Sikhs In Temples

[Archived_Member5]

Sikhism is a philosophy, the Guru Sahib Ji is the sacred word of the Waheguru Ji. In reverence we bow to wisdom and the love and peace it brings to our collective souls, as we touch the feet in humble supplication to our family and community elders, those pillars of sobriety and sense giving guidance to what can be a turbulent and tempestuous life at times, wherein we lose focus and sight of long term goals, whilst dwelling upon transitory and temporal distractions and circumstances that may appear, as Plato’s philosophy of man in a cave battling with his shadows.

Bowing to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji should not in any way pose any problematic obstacles for ‘converts’ if they encounter difficulty in doing so maybe they should consider other faiths or doctrines. Sikhism prides itself upon a faith of honour, virtue, chastity, morals and sound family values. Proud in our demeanour, heads held high with humbled supplicated hearts. It is an inimitable combination.

The danger arises where converting takes place to compromise ones statues’ and principles toward gaining number in sangats of converts. The primary principles risks shifting from the inestimable wealth of its wisdom, to preachers seeking a badge in recognition of bolstering the ranks of Sikhism. It is a risk the diligent need to be mindful and wary of.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikhism is a philosophy, the Guru Sahib Ji is the sacred word of the Waheguru Ji. In reverence we bow to wisdom and the love and peace it brings to our collective souls, as we touch the feet in humble supplication to our family and community elders, those pillars of sobriety and sense giving guidance to what can be a turbulent and tempestuous life at times, wherein we lose focus and sight of long term goals, whilst dwelling upon transitory and temporal distractions and circumstances that may appear, as Plato’s philosophy of man in a cave battling with his shadows.

Bowing to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji should not in any way pose any problematic obstacles for ‘converts’ if they encounter difficulty in doing so maybe they should consider other faiths or doctrines. Sikhism prides itself upon a faith of honour, virtue, chastity, morals and sound family values. Proud in our demeanour, heads held high with humbled supplicated hearts. It is an inimitable combination.

The danger arises where converting takes place to compromise ones statues’ and principles toward gaining number in sangats of converts. The primary principles risks shifting from the inestimable wealth of its wisdom, to preachers seeking a badge in recognition of bolstering the ranks of Sikhism. It is a risk the diligent need to be mindful and wary of.

Jeetijohal ji,

I definitely agree that efforts to gain lots of converts in a sangat causes a lot of damage to one's understanding of the core beliefs of Sikhism.

But -- the real problem for converts is that they often hear so many conflicting messages from those who are born into Sikhism. For example, the issue where I put some focus. Is bowing to Guruji the same as bowing to an idol? Is bowing the same as worshiping? A convert can read one explanation on a good website about this and then go to a forum and read 10 different opinions. And people get to fighting about it. This can be extremely distressing for a convert.

 

[Archived_Member5]

Preaching faith should not be assigned to novices, and seeking truth from angst ridden posters on forums, is as I have learnt foolhardy, rather than learning or gaining any enlightenment one stands in danger of losing one’s faith and sense of right. Atheism grows like a plague upon the heads of steadfast belivers and being mindful of this, Sikhism is happy to have new members in its sanctum without compromise to its underlying premise and values.

Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect. Why then would we question the bowing of head top the sacred teachings and word of the Guru Granth Sahib. Our Gianni are all male and we have do not discuss issues prevalent in the media symptomatic of the lack of values in certain groups of society.

It is a blessing and a privilege to be part of any Sangat, any personal issues must be redirected to a facility of elders delegated to this task or settled externally from the confines of the sanctum of the Temple and Gurdwara. Religion is under attack and all must be vigilant in defending this besieged institution given the harmful, contradictory and wrong dictums offered by the media to the people.


WaheGuru Satnam ...

 

[BhagatSingh]

Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect. Why then would we question the bowing of head top the sacred teachings and word of the Guru Granth Sahib.

insert stone/idol in that question above
Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect.
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the sacred stones and idols?

