Sikhism : An Offshoot Of Hinduism

[dalbirk]

pk70 ji,

Wjkk Wjkf


I am quoting only from the posts of the members who are speaking that sikhi is not an offshoot.I have not quoted that myself though I feel that way only.



Dalsingh ji:


Your claim that Vedas has been rejected is not a truth as per my understanding.Your argument has a major flaw stated below.

"If a secondary enactment rejects the claim and the original maintains, we are statutorily bound by the original Ordinance in the matter of interpretation.It would be fatal if the reliance ,in such cases, is made on the secondary Legislation that has its own interpretations and is not the explanation presented on the Lines of the main Law/eternal Law prescribed in the Granth. "

One can take only those provisions from the subsidiary ordinance to the extent that these match the original.If there is any addition in the Subsidiary ordinance the same should not be read in the context of the main Enactment. It is a subjective view but is followed in judicature.

In judicature we have some other principles as well.

In the original Bani It is not the Vedas that are asked to be rejected it is the manner in which these were put to misuse was forcefully asked to be abandoned.

vyd khih viKAwx AMqu n pwvxw ] (148-2, mwJ, mÚ 1)
The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

piVAY nwhI Bydu buiJAY pwvxw ] (148-3, mwJ, mÚ 1)
Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.


Admittedly, Bani admits the Vedas to be the word of God .How can the one word of God be inferior to another word of God.
[/FONT]
byd purwn isMimRiq suDwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,


kIny rwm nwm iek AwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.[/FONT]

References to Vedas

The following verses from the Guru Granth Sahib shed some light on its views on some aspects of Hindu scripture:
Sikhism does not have belief in Heaven/Hell system, transmigration, inequality of caste and gender and held the Vedas responsible for these fallacies in the contemporary society, the quote below from second Sikh Guru mentions the same view:

"ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥"


"It is the teachings of Vedas, which has created the concepts of sin and virtue, hell and heaven, and karma and transmigration. One reaps the reward in the next life for the deeds performed in this life -- goes to hell or heaven according to one’s deeds. The Vedas have also created the fallacy of inequality of caste and gender for the world." Aad Guru Granth Sahib, p. 1243

• Page 463 - ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥ - Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas.

• Page 791 - ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਖਾਇ ॥ - Reading the Vedas, sinful intellect is destroyed.

• Page 941 - ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਚੈ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ - The Gurmukh is pleasing to the True Guru; this is contemplation on the Vedas.

• Page 942 - ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥ - The Gurmukh understands the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas.

• Page 1188 - ਬੇਦ ਵਖਾਣਿ ਕਹਹਿ ਇਕੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ - The Vedas say that we should chant the Name of the One Lord.

• Page 148 - ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ - The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

• Page 355 - ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ - The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know His mystery.

• Guru Nanak, on page 1021 - ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
• - Neither the Vedas (four Hindu texts) nor the four Katebas [Semitic texts: the Torah, the Zabur (Psalms), the Injil (Gospel), and the Quran] know the mystery (of the Creator of the Cosmos).[9]

• Page 1126 - ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਅੰਧੁਲਉ ਧੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਈ ॥੩॥ - The Shaastras and the Vedas keep the mortal bound to the three modes of Maya, and so he performs his deeds blindly. ||3||

• Page 1237 - ਨਵ ਛਿਅ ਖਟ ਕਾ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਿਸਿ ਦਿਨ ਉਚਰੈ ਭਾਰ ਅਠਾਰ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੋਹਿ ॥ -

• You may study the nine grammars, the six Shaastras and the six divisions of the Vedas. You may recite the Mahaabhaarata. Even these cannot find the limits of the Lord.

Bhairao, Fifth Mehl - I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers... Guru Arjan Dev Page 1078 - Even the Vedas do not know the Guru's Glory. They narrate only a tiny bit of what is heard

The Guru Granth Sahib

I have quoted the entire passage so that neutrality in presentation is retained.

It is true that Gurus have ,at many places, stated that The Vedas cannot describe the Glory of God. But we have similar statements in Granth Sahib ji. Even in Jap ji Sahib Guru Nanak admits that even after knowing HIM he could not explain the Greatness of the Lord. Infact , no one can do that.Only one equal to HIM can do that.[Bani]


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Bani also admits the same.

All that is stated to reject the Vedas means that Vedas are supreme and are also word of God. Yes the defect found was that the Vedas admittedly created caste system i.e. a social issue.

Regarding the second point that Vedas did not know the limits of God , it can be said so for any Religious Book if Sikhi concept is based on the fact that God cannot be known or understood.


Alwhu AlKu AgMmu kwdru krxhwru krImu ] (64-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.


qw ky AMq n pwey jwih ] (5-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
but His limits cannot be found.[/FONT]

At many places it is also mentioned that He cannot be seen and understood and no one can describe HIM as it cannot be done thus even Granth sahib cannot also explain all the qualities og God.It has been admitted at many places.

I think the present discussion revolves round as to what is God and where is god.Let is see what Geeta has to state about this. I could not find much difference in this and what we follow.


[Commentary On Geeta]
1.1 Where is God?

God really is all pervasive. Space and Time are in Him. Yet His presence can be felt in the very pure heart of man.

fitj tje @jhnjmjhxyjhtjN gju*yjhd]gju*yjtjrN mjyjh ivjmj|wyjEtjdwjeQjeqj yjTjecCisj tjTjh ku= ..18>63..

"The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine"

1.
Do not remember the Lord as merely a personified power as Siva in Kailas, as Vishnu in Vaikunta, as the Father in Heaven, etc. but recognize Him as one who dwells in the heart of everyone.

Just as the address of a person is given in order that the seeker of that person may locate the individual in a busy town, so also, in order to seek, discover, and identify with the Lord, His `local address' is being provided here by Bhagavan Krishna.

2.
While saying that 'the Lord dwells in the heart of all living beings', the physical heart is not meant here. In philosophy, the word 'heart' is more figurative than literal. It is something like our saying that this individual has a 'large heart', or a 'good heart'. Here we only mean that the individual in question is a man of love and all humane qualities.


Residing thus in the heart-meaning, in the mental bosom of one who has cultivated the divine qualities of a cultured human being, such as, love, kindness, patience, cheer, affection, tenderness, forgiveness, charity, etc. the Lord lends His power for all the living creatures to act on: He energizes everyone. Everything revolves around Him like the unseen puppets which have no existence, no vitality, no emotion of their own; they are mere expressions of the will and the intention of the unseen hand behind them.
sjvj[syj cjhHN ›id sjiœivjQZo mj$j: smj|itj@jh[njmjpjoHnjN cj vjedEwcj sjvjE[rHmjevj vje–o vjedhntjk|”edivjdevj cjhHmj] ..15>15..

