does it mean to achieve oneness? (Hint - This is again the XYZ, the end-game)

Guru Sahib answers -
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥
Through the Gurus's teachings, they practice his methods and they (ਬੂਝੈ) recognize (ਏਕੋ) the state of one-pointed consciousness and they (ਸਮਾਏ) merge with it.

The people that Guru Sahib is talking about in this shabad, are not at the end-game. In fact they haven't even started learning the ABC.

ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ - Their mind is distracted, it's wandering in ten different directions. ie they are not meditating.

In other shabads Guru sahib explains the ABC. In this shabad, he explaining to these people that they are not doing the ABC, as they seem to believe they are.

I agree with this in spirit. Particularly that the end-game is not physical death, as is the end-game for so many other religions. The end-game is a state of being which we then carry with us in our day-to-day.

Question: If yoga, meditation and chanting can all be used as tools to achieve this end-game, can fasting be used, too?

Thanks

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ishna can you read gurmukhi? If you can, I would suggest you try to abandom the english translations and start working from raw Gurmukhi. There's a dictionary on Srigranth.org that connects to Mahan Kosh (the great dictionary) and it's wicked.

What scientific findings has yoga produced? What is being tested, and by what method?

In a nutshell -
The finding is 'oneness'. Oneness is what we are testing, to see if it exists.
The method is 'meditation'.

You can check out the Yog Sutra of Patanjali, that I linked earlier, for more on that.

Question: If yoga, meditation and chanting can all be used as tools to achieve this end-game, can fasting be used, too?

Tool - that word is key. Because tool means that it gives us leverage, like a hammer. Yea fasting is also a tool.

This reminds me of that shabad by Guru Nanak Dev ji. Here he is giving people advice on how to meditate.
He is actually describing the meditation process as if it were done with a bunch of tools.

Let's see what he is saying.

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
(ਜਤੁ) Ability to Withdraw the Five Senses from the world is the (ਪਾਹਾਰਾ) Workshop.
(ਧੀਰਜੁ) Patience is the (ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ) Goldsmith.

ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
(ਮਤਿ) Intellligence is the (ਅਹਰਣਿ) Anvil.
(ਵੇਦੁ) Vedas - listening to spiritual texts - is the (ਹਥੀਆਰੁ) Hammer.

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
Blow through the (ਖਲਾ) Pipe (ਭਉ ) the Fear of God, and increase the heat of the (ਅਗਨਿ) Fire.
This is called (ਤਪ) Tapasaya.

ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥ ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
In the (ਭਾਂਡਾ) container of (ਭਾਉ) Love - your heart - (ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ) pour in the molten gold - (ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ) Amrit.

Amrit needs a bit of an elaboration here because there is no substitute word in English. Amrit means A - non, Mrityu - Death. It means non-death, non-dying. It is referring to the subjective, the qualitative state of eternity.

Imagine eternity not as a quantitative state, not as in - "How many years?" - that's quantity.
But rather as a qualitative state, as in - "How long is 1 minute?" - that's quality.

The word Boredom comes somewhat close. For example, when you are bored in class, the clock seems to be ticking a lot slower. So Amrit is like a sweet, joyful boredom. The clock ticks slower, as if it were eternity.


ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
(Take this Amrit and pour it into the mould of Love) and mint the Gold coins of your guru's words - his or her instructions.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Those who are looked upon kindly by their guru, they find out how to do this method. And when they apply the method, they are liberated.

 

[BhagatSingh]

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
(ਜਤੁ) Ability to Withdraw the Five Senses from the world is the (ਪਾਹਾਰਾ) Workshop.
(ਧੀਰਜੁ) Patience is the (ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ) Goldsmith.

ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
(ਮਤਿ) Intellligence is the (ਅਹਰਣਿ) Anvil.
(ਵੇਦੁ) Vedas - listening to spiritual texts - is the (ਹਥੀਆਰੁ) Hammer.

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
Blow through the (ਖਲਾ) Pipe (ਭਉ ) the Fear of God, and increase the heat of the (ਅਗਨਿ) Fire.
This is called (ਤਪ) Tapasaya.

ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥ ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
In the (ਭਾਂਡਾ) container of (ਭਾਉ) Love - your heart - (ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ) pour in the molten gold - (ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ) Amrit.

Amrit needs a bit of an elaboration here because there is no substitute word in English. Amrit means A - non, Mrityu - Death. It means non-death, non-dying. It is referring to the subjective, the qualitative state of eternity.

Imagine eternity not as a quantitative state, not as in - "How many years?" - that's quantity.
But rather as a qualitative state, as in - "How long is 1 minute?" - that's quality.

The word Boredom comes somewhat close. For example, when you are bored in class, the clock seems to be ticking a lot slower. So Amrit is like a sweet, joyful boredom. The clock ticks slower, as if it were eternity.


ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
(Take this Amrit and pour it into the mould of Love) and mint the Gold coins of your guru's words - his or her instructions.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Those who are looked upon kindly by their guru, they find out how to do this method. And when they apply the method, they are liberated.

It's just mind-blowing how he described it using hammers and stuff!

Withdraw senses from world = now you got your inner space, this is your workshop.
If you are not patient, you will break/leave this space. So you have to be patient to maintain state in order to progress.

Your intelligence is what the spiritual texts must strike on. Your soul becomes the basis for the spiritual texts to have their effect on you. You need to constantly hit your intelligence with spiritual texts in order to make something out of it.

You need to have a Fear of God, because this will make your fire hot. The fire he is referring to is alertness/consciousness. The fear of God, as it increases, is like increasing alertness.

Why is there fear of God?
So you are becoming more and more conscious. The more conscious you become the more God comes in. When more God comes in to you, you will become frigthened, because you will now start dying. Your haumai/ego will start dying the natural response of your ego to death is of fear.

So the more fear there is, the better the flame of consciousness.

But there can't just be fear because then you'd wana run. There has to be love for this type of state, otherwise you will be out of there quickly. So in that love, pour in eternity, that is, maintain this state for long period of time, and use the guru's instructions to stay there and experience God, and let him in fully.

Effing brilliant!

 

[japjisahib04]

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
His says "Hari Hari" but engages in (ਕਪਟੁ) Untruth so his heart does not become pure.
Hari is the Truth so if you engage in actions that are Untruthful in nature, that lead away from Him, clearly you aren't going to obtain Him.

I can clearly see that if by repeating Hari hari you still are engaged in deception, then you need to reassess as per gurmat whether this ritual is worth. Similarly, ' ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਜਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਧੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ thus I need to work to purify my mind and ਨਾਮੇ ਕੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਾਹਿ ਲੇ ਝਗਰਾ ॥ I have settled my confusion and now ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਨ ਪੀਓ ਰੇ ਦਗਰਾ ॥੩॥੪॥ I focus on sublime essence. Guru sahib took pain to compile 1430 pages in different rages, got himself martyred and explained through different six thousands sabd how to be sachiar,how to purify the mind. They are not meant for meditation but practically living.

 

[Harry Haller]

Withdraw senses from world = now you got your inner space, this is your workshop.

what happened to living as householders? Where is all this leading? What is the goal?

Your intelligence is what the spiritual texts must strike on. Your soul becomes the basis for the spiritual texts to have their effect on you. You need to constantly hit your intelligence with spiritual texts in order to make something out of it.

Please define for me 'hit your intelligence', how does one do that?

You need to have a Fear of God, because this will make your fire hot.

Where are you getting all this from?

Why is there fear of God?
So you are becoming more and more conscious. The more conscious you become the more God comes in. When more God comes in to you, you will become frigthened, because you will now start dying. Your haumai/ego will start dying the natural response of your ego to death is of fear.

So the more fear there is, the better the flame of consciousness.

But there can't just be fear because then you'd wana run. There has to be love for this type of state, otherwise you will be out of there quickly. So in that love, pour in eternity, that is, maintain this state for long period of time, and use the guru's instructions to stay there and experience God, and let him in fully.

Just forget science for a minute, but love, fear, altered states, what good is all of it?
What is the end goal?
Are you able to answer my questions?

I consider myself to be joined with God, maybe not in the trippy way you describe, but its good enough for me.

 

[BhagatSingh]

I can clearly see that if by repeating Hari hari you still are engaged in deception, then you need to reassess as per gurmat whether this ritual is worth. Similarly, ' ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਜਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਧੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ thus I need to work to purify my mind and ਨਾਮੇ ਕੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਾਹਿ ਲੇ ਝਗਰਾ ॥ I have settled my confusion and now ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਨ ਪੀਓ ਰੇ ਦਗਰਾ ॥੩॥੪॥ I focus on sublime essence.

If you read the rest of the shabad, Guru Sahib says they are not actually meditating. The shabad is about people who are engaging in falsehood by pretending to meditate. Guru Sahib their mind is distracted and they are not focusing on Hari single-pointedly so the will never be coloured correctly.

So the shabad you posted to justify your post, is not actually doing that. It's talking about how these people are NOT meditating when they should be.

Guru sahib took pain to compile 1430 pages in different rages, got himself martyred and explained through different six thousands sabd how to be sachiar,how to purify the mind. They are not meant for meditation but practically living.

