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Sikhism : An Offshoot Of Hinduism

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Sikh80, Jul 18, 2008.

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  1. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter

    ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ ।
    jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
    At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.

    ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
    charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
    The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

    ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
    badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
    A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

    ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
    darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
    As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

    ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
    gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
    Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
    kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
    Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

    ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
    bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
    The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.

    ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
    paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
    He has liberated many fallen sinners.
    ~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji




    Vaar 23 Pauri 9 Krsnachandravatar
    ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ।
    kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
    The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.

    ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ।
    leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
    He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).

    ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ ।
    mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
    Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further made them wonder struck.

    ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ।
    indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
    Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.

    ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ ।
    mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
    When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.

    ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ ।
    mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
    Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service

    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥
    saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
    he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of the Guru.
    ~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji




    If we accept Bhai Gurdas Ji as the "key" to understanding Gurbani, we must accept where Gurbani speaks of Hindu, or puja and brahmins it is speaking to the corruption of religion found in age of Kaliyug. Nowhere does it say a new religion is being proclaimed. In fact by repeating message of yugs and avtaaras, Gurbani is proclaiming these Vedic truths. And clearly not only does Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji speak of Krishan avatar as sargun God and able to save and distinguishes the das avtaara in this way from all other demi-gods just exactly as Vaishnava Vedanta does. Whatever side of the debate we are on, such distinctions need to be acknowledged. If this were not the case, how could Gurbani proclaim the Naam of All-Pervading Ajooni nirgun God be HariKrishna and Raam and Govind and Gopala and Vasudeyva? If this was new religion, why not give a clearly distinguishing name for the nirguna? No! Gurbani proclaims the avtaaras are the sargun manifestation of the Nirguna. The nirguna is formless and can have no name, and just as Vaishnava Vedanta proclaims, states the ultimate One is the nirguna. And we know him through bhakti and Naam jap of the sargun names.


    Hinduism, in particular Vaishnavism and some form of Shaivism is the mother of Sikh religion. It has no "new" revelation. Guruji is acknowledged an avtaara of this lineage, to bring Jyot of the nirguna for age of Kaliyug. And that is clearly what people recognize as a "Hindu" teaching. It's been said Hinduism is not a religion, but an art. This is not true. Hinduism is a clearly defined and ancient religion. It is based on Sruti, the revelation of the Vedas and Upanishads. Just because there are different sects, different schools, differnt philosophies which are all embraced as being Dharmic, doesn't mean Hinduism is no religion. Buddha is one of the das avtaara, and clearly influenced and clarified Advaita schools. Just as Gurbani claims Guru Nanak Dev Ji is. Clearly this entire ideology, philosophical background and even historical foundation fits within Sruti. In fact Vedas predict Guru Nanak in several places. So it cannot be danced around for convenience that the incredible body of Vedic philosophy is no religion at all, or so overly broad as to include completely different things. Gurbani and Vedic philosophy are almost word for word match and there is no contradiction. Could this exist with an entirely new religion, an entirely new revelation which dispensed with any validity or recognition of previous teachings? Why would a new religion be taught out of the voice of the old? And the answer is, because it's not a new religion. It's a new form of the ancient religion, the original form without the corruption of Manu Smritis. It is a reform movement, not a new religion.


    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  2. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Hi Sikh 80 ji,

    I don't like really involving my family in this, but my Mother side have Hindu Punjabi origins, and for me the difference between what we do and practice as Sikhs is quite stark from the average Hindu. This is not saying that culturally we are not the same...we eat the same food.....wear similar clothes....speak the same language....but Sikhi is a Culture in itself (as well as religion).

    This does not mean we are against Hindu's...I clearly cannot because it is part of my upbringing......it just means we acknowledge that there are differences in areas.

    Also the one God quote can be applied to many other faiths, i.e. Christianity, Islam, Judaism.

    As I have stated all along, Sikhi looks for common strands in all faiths.....this includes Hinduism, but it does not mean Sikhi is that faith!!
     
  3. OP
    Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Sikhi is a culture in itself.It is agreed that it is only a way of life.
    As pointed out by some members that Hinduism is not a religion but it is a term of art. It all depends upon in which context we are looking at the word 'Religion'. Religion should be ,as per that I understand, something that teaches us Morality that leads us to spiritual wisdom.

