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Sikhism : An Offshoot Of Hinduism

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Sikh80, Jul 18, 2008.

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  1. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    Harjas

    You never addressed my point about historical, sociological factors influencing Sikhi. Are you suggesting that this "sanatan dharm" is able to transcend such influences?

    Also what about the very decisions made by the Gurus and later by Singhs in influential positions, these too influenced the practice and development of Sikhi.

    Many of these were not rooted in any "sanatan dharam" but in the context of the situation Sikhs found themselves in. It is simplistic to think that Sikhism is a resurrection of an ancient Indian belief system. Sikhism was more a product of its time than any such ancient system, even if parallels can be seen between the two.

    Another fact you need to consider is that by the mid 1700s the majority of Sikhs were simple rustics, who would not have an indepth understanding of theology. These were essentially warriors and although there were some that did explore the religious texts in depth, the majority would have been reciting by rote.

    Also how would you explain Sikhisms political dimensions according to your theory. Since the inception of the Khalsa, this has been a major element of the Sikh nation. How would you explain this?

    Keep your response short and sweet!
     
  2. OP
    Sikh80

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    Respected dalsingh ji,

    You may carry on with that you are doing but kindly try to answer some of the points raised in various posts.


    so jwgY ijsu siqguru imlY ]
    (1128-5, BYrau, mÚ 3)
    One who has met the True Guru, remains awake and aware.
    pMc dUq Ehu vsgiq krY ]2] (1128-6, BYrau, mÚ 3)
    Such a person overpowers the five thieves. ||2||


    Who is satguru here?????


    '
    Regards
     
  3. dalsingh

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    If the Guru's are referring to their own satguru then we are talking about akal purakh, waheguru. What are you trying to get at?

    I take it you believe you are a "pugh wahla Hindu"?

    Let me ask you. Does the milieu or context within which Sikhi developed have more or less influence on Sikhi than "sanatan" upanishad philosophy?

    Also do you think Sikhs are a quom?
     
  4. dalsingh

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    Also to add to this interesting debate: I enjoy reading Bhai Gurdas's vaars because they are closer to the Panjabi I know. I think the following is related to the wider discussion we are having.

    This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1

    BeI iglwin jgq ivic cwir vrn AwsRm auypwey]
    ds nwim sMinAwsIAW jogI bwrh pMiQ clwey]
    jMgm Aqy sryvVy dgy idgMbr vwid krwey]
    bRhmix bhu prkwir kir swsiqR vyd purwix lVwey]
    Kit drsn bhU vYir kir nwil CqIis pKMf rlwey]
    qMq mMq rwswiexw krwmwiq kwliK lptwey]
    iekis qy bhu rUp kir rUp kurUpI Gxy idKwey]
    kiljuig AMdir Brim Bulwey ]19]

    bhee gilaan jagath vich chaar varan aasram ouaepaaeae||
    dhas naam sa(n)niaaseeaaa(n) jogee baareh pa(n)thh chalaaeae||
    ja(n)gam athae saraevarrae dhagae dhiga(n)bar vaadh karaaeae||
    brehaman bahu parakaar kar saasathr vaedh puraan larraaeae||
    khatt dharasan behoo vair kar naal shhathees pakha(n)dd ralaaeae||
    tha(n)th ma(n)th raasaaeinaa karaamaath kaalakh lapattaaeae||
    eikas thae bahu roop kar roop kuroopee ghanae dhikhaaeae||
    kalijug a(n)dhar bharam bhulaaeae ||19||

    In view of the prevailing lassitude in the world, four varnas and four Ashrams were established.
    Then ten orders of ascetics and twelve orders of Yogis came into being.
    Further jangams, the wanderers, sramans and digambrs, naked jain ascetics also started their disputations.
    Many Categories of Brahmins came into being who propounded Shastras, Vedas and Purans contradicting one another.
    The mutual incompatibility of the six Indian philosophies further added many hypocrisies.
    Alchemy, tantra, mantra and miracles became everything for people.
    By getting divided into myriad sects (and castes) they produced a horrible look.
    They all were deluded by Kalyug.(19)
     
  5. OP
    Sikh80

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    Thanks for your answer.

    If our Gurus are talking of God[Akaal], the five demons should have been controlled prior to meeting or realizing HIM. The pre-merger state requires the controlling of senses and organs. I presume that in post-merger state one is not to make an effort for the control of the senses.

    I am only trying to understand the meaning of the Terms like Gurus/Satgurus as it is a grey area for me and I am seeking guidance only. Kindly do not get irritated by the crude questions that I shall be putting across.These are the doubts of many. There are many terms in Granth like guru/satguru/tru guru/perfect gur. Above all bani is Gur. Sabad is also Guru.One ,sometimes. get lost in arriving at the correct meaning and hence the question.
    Above all entire bani is Guru and Nirankaar.How to interpret bani is Nirankaar is another issue.

    Let me ask you. Does the milieu or context within which Sikhi developed have more or less influence on Sikhi than "sanatan" upanishad philosophy?

    Also do you think Sikhs are a quom?



    Sikhi came into being on account of the then prevailing social, cultural and religious practices and Our Gurus tried to modified or simplified it. However, in order that the sikh philosophy speaks well with the people of that time one could not bring in complete divorce from the then existing/prevalent philosophies and practices.Sikhi was not sprouted in a day.It took ten Great saintly life spans for the development. The context was the reason and the adoption of some philosophies was the need of time. This is perfectly acceptable. One cannot bring in revolutions on account of the risk of its non-acceptance by the masses. The development of sikhi cannot and could not be conceived without taking the essentials of Vedantic philosophies. It is natural.