"And I am seated in the hearts of all, from Me are memory, knowledge, as well as their absence. I am verily that which has to be known in all the VEDAS; I am indeed the author of VEDANTA, and, the "knower of the VEDAS" am I."

He lives in the Hearts of all living creatures. Here the HEART does not mean the physiological heart but it is the metaphysical HEART . The term HEART, in philosophy, means, "mind which has been trained to entertain constantly the positive qualities of love, tolerance, mercy, charity, kindness, and the like". The Infinite

'DWELLS IN THE HEART' means, though He is present everywhere, the Lord is most conspicuously self evident, during meditation, in the HEART of the meditator. ||1.1||


Note: I have not deleted the sanskrit sholkas.If It is feasible I shall try to put them in Sanskrit as some of us would be interested in this as well.

Wjkk WjkF

Dear Sikh 80 ,
It may sound repetitive but if u go through this Vaar 1 of Bhai Gurdass Ji , PAURI 11 , u may see that Bhai Gurdass Ji actually crticises Rishi Vyasa Ji for terming himself as equal to Brahm ( All Powerful God ) in that . This resulted in the birth of ego which ultimately destroyed all the goodness of Rishi Vyasa . This whole Pauri is as follows

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri11:SearchGurbani.com

Vaar 1 Pauri 11 Vedanta
ਸਿਆਮ ਵੇਦ ਕਉ ਸੋਧਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਥਿ ਵੇਦਾਂਤੁ ਬਿਆਸਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ।
siaam vayd kau sodhi kari madi vaydaantu biaasi sunaaiaa|
Vyas (Badarayan) recited Vedanta (sutras) after churning and researching the thought frame of the Samaveda.
Line 1

ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਪਣਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਣਾਇਆ ।
kadanee badanee baaharaa aapay apanaa brahamu janaaiaa|
He put up before the self (atman) as identical to indescribable Brahm.
Line 2

ਨਦਰੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਲਿਆਵਈ ਹਉਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ।
nadaree kisai n|iaavaee haumai andari bharami bhulaaiaa|
He in invisible and the jiv wanders hither and thither in its delusions of self conceit.
Line 3

ਆਪੁ ਪੁਜਾਇ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਦਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ।
aapu pujaai jagat vichi bhaau bhagati daa maramu n paaiaa|
By establishing the self as the Brahm he is in fact established one's own self as worthy of worship and therefore remained unknown to the mysteries of loving devotion.
Line 4

ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੀ ਵੇਦਿ ਮਥਿ ਅਗਨੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤਪਤਿ ਤਪਾਇਆ ।
tripati n aavee vaydi madi aganee andari tapati tapaaiaa|
Churning of the Vedas could not obtain peace for him and he started scorching one and all in the heat of is ego.
Line 5

ਮਾਇਆ ਡੰਡ ਨ ਉਤਰੇ ਜਮ ਡੰਡੈ ਬਹੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਰੂਆਇਆ ।
maaiaa dand n utaray jam dandai bahu dukhi rooaaiaa|
The rod of maya always hung over his head and he suffered extremely because of the constant fear of the Yama, the god of death.
Line 6

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਉਪਦੇਸਿਆ ਮਥਿ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਗੁਨਿ ਗੀਤ ਕਰਾਇਆ ।
naaradi muni upadaysiaa madi bhaagavat guni geet karaaiaa|
Having obtained knowledge from Narad, he recited Bhagvat and thus eulogised God.
Line 7

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਰਨੀ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਇ ਤਰਾਇਆ ॥੧੧॥
binu saranee nahi koi taraaiaa ॥11॥
Without surrender before the Guru none could get across (the world ocean).
Line 8

As such a state of a GURMUKH is higher than even Rishi Vyasa , who died unfulfilled because he acted under the effect of Maya ( Ego ) . Gurbani does not state that the WORD OF THE GURU is equal to Vedas , rather it is much higher than the Vedas . Also Vedas don't reveal the truth about God .
Regards ,
Dalbir Singh

 

[dalbirk]

Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter

ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ ।
jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
​

Vaar 23 Pauri 9 Krsnachandravatar
ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ।
kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.

ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ।
leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).

ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ ।
mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further made them wonder struck.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ।
indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.

ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ ।
mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.

ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ ।
mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥
saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of the Guru.
~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
​

If we accept Bhai Gurdas Ji as the "key" to understanding Gurbani, we must accept where Gurbani speaks of Hindu, or puja and brahmins it is speaking to the corruption of religion found in age of Kaliyug. Nowhere does it say a new religion is being proclaimed. In fact by repeating message of yugs and avtaaras, Gurbani is proclaiming these Vedic truths. And clearly not only does Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji speak of Krishan avatar as sargun God and able to save and distinguishes the das avtaara in this way from all other demi-gods just exactly as Vaishnava Vedanta does. Whatever side of the debate we are on, such distinctions need to be acknowledged. If this were not the case, how could Gurbani proclaim the Naam of All-Pervading Ajooni nirgun God be HariKrishna and Raam and Govind and Gopala and Vasudeyva? If this was new religion, why not give a clearly distinguishing name for the nirguna? No! Gurbani proclaims the avtaaras are the sargun manifestation of the Nirguna. The nirguna is formless and can have no name, and just as Vaishnava Vedanta proclaims, states the ultimate One is the nirguna. And we know him through bhakti and Naam jap of the sargun names.


Hinduism, in particular Vaishnavism and some form of Shaivism is the mother of Sikh religion. It has no "new" revelation. Guruji is acknowledged an avtaara of this lineage, to bring Jyot of the nirguna for age of Kaliyug. And that is clearly what people recognize as a "Hindu" teaching. It's been said Hinduism is not a religion, but an art. This is not true. Hinduism is a clearly defined and ancient religion. It is based on Sruti, the revelation of the Vedas and Upanishads. Just because there are different sects, different schools, differnt philosophies which are all embraced as being Dharmic, doesn't mean Hinduism is no religion. Buddha is one of the das avtaara, and clearly influenced and clarified Advaita schools. Just as Gurbani claims Guru Nanak Dev Ji is. Clearly this entire ideology, philosophical background and even historical foundation fits within Sruti. In fact Vedas predict Guru Nanak in several places. So it cannot be danced around for convenience that the incredible body of Vedic philosophy is no religion at all, or so overly broad as to include completely different things. Gurbani and Vedic philosophy are almost word for word match and there is no contradiction. Could this exist with an entirely new religion, an entirely new revelation which dispensed with any validity or recognition of previous teachings? Why would a new religion be taught out of the voice of the old? And the answer is, because it's not a new religion. It's a new form of the ancient religion, the original form without the corruption of Manu Smritis. It is a reform movement, not a new religion.


~Bhul chak maaf

Dear Harjas Bhain Ji ,
I like to say Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a NEW FAITH altogether as is evident from following Vaar Of Bhai Gurdass Ji ( VAAR 1 , Pauri 45 )


Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri45:SearchGurbani.com


Line 3

ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ।
maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|
In the world, he established the authority (of his doctrines) and started a religion, devoid of any impurity (niramal panth).