 

[Archived_Member5]

***Children from good families touch the feet of elders as a mark of respect.
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the Guru Granth Sahib as a mark of respect ...***

It is considered wise to proof read one's writing prior to posting....

Some day I will master the art of editing. JJ.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Children from good families touch the feet of elders as a mark of respect.
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the Guru Granth Sahib as a mark of respect ...

insert stone/idol in that question above
Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect.
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the sacred stones and idols as a mark of respect?

 

[pk70]

Aad Bhain jio

If you allow me, I want to say some thing special to all converts who possibly can get confused due to some Sikhs mind-set views which has nothing to do with Guru Teachings. As hinted by jeetijohal, the media and other people are trying to convince the Sikhs that it is OK to pay respect to other religions deities just for the sake of respect.
Let’s analyze how much sincerity is there in this act. Sikhs as taught by Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the Idols are stones, they are not better than any other stone ( Bhagat Naamdev), then on what ground, a Sikh can compromise with Guru Teachings? To please others, well if that is the case, then it is hypocrisy with string attached, why? In the mind of a Sikh, the Idol is just a piece of stone, in heart, there is no feelings for it at all, isn’t it a hypocritical act to show that the respect is given to the idol? Not believing in and still showing respect! It just cannot be compared with elders, if any one does, I just cannot comprehend the state of that mind. Bowing to elders is a social tradition prevailed in the east. Bowing to stones is not any social tradition at all, bowing to stones is a religious act, if it is performed, there are two scenarios, either one has started believing in them or he or she is just hypocrite, because who (other than Sikhs) bow to the idols, they believe in them, at least they are not hypocrites like Sikhs who bow for show off. In Gurbani, they(Idols) are criticized in very strong language.
The converts should try to learn from Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji than listening to the people who have hundred directions due to having incomplete knowledge of what Guru wants from them
In Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji, the Idols and other gods are criticized in very strong language, why they are criticized in such a way? Answer is very simple; Guru doesn’t want his followers to consider them of worth paying attention. Here are just a couple examples through which Guru explains who they are, first” devyas” then “the Idols”
ਪੰਨਾ 129, ਸਤਰ 8ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
देवी देवा मूलु है माइआ ॥
Ḏevī ḏevā mūl hai mā▫i▫ā.
The source, the root, of the gods and goddesses is Maya.
ਮਃ 3
( Well, it is Maya that separates us from the Lord( Japji)

ਪੰਨਾ 332, ਸਤਰ 12ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਕਰਿਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਜੀਉ ਦੇਹੀ ॥
माटी के करि देवी देवा तिसु आगै जीउ देही ॥
Mātī ke kar ḏevī ḏevā ṯis āgai jī▫o ḏehī.
Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ
(Imagine what ignorant would have done it for these stones, should we applaud that too!)
ਪੰਨਾ 637, ਸਤਰ 5ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਭਾਈ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਗਉ ਕਿਆ ਦੇਹਿ
Ḏevī ḏevā pūjī▫ai bẖā▫ī ki▫ā māga▫o ki▫ā ḏėh.
Why worship gods and goddesses, O Siblings of Destiny? What can we ask of them? What can they give us?
ਮਃ 1 -
All above Guru Vakas are preparing the followers to stay away from these idols and devtas and lean only on Guru and the Lord.

Now look what is said about these idols carrying image of Devtas
ਪੰਨਾ 525, ਸਤਰ 5ਏਕੈਪਾਥਰਕੀਜੈ ਭਾਉ ॥
Ėkai pāthar kījai bẖā▫o.
One stone is lovingly decorated,
ਦੂਜੈਪਾਥਰਧਰੀਐ ਪਾਉ ॥
Ḏūjai pāthar ḏẖarī▫ai pā▫o.
while another stone is walked upon.
ਭਗਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਜੀ
You see what Bhagat ji is saying? There is no difference between these Idols or other stones.
ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥
Jo pāthar ka▫o kahṯe ḏev.
Those who call a stone their god-

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥
Ŧā kī birthā hovai sev.
their service is useless.

