Sikhism : An Offshoot Of Hinduism

[lalihayer]

ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਆਤਮ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ਹੇ ॥੭॥
आतम रामु रामु है आतम हरि पाईऐ सबदि वीचारा हे ॥७॥
Āṯam rām rām hai āṯam har pā*ī*ai sabaḏ vīcẖārā hė. ||7||
The soul is the Lord, and the Lord is the soul; contemplating the Shabad, the Lord is found. ||7||

sikh80 ji,
this shabad says it all. When I post on these boards, a dilemma always takes over my mind. Am I debating to bring forth true meaning of gurbani or I am debating to satisfy my ego ? There is no doubt that sikhism is heavily influenced by hindu theology, but it would be very wrong to say that we are still hindus. If you have read gita, you must read mannu smriti too, you will know that sikhs are not hindus. I understand that lot of people who had read vedas, upnishads and other hindu shashtras say that sikhs are real hindus. That is a good compliment, but still sikhs are not hindus.
I belong to Teh Zira distt Ferozepur in Punjab. Before partition, my native tehsil many families who were muslims, they were used to go to gurudwara instead of mosque. They could not see any difference between two religions. Even some ragis in gurudwaras were muslim. Partition happened and big number of these families change their names to sikh names. There was no other change. Ali Baksh becomes Bakshish singh, Noor Mohamad becomes Harnoor singh.
Sikhism is walking thin line between indic and semitic religions. To both sides, it appears we are one of them.
Harjas ji earlier gave example how sikhs used to have all the hindu rituals. Most of earlier sikh days fighting with authorities, running from homes, hiding in jungles. Gurudwaras were in control of hindu mahants. But it had to change and it did.
rest later,
regards,

 

[Sikh80]

I fully respect your views and regard them as correct. May be the similarities in two religions are so pronounced that one gets the impression that the most of the sikh philosophical part is already contained in the earlier scriptures.

It was just a chance that I read Gita, almost simultaneously, while pursuing Bani and that I noted this and put forward the things.

As I regard your views I have nothing more to add now as I should spend more time reading Granth sahib for better appreciation of the things. There are few questions in my earlier posts that may kindly be looked into and ,if considered worthy of reply, may be replied to.

Warm Regards.

 

[lalihayer]

Sikhism is just a sect within a larger Vaishnav framework, and to smaller degree Shaivite Nath framework. It has no independant philosophy. And by framework I mean complex spiritual philosophy, not merely adoption of terms.

Harjas ji,
You are trying to convince my fellow sikh brethern here that sikhism is offshoot of vaishnav. Do you reallly understand that by saying so you are backstabing house of Satgur Nanak? Do you understand you are levelling allegations against Satgur Nanak for stealing vaishnav philosophy and not even mentioning it?
Harjas ji, if you believe for a minute in Satgur Nanak and what he is saying, do you think he would have mentioned it in his mool mantar? Or atleast in Japji? (although you have been trying in vain to prove that aum means trimurti not Lord himself). What stopped Guru Nanak from writing word 'Vishnu' in mool mantar?
I just have some idea of what vaishnav mat is about. But I have full faith in Satguru Nanak. He never gave preference to vaishnav mat in his teachings.
Sometimes people see what they want to see. You know most of the sikhs here are not familiar with vaisnav teaching, yet you come here with lot of examples from vedas, vaishnav theology and ofcourse gurbani, trying to prove that sikhism is another form of vaishnav mat.
You realize that hinduism has oral tradition of keeping their texts. How can you say that texts you have been referring not been altered to make more sense in modern times? Hinduism had no answer for Budhhism for centuries. But then with new translations from Shankarcharya, brahmins made Buddhism just another sect of hinduism and distinct features of Buddhism (ahinsa(hence vegetarianism), vipasna, idol worship) were made just some more hindu rituals.
There are many refrences to vaishnav mat in gurbani. But I must post this shabad.
panna 960

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੫ ॥
Shalok, Fifth Mehl:

ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਅੰਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਅੰਨਾ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੀ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Blind inwardly, and blind outwardly, he sings falsely, falsely.

ਦੇਹੀ ਧੋਵੈ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬਣਾਏ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਵੈ ॥
He washes his body, and draws ritual marks on it, and totally runs after wealth.

ਅੰਦਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
But the filth of his egotism is not removed from within, and over and over again, he comes and goes in reincarnation.

ਨੀਂਦ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਕਾਮਿ ਸੰਤਾਪਿਆ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
Engulfed in sleep, and tormented by frustrated sexual desire, he chants the Lord's Name with his mouth.

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਮ ਹਉ ਜੁਗਤਾ ਤੁਹ ਕੁਟੇ ਕਿਆ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
He is called a Vaishnav, but he is bound to deeds of egotism; by threshing only husks, what rewards can be obtained?

ਹੰਸਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਬੈਠਾ ਬਗੁ ਨ ਬਣਈ ਨਿਤ ਬੈਠਾ ਮਛੀ ਨੋ ਤਾਰ ਲਾਵੈ ॥
Sitting among the swans, the crane does not become one of them; sitting there, he keeps staring at the fish.

ਜਾ ਹੰਸ ਸਭਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਤਾ ਬਗਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਜੋੜੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
And when the gathering of swans looks and sees, they realize that they can never form an alliance with the crane.

ਹੰਸਾ ਹੀਰਾ ਮੋਤੀ ਚੁਗਣਾ ਬਗੁ ਡਡਾ ਭਾਲਣ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
The swans peck at the diamonds and pearls, while the crane chases after frogs.

ਉਡਰਿਆ ਵੇਚਾਰਾ ਬਗੁਲਾ ਮਤੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੰਞੁ ਲਖਾਵੈ ॥
The poor crane flies away, so that his secret will not be exposed.

ਜਿਤੁ ਕੋ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤ ਹੀ ਲਾਗਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਦੋਸੁ ਦਿਚੈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
Whatever the Lord attaches one to, to that he is attached. Who is to blame, when the Lord wills it so?

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਰਵਰੁ ਰਤਨੀ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
The True Guru is the lake, overflowing with pearls. One who meets the True Guru obtains them.

ਸਿਖ ਹੰਸ ਸਰਵਰਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਹੁਕਮਾਵੈ ॥
The Sikh-swans gather at the lake, according to the Will of the True Guru.

ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਮਾਣਕ ਸਰਵਰਿ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਖਾਇ ਖਰਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
The lake is filled with the wealth of these jewels and pearls; they are spent and consumed, but they never run out.

ਸਰਵਰ ਹੰਸੁ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਤੇ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
The swan never leaves the lake; such is the Pleasure of the Creator's Will.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਹਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
O servant Nanak, one who has such pre-ordained destiny inscribed upon his forehead - that Sikh comes to the Guru.

ਆਪਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਸਭਾ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
He saves himself, and saves all his generations as well; he emancipates the whole world. ||1||


You are trying to prove sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat. Me, an ignorant sikh, is reading literally 'vaishnav' word as mentioned above.
You are trying to prove here with examples taken from vedas and other hindu texts alongwith shabads that sikhism philosophy is borowed from vaishnav mat. Me, here is just believing what fifth master has to say about vaishnav mat.

Harjas ji, you understand gurbani is collection of shabads said by different authors with different religious backgrounds at different times in different conditions. Guru sahib were trying to say that Lord can be reached even while living in different sharias (religious rituals) if you have love of Lord. But you have taken these shabads without trying to understand context, put together to reach the conclusion that sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat.

Harjas ji, I have just one question. Do you agree that Fifth Master had better knowledge of gurubani and vaishnav mat than you and me? If yes, what do you think stopped them from beating bushes here and there instead of saying in every shabad that we are vaishnavs, bot gurmukhs? Do you have doubts about Fifth Master's intentions?
If you doubt Fifth Master's intentions, then you are not a sikh, but a vaishnav, trying to impose that sikhs are part of vaishnav mat.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Namjap Ji writes: "Harjas Ji, don't you think that certain articles by Hindu sects have misrepresented words like Kalki, etc ?"

Here's an extract from Kiara Windrider on Enlightenment, Kalki and the Golden Age Movement - I
Kalki and the Golden Age Movement

It is entirely irrelevant from a research point of view to analyze how imaginative modern movements may now lay claim to interpreting Kalki avataar. It simply has no bearing whatsoever on analyzing what mention of Kalki avataar in Gurbani could mean.

Because some modern new age group, or some completely unenlightened people from Hindu religion concoct something fanciful, how does this prove Kalki avtaara is as mythological as they say He is? See this is a perfect example of what I've been writing. To prove some political point about Sikh independant identity, people frequently resort to painting all Hindus, all forms of Hinduism, all Hindu practice in the worst possible light. Just because someone is a Hindu, just because someone is a Sikh, doesn't mean those persons are necessarily enlightened or have any particular wisdom. And the foolish notions of such people have no relevance at all to historical and scriptural definitions of the teachings of Kalki avataar.

So simply posting commentary by some modern new age Hindu movement to illustrate how mythological Kalki avtaara is does not explain why Gurbani talks about the das avtaara of Vishnu as the sargun manifestation of the One nirgun Parabrahm, nor why Gurbani mentions Guru Nanak as avtaara in this lineage, nor why Gurbani speaks of Kalki avtaara. If I want to know about Kalki avtaara I will search the original scriptures that predict him. If I want to waste a lot of time, I will read Newsweek or some New Age defintions.

Dalbirk writes: "Dear Brothers & Sisters ,
I wish to state that all thes so called Godmen / Women , Miraculous people r just mercenaries which play on the lack of real knowledge of GURBANI wherever they r whether in India or West . The people being confused & insecure themselves play in the hands of these people . These r no mre than pure COMMERCIAL ORGANISATIONS with codes of business like PURE marketing companies . The agents r used for recruiting members , paid commissions , in cash or in kind like jobs who spread the word of MAHAPURUSH JI . Infact these people if seen from nearby distance r so lowly creatures & so corrupt as to put even most hardened criminals & even Indian political leaders to shame."

As I have said a dozen times now, trying to paint Hindu religion in the worst, most corrupt possible light is the only attitude Sikh's are promoting. And it's all political. Let me be frank, Sikhs don't need deras to show corruption. Gurdwara Committees are doing well enough. In Kalyug, ALL religion is corrupted. And I oppose false deras as I oppose false politically and financially motivated Gurdwaras.

But this has nothing to do

with the question

of the origins

of Sikh philosophy

or whether

there was a philosophical,

spiritual,

and historical relationship

to Vaishnava Vedanta.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Lallihayer writes: "There is another poster 'narkalee'. He should learn from Harjas ji how to do it? narkalee just comes and spills all the hate for gurmat."

Now simply because you are opposed to my views, with what justification do you have to make the slander that I am someone like "Narkalee who spills and spews hate for Gurmat?"

You see, I am reading the Gurbani. And I am more than shocked at the Vedantic and yogic philosophy I find there. So shocked I started asking people why it was in there and what it could mean. If I was truly spilling and spewing hate of Gurmat, why would I bother to read Gurbani intently to search out what Gurmat (from Guru's mouth) really is? If I had no respect for Gurmat, wouldn't I just blindly accept the political viewpoint of people who define Sikhism as what Hinduism is not. And then define Hindu religion as something altogether horrible, atrocious, corrupted, obscene, unjust, and spiritually without a boat of mukti.