    We have karma, God and attributes,re-incaranation, Four Yugas and even 84 lakjhs junis from the Vedas and Upnishdas . It is my way of thinking and that may be erroneous.We understand the things in our own ways. You have your ways of thinking about the origin.That is fine and with me and the way I think should also be fine with you.

    The science of soul, the properties and attributes and even the location of God in each one of us were the established concepts. The super consciousness[Akaal] and the individual consciousness [jiva/soul] are also the concepts taken from the Upnishdas and vedas.the tri Gunas-tri badhs, the meaning of which is not very clear to me, is also the established philosophy of that time.

    It is the way I think. Sanatan is not that has been discarded.It is like saibhung/self existent Lord. One should not be taken away or swayed by the words.


    Regarding the Qua m part, it is the thinking of the tenth master. It is all that I think.
    I take it you believe you are a "pugh wahla Hindu"?
    I do not respond to personal scaths but one is free to indulge in it if one finds it ok.

    What do you think about the concepts of Vedas in relation to sikhism. ?

    Sabad [quoted by you] /Vaaran [Gurudas ji]has their place but are only subjugatory and not even complimentary to the Granth. One may refer as an aid to understanding the philosophy.But I would prefer the source Document and not the extrinsic aids that you have quoted.

    Regards as usual.
     
  6. Canuck Singh

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    Dalsingh Ji,

    Can you explain to me what the debate is?
     
  7. OP
    Sikh80

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    Kindly refer post-link 62 as above.
     
  8. dalsingh

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    From what I gather, some people feel Sikhism is a revertion or return to older "Hindu" beliefs as outlined in older pre-Mannu Hindu literature. Essentially it is the argument of a sanatan interpretation of Sikhi (which ties it to ancient Indian folklore and religious scriptures) to the approach followed by Singh Sabhas which involved a contextualised and, dare I say it, a more western methodology influenced interpretation of Sikhism and Sikh history. Unless I'm getting the wrong end of the stick.

    It's probably a good idea to give my own personal position on the matter now:

    I understand that some Sikhs in the past may have tied their beliefs to that which existed before i.e. a sanatan interpretation. I would never dispute that. Whether this is what the Guru's actually intended is another matter, and a question I cannot answer at this stage. What I can say is that definitely, in the time of the Guru's, active and clear steps were taken to demarcate a separate identity for Sikhs. I guess the question I am facing is "just how far did they go to demarcate these boundaries."


    In the end, I will always have a leaning towards logic and rationality (qrk) and I make no attempts to conceal this. But I must qualify this statement by explaining that I also believe that logic alone cannot explain the religious experience but this is no excuse to run amok into purposeless mysticism. This, I believe, is behind all manner of evils that pervade the earth.

    Let the debate continue. I will answer some points covered by others later as I have a few things to do right now.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Dalsingh ji,

    Some people may be saying that but some people are not. The term Hindu was and continues to be a political and geographic label. Not a religious designation.

    Meaning of HINDU &; HINDUSTAN
    .
    Nowadays everybody has started defining the words HINDU and HINDUSTAN in his or
    her own way. But the exact definition is the one which our Rishis gave several
    thousand years ago in Vishnu Purana, Padmapurana and Bruhaspati Samhita.
    .
    "Aaasindo Sindhu Paryantham Yasyabharatha Bhoomikah
    . MathruBhuh Pithrubhoochaiva sah Vai Hindurithismrithaah"
    .
    Whoever considers the Bharatha Bhoomi between Sapta Sindu and the Indian Ocean,
    as his or her motherland and fatherland is known as Hindu. (Sapta sindhu muthal
    Sindhu maha samudhram vareyulla Bharatha bhoomi aarkkellamaano Mathru bhoomiyum
    Pithru bhoomiyumayittullathu , avaraanu hindukkalaayi ariyappedunnathu.)
    .
    "Himalayam Samaarafya Yaavat Hindu Sarovaram
    .Tham Devanirmmitham desham Hindustanam Prachakshathe."
    .
    The region between the Himalayas and the Indian Ocean is called Hindustan.
    (Himalyam muthal Indian maha samudhram vareyulla devanirmmithamaya deshaththe
    Hindustanam ennu parayunnu)
    .
    Thus all Indians are Hindus regardless of their caste and religion.These.
    definitions. were. given. several. thousands. years. ago.There is no religious
    taste in these words.It is unfortunate that these words have become communal
    now.
    Word Hindu is Vedic Term - Audarya Fellowship


    As such it is fiction to think that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. Hindu was defined by geography thousands of years ago. Hindu and Hindusim are political ideas from the time of the Persian conquest to the British raj to the years of Indian liberation and unification.


    quote I understand that some Sikhs in the past may have tied their beliefs to that which existed before i.e. a sanatan interpretation. I would never dispute that. Whether this is what the Guru's actually intended is another matter, and a question I cannot answer at this stage. /quote

    This is how it all began, with the Rig Veda.

    "O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right path over all evils." (RV 10.133.6)

    Later in the upanishads, dharma is restated: "Verily, that which is Dharma is truth.Therefore they say of a man who speaks truth, 'He speaks the Dharma,' or of a man who speaks the Dharma, 'He speaks the Truth.'Verily, both these things are the same."(Brh. Upanishad, 1.4.14) (2)

    Then the idea of dharma evolved to mean a regularly moral principle that orders the Universe (His Hukam, as we Sikhs believe). ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਿਸ ਦੀ ਕਰੈ ਜਵਾਬਾ॥ hukamai andhar sabh ko kudharath kis dhee karai javaba|| All act as ordained by Him and no one has the power to say no to Him.