AND

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri31:SearchGurbani.com




ਸਬਦਿ ਜਿਤੀ ਸਿਧਿ ਮੰਡਲੀ ਕੀਤੋਸੁ ਅਪਣਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ।
sabadi jitee sidhi mandalee keetosu apanaa pandu niraalaa|
Through (the power of the word) Shabad he conquered the siddhs and propounded his altogether new way of life.
Line 7


Bhai Gurdass Ji in his VAAR 1 , PAURI 31 & VAAR 1 , PAURI 45 is actually pointing that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a ALTOGETHER NEW RELIGION . So the statement is not true that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a reformist movement in Sikhism .
The mentioning of so many Hindu examples in Gurbani is due to the fact that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's target audience was primarily Hindu only . When in Baghdad or Mecca , he did not use Hindu examples at all , instead he used Muslim examples to make understand his point , similarly for yogis , he did use only Yogic terms .

Regards ,
Dalbir Singh

 

[Sikh80]

Dear Sikh 80 ,
It may sound repetitive but if u go through this Vaar 1 of Bhai Gurdass Ji , PAURI 11 , u may see that Bhai Gurdass Ji actually crticises Rishi Vyasa Ji for terming himself as equal to Brahm ( All Powerful God ) in that . This resulted in the birth of ego which ultimately destroyed all the goodness of Rishi Vyasa . This whole Pauri is as follows

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri11:SearchGurbani.com

Vaar 1 Pauri 11 Vedanta
ਸਿਆਮ ਵੇਦ ਕਉ ਸੋਧਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਥਿ ਵੇਦਾਂਤੁ ਬਿਆਸਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ।
siaam vayd kau sodhi kari madi vaydaantu biaasi sunaaiaa|
Vyas (Badarayan) recited Vedanta (sutras) after churning and researching the thought frame of the Samaveda.
Line 1

ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਪਣਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਣਾਇਆ ।
kadanee badanee baaharaa aapay apanaa brahamu janaaiaa|
He put up before the self (atman) as identical to indescribable Brahm.
Line 2

ਨਦਰੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਲਿਆਵਈ ਹਉਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ।
nadaree kisai n|iaavaee haumai andari bharami bhulaaiaa|
He in invisible and the jiv wanders hither and thither in its delusions of self conceit.
Line 3

ਆਪੁ ਪੁਜਾਇ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਦਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ।
aapu pujaai jagat vichi bhaau bhagati daa maramu n paaiaa|
By establishing the self as the Brahm he is in fact established one's own self as worthy of worship and therefore remained unknown to the mysteries of loving devotion.
Line 4

ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੀ ਵੇਦਿ ਮਥਿ ਅਗਨੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤਪਤਿ ਤਪਾਇਆ ।
tripati n aavee vaydi madi aganee andari tapati tapaaiaa|
Churning of the Vedas could not obtain peace for him and he started scorching one and all in the heat of is ego.
Line 5

ਮਾਇਆ ਡੰਡ ਨ ਉਤਰੇ ਜਮ ਡੰਡੈ ਬਹੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਰੂਆਇਆ ।
maaiaa dand n utaray jam dandai bahu dukhi rooaaiaa|
The rod of maya always hung over his head and he suffered extremely because of the constant fear of the Yama, the god of death.
Line 6

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਉਪਦੇਸਿਆ ਮਥਿ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਗੁਨਿ ਗੀਤ ਕਰਾਇਆ ।
naaradi muni upadaysiaa madi bhaagavat guni geet karaaiaa|
Having obtained knowledge from Narad, he recited Bhagvat and thus eulogised God.
Line 7

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਰਨੀ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਇ ਤਰਾਇਆ ॥੧੧॥
binu saranee nahi koi taraaiaa ॥11॥
Without surrender before the Guru none could get across (the world ocean).
Line 8

As such a state of a GURMUKH is higher than even Rishi Vyasa , who died unfulfilled because he acted under the effect of Maya ( Ego ) . Gurbani does not state that the WORD OF THE GURU is equal to Vedas , rather it is much higher than the Vedas . Also Vedas don't reveal the truth about God .
Regards ,
Dalbir Singh

I thank you for a quick response.

I admit my ignorance and do respect your views as I cannot respond to Vaaran ,But I have full reason to believe that what you have stated would be correct.

I do respect your views.

I shall react, if needed, only after going Thru. Vaaran. But it shall be very time consuming as Vaaran itself is a mini-Granth and worthy of respect.

Regards

 

[Sikh80]

Respected Dalbir ji,

My understanding that Vedas are also word of God was based on these lines and some other lines of Granth Sahib and it is in this context that I had stated that Vedas are also word of God.

However, I simply can not make out as to how Vaaran can be superior to the literal meaning that is assignable to the words that are stated in unambiguous manner in the main Scripture of Sikhs.
It should only help and should be treated with a degree of reverence that is fractionally/marginally lower/lesser than the Granth sahib.

Sikhism is all about being Sachiara and remembering HIM in sahaj .And the unsolved mystery is who pronounces Sikh philosophy.
Kindly let it go if you differ.


ccY cwir vyd ijin swjy cwry KwxI cwir jugw ] (432-19, Awsw, mÚ 1)
Chacha: He created the four Vedas, the four sources of creation, and the four ages


kl mY eyku nwmu ikrpw iniD jwih jpY giq pwvY ] (632-11, soriT, mÚ 9)
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Name of the One Lord is the treasure of mercy; chanting it, one obtains salvation.

Aaur Drm qw kY sm nwhin ieh ibiD bydu bqwvY ]2] (632-11, soriT, mÚ 9)
No other religion is comparable to this; so speak the Vedas. ||2||[/FONT]

Awpy swsqu Awpy bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.


Awpy Git Git jwxY Bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
He knows the secrets of each and every heart.[/FONT]

There is something that I miss.
So many lines about Vedas and still these are rejected in allied Vaaran! Something should be wrong with my way of thinking.


ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ ੫ ॥
Ga*oṛī sukẖmanī mehlā 5.
Gauree Sukhmani, Fifth Mehl,

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
Salok.
Shalok:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik*oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
Āḏ gur*ė namah.
I bow to the Primal Guru.

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
Jugāḏ gur*ė namah.
I bow to the Guru of the ages.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
Saṯgur*ė namah.
I bow to the True Guru.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥੧॥
Sarī gurḏėv*ė namah. ||1||
I bow to the Great, Divine Guru. ||1||

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥
Asatpaḏī.
Ashtapadee:

ਸਿਮਰਉ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥
Simra*o simar simar sukẖ pāva*o.
Meditate, meditate, meditate in remembrance of Him, and find peace.