Do you people honestly believe anyone reading actual Hindu scriptures will believe the negative and extreme exaggerations which pass today for Sikh scholarship about Hinduism? All one has to do is actually READ and discover that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was right! Most Hindu's have lost the boat! But conversely, so have most Sikhs. Today, the truly spiritual man is rare and hard to find.

Do you believe for a moment the really spiritual person will define the greatness of his own faith by slinging all the mud and kalunk he can against the others? That reaction is itself the tipoff that the material being presented has a political agenda, and is not a spiritual understanding at all.

I do happen to know a very holy Singh. And one day, in the midst of all the infighting and ruin and garbage going on in a particular Jatha which can only be described as cruel and inhumane, I asked him: "Veer Ji, these people say don't talk to those people, they are under boycott. But those people are very lonely and have asked me to stay with them. Yet I hear all these terrible nindya. Is it true they are fake people, and the ones who are so cruel and vicious are the real Singhs?"

And the old Singh said to me: "Just love everybody. Just be kind to everybody. Just respect everybody. We have no right to hurt anyone or tear someone down in the eyes of the community. No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. Just love them, and maybe they will do better."


I am so sick and tired of hateful, unloving, political and aggressive communities that do nothing but tear each other to pieces. I've had it. I can no longer pretend that because these people with name of Singh, who swagger as if they are the only boat of mukti in the Kalyug and consider with arrogance and disdain EVERYBODY else, are the real deal. I had my wake-up call. And to be frank, I really do not care one bit what people think or say about me. I don't care if I'm accused of being anti-Sikh, ignorant, Hindu, and the other assorted colorful Punjabi curse words.

I
do
not care.


But I will be completely honest. I have no agenda. When I read Gurbani talking about rising of Kundalini shakti to open dasm duar, and I KNOW Sikhs don't practice it or even know what it's about, I sincerely believe Sikh religion has lost it's OWN boat of mukti. And I'm trying to retrace the historical steps to see what was lost, what was thrown away, what was misunderstood.

Because modern Sikhism today is a crying shame. If I hated Sikh religion, I wouldn't even bother. But I don't hate Sikh religion. I hate what it's pretending to be. I hate the cruelty and politics of the pretenders. I want to know what the truth is.

And the real deal, is Punjabis think they own Sikh religion. So many have never even read Gurbani, but they think these gang-land Khalistani, swaggering proud punk anti-Hindu attitudes are the true Sikh religion.

Excuse me for finding that rather shallow and searching for a more meaningful interpretation.

Call me RSS Hindutva if you want. Call me anti-Sikh if you want. I'm still so greatly relieved not to be a part of the unloving sangat anymore. So it's no loss to me what you think.

If anyone is interested, I'm studying Gurbani to the best of my ability to learn what I can about how Sikh teaching of mukti has been changed. If you don't believe that it has changed, why bother to read these posts? Do you really think some little lady with no sangat, no association, no dera and certainly no money is that big a threat to YOUR identity? If you do, the problem is not with my objections, but with your insecurity.

 

[lalihayer]

Now simply because you are opposed to my views, with what justification do you have to make the slander that I am someone like "Narkalee who spills and spews hate for Gurmat?"
Harjas ji,
you said in your post,"Sikhism is just a sect within a larger Vaishnav framework, and to smaller degree Shaivite Nath framework. It has no independant philosophy. And by framework I mean complex spiritual philosophy, not merely adoption of terms."
Wasn't narkalee trying to prove same thing, though with harsher words? I never read vaishnav mat in detail, but i read gurbani. 'Vashnav' is mentioned many times, but just as one of other religions common among people at that time.
You, here are trying to prove that sikh philosophy is copy of vashnav mat. Question is if sikhism is just a sect within vaishnav framework, why Guru Sahib kept us in dark about it? My faith is with my Satguru. If hymns collected by Fifth master contains refrence from veda, there are also refrences from kateba. Sacha sauda people are trying to prove that their guru is mentioned in gurbani. You are trying to prove that kalki is mentioned in gurbani. Another poster on this site was trying to prove with one tuk that seeing people of other sex is OK (anand karo mil sundar nari). We can't simply change the fact that Sikhism evolved in a majority hindu country. It is natural that most of bhagats would be hindus and being hindi as main language most of names of Lord would be hindu too.

You see, I am reading the Gurbani. And I am more than shocked at the Vedantic and yogic philosophy I find there. So shocked I started asking people why it was in there and what it could mean. If I was truly spilling and spewing hate of Gurmat, why would I bother to read Gurbani intently to search out what Gurmat (from Guru's mouth) really is? If I had no respect for Gurmat, wouldn't I just blindly accept the political viewpoint of people who define Sikhism as what Hinduism is not. And then define Hindu religion as something altogether horrible, atrocious, corrupted, obscene, unjust, and spiritually without a boat of mukti.

Hinduism is a beautiful and one of the most tolerant religion. I believe all the religions are true. Creator had made this world and hence all the religions. How can He do anything wrong? But if somebody is saying that my guru stole philosophy from vaishnav mat and never mentioned to his sikhs that we are same as vashnavs, it is not acceptable to me. Me too is His work. My emotions are too His work. I am helpless here.

I am so sick and tired of hateful, unloving, political and aggressive communities that do nothing but tear each other to pieces. I've had it. I can no longer pretend that because these people with name of Singh, who swagger as if they are the only boat of mukti in the Kalyug and consider with arrogance and disdain EVERYBODY else, are the real deal. I had my wake-up call. And to be frank, I really do not care one bit what people think or say about me. I don't care if I'm accused of being anti-Sikh, ignorant, Hindu, and the other assorted colorful Punjabi curse words.
You are trying to prove that gurmat is nothing but vaishnav mat and expect me to read this blasphemy against my Guru without any comment. You must have read many texts, but I have refrences from shabad guru only to believe.
Again about boat of mukti, people from every religion can get across with love for Lord and their actions, but please don't expect kalki/jesus/mahdi will take everybody across just because.

But I will be completely honest. I have no agenda. When I read Gurbani talking about rising of Kundalini shakti to open dasm duar, and I KNOW Sikhs don't practice it or even know what it's about, I sincerely believe Sikh religion has lost it's OWN boat of mukti. And I'm trying to retrace the historical steps to see what was lost, what was thrown away, what was misunderstood.
I believe you, harjas ji. But I am saddend that you reached at wrong conclusion. But I am thankful to you, as It has renewd my interest in taking a detailed look at vaishnav philosophy.


If anyone is interested, I'm studying Gurbani to the best of my ability to learn what I can about how Sikh teaching of mukti has been changed. If you don't believe that it has changed, why bother to read these posts? Do you really think some little lady with no sangat, no association, no dera and certainly no money is that big a threat to YOUR identity? If you do, the problem is not with my objections, but with your insecurity
Harjas ji, I am not feeling insecure. Just look at the bigger picture here. We are here on a sikh forum. New and old sikh memebers are browsing here looking for answers. You one of the senior forum poster comes back with announcement that he/she had just found out that sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat. Then you post lot of material from vedas and Guru Granth in attempt to prove you point. You understand well that sikhs are not very familiar with vaishnav philosophy, but we are familiar with sikh philosophy and you will be answered accordingly.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਆਤਮ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ਹੇ ॥੭॥
आतम रामु रामु है आतम हरि पाईऐ सबदि वीचारा हे ॥७॥
Āṯam rām rām hai āṯam har pā*ī*ai sabaḏ vīcẖārā hė. ||7||
The soul is the Lord, and the Lord is the soul; contemplating the Shabad, the Lord is found. ||7||

sikh80 ji,
this shabad says it all.

Veer ji Lalihayer Ji,

Can you explain to me what is shabad? Do you believe Shabad only means Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and that somehow this tuuk is telling us only by listening to Gurbani (contemplating the Shabad) is the Lord found? And do you think with that definition, that anyone who is not a Sikh, who does not contemplate the Sikh Guru Sahib cannot find the Lord? And why would you seem to think that shabad is something only found in Gurbani? See these are the kind of deliberate distortions and mistranslations arising from the Singh Sabha reform to dissociate ANY meaning in Gurbani with that found in Hindu scriptures. And then the meaning falls flat and becomes ethnocentric, all to praise a particular community, and nothing to do with praise of the God who pervades in everyone.

Naad/Nada, a Sanskrit term means "sound, vibration." It has a relationship to the subtle nadis, which are conduits of praan, life-force energy in the human chakra system. It relates to the AUM, because it is creative principle:

According to Samkhya, in Mulaprakriti or the potential condition of the Natural Principle, the Gunas are in a state of equality (Samyavastha), that is, they are not affecting one another. But, as Mulaprakriti is essentially movement, it is said that even when in this state of equality the Gunas are yet continually changing into themselves (Sarupaparinama). This inherent subtle movement is the nature of the Guna itself, and exists without effecting any objective result. Owing to the ripening of Adrishta or Karma, creation takes place by the disturbance of this equality of the Gunas (Gunakshobha), which then commence to oscillate and act upon one another. It is this initial creative motion which is known in the Tantra as Cosmic Sound (Parashabda).
Chapter Nineteen: Creation as Explained in the Non-dualist Tantras

Paranada and Parashabda are the root basis of Vedantic creation and hence transformation. The shabd emanates in sarguna from the anada, the unheared sound and vibration of the nada. According to the Shaivite Nath tradition, Kundalini is Parashabad, it is the energy that flows. If you know anything at all about shaktipat Gur-deekhya, you understand that esoteric yogic philosophy teaches the vibrational presence of the Guru gets transmitted into the energy flow of the shishya, disrupting his old patterns of thinking, bringing karams and defilements to consciousness where they can be purified. Shabda is like shaktipat energy flow from one consciousness to another. It's not just reading words.

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
mueiaa jith ghar jaaeeai thith jeevadhiaa mar maar ||
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
anehadh sabadh suhaavanae paaeeai gur veechaar ||2||
The beautiful, Unstruck Sound of the Shabad is obtained, contemplating the Guru. ||2||

ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥
anehadh baanee paaeeai theh houmai hoe binaas ||
The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated.
SGGS Ji p. 21​

What is the anehad bani? Because without it, we will not obtain the Lord and liberation.

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
gur sabadhee man mohiaa kehanaa kashhoo n jaae ||
The mind is fascinated by the Word of the Guru's Shabad, which cannot be described.

ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਚੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਰਸਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥
jihavaa rathee sabadh sachai anmrith peevai ras gun gaae ||
The tongue imbued with the True Word of the Shabad drinks in the Amrit with delight, singing His Glorious Praises.
~SGGS Ji p. 36​

What Amrit is Gurbani discussing in this tuuk?

So we see these concepts coming together: Naad, Shabd, Naam, Amrit nectar. What do they mean, and why are they in Gurbani? Can you explain veer ji?