    I quote from the commentary on Geeta.{taken from internet]

    Quote


    The term Dharma is one of the most intractable terms in Hindu philosophy. Derived from the root dhar (Dhri) to uphold, sustain, support, the term Dharma denotes "that which holds together the different aspects and qualities of an object into a whole". Ordinarily, the term Dharma has been translated as religious code, as righteousness, as a system of morality, as duty, as charity, etc. But the original Sanskrit term has a special connotation of its own which is not captured by any one of these renderings. The best rendering of this term Dharma that I have met with so far is, "the Law of Being" meaning, "that which makes a thing or being what it is." For example, it is the Dharma of the fire to burn, of the sun to shine, etc.

    Dharma
    means, therefore, not merely righteousness or goodness but it indicates the essential nature of anything, without which it cannot retain its independent existence. For example, a cold dark sun is impossible, as heat and light are the Dharma s of the sun. Similarly if we are to live as truly dynamic men in the world, we can only do so by being faithful to our true nature, and the Geeta explains "to me my Dharma."

    Unquote

    I have given the Links and one can refer the source document as well.[Kindly click under Dharma[

    In this context Sikhism is only a bye-product of the philosiphy of Upnishdas and Vedas.Religion is philosophy in action.

    "From time to time an ancient philosophy needs intelligent re-interpretation in the context of new times, and men of wisdom, prophets, and seers guide the common man on how to apply effectively the ancient laws in his present life."[quoted]

    It is how I look at sikhism i.e the application of old concepts .

    Let us see as to what is Geeta in the context.

    IF THE Upanishads are the text-books of philosophical principles discussing man, world and God, the Geeta is a hand-book of instructions as to how every human being can come to live the subtle philosophical principles of Vedanta in the actual work-a-day world. Sikhi does admit though it does not admit Geeta as any scripture except at one particular place in bani.I shall post and paste the same when I have located the same.

    Needless to mention that I can quote many things from Geeta and one shall be surprised to see as to how the science of soul and mind and God etc, are conceptualized in Hinduism. There is nothing new in this except Naam about which we do not find clarity at all and that we may discuss or not discuss is a matter of mutul agreement and depends upon the level of individual convenience.So far as i am concerned I am willing to discuss it as It shall help understand the basic concept of sikhism that,probably, has alienated sikhism from the 'ism' that we are discussing.


    The one God concept had to be stated on account of the fact that some members have stated that in Hinduism there is a concept of Devi and Devas. In sikh scriptures as well we have devi and Devas.The Bhatt bani and the status of Gurus being made equal to the God rejects the claim that sikhi does not believe in Demi Gods.

    In fact this is more alive and pronounced in Sikhism if we state that Sikh Gurus were Avtaars of God. It is stated at many places in bani.

    Regarding last point I shall sum up that there is nothing new in Sikhism.It is the adoption of the old Vedic concepts.IF THE Upanishads are the text-books of philosophical principles discussing man, world and God, the Geeta is a hand-book of instructions as to how every human being can come to live the subtle philosophical principles of Vedanta in the actual work-a-day world.If we try to digest properly the implications of the Geeta's advice in the light of Vedic lore, it becomes amply clear how actions performed without ego-centric desires purge the mind of its deep-seated impressions and make it increasingly subtle in its purification and preparation for greater flights into the Infinite Beyond. To explain this, we will just try to review a little the conception of the mind and its functions in our day-to- day life and one shall find many similarities in Sikhism. It may not be adoption from Hinduism. But it is all there in sikhism.

    Let us look at how at many places Granth sahib has made a reference to Vedas.Every scripture is to be understood for attainment of one 'worthy being' and so is true for vedas. One should practice and not theorize.

    vyd khih viKAwx AMqu n pwvxw ] (148-2, mwJ, mÚ 1)

    The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.


    piVAY nwhI Bydu buiJAY pwvxw ] (148-3, mwJ, mÚ 1)
    Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.

    It is true for Granth sahib as well and any other religious scriptures.

    jnim mrY qRY gux ihqkwru ] (154-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
    One who loves the three qualities is subject to birth and death.

    cwry byd kQih Awkwru ]
    (154-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
    The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.

    qIin AvsQw khih viKAwnu ] (154-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)

    They describe and explain the three states of mind,

    qurIAwvsQw siqgur qy hir jwnu ]1] (154-12, gauVI, mÚ 1)
    but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru.

    The Kundalini Jagran to achieve the fourth state is advocated in Hinduism.
    I do not mean that in sikhism same is to be practised ut it is also an accepted concept in Sikhism.


    As a concluding Line I shall quote the following.


    byd purwn isMimRiq suDwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
    The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,


    kIny rwm nwm iek AwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
    were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.