ਕਲਿ ਕਲੇਸ ਤਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਮਿਟਾਵਉ ॥
Kal kalės ṯan māhi mitāva*o.
Worry and anguish shall be dispelled from your body.

ਸਿਮਰਉ ਜਾਸੁ ਬਿਸੁੰਭਰ ਏਕੈ ॥
Simra*o jās bisumbẖar ėkai.
Remember in praise the One who pervades the whole Universe.

ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਅਗਨਤ ਅਨੇਕੈ ॥
Nām japaṯ agnaṯ anėkai.
His Name is chanted by countless people, in so many ways.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥
Bėḏ purān simriṯ suḏẖākẖ*yar.
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,

ਕੀਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥
Kīnė rām nām ik ākẖ*yar.
were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.

ਕਿਨਕਾ ਏਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੀਅ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
Kinkā ėk jis jī*a basāvai.
That one, in whose soul the One Lord dwells -

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਗਨੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
Ŧā kī mahimā ganī na āvai.
the praises of his glory cannot be recounted.

ਕਾਂਖੀ ਏਕੈ ਦਰਸ ਤੁਹਾਰੋ ॥
Kāʼnkẖī ėkai ḏaras ṯuhāro.
Those who yearn only for the blessing of Your Darshan -

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
Nānak un sang mohi uḏẖāro. ||1||
Nanak: save me along with them! ||1||

ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸੁਖ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
Sukẖmanī sukẖ amriṯ parabẖ nām.
Sukhmani: Peace of Mind, the Nectar of the Name of God.

ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bẖagaṯ janā kai man bisrām. Rahā*o.
The minds of the devotees abide in a joyful peace. ||Pause||

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਬਸੈ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran garabẖ na basai.
Remembering God, one does not have to enter into the womb again.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਦੂਖੁ ਜਮੁ ਨਸੈ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran ḏūkẖ jam nasai.
Remembering God, the pain of death is dispelled.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਪਰਹਰੈ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran kāl parharai.
Remembering God, death is eliminated.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਦੁਸਮਨੁ ਟਰੈ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran ḏusman tarai.
Remembering God, one's enemies are repelled.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਕਛੁ ਬਿਘਨੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥
Parabẖ simraṯ kacẖẖ bigẖan na lāgai.
Remembering God, no obstacles are met.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗੈ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran an*ḏin jāgai.
Remembering God, one remains awake and aware, night and day.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਭਉ ਨ ਬਿਆਪੈ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran bẖa*o na bi*āpai.
Remembering God, one is not touched by fear.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੈ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran ḏukẖ na sanṯāpai.
Remembering God, one does not suffer sorrow.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸਾਧ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ॥
Parabẖ kā simran sāḏẖ kai sang.
The meditative remembrance of God is in the Company of the Holy.

ਸਰਬ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ॥੨॥
Sarab niḏẖān Nānak har rang. ||2||
All treasures, O Nanak, are in the Love of the Lord. ||2||

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran riḏẖ siḏẖ na*o niḏẖ.
In the remembrance of God are wealth, miraculous spiritual powers and the nine treasures.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਤਤੁ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran gi*ān ḏẖi*ān ṯaṯ buḏẖ.
In the remembrance of God are knowledge, meditation and the essence of wisdom.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran jap ṯap pūjā.
In the remembrance of God are chanting, intense meditation and devotional worship.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran binsai ḏūjā.
In the remembrance of God, duality is removed.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਇਸਨਾਨੀ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran ṯirath isnānī.
In the remembrance of God are purifying baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਾਨੀ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran ḏargeh mānī.
In the remembrance of God, one attains honor in the Court of the Lord.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਭਲਾ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran ho*ė so bẖalā.
In the remembrance of God, one becomes good.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਸੁਫਲ ਫਲਾ ॥
Parabẖ kai simran sufal falā.
In the remembrance of God, one flowers in fruition.

ਸੇ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਜਿਨ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਮਰਾਏ ॥
Sė simrahi jin āp simrā*ė.
They alone remember Him in meditation, whom He inspires to meditate.



In any case it is not meant to advance the discussion as I have a feeling that I was incorrect ab-intio.

Regards again.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥
dhhann dhhann gur dhhann janam sakayathh bhala jag ||
Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥
paathaal puree jaikaar dhhun kab jan kal vakhaaniou ||
Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥
har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​

Dear Harjas Bhain Ji ,
I like to say Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a NEW FAITH altogether as is evident from following Vaar Of Bhai Gurdass Ji ( VAAR 1 , Pauri 45 )

Line 3

ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ।
maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|
In the world, he established the authority (of his doctrines) and started a religion, devoid of any impurity (niramal panth).

mariaa, has conquered, he has killed
jagati (Sanskrit): In the world, world
sikaa, saints, teachings, to learn
viichi, within, among
niramal, pure
pandu, path
chalaaiaa, leads us on, established, carries out



"The world has been conquered within by His teachings. Nanak has established the pure path."

Certainly "doctrines' doesn't appear anywhere in this vaaran.

Even if we interpret pandu as panth and change to say: "Nanak has established the pure religion." There's nothing in the phrase to suggest He has started a new religion with it's own doctrines or anything like that. So it's misleading to translate anything about doctrines, authority, starting a new religion. Because those words are not there, the context is not there.


And the proof is context:

ਚੜ੍ਹੇ ਸਵਾਈ ਦਿਹਿ ਦਿਹੀ ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ।
charhhay savaaee dihi dihee kalijugi naanak naamu dhiaaiaa|
His impact increased by leaps and bounds and he made people of kaliyug remember Nam.

ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਦੁਖ ਸਬਾਇਆ ।
vinu naavai horu manganaa siri dukhaan day dukh sabaaiaa|
Desiring anything except the Nam of the Lord, is invitation to multiplying sufferings.

ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ।
maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|​

​

"The world has been conquered within by His teachings. Nanak has established the pure path."​

If Gurbani intended Sikhism to establish a new religion, it would clearly be stated in Gurbani itself, and not only found in some isolated phrase from Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaars. If you establish a new religion there isn't anything gupt, or hidden which requires diligence to uncover. Moreover, Gurbani doesn't contradict. When Gurbani says that the nirgun Lord brought the avtaaras into being, and that the Jyot from the das avtaaras is now in Guruji, that is the continuance of a pure path of righteousness which leads people to God. It is not some out of context new religion. It is re-establishing the true Dharma, the righteousness of the original spiritual path to liberation. Think logically, if it is the foundation of a new religion, it would have new doctrines. But it is a continuation of the original teachings. So everything in this vaaran is about Guru Nanak being so great He has established the righteousness of the Dharma in the Kalyug when it had fallen down. Because He is Shabad-Jyot of the nirguna, He leads suffering creation back to remembrance of the Lord. Guru Nanak is not great because He founded a new religion, but because He comes to the world in age after age to establish the Dharma and be a Light in darkness. He is the sarguna, avataar of the nirgun Lord Himself, that is why Guru Nanak is so great. He loves us. The Lord Himself comes to us, "You are lost and suffering, come back to Me." Again, logical proof would be... what is the new religion teaching? If the path and teachings are same as the original what can be said? Gurbani itself is saying Guruji is an avtaara who came to the world as Raam, as Krishna and now:

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.​

And this interpretation of Gurbani matches with the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji. So there is no contradiction whatsoever. Only when you try to force it to talk about new religion, new doctrines, rejection of ancient teachings like yugs, avtaaras, Dharma, and Naam mantra does it start to contradict. Since these were all taught in ancient Upanishads, the "new religion" part doesn't make sense. Religion, as translation of the word panth, or even pandu can make sense in this context, as in meaning "true religion," or "pure religion." But not "new" religion. The word "new" is not in the vaaran, or by implied meaning "started" in place of "new" does not appear either. So nothing is started. Nothing is new. Guruji did not "start a new religion with His own doctrines" per this vaaran. That is falsely implied to support a Singh Sabha anti-sanatan viewpoint. But all it does is create contradictions in Gurbani. It cannot even support itself as an accurate viewpoint by reconciling seeming contradictions, it creates unexplainable contradictions. To this day Sikhs are still debating is Guru Nanak God? Because they can't accept what the Gurbani says, because Singh Sabha rejects concept of avtaaras. Yet according to the sanatan view, not only is it clear as a bell, but it matches up on every level, not only within Gurbani, but even within Upanishads and Vaishnava Puranas. And with ideas and teachings of this complexity, that cannot be an accident.

ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ।
maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|
"The world has been conquered within by His teachings. Nanak has established the pure religion."​

"Whenever virtue declines and unrighteousness rises, I manifest Myself as an embodied being. To protect the Saints and Sages, to destroy the evil-doers and to establish Dharma(righteousness), I am born from age to age." ~Bhagavad Gita 4.7 and 4.8​

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[dalsingh]

Harjas:
If Gurbani intended Sikhism to establish a new religion, it would clearly be stated in Gurbani itself, and not only found in some isolated phrase from Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaars. If you establish a new religion there isn't anything gupt, or hidden which requires diligence to uncover.

Please also take note of what the Gurus actually did in their life times. Do you not think that they were taking steps to develop and propagate a new way of life?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Please also take note of what the Gurus actually did in their life times. Do you not think that they were taking steps to develop and propagate a new way of life?

First I would ask you to consider how different Sikhism can be from sanatan Dharma if Gurbani says Guruji is the avtaar who comes after Krishna? So we are looking at the re-establishment of original spirituality. Another example will be the teaching from Gurbani itself about yugs. As time increases, so the legs of religion fall off until in Kalyug, the Dharma is standing on only one leg. If avtaara comes to right the balance of Dharma, is that a new lifestyle? Because that implies there was no salvation before Guruji. Everyone must be reborn and become a Sikh to have salvation. And that is foolishness. Kabir ji was not of Sikh religion. Yet, Gurbani recognizes him as a Gurmukh and his bani belongs to Gurubani. So clearly, there is nothing in Sikhism which is like Christianity or Islam which consider themselves to be a kind of "new dispensation," that any other teaching before theirs was falsehood.

The Vaishnavas were the initial reformers who started free kitchens for the poor, admitting untouchables, women and Muslims, teaching that liberation is found in chanting and singing praise of the Names, Ram, Ram, Govinda, Gopala, Mukundey, Niranjana, Vasudeyva. The key difference with Guru Nanak Dev Ji and all His forms, was the emphasis on householder and not monastic. But even this difference was predicted in the Vedas.

"The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi" ~Rig Veda​

"Vishnu bee chakrageih treithaa neikthei patham samudhseiaa paaeh serei swahaa"
"Vishnu will appear again, manifesting three main characteristics, Avtarhood, Householder family life and be a Rajah Yogi as well" ~Yujar Veda​

"The Kali Yuga shall dawn on Earth with radical manifestation of destruction of Karma and Dharma to such an extent that every situation shall be colored by sinful activities. At that distressful moment, the Creator shall send down a spiritual luminary in the form of NANAK from the Khatria clan. He will spread the message of NAAM, the Holy life Force, by introducing the primacy of meditation and thus washing clean the sinful ways by the waters of love." ~ Bhavishya (Bhavekhath) Purana​

"Wahyanti karyanti jathputi athak etwaha brahamadeya, teisah Gur et WAHEGURU"
"He will use a unique single syllable mantra which has not been utilized before at any Age or Era. This will be WAHEGURU." ~Patanjali​

Since these are ancient predictions... what is new?

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥
sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||3||8||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe.

ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥
naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||

ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
siree guroo siree guroo siree guroo sath jeeo ||
The Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the True, Dear Lord.

ਗੁਰ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ਨਿਜ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਇਹੈ ਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਹੋਇ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਲਹਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
gur kehiaa maan nij nidhhaan sach jaan manthra eihai nis baasur hoe kalyaan lehehi param gath jeeo ||
Respect and obey the Guru's Word; this is your own personal treasure - know this mantra as true. Night and day, you shall be saved, and blessed with the supreme status.
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​

Sikhism is a re-establishment of sanatan Dharma for the age of Kaliyug. It is in no way divorced from the original teachings of sanatan Dharma. That is a myth propagated by Singh Sabha reform. Gurbani clearly and very openly, speaks for and identifies itself. Guru Nanak Dev Ji will come again as Kalki avtaar. It even says so in Gurbani. So it is a lineage, a continuation. These are ancient teachings of righteousness originating in Vedanta. Where is the "new religion?"


~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Sikh80]

Please also take note of what the Gurus actually did in their life times. Do you not think that they were taking steps to develop and propagate a new way of life?

Dalsingh ji/Dalbirk ji

I have been stating quotes/tuks from the Granth sahib.This is the main scripture of sikhs. I do remember that you have also reacted quite strongly to Vaaran.

Is it necessary that we refer the Vaars instead of the Granth.

I have quoted about more than 10 lines wherein Vedas are held in high esteem by Granth sahib. No one could point out fault with that. Respected ranbir ji, has posted some lines out of which one line appeared to be saying something that did tantamount to that Vedas are not to be relied upon. In such cases don't you see that there are contradictory statements in the Bani,if it is read on face.

If 10 lines speak 'X' and 1 line speak "y'which line should we pick up for the context in which the references to vedas have been made. Surely, the answer should be context. But we have to find all the answers from Granth sahib and not from Vaaran.

Vaaran is not Dhur Ki bani.

I fail to reason out the Reason of reason of the reasoning for this kind of reasoning.
We are referring to two scriptures; One is main and has a view the other is non-main and has a view.

Which view should prevail.?