    Sikhism was and it still is belief system that shares in the dharmic philosophy. That has not gone away.

    quote What I can say is that definitely, in the time of the Guru's, active and clear steps were taken to demarcate a separate identity for Sikhs. I guess the question I am facing is "just how far did they go to demarcate these boundaries."/quote

    Yes, because the Gurus were in fact saying that Hindus as a people or a culture, meaning those who inhabited northwestern India, had taken a wrong tern spiritually, ethically and morally. Or as Guru Nanak put it in his typical way -- we are suffering from the disease of reincarnation.


    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਆਇਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਅਜਬੁ ਅਜਾਬਾ॥
    bhagath vashhal hoe aeia pathith oudhharan ajab ajaba||
    Lover of the devotees, he has come to uplift the downtrodden ones. He himself is wonderful (because in spite of his powers he is egoless).


    ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਇਕ ਵਰਨ ਹੋਇ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਹੋਇ ਤਰਾਬਾ॥
    char varan eik varan hoe sadhhasangath mil hoe tharaba||
    By His efforts all the four varnas (social castes) have become one and now the individual gets liberated in the holy congregation.


    ਚੰਦਨੁ ਵਾਸੁ ਵਣਾਸਪਤਿ ਅਵਲਿ ਦੋਮ ਨ ਸੇਮ ਖਰਾਬਾ॥
    chandhan vas vanasapath aval dhom n saem kharaba||
    Like the fragrance of sandal, He without any discrimination makes every one fragrant.


    ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਿਸ ਦੀ ਕਰੈ ਜਵਾਬਾ॥
    hukamai andhar sabh ko kudharath kis dhee karai javaba||
    All act as ordained by Him and no one has the power to say no to Him.


    ਜਾਹਰ ਪੀਰੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਬਾਬਾ ॥੪॥
    jahar peer jagath gur baba ||a||
    Such grand Guru (Nanak) is the manifest spiritual teacher of the whole world.

    Vaars Bhai Gurdas Panna 240

    Sikhism is a religion. Hinduism is not a religion, but a term of art. Sikhism cannot be an offshoot of a term of art. It is with respect to our view of how to cure the moral diseases that plague us that we are unique and distinct. It also a fiction to think that, as Sikhs, we do not share in the philosophy of the sanatana dharam. However, our historical and cultural response makes us a distinctively different religion from other religions in the sanatana dharam. All of Sikh history is testimony to that.


    .
     
  10. pk70

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    Abrahamic religions have same roots, there is not much efforts in their world to try to blend those faiths in one another; however, so called fanatic Hindus are in high gear to blend Sikhism into Hinduism by using pick and quote policy since all the religious scriptures they boast about as the original ones are also filled with so much negative( like human sacrifice etc) stories. The world has accepted Sikhism as independent religion but only they have problem deeply attached to political and religious agenda. If aad0002 Ji's post is looked at in this context, their own identity as Hinduism falls appart since some body's insult was taken as compliment and started preching Hindutava, blending Sikhism into it, is their priority. If the base is the same why Sikhism came along as very separate religion? Guru Ji themselves were aware of this, that is another reason it is recorded in Guru Granth Sahib Ji " Sikhs are neither Hindu nor Muslim" what is the problem to accept our prophets own word in this context?
     
  11. spnadmin

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    pk70

    I understand what you are saying. But is the problem fanatical Hindus or fanatical politicians? Or maybe the politicians were idealists and had good intentions, but could not see how unintended consequences of decisions that seemed logical and sound in fact diminished the integrity of a way of life and a system of belief. Everything I have discovered about the Sikh/Hindu divisions after the Liberation is about politics. And politics makes strange bedfellows.

    Another thought. When was religion, as opposed to a moral and spiritual path, ever divorced from politics, in any century, any culture, any part of the world? That is a topic for another thread, or maybe another forum. Can you take politics out of religion? Can you take religion out of politics? :confused: What is religion anyway?
     
  12. pk70

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    Can you take religion out of politics? :confused: What is religion anyway?

    NO DOUBT, IT IS FRUSTRATING Bhain Ji
     
  13. pk70

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    SIKH 80 JI
    Sikhism is a story of falling in love with the Nirgun through Guru, otherwise, Sargun Form is available at your command, appearing in good one and bad one. Gurbani is very clear; systematically it takes you from Zero. Bear with me to understand it in detail. I have to try to make you understand through ordinary examples since Gurbani quotes given numerous times before were quoted back with distortion as I feel. All quotes you are giving have nothing to do with the points you are putting before us. Either try to understand Guru Nanak from the point Zero to onward or do whatever you think is better, take no offense. No body is ignoring you.
    .
    Naam. Lets take an example of simple relationship a mother who is wife too, child calls her mother, when it calls “ Mother” an entity comes in its mind; same entity is called by her husband with a different word , lets say he calls her by’ honey” Now you have two expressions, “ Mother” as child understands her, then “honey” her husband thinks of her. Same entity but is addressed different way. Guru ji went further by calling Him with many names but first described it” tere Naam aneka roop ananta, kehan n jahee tere gun kete(Tr. you have numerous names, numerous are your forms, and your virtues are beyond description- including names and forms Asaa Mehla 1) In this Guru Vaak, His Nirgun and Sargun form is made clear. How will you remember Him now? Individually as many do in Hinduism? Or as Guru says to accept Him as one inexpressible Power due to His being infinite, and contemplate on Him. Any name represents that infinite power is known as NAAM. Just as mother is known as “mother “ to a child, and “ honey” to her husband. Also please make a note of it” here when husband calls her honey, he thinks about her not about the other honey, so understanding a word in different context is very crucial.