    And


    ccY cwir vyd ijin swjy cwry KwxI cwir jugw ] (432-19, Awsw, mÚ 1)
    Chacha: He created the four Vedas, the four sources of creation, and the four ages.

    And

    bRhmY byd bwxI prgwsI mwieAw moh pswrw ] (559-14, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

    Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, but the love of Maya spread.

    And

    Bani admits that even Vedas admit the glory of the name that may be different than that we have.Our concept of naam is also the same and has also been drawn from Vedas. I do not know as what is Naam.If you permit I can post many quotes of Granth Sahib about Naam .


    Awpy swsqu Awpy bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
    He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.


    Awpy Git Git jwxY Bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
    He knows the secrets of each and every heart.


    Awal Allah Nur Upaya......


    Today's Hukum Nama. I have put in my 4 questions in Black color in Italics.[ I have the fair presumption that many of us would be like me ....]

    [SIZE=-1]English Translation :[/SIZE]
    JAITSREE, FOURTH MEHL:
    The Lords Name does not abide within their hearts their mothers should have been sterile. These bodies wander around, forlorn and abandoned, without the Name; their lives waste away, and they die, crying out in pain. || 1 || O my mind, chant the Name of the Lord, the Lord within you. The Merciful Lord God, Har, Har, has showered me with His Mercy;

    the Guru[1] has imparted spiritual wisdom to me, and my mind has been instructed. || Pause
    [1.Who is Guru here]


    || In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lords Praise brings the most noble and exalted status; the Lord is found through the True Guru.[2]
    [2.Who is true Guru here]



    I am a sacrifice to my True Guru,[3] who has revealed the Lords hidden Name to me. || 2 ||

    3. Who is True Guru...Lord and what is the meaning of 'revealing of hidden Name .It is 'wahegur' or something else is alluded to.]

    By great good fortune, I obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Holy; it removes all stains of sin.



    I have found the True Guru, the great, all-knowing King; He has shared with me the many Glorious Virtues of the Lord. [4]
    || 3 || Those, unto whom the Lord, the Life of the world, has shown Mercy, enshrine Him within their hearts, and cherish Him in their minds. The Righteous Judge of Dharma, in the Court of the Lord, has torn up my papers; servant Nanaks account has been settled. || 4 || 5 ||
    [4] Who is True Guru here who is supposed to be sharing Glorious Virtues of Lord]
    Wednesday, 8th Saawan (Samvat 540 Nanakshahi) (Page : 697)

    Kindly expand on the terms Guru and Lord......You may take the pains of writing a pargraph on this claryfying Guru and Lord and Name .
     
  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Jios,

    I had posted that Hinuism is a "term of art" not an "art. " Hope this has not caused any confusion.
     
  5. OP
    Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    aad ji,
    I have edited the post and have retained that you have stated.

    I took 'art' as 'art of living' or 'way of living' and is not a religion. i.e Hinduism is not a religion But.....
    There is no point of discussion/confusion at all.
    But post does not analyse this term and is almost independent of the contextual meaning.

    Being constrained by my limited appreciation of the language I do have the benefit of interpreting things that my limited intellect permits.

    Thanks for pointing it out.
    I appreciate your approach and remain grateful for your concern.
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sikh80 ji

    Well thank you for clearing things up. I was not sure.
     
  7. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Last I am satying on this matter. It really matters not what path you follow so long as you are a seeker of truth. If you understand Sikhi in terms of Hinduism, then good for you. If another understands it in terms of Christianity or Islam, then good for them. Point is they are trying to understand Sikhi and Guruji uses Vedic concepts to explain Sikhi:

    My last post on this matter:

    Page 747

    ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ
    सूही महला ५ ॥
    Sūhī mehlā 5.
    Soohee, Fifth Mehl:

    ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ
    करम धरम पाखंड जो दीसहि तिन जमु जागाती लूटै ॥
    Karam ḏẖaram pakẖand jo ḏīseh ṯin jam jāgāṯī lūtai.
    The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector.

    ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਜਿਤੁ ਛੂਟੈ ॥੧॥
    निरबाण कीरतनु गावहु करते का निमख सिमरत जितु छूटै ॥१॥
    Nirbāṇ kīrṯan gāvhu karṯė kā nimakẖ simraṯ jiṯ cẖẖūtai. ||1||
    In the state of Nirvaanaa, sing the Kirtan of the Creator's Praises; contemplating Him in meditation, even for an instant, one is saved. ||1||

    ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਰੀਐ
    संतहु सागरु पारि उतरीऐ ॥
    Sanṯahu sāgar pār uṯrī*ai.
    O Saints, cross over the world-ocean.