Vaaran should be to help the things that are not fully explained in Granth sahib. Guru ji knew much more than his scribe.

Whenever an Eternal ordinance is passed one looks for the intention in the Ordinance and not the debates and thinking that might have gone before promulgation of the main ordinance.In the context Vaaran holds the same position. Correct me please.


Regarding your comment above ,irrespective of whether it is a derivative of vedas or sanatan Dharma or not, I do feel that Sikhi is only a way of life and practice of Naam jap and as to how to be sachiara and may be much more.

This is the essence of the Granth sahib besides many other flaovors that I cannot even count. For the time being I conclude that vaaran has its independent identity and that should not be the case at all.


Further, when we say that the sikh philosophy is .."....."
Whom are we referring to the pronouncer of this sikh philosophy.
Please clarify the points raised on this specific issue. We are not Discussing Hinduism here.

Wjkk WjkF

 

[pk70]

(quote)
Vaaran is not Dhur Ki bani.

I fail to reason out the as Reason of reason of the reasoning for this kind of reasoning.

Wow, when Bhai Gurdas Ji is needed, use him, otherwise discard his views because it doesn't suit into argument. Wonderful is the debate and wonderful are the debaters.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Bhai Gurdas Ji is authoritative. The quest is to find the closest approximation to absolute truth which is humanly possible given people's varied backgrounds, and understanding. I have no interest in propaganda to bolster a viewpoint. By propaganda I mean deliberately ignoring, censoring or otherwise invalidly discrediting a viewpoint because it's not the one I personally favor.

I have already radically changed my position on a number of issues because I myself have become convinced the different viewpoint has more credibility.

One thing I do notice, when the mainstream Singh Sabha (and by this I mean Sikh sovereignty anti-Hinduism) viewpoint is asserted, it is often done so without balancing the bani. In other words, a particular phrase or tuuk will be cited expecting it to be definitive proof, rather than answering or tackling the troublesome bani's which are the polar opposite. In my opinion, all bani must be balanced and reconciled. The true opinion is not going to lie on any extreme, answering one tuuk but contradicting another. Where there are seeming contradictions, that's the place where a philosophy forum is good to sort things out, because you can listen intently to other interpretations.

Nothing I believe or say will qualify an opinion for anyone else. But the fact we can engage in discussions from radically different perspectives, is for me, a learning process. I would hope if there is anything useful in what I share for someone, they can use it. Because ultimately, every individual interprets bani for himself based on where he/she is at. My opinion will change and mature over time. I can only learn from all of you.

Again, Bhai Gurdas Ji is VERY authoritative. At least, much more so than I myself. That doesn't mean I accept every interpretation of what Bhai Gurdas is being credited with saying. It means I will try to look very carefully over it and modify my opinions as needed. Bhai Ji IS the KEY to understanding Gurbani.

 

[dalsingh]

Harjas - Not everything the Singh Sabha movement produced was negative.

 

[Sikh80]

(quote)
Vaaran is not Dhur Ki bani.

I fail to reason out the Reason of reason of the reasoning for this kind of reasoning.

Wow, when Bhai Gurdas Ji is needed, use him, otherwise discard his views because it doesn't suit into argument. Wonderful is the debate and wonderful are the debaters.

Pk70 ji,

Yes, we all are wonderful because our Creator is also wonderful and that is how the things should be
Have seen your comments made in isolation.

It is only through discussions that we learn and appreciate the others view points. No one has discarded anyone. We could not find area of convergence. I had to leave on account of the fact that I do not want to invite the wrath of the other respected members who have a strong view about the subject being discussed. This balancing act is also a must for the healthy promotion of the discussion and hence learning.

However, I have learnt a lot from this discussion and that is discussion all about.

You may like to reply as to which view should we take as that one should prevail in case there is some clarification sought on the point where there is conflict between the Vaaran and the Granth Sahib.

Common sense approach tells us that main scripture cannot be overlooked while referring to Vaaran. As other members have not responded on this ,I shall request you to opine.

You may kindly like to reply to the doubts expressed in relation to Main Bani of sikhs and Vaaran which I would ,right now, not call this as Dhur ki Bani as it is not and was never so. How can it be so.?

It is again an area a term that we should discuss.

We have many grey areas that are to be sorted out. We are all individuals with unique way of appreciating things on account of our attitudes and impressions of the things. We try to sort it out through discussions only. This is a learning process for all of us.

If ,in the process of discussion, one opts to leave the discussion on account of likely mis interpretation of things it should be explained as to what is vaaran in relation to Granth.

and
who actually is the one who pronounces the sikh philosophy; I have the presumption that the interpretation of the philosophy is also subject to change over a period of time. Guru ji has Given us Bani that has to be reconciled as there are some statements that are not self supportive but are in conflict with each other at some places.

Sikhi does not believe in Incarnation of god is well stated in Granth sahib. But then we have many who would not find it so after going through the scripture.

Even as a learner one tries to make a point and bring it to the notice of others. Silence is not the best way of looking for answers nor the abandoning the discussion either.

Who gives us Naam ,is clarified in the Granth. But then we take 'waheguru' as naam. It may or may not be so as per the appreciation of things.

The Ardas of sikhs also states 'Guru Har.... Dhiyaye jis dhite sub-dukh jaye'. Why don't we say that we should remember Him when we are not at peace.?

There are many other tuks that I do want to discuss. And I shall discuss provided I get a reply. If one choses to remain silient, it is his /her prerogative.

The debates become useless if someone takes a decision to opt out abruptly for HIs belief sysyem has become so much ingrained in the mind that one is not able to even listen to the view points.
Being judgmental about other is not likely to serve the purpose.

It may look to be of academic in interest. But we all are responsible to the posterity. The quest goes on like this only and those with better understanding should help others in the process of learning the things that we hold in reverence i.e bani.


Regards !

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Harjas - Not everything the Singh Sabha movement produced was negative.

I'm not really interested in any opinion of negative or positive. What interests me from a research perspective is finding there exists a unique organization whose establishment coincides with British Raj plans to divide Indian communal groups that had lived in harmony for generations. An organization set up whose express objective was to remove all traces of Hinduism from Sikhism, to deny any relationship with Hindu culture, and to expunge from Gurdwaras and Gurbani any definitions or interpretations favoring sanatan identity.


THAT is what you call massive, deliberate, historical and spiritual distortion. And it's very existence is propagandistic and suspect. It's influence on modern Sikhism is absolute with all central Sikh authority and majority of Gurdwaras subscribing to the Singh Sabha world-view which blindly rejects the sanatan heritage of Sikhism.