ਜੋਪਾਥਰਕੀਪਾਂਈਪਾਇ॥
Jo pāthar kī pāʼn▫ī pā▫e.
Those who fall at the feet of a stone god- ( It means bowing)

ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ ( MEHLA 5)
Ŧis kī gẖāl ajāʼn▫ī jā▫e. ||1||
their work is wasted in vain. ||1||

ਪੰਨਾ 1160, ਸਤਰ 8ਨਪਾਥਰੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਇ ॥
Na pāthar bolai nā kicẖẖḏe▫e.
The stone does not speak; it does not give anything to anyone.
ਮਃ 5
Why is this said? Answer: They are just stones, so they are merely stones in the eyes of Sikhs, then how respect can be shown to them by bowing? In heart, idea about them is different, act of showing respect to them is different, and it is called hypocrisy
Now look at the other cry of love the Lord

ਪੰਨਾ 45, ਸਤਰ 6ਇਕੁ ਪਛਾਣੂ ਜੀਅ ਕਾਇਕੋਰਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
Ik pacẖẖāṇū jī▫a kā iko rakẖaṇhār.
The One is the Knower of all beings; He alone is our Savior.
ਮਃ 5
ਪੰਨਾ 45, ਸਤਰ 8ਇਕੋਭਾਈ ਮਿਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਇਕੋ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ॥
Iko bẖā▫ī miṯ ik iko māṯ piṯā.
The One is my Brother, the One is my Friend. The One is my Mother and Father.
ਮਃ 5
ਪੰਨਾ 590, ਸਤਰ 3ਹਰਿਇਕੋਦਾਤਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥
Har iko ḏāṯā sevī▫ai har ik ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai.
Serve the One Lord, the Great Giver; meditate on the One Lord.
ਮਃ 4
ਪੰਨਾ 17, ਸਤਰ 7ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉਮੰਨੀਐਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥
Nā▫o pūjī▫ai nā▫o mannī▫ai akẖand saḏā sacẖ so▫e. ||3||
They worship the Naam, and they believe in the Naam. The True One is forever Intact and Unbroken. ||3||
ਮਃ 1 -
ਪੰਨਾ 426, ਸਤਰ 6ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ਨਮੰਨੀਐਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਈ
Bin nāvai ko▫e na mannī▫ai manmukẖ paṯ gavā▫ī.
Without the Naam, no one is accepted; the self-willed manmukhs lose their honor.
ਮਃ 3
Guru ji, takes on stones and Devtas and guides the followers to understand that worshiping or giving any consideration to them is an act of ignorance, means do not indulge in such act. If these are considered just merely stones and Maya inflicted ones, why Guru ji would want his Sikhs to bow to them? Tenth Master declares in Zaffarnama that he is Idol destroyer ( 96) Why? To point out Auranzeb's hypocrisy of standing against the Idols but in Guru's case Aurangzeb supported the Idol worshipers and turned against him. So message is very clear. Guru ji doesn’t teach Sikhs to be hypocrites like thinking they are stones but still paying respect is O.K. The coverts should follow the message of Guru about what these Idols and Devtas are in realty in the eyes of Guru ji. If some one comes up with an idea of bowing to the Idols as just showing respect, it bears no support from Gurbani, why such people should be listened to? I have good friends who are Hindus, I went with them to Mandir but I waited outside as they paid respect to the Idol they believed in. I respected that and I do not expect them to go to Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji and bow to it to please me. It is that simple.
Take another example of caste system; it is bluntly criticized in Gurbani because it is not what is weighed by the Lord but the sincere deeds. Converts should not follow those who still are into this illusion of caste but Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji

 

[spnadmin]

***Children from good families touch the feet of elders as a mark of respect.
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the Guru Granth Sahib as a mark of respect ...***

It is considered wise to proof read one's writing prior to posting....

Some day I will master the art of editing. JJ.

jeetijohal ji

I understood what you meant before editing. Thanks for your insights. Certainly others also grasped your main idea.