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਬਦੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
anmrith sabadh anmrith har baanee ||
The Shabad is Amrit; the Lord's Bani is Amrit.
~SGGS Ji p. 119​

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵਰਸੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਏ ॥
anmrith varasai sehaj subhaaeae ||
The Ambrosial Nectar rains down, softly and gently.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਪਾਏ ॥
guramukh viralaa koee jan paaeae ||
How rare are those Gurmukhs who find it.
~SGGS Ji p. 119​

ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
oulattiou kamal breham beechaar ||
The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
anmrith dhhaar gagan dhas dhuaar ||
From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.​

Is this still sounding like Shabad is the same as reading Guru's bani? Or is it becoming clear that some esoteric yogic practice is being described in Gurbani? And so it was this recognition which came to me as a shock, since I had studied siddha yoga and yoga kriyas in the past, and despite firmly believing in the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha and revering a strict Tat Gurmat Singh like Bhai Sahib Bhai Randir Singh Ji, I could not shake that Gurbani was describing one of the most elusive and advanced yoga kriyas that exist, kechari mudra. And describing it in a way as to explain the meaning of Shabad, Naam, and mukti. And this is exactly what kechari mudra is, the yogic path to mukti.

ਭਾਠੀ ਗਗਨੁ ਸਿੰਙਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਚੁੰਙਿਆ ਕਨਕ ਕਲਸ ਇਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
bhaathee gagan sinn(g)iaa ar chunn(g)iaa kanak kalas eik paaeiaa ||
The Tenth Gate of my crown chakra is the distilling fire, and the channels of the Ida and Pingala are the funnels, to pour in and empty out the golden vat.

ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰਸ ਮਹਿ ਰਸਨ ਚੁਆਇਆ ॥੨॥
this mehi dhhaar chuai ath niramal ras mehi rasan chuaaeiaa ||2||
Into that vat, there trickles a gentle stream of the most sublime and pure essence of all distilled essences. ||2||

ਏਕ ਜੁ ਬਾਤ ਅਨੂਪ ਬਨੀ ਹੈ ਪਵਨ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਸਾਜਿਆ ॥
eaek j baath anoop banee hai pavan piaalaa saajiaa ||
Something wonderful has happened-the breath has become the cup.

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੩॥
theen bhavan mehi eaeko jogee kehahu kavan hai raajaa ||3||
In all the three worlds, such a Yogi is unique. What king can compare to him? ||3||

ਐਸੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੋਤਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
aisae giaan pragattiaa purakhotham kahu kabeer rang raathaa ||
This spiritual wisdom of God, the Supreme Soul, has illuminated my being. Says Kabeer, I am attuned to His Love.
~SGGS Ji p. 92
​

“Sound arises in the inner sky of pure consciousness, the heart-space in the head, the sky of the heart. What manifests is Life-Power, the One.” ~Shiva Sutra 37

ਨਿਰਮਲ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਨਿਤ ਸਾਚੇ ਕੇ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਦੁ ਵਜਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥
niramal gun gaavai nith saachae kae niramal naadh vajaavaniaa ||2||
Sing the Glorious Praises of the Immaculate True Lord forever, and the Immaculate Sound-current of the Naad shall vibrate within. ||2||

ਨਿਰਮਲ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
niramal anmrith gur thae paaeiaa ||
The Immaculate Ambrosial Nectar is obtained from the Guru.
~SGGS Ji p. 121​

“Awaken the kundalini-shakti through the breath; for when it is roused, liberation is possible.” ~Shiva Sutra 20

ਜਪਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜੀਉ ਭਾਗ ਵਡੇਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥
jap guramukh naam jeeo bhaag vaddaerae jeeo ||
As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, O very fortunate ones.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜੀਉ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥
har har naam jeeo praan har maerae jeeo ||
The Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is my soul and my breath of life.
~SGGS Ji p. 175​

No matter who objects or turns green or rolls around or calls names, NO ONE is able to remove these tuuks from Gurbani. No one can deny in any believable way that Guruji did not understand the most advanced shakti yogic practices in the world. This is the tradition of how to arouse Mata Shakti devi. And suddenly it starts to make sense, those traditions still whirling about the reputation of the Khalsa, of use of sarbloh steel because of it's shakti, or worshipping devi in the shakti. Because only in this way would the Khalsa no longer simply be brave soldiers, or committed religious believers. They would be shaktipat Masters, the most formidable siddhi yogis to confront a battlefield. The spirit of devi would literally be their weapon. And again, it fits within the schema of Dasm Granth bani and the praise of bhaugati Chandi, the Khalsa battle standards bearing devi's likeness, the painting of Guru Gobind Singh Ji prayer to sargun form of the nirgun Akal in form of devi. Because devi in the Shaivite Panth is literally the Power of God.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
gur kai bachan keeno raaj jog ||
Through the Guru's Word, I practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਲੋਗੁ ॥੫॥
gur kai sang thariaa sabh log ||5||
In the Company of the Guru, all the people of the world are saved. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 239​

ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਏ ॥
sukhamanaa eirraa pingulaa boojhai jaa aapae alakh lakhaaeae ||
He understands the Sushmana, Ida and Pingala, when the unseen Lord reveals Himself.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਹੁ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੬੦॥
naanak thihu thae oopar saachaa sathigur sabadh samaaeae ||60||
O Nanak, the True Lord is above these three energy channels. Through the Word, the Shabad of the True Guru, one merges with Him. ||60||

ਮਨ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਵਨੁ ਕਥੀਅਲੇ ਪਵਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਖਾਈ ॥
man kaa jeeo pavan kathheealae pavan kehaa ras khaaee ||
"The air is said to be the soul of the mind. But what does the air feed on?

ਗਿਆਨ ਕੀ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਕਵਨ ਅਉਧੂ ਸਿਧ ਕੀ ਕਵਨ ਕਮਾਈ ॥
giaan kee mudhraa kavan aoudhhoo sidhh kee kavan kamaaee ||
What is the way of the spiritual teacher, and the reclusive hermit? What is the occupation of the Siddha?""
~SGGS Ji p. 944​

42. When the air has ceased to move in the right and the left nostrils, and has begun to flow in the middle path, then Khechari Mudra can be accomplished there. There is no doubt of this.

43. If the Prana can be drawn into the Sunya (Susumna), which is between the Ida and the Pingala, and made motionless there, then the Khechari Mudra can truly become steady there.

44. That Mudra is called Khechari which is performed in the supportless space between the Surya and the Chandra (the Ida and the Pingala) and called the Vyoma Chakra.

45. The Khechari which causes the stream to flow from the Chandra (Soma) is the beloved of Siva. The incomparable divine Susumna should be closed by the tongue drawn back.

46. It can be closed from the front also (by stopping the movements of the Prana), and then surely it becomes the Khechari. By practice, this Khechari leads to Unmani.

47. The seat of Siva is between the eyebrows, and the mind becomes absorbed there. This condition (in which the mind is thus absorbed) is known as Turya, and death has no access there.

48. The Khechari should be practiced till there is Yoga-nidra (Samadhi). One who has induced Yoga-nidra, cannot fall a victim to death. ~Hatha Yoga Pradipika
Hatha Yoga Pradipika ~ Chapter 4

ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਅਉਰ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਈ ॥
eirraa pingulaa aour sukhamanaa theen basehi eik thaaee ||
The energy channels of the Ida, Pingala and Shushmanaa: these three dwell in one place.

ਬੇਣੀ ਸੰਗਮੁ ਤਹ ਪਿਰਾਗੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਥਾਈ ॥੧॥
baenee sangam theh piraag man majan karae thithhaaee ||1||
This is the true place of confluence of the three sacred rivers: this is where my mind takes its cleansing bath. ||1||

ਸੰਤਹੁ ਤਹਾ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ॥
santhahu thehaa niranjan raam hai ||
O Saints, the Immaculate Lord dwells there;

ਗੁਰ ਗਮਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਇ ॥
gur gam cheenai biralaa koe ||
how rare are those who go to the Guru, and understand this.

ਤਹਾਂ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thehaan niranjan rameeaa hoe ||1|| rehaao ||
The all-pervading immaculate Lord is there. ||1||Pause||

ਦੇਵ ਸਥਾਨੈ ਕਿਆ ਨੀਸਾਣੀ ॥
dhaev sathhaanai kiaa neesaanee ||
What is the insignia of the Divine Lord's dwelling?

ਤਹ ਬਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
theh baajae sabadh anaahadh baanee ||
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates there.

ਤਹ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਪਉਣੁ ਨ ਪਾਣੀ ॥
theh chandh n sooraj poun n paanee ||
There is no moon or sun, no air or water there.

ਸਾਖੀ ਜਾਗੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੨॥
saakhee jaagee guramukh jaanee ||2||
The Gurmukh becomes aware, and knows the Teachings. ||2||

ਉਪਜੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਛੀਜੈ ॥
oupajai giaan dhuramath shheejai ||
Spiritual wisdom wells up, and evil-mindedness departs;

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰਸਿ ਗਗਨੰਤਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥
anmrith ras gagananthar bheejai ||
the nucleus of the mind sky is drenched with Ambrosial Nectar.

ਏਸੁ ਕਲਾ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥
eaes kalaa jo jaanai bhaeo ||
One who knows the secret of this device,

ਭੇਟੈ ਤਾਸੁ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ॥੩॥
bhaettai thaas param guradhaeo ||3||
meets the Supreme Divine Guru. ||3||

ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੀ ਘਾਟੀ ॥
dhasam dhuaaraa agam apaaraa param purakh kee ghaattee ||
The Tenth Gate is the home of the inaccessible, infinite Supreme Lord.

ਊਪਰਿ ਹਾਟੁ ਹਾਟ ਪਰਿ ਆਲਾ ਆਲੇ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਥਾਤੀ ॥੪॥
oopar haatt haatt par aalaa aalae bheethar thhaathee ||4||
Above the store is a niche, and within this niche is the commodity. ||4||

ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥
jaagath rehai s kabahu n sovai ||
One who remains awake, never sleeps.

ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥
theen thilok samaadhh palovai ||
The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi.

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਲੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਹੈ ॥
beej manthra lai hiradhai rehai ||
He takes the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, and keeps it in his heart.

ਮਨੂਆ ਉਲਟਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਮਹਿ ਗਹੈ ॥੫॥
manooaa oulatt sunn mehi gehai ||5||
Turning his mind away from the world, he focuses on the cosmic void of the absolute Lord. ||5||

ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਅਲੀਆ ਭਾਖੈ ॥
jaagath rehai n aleeaa bhaakhai ||
He remains awake, and he does not lie.

ਪਾਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਬਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥
paacho eindhree bas kar raakhai ||
He keeps the five sensory organs under his control.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਖੀ ਰਾਖੈ ਚੀਤਿ ॥
gur kee saakhee raakhai cheeth ||
He cherishes in his consciousness the Guru's Teachings.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥੬॥
man than arapai kirasan pareeth ||6||
He dedicates his mind and body to the Lord's Love. ||6||

ਕਰ ਪਲਵ ਸਾਖਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
kar palav saakhaa beechaarae ||
He considers his hands to be the leaves and branches of the tree.

ਅਪਨਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰੇ ॥
apanaa janam n jooai haarae ||
He does not lose his life in the gamble.

ਅਸੁਰ ਨਦੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੈ ਮੂਲੁ ॥
asur nadhee kaa bandhhai mool ||
He plugs up the source of the river of evil tendencies.