    Guru : As you know, Guru is described with in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Any spiritual one that can enable the soul to see His Nirgun form very much present within the body is true Guru( M-1). Being a Sikh, you should understand that our Guru is Guru Nanak and his all other sroop are his jyot. Physical they are not here but through their Shabadas, they are very much present in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Why it bothers you when Guru Word is used for Him too, ultimately all goes under His Ordinance. Why to get confused when Guru is used for the one who can show Him within. Guru Nanak solutes those ones too who can show Him , this is another reason that Bani of Bhagatas are in Guru Granth sahib Ji. There are so many names Guru ji and Bhagatas ji addressed Him with, choose one you like, that is Naam. All the attributes to His Sargun Forms make it clear, Guru ji or Bhagatas do not want to attach the seekers with one individual name as in Hinduism, Krishna or Ram, Vishnu. When Guru describes Sargun Form, he uses names of almost all visible world; why? To print it in your mind that you have to be aligned with His all Sargun Form too, it is praised as:” True”( Asa Dee Vaar) but when Guru ji wants to take you to Nirgun Form, he calls His Sargun Form “ Koor( False- Asa Dee Vaar) Why? So that you just should not get lost in it( His Sargun Form); remember, only for His Nirgun Form, Guru pines for and inspires us to pine for it. The path is prepared for Nirgun Form, sargun form is not actually issue of achievement of the enlightened one. Who worship His Sargun Form, will never be able to realize Nirgun and do progress.
    You have been quoting upnishdas, Bhagatwat Gita; where were these when masses were not even guided to worship one GOD, instead, His Sargun was worshiped and Nirgun was never given importance; that is why trade was going on” do this get this”, where was this original source for centuries? Reasons are apparent. Now some good parts of old scriptures are quoted but what about those things which are horrible in context of humanity ( Atharva Veda etc)? Why they are left out? If you remember I quoted Swami Teerath Ji, read Him, he noticed there are lot unacceptable stuff to any civilized individual in the same scriptures, as per him, many people added disgusting stories with an agenda. Still only those a few things are attractive to you, and you start saying “ Gurbani doesn’t make sense” It is apparent display of ignorance in context of Gurbani
    Be reasonable, as per Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Sikhism rejects caste system but Hinduism doesn’t. If pseudo Sikhs practice it, you should not blame it on Sikhism, Guru declared against it that is the point of discussion. There was “Sati Pratha”, Sikhs over came it first since Guru taught them against it (equality). Sikhs only read Gurbani, only pray to Akaal Purakh, if some are in multi- pleasing ( going every where), It cannot be used against Sikhism because second Mehal says” Love should be for one only” Do you You see this teaching any where in Gita or Mahabhata (there, the hero is calling himself God), Numerous deities worshiping alone separates Sikhism from Hinduism. Reverence of Guru is not like numerous Devtas in Hinduism. Gur Parmeshar eko jaan” is distorted; all stress is this that Guru Teachings were inspired by Him directly. Amrit ceremony is also a basic and unique, that ceremony doesn’t even exist in Hinduism. For God’s sake, Sikhs were renamed, won’t you figure out why? Every week or day has good or bad omen as per Hinduism, Gurbani says only idiot fall for it, so one should do all efforts to be imbued with Him. There are many points. I wrote you before, you even didn’t care, you came up with lame answers mixed with questions that stagnated our debate.
    Now let’s start from the Zero. As you know, Guru Granth Sahib Starts with a small but very informatory explanation about the Creator, His Nirgun Form, expressed in Moolmantra, If you read Guru Granth Sahib ji, it is repeated all over, its repetition has a significance. It is a reminder to bear in mind, while studying any Guru Shabad or Vaak . All shabad must be understood in that context of this definition; when Sargun form is praised\, this definition should be remembered too so that mind should not fall for Sargun form only as Hindus did. In Sargun Form every thing is covered including known spiritual entities. Systematically Gurbani negates their importance before the CREATOR. Guru ji after defining Him, proceeds with all techniques, how to be heard by Him?( Fer ke aggai rakheeai.. japji )Where is it written in so simple words in other scriptures you boast about.? Guru defines his language too” (bhakhia bhaao Apaar= Language of the Infinite is Love)); then His Ordinance, conflict of ego, list of beggars (whom some worship) at His door, then, process through different realms.. End with warning” only those obtain Him who are get imbued with Him( Japji), whole Japji is interpreted in extension through Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Taking from Zero( means being ignorant of HIM), going through all possible questions with relevant answers, Guru puts you on a different path which was never before our ancestors saw it.
    Let me say here one thing more, surrendering before Guru is vital in pursuit of spirituality. If you have doubts, how even you can obey Guru? Path is already tough. I read what you quoted from Bhagwat Gita, upnishdas, Vedas, nothing attracted me, why? I have unshakable faith in Guru, I do not pick and choose from Vedas or Gita. Either take whole or just forget about them as a Sikh. If they are taken as a whole, lot of stuff wouldn’t be easy to swallow. I am happy with Guru Granth Sahib Ji and I take its whole message, a message of love for Him and His creation, I do not need to feel small to read how God Rama beheads a simple man trying to do Bhagati. For me, path is clear, all the wisdom of the world, I do not need. If that wisdom fascinates to some, so it be. I do not ever criticize my dear friend who every day worships Murti of a stone, it is his faith ( I respect that) but I do not need his scriptures to guide me. If there are questions you want to understand in a better way; I will be there for you always in that context as per my limitations. When Guru says, he experienced Him, what question is left for a follower? For people of other faiths, Guru ji’s declaration is insignificant, so it be, I don’t care what their faiths say because Guru took me where I am today, if I am not perfect, I am far better than I was ten years ago. Ball is in your court, play as you want but don’t mix up things by putting distorted translation, you know Punjabi, Dr. Sahib Singh Ji did pretty good job, why don’t you read that for further clarification?
    All other stuff posted on internet to blend Sikhism into Hinduism, is not powerful enough to put any doubt in real Sikh’s deep faith in Guru Nanak, By the way, Sikhs’ Guru is Guru Nanak; Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a mirror through which you can feel Him right there.
    I don’t believe all entities worshiped in Hindu religion, are any where in Gurbani considered to be able to lead a Sikh as you falsely claim; please reread it, references have special purpose..” Gur issar Gur Gorakh Barma, Gur parbati maee” are attributes to Guru not to them because those were worshiped and Guru ji wants his follower to worship Him only through Guru. You use them in totally wrong context. I am fully aware that you are more capable than me to trace a lot of information on internet, why do you fail to do so? Without consulting any one you just declared” Gurbani calls those entities Guru”? So please take a little effort, compare translations, contemplate on Shabad, meaning will be different for sure because message in SGGS Ji is one, its all about His supremacy and to be in love with none but HIM.
     