Guru Fateh!

 

[spnadmin]

pk70 ji and jeetijohal ji

Such answers you have given, straight from the heart. And they were focused on the message of the Guru. Many thanks to both of you for the time you took to put your heart and soul into helpful answers. Once, a while back, NamJap ji had asked me to start a thread for converts. The reason why I have resisted this is completely related to my concerns that so much heat rises from debate about the Gurbani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Heat rises even when Gurbani is clear and unambiguous. And believe me it does cause a lot of anxiety for converts. I have many times wondered what I was doing to myself 3 years later. Thinking BTW that I should run away as fast as I could run. A Bani that brings so much joy subjected to so much dissection and animosity. A Satguru who is without enmity, the subject of so much collective anger. Guru Nanak was never angry, but also he never shied away from speaking the truth as he understood it.

The cure for my concerns has always been to return to the Guru for guidance. The thread that NamJap ji has suggested might be helpful afterall.

 

[Archived_Member5]

The problem lies with ‘debate’. Truth seekers cannot debate what an attested truth is and sound wisdom. Rather they seek to understand the underlying tenets of each given pearl. All scholars must approach the Guru Granth Sahib with love and the utmost respect. The Guru Granth Sahib is our Parent, Maat, Pita. Few tolerate any insolence from those limited understanding distorting what are sound edicts of the scriptures.

Debating is a modern age phenomena, in days of yore one did not debate the ethics and principles rather one sought with humble supplication, to understand why and for what purpose they were written. Now Psychologists will tell you what is pure truth to one man this day, seems when he is angry with the world a baseless nonsense if not an blatant lie. Environment changes one’s mindset, and it should always be acknowledge when seeking to understand the Bani, what is not clear to the mind today, will be made clearer at the a later time, when we are maybe is a clearer state of mind, and able to think reasonably rather than emotionally, with angered or pained heart.

The Bani is sacred, we would not suffer an inept to challenge what we know as sound philosophies. I am a sceptic, I challenge and reason everything, but rarely to a faithful of the Word. Wisdom comes with understanding, understanding is gained when the receptive mind becomes amenable to a universal of knowledge. If the mind is aggressive, or arrogant and boastful, knowledge becomes impaired in turn, and scholars cast aspersion son the validity of tenets in the stead of cultivating a modicum of regard for a cosmological fount that at times becomes as bitter gall when chemically reacting with angered or boastful polluted minds.

Knowledge is ones light and spiritual guide, ones conscience. It is ones parent always loving and counselling, sometimes scolding. It must as a precious tree be watered with spring, and tended with loving care for it is the tree where we find our shade rest, bears fruit, takes in toxins from the atmosphere and gives forth fragrant and gentle synergy cleansing the atmosphere about it. Thus is mans role with his spiritual environment, atmosphere and fellow men. One must at first find the cause of one’s anger and cure by the reconciling prior to knowledge, love and peace making their abode in the dwelling one’s mind and home.

Peace, Love and Many Blessing to all ...

Waheguru Satnam ...

 

[Saint Soldier]

Sat shri akal,
now that i know that i was right in my saying that sikhs sould not bow to idols . what sould sikhs do in temples , stand like idols before idols??????

 

[Archived_Member5]

There are forces at play seeking to undermine religion, to destroy its integrity and standing towards usurping the formidable power it holds and wields. Scandalisation efforts orchestrated by the media to undermine religions, predominantly Christianity are money and profit orientated. Religion yields little profit in this consumer driven age of greed and ambition, and therefore is of little interest to marketers unless it bows and connives with prevailing forces. The television evangelists as viewed on cable television contribute little to moral integrity or spiritual awakening, essential for mans release from his mortal being.

Many modern folk are raised in a confusing and contradictory environment, the scriptural tenets conflicting directly with modern day eulogy, and sensationalist scientific evidence for theories described fully and perfectly in the Bani. The Sikhs perfectly integrate the culture with modernism without concession, and although many discard their Sikh apparel and turban, they soon return to it when maturity and sense returns.