ਪਛਿਮ ਫੇਰਿ ਚੜਾਵੈ ਸੂਰੁ ॥
pashhim faer charraavai soor ||
Turning away from the west, he makes the sun rise in the east.

ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰੈ ਸੁ ਨਿਝਰੁ ਝਰੈ ॥
ajar jarai s nijhar jharai ||
He bears the unbearable, and the drops trickle down within;

ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਸਿਉ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਕਰੈ ॥੭॥
jagannaathh sio gosatt karai ||7||
then, he speaks with the Lord of the world. ||7||

ਚਉਮੁਖ ਦੀਵਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਆਰ ॥
choumukh dheevaa joth dhuaar ||
The four-sided lamp illuminates the Tenth Gate.

ਪਲੂ ਅਨਤ ਮੂਲੁ ਬਿਚਕਾਰਿ ॥
paloo anath mool bichakaar ||
The Primal Lord is at the center of the countless leaves.

ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਲੇ ਆਪੇ ਰਹੈ ॥
sarab kalaa lae aapae rehai ||
He Himself abides there with all His powers.

ਮਨੁ ਮਾਣਕੁ ਰਤਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਹੈ ॥੮॥
man maanak rathanaa mehi guhai ||8||
He weaves the jewels into the pearl of the mind. ||8||

ਮਸਤਕਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਦੁਆਲੈ ਮਣੀ ॥
masathak padham dhuaalai manee ||
The lotus is at the forehead, and the jewels surround it.

ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
maahi niranjan thribhavan dhhanee ||
Within it is the Immaculate Lord, the Master of the three worlds.

ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲ ਬਾਜੇ ॥
panch sabadh niramaaeil baajae ||
The Panch Shabad, the five primal sounds, resound and vibrate their in their purity.

ਢੁਲਕੇ ਚਵਰ ਸੰਖ ਘਨ ਗਾਜੇ ॥
dtulakae chavar sankh ghan gaajae ||
The chauris - the fly brushes wave, and the conch shells blare like thunder.

ਦਲਿ ਮਲਿ ਦੈਤਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
dhal mal dhaithahu guramukh giaan ||
The Gurmukh tramples the demons underfoot with his spiritual wisdom.
~SGGS Ji p. 974​

Panch Shabds

Now we come to the nādas or sounds. The Shiva Sanhitā instructs the yogī to close the ears with the thumbs, the eyes with the index fingers, the nostrils with the middle fingers and the lips with the remaining four fingers. After some practice, he will begin to hear the mystic sounds. The first will be like the hum of a bee, then a flute and then a vīnā. With more practice there comes the sound of bells, and afterwards thunder. The mind of the yogī becomes absorbed in these sounds, and he forgets the external things which could distract him. 20 These sounds are usually called anāhata, or belonging to the heart center.

According to the Hatha Yoga Pradīpikā, when the ears, eyes, nose and mouth are closed, a clear sound is heard—first like the tinkling of ornaments, and later like kettle-drums; later still there is the sound of the flute and the vīnā. In the middle stage there may be the sound of bells and horns. The yogī must give his attention to the subtler sounds. The Nādabindu Upanishad also gives much the same order of sounds as the Hatha Yoga Pradīpikā, mentioning in stage one the sound of the sea, clouds, waterfalls and kettledrums, in the second stage that of drums, bells and horns, and thirdly, that of tinkling bells, flutes, vīnās and bees. The Hansa Upanishad gives the order more in agreement with the Shiva Sanhitā. First come soft chattering sounds, then that of the bell, conch, lute, cymbals, flute, drum, double drum, and, lastly, thunder. The nāda laya or "absorption through sound" is regarded as a great aid to concentration.

Amrita-Soma-Nectar:

The word bindu means 'drop or point'. It is more correctly termed bindu visarga, which literally means 'falling of the drop'. Bindu is represented by the crescent moon and a white drop, which is the nectar dripping down to vishuddhi chakra. It is the ultimate source out of which all things manifest and into which all things return.

"(Bindu) is the cause of the creation of word and meaning, now entering and now separating from one another."

"From that (bindu) came ether, air, fire, water, earth and the letters of the alphabet."

Kama-Kala-Vilasa (verses 6-9)

Swami Satyananda Saraswati | Kundalini Tantra | Section 2 | Chapter 9 | Bindu Visarga | VEDANTA.RU | vedanta yoga tantra Ramakrishna Vivekananda Sarada Devi Prabuddha Bharata Vedanta Keshari Swami Satyananda Saraswati Atman Brahman Shiva Vishnu Laksh​

Amrit comes from Sanskrit word: "Mrita" which literally means without death, immortality. And hence it has anciently been associated with yogic practices such as kundalini shakti awakening by placing surti on the praan, and japping Gurmantra to purify and piece the chakras and raise the energy to the level of 6th Agni (vishuddhi) chakra where sits the pineal and pituitary glands. By placing the tongue in back of the throat in kechari mudra seal, the tongue and breath becomes a cup and one is able to drink the amrita which flows down from this Agni chakra. The soma-nectar-amrit opens the mind to Turiya consciousness so the tenth gate, or Sahasrara chakra (thousand petalled lotus) opens and one receives darshan of the Lord and becomes jivan-mukti.

ਉਲਟਤ ਪਵਨ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਖਟੁ ਭੇਦੇ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਅਨਰਾਗੀ ॥
oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee ||
I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.

ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਜੀਵੈ ਤਾਸੁ ਖੋਜੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥੧॥
aavai n jaae marai n jeevai thaas khoj bairaagee ||1||
Search for the One who does not come or go, who does not die and is not born, O renunciate. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 333​

Again, these teachings are all from yoga sutras. And they are in Gurbani. Can anyone care to explain:

1. Why if these are Gurmat teachings, Sikhs today know nothing about them?
2. If Guruji accepted teachings of yoga sutras as method of liberation, how does Guruji's message of Sikhism significantly differ from sanatana Dharam?

ਨਾਨਕ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਮਹਿ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ॥੫॥
naanak chouthhae padh mehi so jan gath paaeae ||5||
- O Nanak, in the fourth state, those humble servants attain salvation. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 284​

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[dalsingh]

If Sikhi is the same as Vaishnav philosophy, how comes the Vaisnavs were never inspired to organised themselves to resist Moghul oppression?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

There is no doubt that Sikhism is heavily influenced by hindu theology, but it would be very wrong to say that we are still hindus. If you have read gita, you must read mannu smriti too, you will know that sikhs are not hindus. I understand that lot of people who had read vedas, upnishads and other hindu shashtras say that sikhs are real hindus. That is a good compliment, but still sikhs are not hindus.

Just saying does not make it so. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. What I mean by that is, the proof is in the teachings themselves, not in any comparison to the worst social excesses of Manu Smritis, which many sects of Hinduism have a problem with. It is abundantly clear from both Vaishnava reform movements, and the subsequent Sufi Panthis and Nanak Panthis that historically a revolution of sorts took place within the same time period AGAINST the brahmin elitism of Manu Smritis. So simply to keep comparing Hinduism in general, with its many divergent sects with the worst excesses of the brahmin elite, DESPITE the revolutionary reform movements which sought to address those social injustices, itself does an injustice to the authentic definition of Hindu religion.

The fact that Vaishnava Ram Naami's were also known as the untouchable religion because they accepted the equality of a brahmin as well as an untouchable, and admitted and recognized untouchable sants like Bhagat Namdev and Kabir Ji is historical proof that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Panth was more akin to these movements than distinguished from Hinduism because of Manu Smritis. Unless you insist in arguing that Vaishnava Vedanta is NOT a sect of Hinduism, and the only truth about Hindu religion is corruption, caste injustice, brahmin elitism and hypocrisy. That Singh Sabha world-view of Hinduism is shamefully innacurate, and Sikhs who insist on using it to distinguish Sikhi only put themselves down. Let's all bow respectfully to the Truth, which is God's authentic nature.

I belong to Teh Zira distt Ferozepur in Punjab. Before partition, my native tehsil many families who were muslims, they were used to go to gurudwara instead of mosque. They could not see any difference between two religions. Even some ragis in gurudwaras were muslim. Partition happened and big number of these families change their names to Sikh names. There was no other change. Ali Baksh becomes Bakshish singh, Noor Mohamad becomes Harnoor singh. Sikhism is walking thin line between indic and semitic religions. To both sides, it appears we are one of them.

Surely you must know the history of the mass conversions among Muslims by the Singh Sabha reform movement in a deliberate effort to estrange Sikh identity from Hinduism?

His endeavor with preaching Sikhism started when he met Bhai Mool Singh Gurmuula in 1904 A.D. In those days Sikh preachers would visit village to village and give lectures about Sikhism. Situation of Sikhism was bad, Gurdwaras were under control of Mahants, Sikhs were fastly assimiliating into Hinduism. At one such lecture he listened to Bhai Mool Singh when he was speaking at village virn . Bhai Mool Singh's lecutre gave him such enthusiasm to serve Sikhism that anytime a need of preacher arose in any village he along with his party would reach there. He was a fierce worker (Sewadar) of Singh Sabha movement. At one such incident at village Kotli Dasu Singh when a muslim who wanted to convert to Sikhism and about 40-50 muslims attacked the ongoing ceremony. Sardar Kartar Singh Jhabbar and his party defended this ceromony with their staffs.

Singh Sabha movement was actively converting Low caste Hindus and Muslims to Sikhism at this time all over Punjab. Normally in such a ceremony after a lecture of Sikh leaders and Gurbani, a Jathedar would call to a congregation that if anybody wants to become a Amritdhari Sikh he/she should come forward. Kartar Singh Jhabbar visited numerous villages all over Punjab and give his lecture in many congregation. Then Jhabbar started making members of Singh Sabha. In two months he made 500 members, during his lectures at Gurdwara Baoli Sahib everyday about five six thousands Sikhs would gather. Later he shifted his headquarters to Lahore. Chief Khalsa Diwan at this time was creating Khalsa Colleges schools as well as involved with all the academic activites associated with Sikhism.
Biography of Jathedar Kartar Singh Jhabbar

Now, let's read between the lines a little bit, and understand that a mass influx of population from low caste Hindus, disgruntled with brahmin elitism as well as British occupation, and Muslims, equally disgruntled with both were recruited en masse for a political objective in the 1900's and deliberately made amritdhari and members of Singh Sabha. Now, apart from any sentimental conversion feelings, this is an obvious political thrust to disenfranchise and alienate the traditional Hindu population from belonging and brotherhood with the Sikh community which they had enjoyed under the Sikhism of the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

So, because there was a mass influx of communities who had NOT been Sikh before, with a decidedly propagandictic and political objective to gain the numbers to disenfranchise and alienate the previous Hindu community, no one can credibly use the argument that "Muslims joined Sikh religion because of their common religious philosophy."

Let's be transparently honest now, apart from Singh Sabha distortions to force Sikhsim, against all Gurbani, to fit into an Abrahamic definition of monotheism, in order to deliberately downplay the pantheistic Vedanta in the original Gurbani definitions, and to create the propaganda that Sikhism was as much a part of Islam as it was a part of Hinduism is patently false.