  14. dalsingh

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    I agree with much of this but also consider the point that sometimes people are at such pains to point out similarities that they become blind to significant and often radical differences. Often I consider Sikhism as a seed which is yet to blossom. Let us say warriors of the 18th century protected the seed when it was young an most vulnerable. In this age it will be properly unpacked for the masses. Ultimately, Sikhism and Vedantic practice have separate destinies, whatever they may have in common.

    This was no personal attack but a genuine question I asked to try and understand where you are coming from. May I ask again? Do you consider yourself to be Hindu?


    The vaars have been described as the kunji (or key) for SGGSJ. I believe the contents have been approved by Guru Arjan Dev ji.
     
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    The vaars of Bhai Gurdas ji? Yes they are considered a key to the Bani of the Gurus. Bhai Gurdas' own life spanned that of 5 Gurus, and it was Guru Hargobind who officiated at his funeral.

    Guru Arjan Dev entrusted to Bhai Gurdas the task of compiling the first granth, and supervising the transcription of the shabads and hymns of the Gurus, sants, and bhagats because of his understanding and scholarship. And Bhai Gurdas is considered the first scholar of Sikhism and its scriptures.

    Sorry for telling his story, to those who already know it. But his expertise is definitive.
     
    #75 spnadmin, Jul 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2008
  16. OP
    Sikh80

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    Pk70 ji,

    I have gone through your post as above.I shall take some time in responding to you as there is lot of mix up caused by some lines.However, few doubts that have cropped up are stated as follows for a yes/No kind of reply.[Pl. forgive me if I sound rude]


    1.Is Guru Nanak[ and the rest of the Gurus as the spirit was common.] proclaiming Himself to be the Creator as per Granth or is there any margin of the things being otherwise.?

    2. Is 'waheguru' the 'Naam' for sikhs?

    I do have many doubts Now.
    Thanks for your offer for clarifying them when need so arises.



    aad ji,

    Yes, You are right .

    Vaaran are the keys to Granth sahib. May be these are not referred to as these are not available on internet.Hence I do not read as i cannot read them and have no intention of adding them to library right now.

    Thanks for reminding me.

    Would you kindly paste the name of the site from where I can download the vaaran as has been given by Dalsingh.?


    Dalsingh ji,

    I am a sikh in a very limited way. I was born in a sikh family.I am Not Amritdhari and shall have no intentions of becoming the same as I shall be bound with some sort of discipline and I think I am not ready for .

    I am not averse to enjoy Hindu Aarti when it is relayed on TV. I like Bhajans and Aarti and have wider CD collection than Bani. I like the bells of the temples. I have many friends who are Hindus as they are very polite and they have their style of living that is fine with me. I also like the way Christian gathers on Sundays and the way they enjoy their festivals and I like the Muslims though I do not understand much as to why they behave in the manner they behave. I also like to read your posts and the posts of some other members. I like the way the christian Nuns serve the patients in missionary Hospitals and I like the way Puran singh ji served the humanity.

    This is a long introduction to the one whom you are talking to but looking at the previous posts I felt that it was necessary. You may call me a Hindu.It is o.k as well. Hindus are also His creation.

    I am a very simple and straight forward person and generally tend to avoid arguments over the issue of God and faith and also believe that one has a right to clarifications which my fellow brothern should not be shy of offering if they have the answer. I can only make a request and ,that also repeated, I cannot go beyond this as the choice is always with the respondent and not the petitioner.In any case we all learn with time and self study.I do appreciate the help provided by you in the manner that you deemed fit. I have no regrets whatsoever.i shall learn when He blesses me with guidance,. Insha allah !

    Regarding Vaaran, Yes, It may be a key. But one tries to understand the text book first failing which recourse to keys may be taken. In any case, the key is not line wise. If Vaaran are approved so is bani that is stated to be Nirankarified by the same guru who compiled the Granth.

    With Best Ragards!

     
    #76 Sikh80, Jul 22, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2008
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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  18. OP
    Sikh80

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    aadji,

    Thanks and regards as usual that you are rever'nly worthy of.
    May you be blessed with His grace.
     
  19. pk70

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    1.Is Guru Nanak[ and the rest of the Gurus as the spirit was common.] proclaiming Himself to be the Creator as per Granth or is there any margin of the things being otherwise.? (quote sikh80)

    Sikh80 Ji, You have read yourself numerous times, Guru Nanak Ji, compared to HIM, expresses about himself,, in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, a very lowest one breathing on His command" if some while floating on words declare Him God, no one with rational thinking should even think Guru Nanak said this ever. So my answer Is" NO, NEVER"

    2. Is 'waheguru' the 'Naam' for sikhs?
    As per Tere Naam aneka", Sikhs are freed to call HIM with any name they wish with one thing in mind" He has never been manifestation in single individual, Whaguru is His one name but unlike Muslim" they are not stuck to this name only. Like Akaalpurakh, Rabh Ji, Parmatma, Ishavar' are also very common Names Sikhs use to address HIM but these names have nothing to do with historical personalities because they came and went, the real owner of these names is AJOONI and is forever.
    I wont be able to participate actively for 10 days, if I miss some thing please do not think I ignore any body, its just schedule. Thanks for asking.