In this age of Kalyug, al are bound, some fight for peace and honour to prevail, others are bowed are likewise served by the evil powers. We change what we can and leave alone what we are unable. In the days of our Guru’s all underwent atrocities and acts of barbarism, as a testimony to their descendants of the great dignified sacrifice made by our forefathers that we be free to practice our faith and stand proud as nobleman of a blessed creed.

In this age of Kalyug, the good and valiant are bound, Armageddon rages in financial markets, politics, media and religion man find himself helpless to protest against war, suffering and evil as such evildoers are cloaked in respectability whilst the freedom fighters are marked as terrorists. A traversal of fate and fortune, it is a time and will soon pass....

 

[Sinister]

Salutations to the cult of learners,

this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board.

we should bow to no one! and no thing! it is ethically and morally wrong (according to my taste, and the cramp in my leg)...everybody and everything is equally useless in this world and we should rejoice in this truth...the primitive humanly constructed divisions between the sacred and the profane are also useless.

We should replace Bowing with High-Fiving (we should all high-five the holy-books/idols as well. the more senstive veers out there can opt for a hug :...The mighty High-five symbolizes the spirit of cooperation, victory, equality and joy in one swoop of the arm and hand...the bow is used to segragate and make status and heirarchy within the populace.

High-fiving is also alot more fun than a bow :happy:

Keep it Awesome
Sinister.

 

[Archived_Member5]

Your fear of being outcast considered less than the noted individual you are causes you to espout so much verbiage. It is precisely this big melting pot of America that has caused this unholy hell. Fate places each man at his station, whether King or doorman, each has a role to play in this great grand opera that is life and living. What determines the King from the door man, the Prince from the Pauper, there is little distinction excepting breeding and indoctrinated finesses if both are equally sound and good individuals. The only division between men is morality, honour and integrity. A rich man with no honour, deceitful and arrogant is likened to a fool when compared to a penniless sage or a kindly elder with civility sufficing him common courtesy. The divisions of race, culture, class are distinct only by this code.

What has the modern striving for equality and egalitarianism produced, nations and societies where feminists rule are greater in evil deeds than perfectly balanced cultures, the divide between rich and poor is only the balance in ones bank, they are both morally reprehensible, equally Godless and uninspired to change emboldened by a media anti culture aggrandising all things perverse, debauched and degrading at the expense of respectability, civilisation and culture, to the detriment of society as a whole.

 

[pk70]

Salutations to the cult of learners,

this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board.

we should bow to no one! and no thing! it is ethically and morally wrong (according to my taste, and the cramp in my leg)...everybody and everything is equally useless in this world and we should rejoice in this truth...the primitive humanly constructed divisions between the sacred and the profane are also useless.

We should replace Bowing with High-Fiving (we should all high-five the holy-books/idols as well. the more senstive veers out there can opt for a hug :...The mighty High-five symbolizes the spirit of cooperation, victory, equality and joy in one swoop of the arm and hand...the bow is used to segragate and make status and heirarchy within the populace.

High-fiving is also alot more fun than a bow :happy:

Keep it Awesome
Sinister.

Sinister Ji
Let me first applaud you for being honest, daring to express what you feel. I always love to note down truthful behavior than hypocritical one. You are good at it, your sincerity has merit.
Now let’s consider comments in concept of the pursuit of the Creator.
Without humility, even civilized man is like a fully floated ball unable to still. It has no place in spiritual path; it is called a weight that drowns the soul by disabling it from floating over Maya-effects ever. Without humility, one is like a storm having a power to destroy everything in the way for very limited time. After that time lapses, it disappears by leaving a touch of being there for some moments. In spiritual world they are considered the poor ones who just wasted life in an illusion of being permanent. In the world where conceit and show off are considered influential weapons of achievement, in spiritual world, these are considered as signs of lowering the soul to the bottom after passing through a break of temporary joy and pleasures to plunge again into miseries eventually. High five is a fake expression; it has nothing sincere feelings save for a touch of conceited recognition. High five is dramatic hypocrisy being played under superficial gestures because all the reality of losing and gaining and their stunning effects, is tried to be hidden. Humility is an open gesture of respect and eagerness to learn. Without it, there is no possibility of spiritual pursuits, contrary to high five; it has built in energy to get elevated with spiritual enlightening. High five can be alright in the world but in spiritual world, it is a recipe of disaster. Hope you would try to understand what I have expressed in stead of rushing to nail down reaction.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Salutations to the cult of learners,

this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board.