What true Islamic, who believes in One monotheistic God, is going to accept a pantheistic All-pervading definition? What true Islamic, who believes in the right of Muslims to put to death those who serve fake gods, will tolerate a pantheistic One nirguna who is called by names of Hindu deities, who is described in terms of Hinduism as Shiva and Shakti, Brama, Vishnu and Mahesh, Parvati and Lakshmi?

And the honest answer is.... not one. So let's stop playing word games. Islam is categorically opposed to pagan and false religiohns which it defines as anything other than Allah, Mohammed the Prophet, and the holy Koran. And the hundreds of years of butchery, rape, torture and cruelty which make up Moghul rule in India is heavy testament to the unrivaled intolerance of Islamic religion. The fact is majority of Muslim converts to Sikh religion were from original Hindu families forced to convert under threat of torture and death during Moghal occupation. So what exactly is a Muslim in Punjab historically who was indigenous to Punjab? He was a Hindu. Do you deny?

Besides blindly making claims and assertions, I am still waiting for someone to show me directly, where in Gurbani does Sikh spiritual philosophy incorporate ANY Islamic spiritual teaching into it's belief system. Because apart from adopting a few Arabic and Farsi and Turkish words, Sikhism rejects Islamic extremism and continues to define the spiritual path to mukti in terms of Vaishnav Upanishads. Even showing that Gurbani incorporated 10% of Islamic spiritual teaching, and 90% of Vaishnav teaching would still be unpersuasive. But I have poured through Gurbani with a strong familiarity with Islam and Abrahamic faiths, and the 10% of teaching is not even there. Not even 1% of Gurbani teaching is related to Islamic spiritual philosophy.

So when I read these incredible and unsupported claims, I read them as propagandistic lies originating from dissimilation by Singh Sabha, trying desperately to deny Hindu relationship even by disreputable means, such as bold-faced lies and political machinations as mass conversions. But considering the cultural disruption caused by the British and their Christian missionaries, it's understandable in context.

I can't help but conclude it was equally damaging in hindsight, because modern Sikhs are completely dissociated and virulently rejecting of the sanatan origins of Sikh teaching. Seeing as majority of Sikhs are Punjabis, from Indic race, and Indic culture it comes across as a form of self-hatred when Sikhs look down on Hindus and try to more closely align themselves with Islam, Abrahamic faiths, the British, Western societies, science and all that. It's very telling that these notions come from collaborators with the enemy from a particular time in history. Because no matter how anyone slices it, the Sikh definition of God in Gurbani is Vedantic and bears zero relationship with Abrahamic definitions of One Creator God against a backdrop of false and demonic imposter gods. NO POSSIBLE WAY. It is self-delusion even to think it. Let's be true to Gurbani.

Do this experiment if you still doubt. Go to any Hindu forum and post this tuuk of Gurbani defining God.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2​

They will have no problem recognizing immediately the Hindu origin of this definition. Then do the same thing on Islamic forums, and see what response you get, if they will accept you and consider you as you say,

"Sikhism is walking thin line between indic and semitic religions. To both sides, it appears we are one of them."

That entire statement is so absurdly false as to bring smile to my face. Go test for yourself, with actual Gurbani quotes and tell me which Islamic, Christian or Jewish website will accept Gurbani definition of God as all-pervading nirguna with a sarguna, with Naams of Hindu devas and accepted as having created the 330 million demi-gods. And then come post here their smiling acceptances of you as the same religion. PLEASE! I am waiting for some fine humor. (I am already blowing away the flames of hellfire and damnation.) Let's not be ludicrous. These religions think Sikh Guruji is of the devil, an apostate and a false prophet. Only Islamics who believe Guru Nanak secretly converted to Islam will accept you...provided you also convert.

Please do this experiment and then post link to your honest responses received. I dare you. And then let's put away nonsense talk which has no validity describing Sikh definition of God by IGNORING tuuks of Gurbani which would be considered offensive to monotheists, WHILE PRETENDING to yourselves to be monotheists like the Abrahamics, which you clearly are not.

SHUDDHI SABHA, a society working in the closing years of the nineteenth century primarily for the reconversion to SIKHISM of those proselytized into Christianity or Islam, was established in 1893. . Christian proselytization had started with the advent of British rule in the Punjab with official encouragement. Though the rate was never alarming, the local religious communities were becoming increasingly selfconscious. The SIKH response had materialized in the shape of the SINGH Sabha. That the SIKHS were the main target is clear from the valedictory instructions given to the first batch of misssionaries of the Church of England appointed to the Punjab in 1852. "A few hopeful instances," they were told, "lead us to believe that the Sikhs may prove more accessible to scriptural truths than the Hindus and the Muhammedans...."

The principal mission centre was set up at AMRITSAR, the religious capital of the Sikhs. Converts steadily came from amongst Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims. To reclaim such of them as had converted to Christianity, the Muslims formed associations like HimayatiIslam. Orthodox Hinduism does not permit readmission of the apostates, and it was not till the rise of the Arya Samaj that reconversion of shuddhi was encouraged. The Singh Sabha was not averse to reclaiming converts, but its focus was mainly on religious reform and education. Specifically for reconversion a separate Jatt Singh Sabha was formed at LAHORE by Bhai Uttam Singh and Bhai Nihal Singh Jamadar. Some other Sikhs individually cooperated with the Arya Samajists in their efforts at reconversion. A broadbased organization came into existence only when Dr Jai Singh (1856-1898), who had not long before set up as a chemist in Lahore, established on 17 April 1893 the Shuddhi Sabha, with representatives from the Singh Sabha, Jatt Singh Sabha, Arya Samaj, Sanatan Dharam Sabha, and Pandit Sabha.

Interesting, not the Hindu Mahants, but the Singh Sabha itself formed it's own separate Jatt caste Sabha. Now THAT bit of history doesn't fit with the glorified story does it? Neither does the part about Singh Sabha collaboration with the British and efforts to win numbers to justify a British re-establishment of the independant Sikh Raj, since the British were inclined to go with the majority Hindus and feared strengthening Sikh's. So collaboration got Sikhs... nothing. But it created a rift between Sikhism and Hinduism that had not existed during the tolerant reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. And it had direct relationship to later conflicts like partition and even Khalisan movement due to incredible animosity created between independant "nationhood" Sikhs and Hindus.

Harjas ji earlier gave example how sikhs used to have all the hindu rituals. Most of earlier Sikh days fighting with authorities, running from homes, hiding in jungles. Gurudwaras were in control of hindu mahants. But it had to change and it did.

Are you really expecting me to believe that original Sikhs were like Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha guys, running around fighting in jungles, and that Sikh Gurus were so short-sighted as to irresponsibly leave Gurdwaras in hands of Hindu Mahants who would deliberately alter their message of a new Sikh religion? Are you really expecting me to believe that despite heavy Vedanticism in Gurbani and in Shri Dasm Granth bani, that Sikh Misls were so cowardly and irresponsible as to leave Gurdwaras in hands of their "enemies" the corrupted Hindus, despite the fact they were proclaimed a NEW religion?

Are you really expecting me to believe that after Sikhs obtained the Kingdom of Punjab, so hard fought for, that everything about it was a corruption and a distortion from the past? That Khalsa had truly fallen when Sikhs established a prosperous and peaceful empire. But Khalsa were resurrected when we got Singh Sabha, SGPC, Akali Dal and Sikh Missionary College and Khalsa schools? Do you really believe Sikh leadership today is a resurrection of the True Khalsa and better than independant Sikh kingdom under Maharaja Ranjit Singh? I find that hard to bear. Really I do, because modern Sikh institutions and leadership is the real corruption and distortion. Just look at Punjab under their leadership.

The fact Gurbani mentions Guru and Gurmukhs wearing Tilak, and Maharaja Ranjit Singh also wearing Tilak does not even strike you as odd? The fact that Dasm Granth sings praise of Baughati Chandi, and Sikh battle standards were adorned with goddess Chandi, and a painting existed which hung in Harmandir Sahib showing Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji with goddess Chandi is all an accident?

This is just an interpretive opinion which doesn't even answer the facts as to WHY these incredible sanatan discrepancies exist in Sikh history. Sikh history did not begin and end with Singh Sabha reform. But quite apart from that, let's just analyse the teachings within Gurbani itself. How can anyone deny that sanatana Dharma is the origin of Gurbani teaching? I mean how do we erase and reinterpret every reference to Hindu deva or avtaara and call it all accident of history to manipulate Hindu masses under guise of converting them to a new monotheistic religion, or worse, call Gurbani in part mythological and hence we can pick and choose at will what to believe from it.

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

If Sikhi is the same as Vaishnav philosophy, how comes the Vaisnavs were never inspired to organised themselves to resist Moghul oppression?

Why do you content yourself to believe definition of Hindus as cowardly and treacherous and in need of brave Sikhs to protect them? Even knowing about the bir ras in Dasm Granth bani you still doubt a tradition of Hindu warriors existed, that all Hindus were pacifists like Gandhi and only Sikhs could create a separate warrior religion to save them? Doesn't it occur to you such a simpistic world-view is nothing less than propaganda? Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Khalsa derived out of a Kshatriya martial tradition which included many other heroes. Certainly Sikhs were not the only warrior heroes of India during the Moghul oppression. These myths of Hindu pacifism are political attempt by the British to control the nation...after slaughtering hundreds of thousands, and nearly rewriting an entire religious history. In fact, if you analyze the warrior traditions and sects of Hindu India, you can't help but notice powerful parallels between these Hindu warrior traditions and the traditions of the Sikhs. Vaishnavas and Shaivites were constantly fighting each other as warrior acharas. They died by thousands fighting the British. Just consider British influence and propaganda. Look at Naamdhari sect. During time of Ram Singh Naamdhari and British resistence movement, they were fierce fighters. Now they are pacifists who don't even wear kirpan. The truth is (and I have already posted an article on this), the sadhus and religious acharas which survived, had to become pacifist because the warriors were exterminated outright. There are new studies regarding the British occupation which are looking at perhaps massacres of millions. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/24/india.randeepramesh


http://www.virginia.edu/soasia/symsem/kisan/papers/sadhus.html

Well, lets honestly look at history and not be overly simplistic in this regard.

Perhaps you have never heard of Rajasthanis, who took to themselves the surname Singh in the 8th century before Guru Nanak's birth.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that everything about the Vishnu avtaaras and Durga/Chandi in Gurbani shows them as armed to the teeth and slaughtering demons.

There was in fact a history of warrior sadhus, primarily Shaivites but also Vaishnavas. Here you see in this picture the jura and trishul of Shiva, hallmarks of a warrior-yogi.

akhara: “exercise arena” or “wrestling pit”; refers in ascetic content to armed regiment or branch of order

bairagi: “bereft of emotion”; generic term for ascetic; often used for armed Vaishnava ascetic

Bhairava: "a horrific form of Siva, “haunt of the cremation ground”

chakra: "sharp-edged metal disc used as a projectile weapon by medieval and early modern yogis; also yogic term for each of the seven centers of energy in the human body; from Sanskrit chakram (wheel)."

gosain: “in control of emotions”; generic term for ascetic; often used for armed Saiva ascetic."

naga: "warrior ascetic; thought to connote nakedness, from Sanskrit nagna (naked)."