"Everything that was against Gurus teaching was rejected. Rites and customs considered consistent with Sikh doctrine and tradition were established."
Yet, they can't even explain eulogy to das avtaara in SGGS Ji and Dasam Granth bani, besides claiming it is all a "historical footnote," "some manipulation of familiarity for Hindu masses," or "mythology." They overlook tuuks of Gurbani which claim Guru ji Himself is an avtaara. It is propagandistic to assert this world-view was the correct one, and it massively reorganized and redefined Sikh institutions establishing central control while demonizing the sanatan history. How anyone can accept such an institution as historically credible defies logic. Modern Sikh history and self-definition started in 1879. It has no credible history past that date from these "scholarly" sources.

Sanatan Singh Sabha is the original Singh Sabha formed in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar. The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism as Sikhs to be a wider denomination of Sanatan Dharma by one who practices karma and bhakti [of God] in any way for the achievement of Moksha, or spiritual liberation.

As a purely political reaction to the formation of the Sanatan Singh Sabha, a second Singh Sabha was formed and named the Tat Khalsa ('True' Khalsa) by The Governing British Administration based at Lahore in 1879 [also called Lahore Singh Sabha]. The British Raj utilized the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia Sikhs to apply their ‘divide and rule’ policy which sought to negate Sanatan Sikhism in the name of ‘reform’ whereas Sanatan Sikhism is predominantly inclusive, the Tat Khalsa is not.

While Max Arthur McAuliffe achieved the position of Deputy Commissioner in Punjab in 1882, Macauliffe wrote the popular Tat Khalsa text. ‘It is admitted that a knowledge of the religions of the people of India is a desideratum for the British officials who administer its affairs and indirectly for the people who are governed by them so that mutual sympathy may be produced. It seems, at any rate politic to place before the Sikh soldiery their Guru’s prophecies in favor of the English and the texts of their sacred writings which foster their loyalty.’ ‘The Sikh Religion’,1909, M.A. Macauliffe, Preface xxii

From the above quote, it is clear that one of the main objectives for Macauliffe was to inculcate loyalty within Sikhs for the British Raj. At the time, the Sanatan Sikh Raj had been displaced by the British Raj, and as such, Sanatan Sikhs, especially the Akali Nihangs, were naturally very hostile towards the British.
Sanatan Singh Sabha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Astroboy]

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਬਹੁ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਪੇਖੇ ਸਰਬ ਢਢੋਲਿ ॥
बहु सासत्र बहु सिम्रिती पेखे सरब ढढोलि ॥
Baho sāsṯar baho simriṯī pėkẖė sarab dẖadẖol.
The many Shaastras and the many Simritees - I have seen and searched through them all.
ਪੂਜਸਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਅਮੋਲ ॥੧॥
पूजसि नाही हरि हरे नानक नाम अमोल ॥१॥
Pūjas nāhī har harė Nānak nām amol. ||1||
They are not equal to Har, Haray - O Nanak, the Lord's Invaluable Name. ||1||

 

[Sikh80]

Yes namjap ji,Har Harey! is the Name of Hindu God. It was the compulsion of the time that Guru Sahib had to incorporate these terms. Har Haray! would be taken as Shiva. Har Har Mahadev, is also, generally, meant for addressing Lord Shiva only.
I do not know that you want to convey.
The Broader question is how to reconcile the Tuks in Bani that are contradictory in nature and what is the role of Vaaran in this context.
Can these supersede the Granth.?

 

[Sikh80]

Namjap ji,


I am giving below a line that states clearly that if one goes through the Vedas and allied scriptures understand the essence of the formless. It is in such a situation that one finds that there is a need of reconcilation of the things. I am not a critic ,just studying to conceptualize the things.To whom should I refer to make the things clear as to follow the lines that you have quoted or be governed by that is stated below.?

Should I be governed by Vaaran!!
Or
just leave the things and do Simran......



Shalok, First Mehl:
swsqR byd purwx pV@Mqw ] (1242-13, swrMg, mÚ 1)
Some read the Shaastras, the Vedas and the Puraanas.
pUkwrMqw AjwxMqw ] (1242-13, swrMg, mÚ 1)
They recite them, out of ignorance.
jW bUJY qW sUJY soeI ] (1242-13, swrMg, mÚ 1)
If they really understood them, they would realize the Lord.

 

[pk70]

(Pk70 ji,

Yes, we all are wonderful because our Creator is also wonderful and that is how the things should be
Have seen your comments made in isolation.

It is only through discussions that we learn and appreciate the others view points. No one has discarded anyone. We could not find area of convergence. I had to leave on account of the fact that I do not want to invite the wrath of the other respected members who have a strong view about the subject being discussed. This balancing act is also a must for the healthy promotion of the discussion and hence learning.
(quote Sikh80)

Sikh 80 Ji

Please reread Bhain Harjas ji's response just after my comments, she understood my comments and did her best to clarify it, then compare your response to my comments; that clearly says you just want to look on words and come up with the old questions already answered. I don't call it debate, its dragging. Nothing personal, as you claim you are learning why do you smell anger from other members who are responding to your repeated( and answered) questions. Till August 2, I am not able to participate in debate ( though its more dragging)actively but i shall come back. Guru Shabad quoted Nam jap ji is clear, you already stated in understanding Gurbani that words should be understood in their contexts, why you are stating it is for Shiva. If we follow that kind of interpretation then Gurbani will be guiding Sikhs to worship Ram, Krishan, Shiva, Vishnu and many more sending them back into thick mist they were before Guru Nanak. Playing with the words do not solve the issue, there is no contradiction in Gurbani. I shall prove you that one has to follow Gurbani in totality. Some time I feel, what is the use, gentleman once says" Yes now I understand, next time comes up with same kind of question only language is different.Please bear in mind, I am not angry, just trying to converse with you based on points already discussed. Excuse me. Rest next time.

 

[Astroboy]

Sikh80 Ji,

Let me give you a different approach to understand God.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The subject matter of the whole Veda is divided into [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
2. Karma-Kanda
3. Upasana-Kanda
4. Jnana-Kanda. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Karma-Kanda or Ritualistic Section
deals with various sacrifices and rituals. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Upasana-Kanda or Worship-Section deals
with various kinds of worship or meditation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Jana-Kanda or Knowledge-Section deals with the
highest knowledge of Nirguna Brahman. (Nirguna = without
attributes or forms. Brahman = the Supreme Reality).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Mantras and the Brahmanas
constitute Karma-Kanda (rituals).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Aranyakas constitute Upasana-Kanda (worship).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Upanishads constitute Jnana-Kanda (knowledge).

The above is a summary of Hindu scriptures.
Below is an extract from the Buddhist perspective of Spiritual attainment:-

[/FONT] Wishfulfilling Jewel


Introduction

This sadhana includes two practices revealed by the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri. The first is a special Guru yoga in which we visualize our Spiritual Guide as Je Tsongkhapa, who himself is a manifestation of Manjushri. By relying upon this practice, we can purify negativity, accumulate merit, and receive blessings. In this way, we shall naturally accomplish all the realizations of the stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra, and in particular we shall attain a very special Dharma wisdom.
The second practice is a method for relying upon the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden. Through this, we can overcome obstacles to our practice and create favourable conditions so that we can nurture and increase our Dharma realizations. If we rely upon the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden sincerely, our faith in Je Tsongkhapa will naturally increase and we shall easily gain experience of the pure Buddhadharma transmitted directly to Je Tsongkhapa by the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri.
These two practices are the very essence of the New Kadampa Tradition of Mahayana Buddhism. If we practise them regularly and sincerely, we shall reap a rich harvest of pure Dharma realizations, and eventually come to experience the supreme joy of full enlightenment.