we should bow to no one! and no thing! it is ethically and morally wrong (according to my taste, and the cramp in my leg)...everybody and everything is equally useless in this world and we should rejoice in this truth...the primitive humanly constructed divisions between the sacred and the profane are also useless.

We should replace Bowing with High-Fiving (we should all high-five the holy-books/idols as well. the more senstive veers out there can opt for a hug :...The mighty High-five symbolizes the spirit of cooperation, victory, equality and joy in one swoop of the arm and hand...the bow is used to segragate and make status and heirarchy within the populace.

High-fiving is also alot more fun than a bow :happy:

Keep it Awesome
Sinister.

A person who has nothing virtuous to say, stays queit. This is my humble request to you; you like disrespecting Sikhi and like doing it openly. Then instead of writing this on a site. Go to an amritdhari Singh and openly express yourself. Tell him how you feel about the religion and his Guru is a book. Have an open discussion with him, man to man, heart to heart.:yes:

 

[spnadmin]

Salutations to the cult of learners,

this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board.

we should bow to no one! and no thing! it is ethically and morally wrong (according to my taste, and the cramp in my leg)...everybody and everything is equally useless in this world and we should rejoice in this truth...the primitive humanly constructed divisions between the sacred and the profane are also useless.

We should replace Bowing with High-Fiving (we should all high-five the holy-books/idols as well. the more senstive veers out there can opt for a hug :...The mighty High-five symbolizes the spirit of cooperation, victory, equality and joy in one swoop of the arm and hand...the bow is used to segragate and make status and heirarchy within the populace.

High-fiving is also alot more fun than a bow :happy:

Keep it Awesome
Sinister.

Sinister ji

You know what? I agree with you. I should not bow, bend, kneel before SGGS. I also should not give Guruji the High 5. Why not? I should not do any of those things because no one and no thing and no force should make me do anything.

Being in the presence of Guruji is not about should nor is it about joking around. Anyway, not for me. Everyone is free to choose.

I bow, bend, kneel, prostrate myself before Guruji because I am moved from within. If I could dissolve into the floor, I would do that.

What cliches?

 

[pk70]

Sinister ji

You know what? I agree with you. I should not bow, bend, kneel before SGGS. I also should not give Guruji the High 5. Why not? I should not do any of those things because no one and no thing and no force should make me do anything.

Being in the presence of Guruji is not about should nor is it about joking around. Anyway, not for me. Everyone is free to choose.

I bow, bend, kneel, prostrate myself before Guruji because I am moved from within. If I could dissolve into the floor, I would do that.

What cliches?

What an expression of deep rooted faith that uproots the media influenced follow ups in context of spiritual longing! I bow to it.:yes:

 

[Sinister]

Sinister ji

You know what? I agree with you. I should not bow, bend, kneel before SGGS. I also should not give Guruji the High 5. Why not? I should not do any of those things because no one and no thing and no force should make me do anything.

Being in the presence of Guruji is not about should nor is it about joking around. Anyway, not for me. Everyone is free to choose.

I bow, bend, kneel, prostrate myself before Guruji because I am moved from within. If I could dissolve into the floor, I would do that.

What cliches?

WOW tuff crowd here!

I wanted to say something along these lines but i guess it came out wrong with a rather clownish post on high-five's.

I think people should have the freedom to do what they want, and what we think is right. The clichés are the ways in which we designate 'appropriate behaviours'. With a tremendous amount of vigor and skill we divide sacred from the profane even with gestures. Dos and Donts from authority irritate me.