Rajput: "progeny of kings; extended clans of warrior-rulers (Kshatriya) with many branches throughout northern India."

Many people assume, largely because of Gandhi’s legacy, that Hinduism is a religion of non-violence. William R. Pinch shows just how wrong this assumption is. Using the life of Anupgiri Gosain, a Hindu ascetic who lived at the end of the eighteenth century, to explore the subject, he demonstrates that Hindu warrior ascetics were not only pervasive in the medieval and early modern Indian past, but were also an important component of the South Asian military labor market and crucial to the rise of British imperialism. Today, these warriors occupy a prominent place in modern Indian imaginations, ironically as romantic defenders of a Hindu India against foreign invasion, even though they are almost totally absent from the pages of Indian history. William Pinch’s innovative and gloriously composed book sets out to correct this historiographical deficiency and to piece together the story of the rise and demise of warrior asceticism in India from the 1500s to the present. Implicit in his approach is the need to measure modern mythologies of Hindu warrior asceticism against the real-life experiences of powerful, violence-prone ascetics.
Warrior Ascetics and Indian Empires - Cambridge University Press

If, however, we view the decade surrounding 1800 as an endpoint rather than a beginning, and conceptualize our inquiry in terms of mentality and practice rather than insurgency, we get a very different picture of armed asceticism in Indian history. By the mid-eighteenth century, with the decline of Mughal imperial authority at Delhi, a new phase of armed asceticism had crystallized. Substantial armies led by either gosains or bairagis and peopled by a rank-and-file "naga" soldiery would find lucrative service in the armies of the major north Indian states -- most notably, under the first three nawabs of Awadh, the Kachhwaha maharajas of Jaipur, and the Jat maharajas of Bharatpur. The most famous of these was Anupgiri Gosain, mentioned above; less well known but equally important was his "elder brother" Umraogiri. Both saw service with almost every major power in northern India, including the British. Only slightly less important were Balanand Swami of Jaipur and his disciple, Ramakrishna Mahant, who together served Madho Singh of Jaipur and Jawahir and Nawal Singh of Bharatpur. The tenacious naga soldiers these men were able to bring to bear on the battlefield would vary, but often reached 20,000 men, consisting of both horse and foot. Their weaponry was state-of-the-art and included musketry and artillery, materials for mounting sieges against well fortified locations, camel guns; their mounted soldiery was said to have the use of "excellent mares", and they also possessed elephants and other pack animals required to transport heavy equipment.

The large numbers suggest that naga commanders cast a wide net for military recruitment, and relied in particular upon the local north Indian peasant population. (23) Indeed, what is particularly significant about the armed akharas is that they appear to have been remarkably open socially, so tar as recruitment was concerned. This is certainly suggested by the low status to which Saiva nagas have been relegated in the Dasnami hierarchy since the nineteenth century. a low status that is uniformly based on the oft-repeated imputations of the shudra and untouchable origins of the akharas by the well-born Dasnami orthodoxy. (24) And the fact that the "low-born" (antyaj)


were finding their way into the ranks of the Vaishnava bairagi akharas in the early eighteenth century is confirmed by the tact that no lesser light than Jai Singh II himself sought to prohibit their initiation as Ramanandis. (25) For the commanders, who seem to have been of higher status, the scanty biographical information that is available suggests that economic hardship played a role in turning to a life in the akhara: Anupgiri and Umraogiri, according to Bundelkhandi folklore, were the orphaned children of indigent Brahmans of Bundelkhand; (26) the Vaishnava commander Madhodas (who became famous as "Banda Bahadur," the leader of the Sikh resistance against the Mughals after the death of Gobind Singh) was the son of a poor Kashmiri Rajput ploughman...

in 1787, William Hodges observed that the village of Firozabad was control by a gosain, who maintains an army of 2000 well-armed men in a camp nearby and had a small park of artillery, including "two fine pieces of battering cannon," and that the local agriculture was in an excellent state.(28)

The akhara provided the institutional context whereby peasants, shudras, the "low-born ', and perhaps even untouchables, could be hardened into effective, disciplined soldiers. Naga discipline enabled Anupgiri and Umraogiri to mount the daring operations during the 1750s to 1770 for which they became so well known --particularly the raids on urban fortifications or enemy encampments under the cover of darkness. (29) A guerilla style of rapid attack-and-retreat combat is seen as well in the four-decade long series of skirmishes that marked the sanyasi and fakir insurgency in Bengal. Francis Buchanan would describe the "nagas" of Bengal and Bihar as "rogues who from going quite naked[,] close shaved and well rubbed with oil are so slippery that no one can seize them while they force their way with a dagger pointed at both ends and held by the middle." (30) It is not difficult to imagine, then, how James Rennell, the pioneering Company mapmaker, received his wounds after surprising a large party of armed sanyasis just south of including a sabre gash that "cut through my right Shoulder Bone, and laid me open for nearly


a toot down the Back, cutting through and wounding some of my Ribs....a cut on the left Elbow, which took off the muscular part of the breadth of a Hand, a Stab in the Arm, and a large cut on the head." (31)

Gosains and bairagis to the west likewise had a good reputation as fierce fighters and loyal soldiers. James Skinner thought well enough of the latter to include a portrait of a well-armed bairagi in early nineteenth-century caste compendium, Tasrih-i-Ahwam; significantly, he includes them in the final section of his work, dealing with sects, sadhus, and fakirs. And Lieutenant-Colonel Valentine Blacker, reflecting on the rise of infantry forces in late eighteenth-century India, ranked gosains just below the elite Arabs and Sindhis: "The Gossyes have been always considered as good troops. They are a Hindoo cast of peculiar habits, scattered over different parts of India. Among other professions, they pursue that of arms, and may be ranked in the same degree with Rohillah [Afghans], Jats, and Seiks." (32) The comparison to Jats and Sikhs is quite appropriate, given McLeod's argument regarding the transformation of the Nanakpanth into the Khalsa.
http://www.virginia.edu/soasia/symsem/kisan/papers/sadhus.html

Shivaji Bhosle, also known as Chhatrapati Shivaji Raje Bhosle (Marathi: छत्रपती शिवाजीराजे भोसले) (Born:February 19, 1630, Died: April 3, 1680) was the founder of Maratha empire in western India in 1674.

He is considered a great hero in India, especially in the present-day state of Maharashtra...

At the age of 17 Shivaji carried out his first military action by attacking and capturing Torna fort of the Bijapur kingdom, in 1645. By 1647 he had captured Kondana and Rajgad forts and had complete control of the Pune region.

By 1654 Shivaji had captured forts in the Western Ghats and along the Konkan coast. In a bid to sabotage this move of the Marathas under Shivaji's able leadership, Adilshah had his father - Shahaji arrested by deceitful means, and he sent one army against Sambhaji, Shivaji's elder brother at Bangalore (lead by Farradkhan) and another against Shivaji at Purandhar (lead by Fattekhan). However both Bhonsle brothers defeated the invading armies securing the release of their father. Afzal Khan, the seasoned and great warrior, was then sent to destroy Shivaji, in an effort to put down what was seen by Bijapur as a regional revolt.

Afzal Khan, after leaving Bijapur to confront Shivaji, first desecrated the temples of goddess Bhavani in Tuljapur and Pandharpur. The intent was to get a roiled, disturbed, and shaken Shivaji out in the open to face him in a pitched battle. Instead, Shivaji sent a letter saying he was not eager to face Afzal Khan and sought some type of understanding. Shivaji upon carefully weighing his options, strategically decided to confront and surprise Afzal Khan under the guise of diplomatic negotiations. A meeting was arranged between Afzal Khan and Shivaji at the foothills of Fort Pratapgad. Afzal Khan planned to kill Shivaji during the meeting.

Wagh nakh

Shivaji, armed himself with a weapon called bagh nakh (tiger claw), and chilkhat (armour) prior to the meeting. Afzal Khan attemted to stab Shivaji in the back, as they embraced, with a dagger. Shivaji was unscath due to the armour he wore under his clothes, and attacked Afzal Khan with a bagh nakh and bich'hwa, spilling his blood and entrails on the ground. Thereupon Afzal Khan's deputy, Krishnaji Bhaskar Kulkarni and his bodyguard Sayyed Banda attacked Shivaji with swords but Jiva Mahala, Shivaji's personal bodyguard fatally struck them down with a 'dandpatta' (medieval weapon). Afzal Khan managed to stumble out of the tent to get help but was immediately slain by Shivaji's associate Sambhaji Kavji, before he could alert his commanders or raise an alarm.

In the ensuing battle of Pratapgarh in the dense forests, which was fought on November 30, 1659, Shivaji's armies set upon Bijapur's forces and engaged them in swift flanking maneuvers...

This great and complete victory made Shivaji a hero of Maratha folklore and a legendary figure among his people.

Subsequently, the Sultan of Bijapur sent an elite Pashtun army to subdue and defeat Shivaji before he could substantially expand his army. In the resulting war of Panhalgadh, Bijapur's Pashtun army was decimated by the Maratha troops. The battle ended in the surrenderof Bijapuri forces to Shivaji.

Thee Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb, now identified Shivaji as a major enemy of the Mughal Empire...

To counter the loss at Pratapgad and to defeat the nascent Maratha power, another army, this time numbering over 10,000, was sent against Shivaji, commanded by renowned Bijapuri general Rustemjaman. With cavalry of 5000 Marathas, Shivaji attacked them near Kolhapur on 28 December 1659. In a swift movement, Shivaji led a full frontal attack at the center of the enemy forces while other two portions of his cavalry attacked the flanks. The hand-to-hand combat was ferocious, the action was interspersed with the Maratha war cry "Har Har Mahadev" (hail to Lord Shiva), with "Allahu Akbhar" (God is great) the Muslim war cry. In a ****** pitched battle, the Bijapuri forces folded under the ferocious Maratha onslaught and in the ensuing panic, Rustemjaman fled the battlefield.

Shivaji's Mavale/Maratha soldiers clearly demonstrated their courage and martial tendency by fearlessly attacking in a pitched battle the combined and formidable Bijapur army made up of elite forces of Arab, Abyssinian, Persian and Afghan mercenaries. This news made the mighty Mughal empire more alarmed at the successes of the upstart Maratha - Shivaji, who was now derisively called "Mountain Rat" by the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb...

In the years 1667-69, Shivaji adopted a low profile and began to aggressively build up his army. The Mughals had the impression that he was now a spent force and would not cause them any more trouble. However, Shivaji was on a war-footing, directing efforts for an all out war by increasing the size of his army, acquiring arms, horses, armour and other war materials. Then in January 1670 Shivaji launched a major, concerted and multi-pronged assault on Mughal garrisons in Maharashtra.

The force of Shivaji's attacks was overwhelming and within six months he had regained most of his old territory and more. His army was much larger now: about 40,000 cavalry, backed by 60,000 infantry, a strong navy and a potent artillery. From 1670 to 1674 Shivaji continued to actively and aggressively expand his territory at the expense of the Mughals who were now facing major pressures on their treasuries as their war related expenses outstripped the incoming tax revenues...