In the other 1429 pages, Guru Sahib is -
1. telling us to meditate
2. telling us why to meditate
3. telling us how to meditate
4. telling us how to meditate correctly
5. telling us about avoid traps and pitfalls on the way and how to overcome them
6. inspiring us to meditate by giving tons of examples of people who meditated Prehlaad, Dhruv, Ajamal, Sudama, etc, tons and including themselves and Saints and Bhagats.
7. telling us to meditate so much that it becomes 24/7 meditation, that it happens even during sleep!
8. telling us about the kinds of experiences you will have while meditating
9. telling us about the significance of these experiences
10. describing high-level meditation experiences, the kind where you are work from abc--> all the way to xyz. The very end-game experiences that only a rare few can have.
Why don't you read the other 1429 pages where all this is mentioned?

Let me extend an olive branch to you.

I am not saying engaging in falsehood, is good. That should be clear from my post, that it's bad and it will turn you away from Hari.

I know there's lots of shabads in Guru Granth that say "don't engage in falsehood", maintain morally superior conduct and so on. I get that.

I know there are lots of stories about Hirakashap and Ravan, people who meditated a lot but Fked it all up though shitty moral conduct. I have read those. I get that.

I think good moral conduct as well meditation is important. I don't think any of them should be left out.

let me repeat.
how does one lead a healthy life?
1. Exercise
2. Nutrition
3. Rest
4. Moral Conduct
5. Meditation

You cannot skip any of those.

If you come to me and tell me, you meditate, but you don't exercise, you eat chips and coke, you don't get any rest and are shitty to your parents.

I will tell you to stop worrying about meditation and focus on 1-4. Funny enough. I have never actually met anyone like that. All the people I know who meditate already have 1-4 handled pretty well.

But I meet people who don't meditate, who don't exercise, who don't sleep, who don't consume greens and veggies, who are morally pathetic, all the time!

And here you are, I am assuming you got 1-4 down, but you don't meditate. What do you expect me to say to you?

Of course, I will say you should probably work on number 5 because Guru Granth Sahib also says this and because you already got the other 4 ingredients taken care of.

 

[Original]

If you read the rest of the shabad, Guru Sahib says they are not actually meditating. The shabad is about people who are engaging in falsehood by pretending to meditate. Guru Sahib their mind is distracted and they are not focusing on Hari single-pointedly so the will never be coloured correctly.

So the shabad you posted to justify your post, is not actually doing that. It's talking about how these people are NOT meditating when they should be.



In the other 1429 pages, Guru Sahib is -
1. telling us to meditate
2. telling us why to meditate
3. telling us how to meditate
4. telling us how to meditate correctly
5. telling us about avoid traps and pitfalls on the way and how to overcome them
6. inspiring us to meditate by giving tons of examples of people who meditated Prehlaad, Dhruv, Ajamal, Sudama, etc, tons and including themselves and Saints and Bhagats.
7. telling us to meditate so much that it becomes 24/7 meditation, that it happens even during sleep!
8. telling us about the kinds of experiences you will have while meditating
9. telling us about the significance of these experiences
10. describing high-level meditation experiences, the kind where you are work from abc--> all the way to xyz. The very end-game experiences that only a rare few can have.
Why don't you read the other 1429 pages where all this is mentioned?

Let me extend an olive branch to you.

I am not saying engaging in falsehood, is good. That should be clear from my post, that it's bad and it will turn you away from Hari.

I know there's lots of shabads in Guru Granth that say "don't engage in falsehood", maintain morally superior conduct and so on. I get that.

I know there are lots of stories about Hirakashap and Ravan, people who meditated a lot but Fked it all up though shitty moral conduct. I have read those. I get that.

I think good moral conduct as well meditation is important. I don't think any of them should be left out.

let me repeat.
how does one lead a healthy life?
1. Exercise
2. Nutrition
3. Rest
4. Moral Conduct
5. Meditation

You cannot skip any of those.

If you come to me and tell me, you meditate, but you don't exercise, you eat chips and coke, you don't get any rest and are shitty to your parents.

I will tell you to stop worrying about meditation and focus on 1-4. Funny enough. I have never actually met anyone like that. All the people I know who meditate already have 1-4 handled pretty well.

But I meet people who don't meditate, who don't exercise, who don't sleep, who don't consume greens and veggies, who are morally pathetic, all the time!

And here you are, I am assuming you got 1-4 down, but you don't meditate. What do you expect me to say to you?

Of course, I will say you should probably work on number 5 because Guru Granth Sahib also says this and because you already got the other 4 ingredients taken care of.

Easy Tiger !

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Welcome back and I hope you stick around because we can all learn from you. My first lesson from you is to define Meditation as per SGGS, our only Guru.

1.Is there only one word or multiple ones that describe meditation in the SGGS?

I know there's lots of shabads in Guru Granth that say "don't engage in falsehood", maintain morally superior conduct and so on. I get that.

Who has the benchmark meter to know the difference?

Please post the whole Shabads with your own understanding about the above.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

A note to the Mods: It would help if it is possible to join the two threads because Yoga/Simran/ Meditation as all three are co-related.