What makes an honest reaction?…bowing for the sake of bowing does not accomplish anything…if you want to bow … you should be allowed to bow…if you want to do a high five you should be allowed to do a high five. The cliché is the bow itself…anyone who visits the guru should not feel inclined, mandated or obligated to bow. (but this is not the case)...no other gesture of respect would be as acceptable by the sangat or any other institutional sants/cardinals.

I honestly don’t believe in bowing nor do I think it is a natural inclination of some spiritual mind, by any measure…in fact I view it as the opposite, unnatural. for example, Looking up at the night sky is an extraordinarily humbling spiritual experience that makes many “all tingly inside”…but we or I never bow to the sky nor have I felt week in my limbs while gazing with awe and appreciation.

I think a bow, for most, is more about submission than showing humility. It’s history is so formal and so cold. Ordinary peasants did it when they surrendered to the corrupt authority of kings and nobles. So bowing is still not 'cool' with me even if it is a display of humility … it can just be a symbolic show similar to how pk70 described a high-five, full of some conceit and mostly fear (pascals wager). Humility comes when someone sits down and develops patience and like pk70 said develops curiosity. When humility arrives it will not be distinguishable with grand ritualized symbolic gestures like bowing. It will be far more discrete and will be seen in smaller almost sub-conscious expressions of curiosity, like a question or a peep over the shoulder (that is spirituality). If you were to go up to an idol and give it a great big bear hug, I would be more inclined to call that person spiritually dedicated (but then again even a hug can be superficial just like a bow or a high five).


opinions are opinions

we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Nudge Nudge, wink wink, say no more?

 

[Archived_Member4]

WOW tuff crowd here!

I wanted to say something along these lines but i guess it came out wrong with a rather clownish post on high-five's.

I think people should have the freedom to do what they want, and what we think is right. The clichés are the ways in which we designate 'appropriate behaviours'. With a tremendous amount of vigor and skill we divide sacred from the profane even with gestures. Dos and Donts from authority irritate me.

What makes an honest reaction?…bowing for the sake of bowing does not accomplish anything…if you want to bow … you should be allowed to bow…if you want to do a high five you should be allowed to do a high five. The cliché is the bow itself…anyone who visits the guru should not feel inclined, mandated or obligated to bow. (but this is not the case)...no other gesture of respect would be as acceptable by the sangat or any other institutional sants/cardinals.

I honestly don’t believe in bowing nor do I think it is a natural inclination of some spiritual mind, by any measure…in fact I view it as the opposite, unnatural. for example, Looking up at the night sky is an extraordinarily humbling spiritual experience that makes many “all tingly inside”…but we or I never bow to the sky nor have I felt week in my limbs while gazing with awe and appreciation.

I think a bow, for most, is more about submission than showing humility. It’s history is so formal and so cold. Ordinary peasants did it when they surrendered to the corrupt authority of kings and nobles. So bowing is still not 'cool' with me even if it is a display of humility … it can just be a symbolic show similar to how pk70 described a high-five, full of some conceit and mostly fear (pascals wager). Humility comes when someone sits down and develops patience and like pk70 said develops curiosity. When humility arrives it will not be distinguishable with grand ritualized symbolic gestures like bowing. It will be far more discrete and will be seen in smaller almost sub-conscious expressions of curiosity, like a question or a peep over the shoulder (that is spirituality). If you were to go up to an idol and give it a great big bear hug, I would be more inclined to call that person spiritually dedicated (but then again even a hug can be superficial just like a bow or a high five).


opinions are opinions

we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Nudge Nudge, wink wink, say no more?

Your post is an opinion, what the Gurus have said is not an opinion. You see the difference here. You want to do what you think is right. Go right ahead in the process of your "I want to do what I think is right." leave the insults to Sikhi aside otherwise be the man of your word and step up. I am speaking bluntly here for a reason. You take Sikhi as a joke and sit there for whatever reason and continue this disrespect. You're an agnostic your opinions are weak as this word.