    ਜੇ ਕੋ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਤਰੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    जे को बचनु कमावै संतन का सो गुर परसादी तरीऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Jė ko bacẖan kamāvai sanṯan kā so gur parsādī ṯarī*ai. ||1|| rahā*o.
    One who practices the Teachings of the Saints, by Guru's Grace, is carried across. ||1||Pause||

    ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਜਨ ਇਸਨਾਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਭਰੀਜੈ
    कोटि तीरथ मजन इसनाना इसु कलि महि मैलु भरीजै ॥
    Kot ṯirath majan isnānā is kal meh mail bẖarījai.
    Millions of cleansing baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage only fill the mortal with filth in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga.

    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੨॥
    साधसंगि जो हरि गुण गावै सो निरमलु करि लीजै ॥२॥
    Sāḏẖsang jo har guṇ gāvai so nirmal kar lījai. ||2||
    One who sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, becomes spotlessly pure. ||2||

    ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਹੋਈ
    बेद कतेब सिम्रिति सभि सासत इन्ह पड़िआ मुकति न होई ॥
    Bėḏ kaṯėb simriṯ sabẖ sāsaṯ inĥ paṛi*ā mukaṯ na ho*ī.
    One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.


    ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
    एकु अखरु जो गुरमुखि जापै तिस की निरमल सोई ॥३॥
    Ėk akẖar jo gurmukẖ jāpai ṯis kī nirmal so*ī. ||3||
    One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation. ||3||

    ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ
    खत्री ब्राहमण सूद वैस उपदेसु चहु वरना कउ साझा ॥
    Kẖaṯrī barāhmaṇ sūḏ vais upḏės cẖahu varnā ka*o sājẖā.
    The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
     
  8. OP
    Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Yes, reading does not bring liberation.It is the actual practice of the teachings that may. Same is and can be stated about Granth sahib ji.I am right now only reading bani. It is not likely to be fruitful unless I put it into practice.


    You may kindly like to answer the questions about Hukumama in relation to Gurus ,Lord and True Guru and related terms.


    Good Night ,Dear randip ji.It is about 11p.m. here.
    See U tomorrow.

     
  9. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    This is pretty much definitive on the matter no?


    To me the following vaar states otherwise:

    BG Vaar 9. P2

    ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੀ ਬਾਰੀਕ ਹੈ ਸਿਲ ਚਟਣੁ ਫਿਕੀ ।
    gur sikhee baareek hai sil chatanu dhikee|
    To be disciple of the Guru is very subtle activity and it is like licking of the tasteless stone.
    ਤ੍ਰਿਖੀ ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ।
    trikhee khanday dhaar hai uhu vaalahu nikee|
    It is thinner than the hair and sharper than the edge of the sword.

    ਭੂਹ ਭਵਿਖ ਨ ਵਰਤਮਾਨ ਸਰਿ ਮਿਕਣਿ ਮਿਕੀ ।
    bhooh bhavikh n varatamaan sari mikani mikee|
    Nothing is equal to it in present, past and future.

    ਦੁਤੀਆ ਨਾਸਤਿ ਏਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਇਕਾ ਇਕੀ ।
    duteeaa naasati aytu ghari hoi ikaa ikee|
    In the house of Sikhism, the duality gets erased and one becomes one with that One.

    ਦੂਆ ਤੀਆ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਸਣੁ ਕਕਾ ਕਿਕੀ ।
    dooaa teeaa veesarai sanu kakaa kikee|
    Man forgets the idea of second, third, when and why.

    ਸਭੈ ਸਿਕਾਂ ਪਰਹਰੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਇਕਤੁ ਸਿਕੀ ॥੨॥
    sabhai sikaan paraharai sukhu ikatu sikee ॥2॥
    Repudiating all the desires, the individual gets delight in the hope of one Lord.



    Does the following imply a connection to the previous sanatan dharm? I personally think not.