Tanaji and Uday Bhan came face to face and a fierce fight ensued. A solid blow from Uday Bhan broke Tanaji's shield. He continued the fight until another fatal blow from Uday Bhan staggered Tanaji and a counter blow then killed Uday Bhan. Seeing their leader mortally wounded, the Maratha soldiers became tentative and started to back-up and retreat. Suryaji, then stepped in front and center to rally them and to get them to be back on the offensive. His exhortations and his leadership lifted the Maratha spirit. The Marathas now determinedly commenced their attack on the Mughal defenders with great courage and tenacity, and captured the fort.

This battle is quite popular in Marathi folklore and is retold as a reminder of the glory and sacrifice that was the Maratha war of Independence.

When Shivaji learned that he had lost his brave, loyal and trusted friend, he said "Gad ala, pun sinha geyla", meaning We have won the fort, but lost the Lion. Thenceforth Kondana fort was formally named Sinhagad (the Lion fort) in honour of the great Tanaji Malusare...

Chhatrapati Shivaji died at 12 noon, 3rd April, in 1680 at Raigad, after running a fever for three weeks. It is said that he died due to contracting a disease ****** Flux, Intestinal anthrox. The funeral ceremony was arranged in Raigad in presence of his son Rajaram, and Soyarabai. After Shivaji's death, his elder son Sambhaji and Soyrabai , fought for control of the kingdom. After a brief struggle Sambhaji was crowned king.

A few years after Shivaji's death, Aurangzeb's son, Prince Akbar, rebelled against his father and was sheltered by Sambhaji. Thereafter, Aurangzeb, his army, entourage and the royal court moved to the Deccan, in mass, in 1681 to wage an all out war for the complete destruction of Maratha power. This was the beginning of the twenty seven year war, initially the Marathas were overwhelmed by the might and the great power of the Mughal empire. Under the overpowering and unrelenting Mughal assault the endangered Maratha capital was moved and evacuated from Raigad to Jinjee in the south and for a time it seemed that Aurangzeb's objective of stamping out the Maratha threat, once and for all, would be achieved. However, in the following months and years the tide of the war began to change.

The Marathas adapted very well to the huge but slow moving Mughal menace and fought Aurangzeb to a stalemate. And towards the end of the second decade the Marathas gathered more strength and began to turn the tide of the war. The Mughal forces were dealt several serious body blows by able Maratha generals like Santaji Ghorpade and Dhanaji Jadhav. They effectively employed lightning fast and highly mobile attacks, tactics initially developed and effectively used by Shivaji.

Eventually a broken, defeated Aurangzeb retreated in sickness from the Deccan in 1705. The final Mughal withdrawal came two years later. He had spent most of his remaining resources and manpower trying to defeat the Marathas and ended up significantly weakening the once mighty Mughal Empire. Aurangzeb's heirs never again challenged the Marathas and were themselves finally overtaken and utterly dominated by the Peshwa's Maratha Sardars, namely Scindia and Holkar, within eighty years of Shivaji's death.

This 27 year war, was a tribute to Shivaji's genius, in which even after his death, Maratha forces felt a great sense of privilege to fight to honour his memory to expel Aurangzeb out of the Deccan to preserve the Maratha self-rule swarajya and to fulfill Shivaji's goals of independent Maharashtra and Hindustan.

Jadunath Sarkar, a noted Indian historian and a scholar, estimates that about 500,000 Mughal soldiers and 200,000 Marathas died during this decades long epic struggle for dominance.

Shivaji's leadership and successes contributed significantly to stiffening up of Hindu assertiveness and resurgence in post Islamic India. He was the first of many great Indian leaders and the most successful in the fight for freedom, for Swaraj.
Shivaji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shivaji Maharaj hero of Maratha

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[dalsingh]

Why do you content yourself to believe definition of Hindus as cowardly and treacherous and in need of brave Sikhs to protect them? Even knowing about the bir ras in Dasm Granth bani you still doubt a tradition of Hindu warriors existed, that all Hindus were pacifists like Gandhi and only Sikhs could create a separate warrior religion to save them? Doesn't it occur to you such a simpistic world-view is nothing less than propaganda?

You really need to apply brakes to the hurtling steam train Harjas. I, in no way, consider all Hindus to be cowardly and treacherous. I think you are projecting some presumptions upon me. I don't subscribe to the type of stereotyping you are suggesting. So please first, let that sink in.

I know Hindu society can be violent and militant. You don't have to look too far for evidence for this, past and present. I haven't either subscribed to the thinking that portrays Sikhs as the "swordarm" of Hinduism either, despite meeting many Hindus over the years who actually believe this themselves.

I'm also aware of Shivaji but you do have to ask why, given the comparatively large numbers of Hindus in comparison to Sikhs, there were not more like Shivaji and his followers? The miltancy of shivaji seems quite exceptional in Hindu society whilst militancy was an essential and integral part of the original Khalsa.

Don't get your facts twisted up. I have grown up in quite a rough and ready part of town and have seen cowardice from Sikhs in the face of violence. I don't subscribe to that supremacist thinking you're alluding to. But in the end, Sikhism and Hinduism are two distinctly different things.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Harjas ji,
You are trying to convince my fellow Sikh brethern here that Sikhism is offshoot of vaishnav. Do you reallly understand that by saying so you are backstabing house of Satgur Nanak? Do you understand you are levelling allegations against Satgur Nanak for stealing vaishnav philosophy and not even mentioning it?

"My fellow Sikh brethren." Do you realize how dualistic this all sounds, "us" against "them." That's a political viewpoint. So hold on tight to your "brethren" because a little lady will give "you Sikh brethren" some powerful thoughts to consider.

Do you reallly understand that by saying so you are backstabing house of Satgur Nanak? Do you understand you are levelling allegations against Satgur Nanak for stealing vaishnav philosophy and not even mentioning it?
I accuse modern Sikh movement of stabbing Guru Nanak Dev Ji's message in the back and creating some kind of elitest, ethnocentric "us" against "them" political philosophy out of a spiritual teaching of seeing the One All-pervading God in every other.

How can Guru Nanak Dev Ji "steal" Vaishnav philosophy if He Himself was a Vaishnav and an avtaara of the Vaishnav lineage? Since it is Gurbani itself which elevates the das avtaara, and calls Guruji an avataar, perhaps we should rethink this childish mentality of Guruji "stealing" a philosophy. Rather it goes to prove Guruji was from within this tradition, and not at odds with it, as Singh Sabha reformers have tried to create. It is the Singh Sabha position which has waged war on Guruji's teaching.

Harjas ji, if you believe for a minute in Satgur Nanak and what he is saying, do you think he would have mentioned it in his mool mantar? Or atleast in Japji? (although you have been trying in vain to prove that aum means trimurti not Lord himself). What stopped Guru Nanak from writing word 'Vishnu' in mool mantar?

Do you think Vedantic spiritual philosophy reads like a child's book having to underscore every sentence with: "Vishnu is indeed the Supreme in case you were all wondering." It isn't Vishnu that certain schools of Vaishnavism worship as Supreme. Some worship Krishna as Supreme. And others worship Maha-Vishnu, which translates the All-Pervading One, as Supreme. It is my belief that Gurbani elevates the All-pervading Oneness of nirguna, which is a form of Maha-Vishnu. And the corroboration for this is Gurbani elevates the das avataars as sargun God, and teaches Sikhs to praise the nirguna by japping Naams and titles of the avataars, Bhai Gurdas Ji also shows Vaheguru Gurmantra consists of beej syllables of Vishnu avtaras: V=Vishnu, Vasudeyv, H=Har Krishna, G=Gobind, R=Ram.

You don't find this shocking based on your position there is NO Vaishnavism in Gurbani? I don't suppose with your position that Muslims recognize Gurbani definitions of the One Creator God would happily accept Vaheguru Gurmantra. If you at all studied Vaishnava Upanishads you would realize the Vaishnava school recognizes the Parabrahm narayana as the ultimate sargun. Maha-Vishnu is the Jyot by which the nirguna incarnates. These aren't "different gods" but different aspects of the Oneness.

Vishnu (IAST viṣṇu, Devanagari विष्णु), (honorific: Bhagavan or Sri Vishnu) also known as Narayana, is the Hindu god, responsible for the preservation of the universe. He is considered as the Supreme being or Ultimate Reality (Brahman) in Vaishnavism, a sect of Hinduism devoted to Vishnu worship.

The Vishnu Sahasranama[1] describes Vishnu as the All-Pervading essence of all beings, the master of and beyond the past, present and future, the creator and destroyer of all existences, one who supports, sustains and governs the Universe and originates and develops all elements within.

In the Puranas, Vishnu is described as having the divine color of clouds (dark-blue), four-armed, holding a lotus, mace, conch and chakra (wheel). Vishnu is also described in the Bhagavad Gita as having a 'Universal Form' (Vishvarupa) which is beyond the ordinary limits of human sense perception [2].
Vishnu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting if Gurbani denies Vishnu, as you presume, can you please explain this tuuk?

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

It is also within the Puranas that the information regarding Vishnu's avatars is given. Nine of these avatars, or 'incarnations' are described as having occurred in the past, with one still to happen at the end of Kali Yuga. The Bhagavad Gita mentions their purpose as being to rejuvenate Dharma[3] and vanquish negative forces as also to display His divine pastimes in front of the conditioned/fallen souls. In virtually all the Sanatana Dharma traditions, Vishnu is worshipped, either directly or through avatars such as Rama, Krishna, Varaha and Narasimha. It should be however noted that although its is usual to speak of Vishnu as the source of the avatars, this is only one of the names of god in Vaishnavism who is also known as Narayana, Vasudeva and Krishna and behind each of those names is a divine figure with attributed supremacy in Vaishnavism.[4]

* Bhagavata 1.2.11 declares: "vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate". The meaning of the verse is as follows: "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. [5]

* In the Vishnu Purana (6.5.79) the personality named Parashara Rishi defines six bhagas as follows:

aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ
jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva �ṣannāḥ bhaga itīṇganā

Jiva Gosvami explains the verse in his Gopala Champu (Pūrva 15.73) and Bhagavata Sandarbha 46.10:

jñāna-śakti-balaiśvarya-vīrya-tejām.sy aśeṣ�ataḥ
bhagavac-chabda-vācyāni vinā heyair guṇādibhiḥ

"The substantives of the word bhagavat (bhagavat-śabda-vācyāni) are unlimited (aśes.atah.) knowledge (jñāna), energies (śakti), strength (bala), opulence (aiśvarya), heroism (vīrya), splendor (tejas), without (vinā) objectionable (heyair) qualities (guṇādibhiḥ)."

In the Trimurti, Vishnu is responsible for the maintenance or 'preservation' of the Universe, with the other roles of creation and destruction being under the care of Brahma and Shiva, respectively.But it is further given in the vedas that Mahavishnu is the "Adi-Purusha" Himself.That means that the Vishnu we talk about is the localised aspect of Godhead found in every universe whereas the primal Godhead,Mahavishnu is one and Supreme.

The traditional Sanskrit explanation of the name Viṣṇu involves the root viś, meaning "to settle, to enter", or also (in the Rigveda) "to pervade", and a suffix nu, translating to approximately "the All-Pervading One". An early commentator on the Vedas, Yaska, in his Nirukta, defines Vishnu as 'vishnu vishateh; one who enters everywhere', and 'yad vishito bhavati tad vishnurbhavati; that which is free from fetters and bondages is Vishnu.'