     
  20. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    I'm sorry my time is extremely busy and I don't always have a chance to write. I addressed several key elements which have nothing to do with the politics and everything to do with the basic theory, definitions, and philosophical structure of Sikh religion from Gurbani and how it directly correlates, almost word for word with Vaishnava Vedanta as well as influence of Shaivite Nath yoga. This isn't an incidental finding. Anyone can choose to ignore, or make a dramatic argument against, but the findings are like archeological bones. No one can make the bones disappear. They have to be accounted for in any realistic and honest inquiry, which is NOT biased by preferred interpretations.

    The kind of comparisons between Judaism, which believes in One God to Christianity, which is loosely based on a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus, who was elevated in Greek scriptures (New Testament) to God Himself in human form has no doctrinal relationship. Christianity DID originate from Judaism, and it remains a completely unrelated teaching due to inclusion of Greek and Romanized philosophy and teaching. Islam is also derivative of both these two religions, yet completely different as it incorporates elements of Gnostic Christianity and Arabic beliefs. No one argues how they are related. No one can deny how they are different. But Sikhism has the same exact teaching and philosophy of Vaishnava Upanishads. It's not even a different teaching. What is different are the politicized superficial distortions to make it seem brahminism, caste, worship of demi-gods is the only Hindu philosophy. And this was no doubt done to exagerrate definitions which would stretch Sikhism into a new category. Unfortunately, anyone bothering to actually read Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas can't ignore the incredible similarity with Gurbani teaching.

    The greatest example of politicized distortion is using Gurbani translation, I am not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu, when the British word "Hindu" didn't even exist the way it does today when it was written in Gurbani. In so many places in Gurbani a tuuk will say God has this form, blue, 4 arms, long hair... and then seem to contradict, "God has no form." So this shows a philosophy of God being everything and nothing, sargun and nirgun. Guruji writes Naam of God is Allah, Naam of God is Raam, and then says I am neither the people of this area who pray 5 times a day, I am neither the people from this other area who practice pujas, not implying negation, but implying transcendance. Guruji is saying He is not among the people who practice outward forms of religion, but loves all the people who follow the Supreme truth, the union of sargun and nirgun, which is the actual message of mukti in Upanishads. It isn't something belonging to some new category of religion, as if only Sikhs can have mukti. And this is the meaning of including bhagat ban as element of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They weren't Guru's Sikhs as being formally in Sikh religion. But they were holy God-realized Vaishnava and Sufi bhagats who practiced Naam jaap, either of Allah or of Raam. So this universal message is actually sanatan, and tolerant, like the success of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's kingdom with harmonized Hindu, Sikh and Muslim elements. It bears no resemblance to ethnocentrism of modern Sikh politicized religion which actually shows a sneering disregard and disrespect for Hindu religion and identity, despite denials and professing "no hard feelings." Modern Sikhs are highly offended at being compared to Hindus, because they have been taught for last hundred years to look down on them. These attitudes come from British promotion of the "martial Aryan race and modern non-superstitious nearly Christian Sikh religion." There is woundedness at losing sovereignty of Sikh kingdom, but agitation between Hindu's, Sikhs and Muslims as separate communities has caused nothing but grief. There is nothing spiritual in artificial divisions which are really power struggles and in denial of commonality of authentic spiritual teaching. This is not Sikh identity. It is no building block of independant Sikh "nationhood." It is manipulation and corrupted politics. Why is it Hindu Rajasthanis who have equal martial history and identity as kings and rulers don't have this painful competition and agitation with rest of Hindu population? Because they don't deny kinship. So what exactly is gained by denying kinship? Has independant "Sikh nationhood" been blessed with success? If the God wanted it to succeed, nothing on earth could stop it. Yet, Khalistan was a horrible, ****** disaster. Not only because of corrupt politics of Indian government, but also because of corrupt methods of Khalistanis. To be honest, it is the kind of disaster that made Rwandan massacre happen. This kind of revolutionary rebellion and self-segregation is recipe for future genocidal disasters. Khalsa Raj won't come like this. Khalsa Raj isn't about one group of people dominating others. It will be truly wise and spiritual kings who treat EVERYONE as their own, feed and protect ALL equally. The modern Sikh identity of independant nationhood will prevent Khalsa Raj from ever appearing, because it is at heart a self-serving community after "rights" and political competition, and not a sevadar of the world community. No one will want them as kings with the sense of inflated separatism. So this is completly the wrong philosophy and wrong approach. It is doomed to failure. The only thing that can succeed is unity, commonality, accepting the non-Sikh as part of one's own family.

    So when asking if Upanishads have more influence that historical or sociological factors, I would like to rephrase the question with another question:

    "If the entire philosophy of Gurbani completely accords with Sruti, the Vedantic word for authority of Vedas, meaning: nothing in Gurbani contradicts or teaches anything new, which is not accepted or reconciled in Puranas, THEN my position is, we are no longer even talking about "influence." If this can be proved, we are talking about a direct teaching. And in this respect, Sikh80's point: "Is Hinduism the mother of Sikhism" must seriously be considered. Because within a certain accepted sect of Hinduism, Vaishnava Vedanta, the very outline of Gurbani originates. If Gurbani teaches word for word definitions, names the same exceptions and clarifications, uses the same Sanskrit terms and teachings, and independantly never teaches anything new, how can Sikhism be considfered "different?" It just becomes another form of the same teaching. And this can be established, not only by analysis, but even through historical references and earliest primary definitions of Sikhism within oldest Jathas as "sanatan."