    BG Vaar 28. P 4
    ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੀ ਦਾ ਸਿਖਣਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ।
    gur sikhee daa sikhanaa guramukhi saadhasangati dee sayvaa|
    The way of learning the conduct of a Sikh of the Guru is that one should be the holy congregation.
    ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਨ ਸਿਖਿਆ ਗੀਤਾ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵਾ ।
    das avataar n sikhiaa geetaa gosati alakh abhayvaa|
    This mystery was not known even to the ten incarnations (of Vishnu); this mystery is beyond the Gita and its discussions.
    ਵੇਦ ਨ ਜਾਣਨ ਭੇਦ ਕਿਹੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਪੜਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਣੁ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ।
    vayd n jaanan bhayd kihu|ikhi parhi suni sanu dayvee dayvaa|
    The Vedas know not its secret though they may be studied by gods and goddesses.
    ਸਿਧ ਨਾਥ ਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਤੰਤ ਨ ਮੰਤ ਲਘਾਇਨਿ ਖੇਵਾ ।
    sidh naad n samaadhi vichi tant n mant|aghaaini khayvaa|
    The deep meditations of the siddhs, naths and even the tanta*tras could not cross the teachings and practices of Sikh way of life.
    ਲਖ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਨ ਗਏ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖੀ ਟੇਵਾ ।
    lakh bhagati jagat vichi|ikhi n gaay guru sikhee tayvaa|
    Millions of devotees flourished in this World but they also could not understand the life-discipline of the Sikhs of the Guru.

    ਸਿਲਾ ਅਲੂਣੀ ਚਟਣੀ ਸਾਦਿ ਨ ਪੁਜੈ ਲਖ ਲਖ ਮੇਵਾ ।
    silaa aloonee chatanee saadi n pujai|akh|akh mayvaa|
    This life is similar the licking of the saltless stone but its taste is incomparable even to the millions of fruits.



    Harjas: Although I agree that some "shifty" changes were introduced by the British, who attempted to manipulate elements of the Khalsa Fauj for their own imperialistic purposes. I don't,
    however, believe that Sikhism is an attempt to reestablish "sanatan dharam" as defined by yourself. I think you are right in being wary of potential political mischief and the impact it may have had on Sikhs but also understand that the period under Maharajah Ranjit Singh represented more temporal and political success than spiritual. Again this dialog has highlighted another key/crux of this debate: Was Sikhism as practiced under Maharajah Ranjit Singh, that which the Gurus preached. This is the matter that needs research and analysis.

    We can see the difference between the Khalsa under the sanatan influence compared to those closer to Dasmesh Pita's time strikingly when we consider how Sikhs, despite being poorly armed/trained and numbered, stubbornly refused to succumb the Moghuls. This was despite the most horrendous attempts to break them. Singhs of the early 1700s, underwent the harshest of times glowingly. Compare this to the Anglo-Sikh wars, where Singhs were numerically strong, battle hardened and well equipped. Unlike Moghul times when they had little open support and were hunted like dogs, they had a wealthy kingdom behind them.

    But what happened? After a few battles with the British they gave up fighting and many became sycophantic to the new rulers. Why did they not do this against the Moghuls earlier? Personally I believe it was because this "sanatan" thinking had penetrated them severely and they lost the original Khalsa spirit, which would never submit.

    Anyway - I don't think we will change our opinions, so we will have to agree to disagree. But I will say in closing, that not allowing a people to define themselves, to stifle their natural development as they collide with various ideas/philosophies is cultural imperialism at its worst.

    I would say at the heart of this lies notions of cultural supremecy, which attempts to dictate and define outside people according to its own needs and wants. Behind this further still is the implicit belief that people are too stupid/primitive to know themselves and define their own cultures. I am against this. Whether it is from British imperialism or if it arises from an Indian agenda of saffronisation.

    Sikhs to my eyes are a young fledgling community. Like all communities, they will evolve and adapt over time.
     
  10. pk70

    pk70
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    ( quote Sikh 80)
    Sikhi is a culture in itself.It is agreed that it is only a way of life.

    Sikh 80 Ji,
    Absolutely incorrect. Sikhi is a way of living Sikhism, many cultures have adopted it. It is so sad a faith of merit is just wrapped in a few flat words. It is immaterial you agree or so.
     
  11. OP
    Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    pk70 ji,

    Wjkk Wjkf


    I am quoting only from the posts of the members who are speaking that sikhi is not an offshoot.I have not quoted that myself though I feel that way only.



    Dalsingh ji:



    Your claim that Vedas has been rejected is not a truth as per my understanding.Your argument has a major flaw stated below.

    "If a secondary enactment rejects the claim and the original maintains, we are statutorily bound by the original Ordinance in the matter of interpretation.It would be fatal if the reliance ,in such cases, is made on the secondary Legislation that has its own interpretations and is not the explanation presented on the Lines of the main Law/eternal Law prescribed in the Granth. "

    One can take only those provisions from the subsidiary ordinance to the extent that these match the original.If there is any addition in the Subsidiary ordinance the same should not be read in the context of the main Enactment. It is a subjective view but is followed in judicature.