Here's another Buddhist meditation technique.


Taste these melting moments of immeasurable, mindless meditation. The psychology of meditation may be about nothing - or emptiness - but being ‘in the zone’ enhances your creativity.. immeasurably.
Letting go, let flow..
Buddhist monks talk of the ordered steps of ‘letting go’ of mental hindrances, inhibitions and traps that exist in our thought patterns – from the past – which prevent us from experiencing NOW – the full and passionate perception of ‘what is’ – within and without – seeing your mental potential.. finding your ‘great creative center’ .. letting go, let flow..
So sit comfortably with a straight back, relax and..
Focus
My favorite monk writes: “…full sustained attention on the breath..
then full sustained attention on the beautiful breath.”
After that, meditator, you drop off a mental cliff into ‘emptiness’ ... where your breath will seem to have disappeared and you are now sitting in light ... ...
.. soft, subtle pulses of cloud light constantly emerge from a pin-point center.. expanding then evaporating and diffusing..
All is very still in the body.

Purification
De-stressing will happen naturally if you remain silent, calm and thoughtless.. letting go of whatever thoughts arise, just observing and experiencing the continual outflowing from a pin-point center.
Whatever 'happens' - it's OK
Seeing the cleansing, don’t interfere with its natural ways.
Simply ...
Flow like water
You will arrive more whole and integrated, altogether deeply relaxed and more creative. Pleasurable endorphins will flow in you.
Feeling CONNECTED to .. everything

The psychology of meditation reveals scientifically that in these moments you are simultaneously more healthy on all levels and your brain is freed to process information and solve problems more creatively.
In computer terms you’ve freed up disk space and added 2 gigs of RAM. And that, my friend, is the psychology of meditation in a nutshell. There's more to come about the scientific evidence for all of this!

Meditation's beneficial effects on heart rate, blood pressure, the chemistry of stress, brain waves, breathing and creativity are well known and documented.
One of the earliest researchers of the psychology of meditation was Dr Herbert Benson, Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard University, USA, in the 1970s. I highly recommend his popular 1975 book: The Relaxation Response. After this book appeared, thousands of Western doctors began to 'prescribe' meditation for stress-related illnesses, in place of medication.. Food for thought ...

 

[dalsingh]

I'm not really interested in any opinion of negative or positive. What interests me from a research perspective is finding there exists a unique organization whose establishment coincides with British Raj plans to divide Indian communal groups that had lived in harmony for generations. An organization set up whose express objective was to remove all traces of Hinduism from Sikhism, to deny any relationship with Hindu culture, and to expunge from Gurdwaras and Gurbani any definitions or interpretations favoring sanatan identity.


THAT is what you call massive, deliberate, historical and spiritual distortion. And it's very existence is propagandistic and suspect. It's influence on modern Sikhism is absolute with all central Sikh authority and majority of Gurdwaras subscribing to the Singh Sabha world-view which blindly rejects the sanatan heritage of Sikhism.

OK. I get your point but also understand that the movement also did much to put Sikhism in perspective for the 21st century.

It actually saved Sikhism from "sanatanism" which essentially blurs all boundaries to create a melange of beliefs under the guise of some organised belief, which it is not.

For me personally, I believe we owe a great debt to the movement for setting trends against the mythologisation of Sikh heritage. Due to this we now have a good idea of the real historical events of Sikh past without the Indian gloss that would have had the Gurus presented as archaic and supernatural characters (possibly with multiple arms) which takes away from their real achievements. Singh Sabha played a part in helping to create a confident research based historiography for Sikhs which santanism is incapable of doing. You know, when you want to destroy a people you can do it by destroying their historical identity. Singh Sabha people, initiated the movement to portray Sikhism in a rational and modern idiom. This is probably one of the reasons why it is slandered in western academic circles because it can actually offer an alternative narrative to the white supremacist one.

The position today should be to learn from the movements failures and successes and using this set the momentum for Sikhi in the 21st century. This does not mean erasing any reference to things perceived as Hindu. It also does not mean disowning the Singh Sabha movement's paradigm completely. You seem to be struggling with this and have adopted a very polarised view, which sees in either santanist or Singh Sabhian. This is a massive over simplification of Sikh heritage.

 

[Astroboy]

Paul Twitchell, writer of fiction, takes his audience to the ocean of love within.
The following "Tiger's Fang" excerpt describes the culmination of a series experiences detailed in the previous one hundred pages where Paul has been shown a series of worlds or planes leading up to his current state of light devoid of matter or form:

"Then I saw it. You might say it was a mirage, a hallucination, a trick of this world. But then I did see it. The light of God! It was standing above all in the center of the world; the light was fuzzy, shiny and bright, not too bright, just enough. It hung in the center of the landscape within the empty space of this world, a great mass of light, so immense that I cannot describe it, gleaming in the gulf of space. While watching it I began to pray, not in words but in impressions. The scene passed and I felt myself moving gradually, a motion of going into something, a flowing like water. That is the closest description I can give. In a sense I was the same fluid as an atom of spirit. Yet it was motionless with an impression of watching, feeling the flow and the deep motion in every fiber of myself. The impulse went through me that the journey had ended. This was living in God. The music was keened, high and thin, as if coming from within myself. There was no seeing, no hearing, no feeling, just the knowledge that I was part of the absolute - just the intelligence that has power and freedom. Freedom! Yes, this was it. I never had this before. This was wonderful; the freedom to move as desired anywhere at any time. Then I knew that it wasn't the music that was heard but a suspension above me like an almost palpable thing; it faded, spiraled upward and became a part of the sound. Again it was there. It was the softest sound of breathing. I waited. "Who is there?" I sent out the vibratory command. The wave hung in the ether. it moved out and came back like a bolt from space but I shook it off and waited. The light became very strong around me and I knew I was standing in the center of it, suspended in space, an atom within the light atoms; there was no distinguishing them. Nothing! That is all I can say! Nothing! I was part of that cloud of light, a flaming robe around me in the center of this blinding light. Something entered into my heart, and there was flaming bliss, a glorious light that was the devotion, the adoration, aspiration, reverence, the glory of God, and the divine grace which all writers speak about when becoming one with God. I stood in the center of a mighty, gigantic light, with the current throbbing and pulsing through me. (The Tiger's Fang by Paul Twitchell, The Illuminated Way Press, pps.109-110) ​