    What appears to be fairly recent, within the last 100 or so years is the Westernized Singh Sabha reform movement which sought deliberate distance from Hinduism and the modern structures of SGPC, Rehit Maryada, and even Akal Takht, the removal of sanatan Nihang Jatha from authority as a Takht and the elevation of Damdami Taksal as a Takht which had not formerly been. So if someone is going to be honest about the modern version of Sikhism as it is followed today, compared to what is recorded historically, there is obvious manipulation and distortion involved. Now that may not concern the average person, who accepts what he is told and doesn't question too deeply. But anyone doing any kind of depth analysis is going to have to admit, that historical and sociological factors are not on the side of Singh Sabha.

    I will make an inference, that by alluding to "historical and sociological" factors one means that Guruji "intended" to create a separate religion. Looking at the kes, and the bana, and things like emphasis on One God, WHILE accepting the deliberate distortions of the "extremely well-qualified" Singh Sabha reformers that Hindu's never keep kes, and worship 330 million gods and idols, then superficially, it does appear different.

    But let's look deeper.

    In every Sikh Jatha, the Khalsa bana is patterned after the Nihang bana. The Nihangs consider themselves sanatan. The Khalsa bana of the Nihang is also called Shiva Saroop, because incredibly close meanings with the demi-god Shiva are associated with it. This alone should give a serious student of history (without preformed opinion) some pause.

    WHY would a new religion with an entirely new and separate identity were a uniform based on Shaivite Nath symbolism? Because that alone implies, not influence, but the uniform of Shaivites. It implies direct connection. Here is an example:

    [​IMG]
    Adi chand hundreds of years old shown with Shiva image.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Traditional Nihang Khalsa bana shown in Shiv Saroop.

    [​IMG]
    1846 Akali Nihang Chief

    [​IMG]
    Shiva mixing bhang
    [​IMG]
    Nihang Singh mixing Shaheedi Degh (bhang)
    [​IMG]
    Shaivite sadhu smoking bhang with chillum pipe. Guruji was against smoking, yet a tradition of bhang use exists within the Panth in form of Sukha Shaheedi Degh.
    [​IMG]
    Nihang Singh perfoming Jhatka on goat.

    Bear in mind that Shaivite yoga included left-hand Tantric traditions that went against all conventional norms, such as intoxication with bhang, meat eating, and intimate relations, incuding marriage, which is in opposition to traditional Vaishnava monasticism of strict vegetarianism, rejection of all intoxicants, and celibacy.

    The Nihang has a jura of hair on his head as does Shiva the Mahayogi.
    The Nihand is wearing the Chand (moon) as Shiva does, moreover he is wearing the Adh Chand, which if you look closely is Shiv lingum piercing the Chand yoni.
    The Nihang is wearing a farla, piece of blue cloth coming out of the top of dumalla.
    It symbolizes the Ganges flowing out of the top of the head, as you can see on the image of Shiva, he also has the Ganges flowing off the top of the head. This is yogic symbolism relating to kundalini awakening, union of Shiva and shakti. The weapons of the NIhang also belong to Shiv symbolism as Shiv is a wrathful deity, or powerful warrior figure who destroys his enemies and conquers death.

    Consider the traditional Khalsa weapons, Chakra, swords and kirpans and spears, many shaped in swirling humps like naga serpent spirits. This is fairly common symbolism among Shaivite groups. Consider the origin of Chandigarh and the symbolism of goddess Chandi as found in Shri Dasam Granth bani, sanatan Nihang heritage, as well as assorted historical references, photos, objects such as Sikh battlestandards and the evidence begins to be overwhelming that Sikhism as re-defined by Singh Sabha is NOT the original Sikhism.

    So when asking about historical and sociological factors which differentiate Sikhs from Hindus, it seems to be a recent and contrived political identity and not the traditional sanatan identity. "Sikh" means disciple of a Guru. Nowhere does Gurbani say I have started a new religion named "Sikhs." Gurbani simply says, the Turks and the Hindus (people from the Indus Valley) are following falsely (have lost their way). Even the translations of Gurbani force a definition out of Hindu which did not exist during the time Gurbani was written. Guruji, as did all Vaishnava sects, opposed ritualized brahminism as a corruption of spirituality.

    Vaishnavism and the Shaivite Nath sects, along with the extremely influenced Sufis all share doctrinal and yogic beliefs and are referred to as the Untouchable religion, because they were part of a reform movement which said the low-caste man who japs the mantra Naam of the God is the real brahmin, not the man born into the caste who is a religious hypocrite. Since both Vaishnava and Shaivite acharas were also militarized and became Armies which fought the Moghuls as well as British, it's easy to trace a historical legacy with the Akali Nihangs. So the comparison between Hindu's and Sikhs modernly which alleges Hindu's are weak, defenseless and pacifistic, and only Sikhs are strong, heroic, warriors and defenders is another distortion and untruth. Just one noest look at Hindu demi-gods and the search for weak, pacifists ends. They are mostly ferocious warriors destroying demons. There were plenty of Sikhs who were traitors after there own gain during time of Sikh Misls. And there were plenty of Hindu sects that were fierce and war-like, most notably, the Hindu Rajasthanis who happened to have been using the surname Singh since the 8th century.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Sikh Battle Standard on display at Lichfield Cathedral (Staffordshire UK), captured by British during the Anglo-Sikh wars. Link to Sikh Standards
    [​IMG]
    Fresco depicting a scene from Markandey Puraan where Durga crushes Mahikasur (a demon), at the Guru Ram Rai Udasin Akhara at Dehradun, Uttranchal, India
    [​IMG]
    Lithograph of Second Anglo-Sikh War showing Sikh Battle Standard
    [​IMG]
    The modern Britishized Khalsa