    In judicature we have some other principles as well.

    In the original Bani It is not the Vedas that are asked to be rejected
    it is the manner in which these were put to misuse was forcefully asked to be abandoned.


    vyd khih viKAwx AMqu n pwvxw ] (148-2, mwJ, mÚ 1)
    The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

    piVAY nwhI Bydu buiJAY pwvxw ] (148-3, mwJ, mÚ 1)

    Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.


    Admittedly, Bani admits the Vedas to be the word of God .How can the one word of God be inferior to another word of God.

    byd purwn isMimRiq suDwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
    The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,


    kIny rwm nwm iek AwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

    were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.

    References to Vedas

    The following verses from the Guru Granth Sahib shed some light on its views on some aspects of Hindu scripture:
    Sikhism does not have belief in Heaven/Hell system, transmigration, inequality of caste and gender and held the Vedas responsible for these fallacies in the contemporary society, the quote below from second Sikh Guru mentions the same view:

    "ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥"

    "It is the teachings of Vedas, which has created the concepts of sin and virtue, hell and heaven, and karma and transmigration. One reaps the reward in the next life for the deeds performed in this life -- goes to hell or heaven according to one’s deeds. The Vedas have also created the fallacy of inequality of caste and gender for the world."
    Aad Guru Granth Sahib, p. 1243
    • Page 463 - ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥ - Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas.


    • Page 791 - ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਖਾਇ ॥ - Reading the Vedas, sinful intellect is destroyed.


    • Page 941 - ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਚੈ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ - The Gurmukh is pleasing to the True Guru; this is contemplation on the Vedas.


    • Page 942 - ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥ - The Gurmukh understands the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas.


    • Page 1188 - ਬੇਦ ਵਖਾਣਿ ਕਹਹਿ ਇਕੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ - The Vedas say that we should chant the Name of the One Lord.


    • Page 148 - ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ - The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.


    • Page 355 - ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ - The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know His mystery.


    • Guru Nanak, on page 1021 - ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
    • - Neither the Vedas (four Hindu texts) nor the four Katebas [Semitic texts: the Torah, the Zabur (Psalms), the Injil (Gospel), and the Quran] know the mystery (of the Creator of the Cosmos).[9]


    • Page 1126 - ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਅੰਧੁਲਉ ਧੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਈ ॥੩॥ - The Shaastras and the Vedas keep the mortal bound to the three modes of Maya, and so he performs his deeds blindly. ||3||


    • Page 1237 - ਨਵ ਛਿਅ ਖਟ ਕਾ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਿਸਿ ਦਿਨ ਉਚਰੈ ਭਾਰ ਅਠਾਰ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੋਹਿ ॥ -


    • You may study the nine grammars, the six Shaastras and the six divisions of the Vedas. You may recite the Mahaabhaarata. Even these cannot find the limits of the Lord.
    Bhairao, Fifth Mehl - I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers... Guru Arjan Dev Page 1078 - Even the Vedas do not know the Guru's Glory. They narrate only a tiny bit of what is heard

    The Guru Granth Sahib

    I have quoted the entire passage so that neutrality in presentation is retained.

    It is true that Gurus have ,at many places, stated that The Vedas cannot describe the Glory of God. But we have similar statements in Granth Sahib ji. Even in Jap ji Sahib Guru Nanak admits that even after knowing HIM he could not explain the Greatness of the Lord. Infact , no one can do that.Only one equal to HIM can do that.[Bani]


    Main Page - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Bani also admits the same.

    All that is stated to reject the Vedas means that Vedas are supreme and are also word of God. Yes the defect found was that the Vedas admittedly created caste system i.e. a social issue.

    Regarding the second point that Vedas did not know the limits of God , it can be said so for any Religious Book if Sikhi concept is based on the fact that God cannot be known or understood.


    Alwhu AlKu AgMmu kwdru krxhwru krImu ] (64-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
    He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.


    qw ky AMq n pwey jwih ] (5-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
    but His limits cannot be found.

    At many places it is also mentioned that He cannot be seen and understood and no one can describe HIM as it cannot be done thus even Granth sahib cannot also explain all the qualities og God.It has been admitted at many places.

    I think the present discussion revolves round as to what is God and where is god.Let is see what Geeta has to state about this. I could not find much difference in this and what we follow.


    [Commentary On Geeta]
    1.1 Where is God?