    To rephrase the question, it is the early stages of Sikhism including up until the time of Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh which was completely sanatan in character, and these original associations and meanings being lost modernly, or deliberately suppressed and denied with flimsy arguments and distorted exaggerations which have created the impression of Sikhism as an independant new religion, when it never taught any new message which is not found in Vaishnava Upanishads, Shaivite Nath tradition or writings of Vaishnava and Nath reform groups such as Kabirpanthis and Sufis. It is not a new and unique message. It is an eternal and timeless message with direct roots in Sanatan Dharam.

    Guru is a Guru within an ancient Sanatan tradition. Guru's shishya's are not the name of a new religion, the name means disciples. And anyone with honesty will admit the Guru-shishya relationship is the cornerstone of Vedanta, also known modernly as "Hinduism." Modern Sikhism is a Western, Britishized political invention and definitions completely contradict the written Gurbani of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Shri Dasam Granth bani, Shri Sarbloh Granth bani and variety of lesser know writings such as Prem Sumerag which average Sikh has no knowledge of due to deliberate suppression by political authorities of Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha movement. Groups like Sikh Missionary Society deny very obvious teachings in Gurbani, such as narak-surag, jamdhootha, reincarnation, yugs, avtaara. They deny the obvious history of janam sakhis by denying miracles were ever associated with Guruji. In short, modern Sikh institutions have succeeded through campaign of deliberate misinformation to create a form of a new religion, but completely disconnected to the powerful symbolism and mysticism of the original.



    ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇ ਛੋਡੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਲੀਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇ ॥੩॥
    khathree braahaman pith dhae shhoddae har naamadhaeo leeaa mukh laae ||3||
    The Lord turned His back on the high-class Kh'shaatriyas and Brahmins, and showed His face to Naam Dayv. ||3||

    ਜਿਤਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਢਾਇ ॥
    jithanae bhagath har saevakaa mukh athasath theerathh thin thilak kadtaae ||
    All of the devotees and servants of the Lord have the tilak, the ceremonial mark, applied to their foreheads at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

    ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਪਰਸੇ ਜੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
    jan naanak thin ko anadhin parasae jae kirapaa karae har raae ||4||1||8||
    Servant Nanak shall touch their feet night and day, if the Lord, the King, grants His Grace. ||4
    ~SGGS Ji p. 733




    ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਕੋ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਰਿਓ ॥
    raajaa raam japath ko ko n thariou ||
    Meditating on the Sovereign Lord God, who has not been saved?

    ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਗਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਿਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    gur oupadhaes saadhh kee sangath bhagath bhagath thaa ko naam pariou ||1|| rehaao ||
    Whoever follows the Guru's Teachings and joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is called the most devoted of the devotees. ||1||Pause||

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥
    sankh chakr maalaa thilak biraajith dhaekh prathaap jam ddariou ||
    He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.

    ਨਿਰਭਉ ਭਏ ਰਾਮ ਬਲ ਗਰਜਿਤ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਸੰਤਾਪ ਹਿਰਿਓ ॥੨॥
    nirabho bheae raam bal garajith janam maran santhaap hiriou ||2||
    He becomes fearless, and the power of the Lord thunders through him; the pains of birth and death are taken away. ||2||

    ਅੰਬਰੀਕ ਕਉ ਦੀਓ ਅਭੈ ਪਦੁ ਰਾਜੁ ਭਭੀਖਨ ਅਧਿਕ ਕਰਿਓ ॥
    anbareek ko dheeou abhai padh raaj bhabheekhan adhhik kariou ||
    The Lord blessed Ambreek with fearless dignity, and elevated Bhabhikhan to become king.

    ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਦਈ ਸੁਦਾਮੈ ਧ੍ਰੂਅ ਅਟਲੁ ਅਜਹੂ ਨ ਟਰਿਓ ॥੩॥
    no nidhh thaakur dhee sudhaamai dhhrooa attal ajehoo n ttariou ||3||
    Sudama's Lord and Master blessed him with the nine treasures; he made Dhroo permanent and unmoving; as the north star, he still hasn't moved. ||3||

    ਭਗਤ ਹੇਤਿ ਮਾਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਇ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਿਓ ॥
    bhagath haeth maariou haranaakhas narasingh roop hoe dhaeh dhhariou ||
    For the sake of His devotee Prahlaad, God assumed the form of the man-lion, and killed Harnaakhash.

    ਨਾਮਾ ਕਹੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਕੇਸਵ ਅਜਹੂੰ ਬਲਿ ਕੇ ਦੁਆਰ ਖਰੋ ॥੪॥੧॥
    naamaa kehai bhagath bas kaesav ajehoon bal kae dhuaar kharo ||4||1||
    Says Naam Dayv, the beautiful-haired Lord is in the power of His devotees; He is standing at Balraja's door, even now! ||4||1||
    ~SGGS JI p. 1105





    ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
    har bhaaeiaa sathigur boliaa har miliaa purakh sujaan jeeo ||
    The Lord was pleased as the True Guru spoke; he was blended then with the all-knowing Primal Lord God.

    ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
    raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
    The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 923


    [​IMG]
    At the time of Ranjit Singh's coronation at Lahore on 11 April 1801, Baba Sahib Singh placed the tilak or mark of sovereignty on his forehead. http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/


    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
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