    God really is all pervasive. Space and Time are in Him. Yet His presence can be felt in the very pure heart of man.


    fitj tje @jhnjmjhxyjhtjN gju*yjhd]gju*yjtjrN mjyjh ivjmj|wyjEtjdwjeQjeqj yjTjecCisj tjTjh ku= ..18>63..

    "The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine"

    1.
    Do not remember the Lord as merely a personified power as Siva in Kailas, as Vishnu in Vaikunta, as the Father in Heaven, etc. but recognize Him as one who dwells in the heart of everyone.

    Just as the address of a person is given in order that the seeker of that person may locate the individual in a busy town, so also, in order to seek, discover, and identify with the Lord, His `local address' is being provided here by Bhagavan Krishna.

    2.
    While saying that 'the Lord dwells in the heart of all living beings', the physical heart is not meant here. In philosophy, the word 'heart' is more figurative than literal. It is something like our saying that this individual has a 'large heart', or a 'good heart'. Here we only mean that the individual in question is a man of love and all humane qualities.


    Residing thus in the heart-meaning, in the mental bosom of one who has cultivated the divine qualities of a cultured human being, such as, love, kindness, patience, cheer, affection, tenderness, forgiveness, charity, etc. the Lord lends His power for all the living creatures to act on: He energizes everyone. Everything revolves around Him like the unseen puppets which have no existence, no vitality, no emotion of their own; they are mere expressions of the will and the intention of the unseen hand behind them.

    sjvj[syj cjhHN ›id sjiœivjQZo
    mj$j: smj|itj@jh[njmjpjoHnjN cj vjedEwcj sjvjE[rHmjevj vje–o vjedhntjk|”edivjdevj cjhHmj] ..15>15..

    "And I am seated in the hearts of all, from Me are memory, knowledge, as well as their absence. I am verily that which has to be known in all the VEDAS; I am indeed the author of VEDANTA, and, the "knower of the VEDAS" am I."

    He lives in the Hearts of all living creatures. Here the HEART does not mean the physiological heart but it is the metaphysical HEART . The term HEART, in philosophy, means, "mind which has been trained to entertain constantly the positive qualities of love, tolerance, mercy, charity, kindness, and the like". The Infinite

    'DWELLS IN THE HEART' means, though He is present everywhere, the Lord is most conspicuously self evident, during meditation, in the HEART of the meditator. ||1.1||



    Note: I have not deleted the sanskrit sholkas.If It is feasible I shall try to put them in Sanskrit as some of us would be interested in this as well.

    Wjkk WjkF
     
    #91 Sikh80, Jul 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  12. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    Sikh80

    You may consider yourself a Hindu. That is your prerogative. I don't. I think the majority of Sikhs don't either. I doubt that will change. Unless we are all wrong........



    Faith and identity have to be deeply felt and not mechanically laid out like this.

    Lets agree to disagree.
     
  13. OP
    Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    dalsingh ji

    Yes, you should not participate if you are unwilling. When the things are likely to become unpleasant it is better for one to leave the discussion.

    I also have no intention of making one see things who is not willing to listen to other and is harping on a single tune.

    I am reminded of one line and even do not know the source:

    Ekas ke hum barik.....


    Wjkk Wjkf
     
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    From a forum "mod" perspective - disagreement is good for a thread unless it is disrespectful and insulting to participants. Why should someone back out because of disagreement or discomfort? Why should someone back out because they feel uncomfortable?

    Total agreement = Hmm, Hmm, Hmm - Oh yes you are right, you are right. Let me repeat what you said. We should just repeat the same idea 20 different times. How boring is that? :rolleyes: How does anyone see anything from another point of view or learn that there is another point of view without respecting the fact that there are different points of view? So dalsingh ji -- keep the discussion going and keep your point of view alive!!!!! :happy:


    And Sikh80 ji, keep addressing your core questions so that others can sharpen their understanding !!!!!:happy:

    Differences,
    not similarities, teach us who we are at a deeper level in every debate.
     
  15. OP
    Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    :u):They say:Two Jokers do not make the Circus.:cool:

    Cheers!!



     
    #95 Sikh80, Jul 24, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2008
  16. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    Personally speaking, someone coming on a Sikh site to basically promote the idea that there is no Sikhism says it all. What more can I say to that? I think it speaks for itself.

    The two positions are that Sikhism is an independent religion and the other is that it is tied up in the tentacles of the term Hinduism. I know where I stand on this.

    I don't really appreciate this ongoing attempt to absorb Sikhism into Hinduism. I know majority influence can be strong and that the media/academic pressure is strong in India to make Sikhs think they are some form of Hinduism, so I am not surprised that people like Sikh80 are produced in this environment. If anything, it just adds to the case for Khalistan.
     
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Dalsingh ji

    You do not appreciate it, and I strenuously disagree with it. But can we agree to the right of another to state his views?
     
  18. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    No two jokers do not make a circus. :rolleyes: But in a hand of poker, one joker can take everyone else to the poorhouse if jokers are wild. :}8-: What are you saying? :confused: That only one point of view is permitted per thread? :advocate: Or that only one joker is permitted dominate the discussion? :inca: Or something else? :whisling:
     
  19. OP
    Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    One of the line Of Hindu Aarti is:

    Maat Pita Tume Mere
    Swami!!
    Saran Paroon mein Kiske!!

    Jo Dhyavay Phal Pavay.....


    I give below the same in Full so that English speaking audience can refer to:

    Oh Lord of the whole Universe
    Mighty Lord of the whole Universe
    All Thy devotees' agonies
    All Thy devotees' sorrows
    Instantly Thou banisheth
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    He who's immersed in devotion
    He reaps the fruits of Thy love
    Lord, he reaps the fruits of Thy love
    Floating in a cloud of comforts
    Floating in a cloud of comforts
    Free from all the worldly problems
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    Thou art Mother and Father
    At Thy feet I seek eternal truth
    Lord, at Thy feet I seek eternal truth
    There's none other than Thee, Lord
    There's none other than Thee, Lord
    Guardian of all our hopes
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    Thou art Godly perfection
    Omnipotent Master of all
    Lord, omnipotent Master of all
    My destiny's in Thy Hand
    My destiny's in Thy Hand
    Supreme Soul of all Creation
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    Thou art an ocean of mercy
    Gracious protector of all
    Lord, gracious protector of all
    I'm Thy humble devotee
    I'm Thy humble devotee
    Grant me Thy divine grace
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    Thou art beyond all perception
    Formless and yet multiform
    Lord, formless and yet multiform
    Grant me a glimpse of Thyself
    Grant me a glimpse of Thyself
    Guide me along the path to Thee
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    Friend of the helpless and feeble
    Benevolent saviour of all
    Lord, benevolent saviour of all
    Offer me Thy hand of compassion
    Offer me Thy hand of compassion
    I seek refuge at Thy feet
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    Surmounting the earthly desires
    Free from the sins of this life
    Lord, free from the sins of this life
    Undivided faith and devotion
    Undivided faith and devotion
    In eternal service unto Thee
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe

    Oh Lord of the whole Universe
    Mighty Lord of the whole Universe
    All Thy devotees' agonies
    All Thy devotees' sorrows
    Instantly Thou banisheth
    Oh Lord of the whole Universe



    Let us some panktis Of bani.



    • You are our Lord and Master; to You, I offer this prayer.
    • This body and soul are all Your property.
    • You are our mother and father; we are Your children.
    • In Your Grace, there are so many joys!
    • No one knows Your limits.
    • O Highest of the High, Most Generous God,
    • the whole creation is strung on Your thread.
    • That which has come from You is under Your Command.
    • You alone know Your state and extent.
    • Nanak, Your slave, is forever a sacrifice. ||8||4||



     
    #99 Sikh80, Jul 24, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2008
  20. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    But the question is not what has become the modern practice and understanding of Sikhism, but what are it's teachings? A Russian orthodox Christian and a Southern Baptist Christian have radically different practices, yet philosophically share more than 75-80% of interpretation of spiritual philosophy.

    Modern Sikhism tolerates no idols, no arti. Yet, it cannot be denied that historically idols were kept and arti performed in Gurdwara. So the question becomes, what was the original practice? The Tat Khalsa say Sikhi was Hinduized to weaken it from a purataan original form. The sanatan Sikhs say Sikhi has always been like this with traceable historical references, and the British influenced Tat Khalsa tried to establish an independant identity rejecting anything in practice, interpretation or belief which had any sanatan connotations, and even going to extreme of either ignoring certain pauris or deliberately mis-defining Hinduism to exaggerate differences. But the truth is, forgetting all forms of hostility and personal prejudice, or any modern form of practice or artificial distortions of actual Hindu teaching, it comes down to what is the spiritual and philosophical teaching of Gurbani and how close or far is it from original Hindu scriptures. No matter what anyone wants to believe, the answer is, not far at all.
     
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