Adi Sankara in his commentary on Vishnu Sahasranama states derivation from this root, with a meaning "presence everywhere" ("As he pervades everything, vevesti, he is called Visnu"). Adi Sankara states (regarding Vishnu Purana, 3.1.45): "The Power of the Supreme Being has entered within the universe. The root Viś means 'enter into.'" Swami Chinmayananda, in his translation of Vishnu sahasranama further elaborates on that verse: The root Vis means to enter. The entire world of things and beings is pervaded by Him and the Upanishad emphatically insists in its mantra "whatever that is there is the world of change." Hence, it means that He is not limited by space, time or substance. Chinmayananda states that which pervades everything is Vishnu. [6]
Vishnu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ॥
sabh eaekaa joth jaanai jae koee ||
The One Light is all-pervading; only a few know this.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
sathigur saeviai paragatt hoee ||
Serving the True Guru, this is revealed.

ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਥਾਈ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥
gupath paragatt varathai sabh thhaaee jothee joth milaavaniaa ||2||
In the hidden and in the obvious, He is pervading all places. Our light merges into the Light. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 120​

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe.

ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥
naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​

I just have some idea of what vaishnav mat is about. But I have full faith in Satguru Nanak. He never gave preference to vaishnav mat in his teachings. Sometimes people see what they want to see.

I am still waiting for believable explanation for all the Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani as NOT meaning a Vaishnavist philosophy of some sort was the intention. You say you have "full faith" in what you think Guruji did or didn't teach. Yet the teachings are right in front of you and you refuse to see them. Why is Vaishnav teaching of the 10 incarnations of Vishnu in Gurbani being praised as sargun God? EXPLAIN PLEASE? I'm sure the Islamics would love to know. Especially since you said they felt so sure that Sikhism teaches so much from their religious philosophy they believe it is the same religion. And you know as well as I do, tuuks like this in Gurbani would get you murdered in an Islamic country if you tried to say it was the same religion as Islam.

You know most of the sikhs here are not familiar with vaisnav teaching, yet you come here with lot of examples from vedas, vaishnav theology and ofcourse gurbani, trying to prove that Sikhism is another form of vaishnav mat.

Why are Sikhs, who are medical doctors, lawyers, engineers, millionaire businessmen, generals, who would visit a "Sikh Philosophy Forum" and especially on an "interfaith dialogue thread" remain so uneducated about a religious philosophy which appears in their own Gurbani and has been contested issue for 100 years now? Is there an excuse for Sikhs to remain uneducated if they want to study the spiritual implications of their own religion?

You realize that hinduism has oral tradition of keeping their texts. How can you say that texts you have been referring not been altered to make more sense in modern times? Hinduism had no answer for Budhhism for centuries. But then with new translations from Shankarcharya, brahmins made Buddhism just another sect of hinduism and distinct features of Buddhism (ahinsa(hence vegetarianism), vipasna, idol worship) were made just some more hindu rituals.

Veer ji, you're going to have to do better than that. For one thing, the Vaishnava Upanishads and Puranas are all older than Guru Nanak Dev Ji. No underground malicious Hindutva organization is rewriting old scriptures simply to prove a political point about Sikhs. Do you realize how this argument sounds? It reminds me of the Christians who accuse that all the dinosaur bones which prove theory of evolution were placed in the ground by the devil to deceive mankind into disbelieving the Christian Bible.

The writings of Shankara in establishing Advaita philosophy to understand Buddhist doctrines of Shunyata are absolute gems. This isn't any rewriting of the original Vedas. It is powerful re-interpretation of ancient scriptures. But a discussion on Advaita and Dvaita and Achinta-Bedha-Abedha would have to be a thread of it's own for the sheer brilliance, beauty and complexity. To relegate the greatest philosophical minds discussing complex teachings about nirguna and sarguna, as being some deliberate, clumsy, paranoid, manipulative re-writing to incorporate Busddhist doctrine is so far off the mark. Buddha is regarded as a Vishnu avataar precisely because his spiritual insights were so brilliant, the sages of the day had to scramble to put them in context.

Do you really believe that Vaishnavists, for example, went back to the Bhagavata Purana and added things about the nirguna and the sarguna and the das avataara simply to prove that Gurbani writing about these concepts shows that Sikh religion is Vaishnav philosophy? It's not even logical. Or do you mean to imply that the das avataara is some kind of Sikh monotheistic concept and the Vaishnavs stole it by re-writing into their framework of philosophy? Because once we let go of these clumsy and untenable interpretations, we have to logically conclude that the Sikh Gurus were obviously educated and accepted the spiritual concepts which derive from a Vaishnav framework. And proof of the acceptance is Guruji WROTE these concepts into what has been designated, not the writings of many people from different backgrounds where were can agree or disagree with bhagat bani versus Gurubani... but ALL these philosophical writings have been incorporated into a whole... designated as SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAAJ! And when Sikhs bow their heads to Guruji, they bow their heads to absolutely everything that is written in Gurbani as absolute truth revealed by the Guru to the shishya.

So we don't pick and choose and invent our own philosophy about what Guruji is teaching. Guruji is the teacher. We are not the teacher. When I say Gurbani has Vaishnav message it is because that message is in Gurbani, and I can prove parallels with Vaishnav scriptures. I did not make anything up just to cause drama or upset sentiments of people. So don't accuse me blindly of doing so. I try to prove the sources of my points and clearly link them. I do not claim to be correct. I can only be correct to the best of my understanding. But one thing I refuse to do...I refuse to conform my opinion to a political agenda. I am convinced of the truth of Vaishnav spiritual philosophy in Gurbani message and that is why I accept Sikhi to be sanatana Dharma and not a separate religion.

There are many refrences to vaishnav mat in gurbani. But I must post this shabad.
panna 960

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੫ ॥
Shalok, Fifth Mehl:

ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਅੰਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਅੰਨਾ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੀ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Blind inwardly, and blind outwardly, he sings falsely, falsely.

ਦੇਹੀ ਧੋਵੈ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬਣਾਏ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਵੈ ॥
He washes his body, and draws ritual marks on it, and totally runs after wealth.

ਅੰਦਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
But the filth of his egotism is not removed from within, and over and over again, he comes and goes in reincarnation.

ਨੀਂਦ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਕਾਮਿ ਸੰਤਾਪਿਆ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
Engulfed in sleep, and tormented by frustrated sexual desire, he chants the Lord's Name with his mouth.

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਮ ਹਉ ਜੁਗਤਾ ਤੁਹ ਕੁਟੇ ਕਿਆ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
He is called a Vaishnav, but he is bound to deeds of egotism; by threshing only husks, what rewards can be obtained?

ਹੰਸਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਬੈਠਾ ਬਗੁ ਨ ਬਣਈ ਨਿਤ ਬੈਠਾ ਮਛੀ ਨੋ ਤਾਰ ਲਾਵੈ ॥
Sitting among the swans, the crane does not become one of them; sitting there, he keeps staring at the fish.

ਜਾ ਹੰਸ ਸਭਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਤਾ ਬਗਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਜੋੜੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
And when the gathering of swans looks and sees, they realize that they can never form an alliance with the crane.

ਹੰਸਾ ਹੀਰਾ ਮੋਤੀ ਚੁਗਣਾ ਬਗੁ ਡਡਾ ਭਾਲਣ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
The swans peck at the diamonds and pearls, while the crane chases after frogs.

ਉਡਰਿਆ ਵੇਚਾਰਾ ਬਗੁਲਾ ਮਤੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੰਞੁ ਲਖਾਵੈ ॥
The poor crane flies away, so that his secret will not be exposed.

ਜਿਤੁ ਕੋ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤ ਹੀ ਲਾਗਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਦੋਸੁ ਦਿਚੈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
Whatever the Lord attaches one to, to that he is attached. Who is to blame, when the Lord wills it so?

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਰਵਰੁ ਰਤਨੀ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
The True Guru is the lake, overflowing with pearls. One who meets the True Guru obtains them.

ਸਿਖ ਹੰਸ ਸਰਵਰਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਹੁਕਮਾਵੈ ॥
The Sikh-swans gather at the lake, according to the Will of the True Guru.

ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਮਾਣਕ ਸਰਵਰਿ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਖਾਇ ਖਰਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
The lake is filled with the wealth of these jewels and pearls; they are spent and consumed, but they never run out.

ਸਰਵਰ ਹੰਸੁ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਤੇ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
The swan never leaves the lake; such is the Pleasure of the Creator's Will.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਹਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
O servant Nanak, one who has such pre-ordained destiny inscribed upon his forehead - that Sikh comes to the Guru.

ਆਪਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਸਭਾ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
He saves himself, and saves all his generations as well; he emancipates the whole world. ||1||​

Ask yourself the question, is this pauri saying all Vaishnavs are corrupted hypocrites as per the ethnocentric and egotistical Singh Sabha definition? Or is the pauri warning us NOT to pretend to be outwardly pure and spiritual while remaining corrupted? Because that is a profound difference in interpretation. So either ALL Vaishnavs are corrupted hypocrites and Gurbani denounces them. Or Vaishnavs are considered holy, and Gurbani is warning people to be sincere Vaishnavs and not hypocritical. If you are called a Vaishnav, Gurbani is saying, live up to the name as in this tuuk by Bhagat Baini:

ਠਗ ਦਿਸਟਿ ਬਗਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
thag dhisatt bagaa liv laagaa ||
You look like a thug; pretending to meditate, you pose like a crane.

ਦੇਖਿ ਬੈਸਨੋਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮੁਖ ਭਾਗਾ ॥੧॥
dhaekh baisano praan mukh bhaagaa ||1||
You try to look like a Vaishnaav, but the breath of life escapes through your mouth. ||1||​

Another important fact to consider is Gurbani will never contradict itself if it is absolute truth. It cannot say one thing one place, and then another someplace else. It has to be coherent, and all the points need to line up and match. So consider this...if the Singh Sabha anti-Vaishnav viewpoint was the correct interpretation of this pauri in Gurbani, how can anyone then reconcile with this?

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਨੇਮ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
karam dhharam naem brath poojaa ||
The karma of good actions, the Dharma of righteous living, religious rituals, fasts and worship

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
paarabreham bin jaan n dhoojaa ||2||
- practice these, but do not know any other than the Supreme Lord God. ||2||

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲ ॥ਜਾ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੩॥
thaa kee pooran hoee ghaal || jaa kee preeth apunae prabh naal ||3||
Those who place their love in God - their works are brought to fruition. ||3||

ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋਹੈ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
so baisano hai apar apaar ||
Infinitely invaluable is that Vaishnaav, that worshipper of Vishnu,

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਜੇ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥੪॥੯੬॥੧੬੫॥
kahu naanak jin thajae bikaar ||4||96||165||
says Nanak, who has renounced corruption. ||4||96||165||
~SGGS Ji p. 199​

You are trying to prove Sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat. Me, an ignorant Sikh, is reading literally 'vaishnav' word as mentioned above. You are trying to prove here with examples taken from vedas and other hindu texts alongwith shabads that Sikhism philosophy is borowed from vaishnav mat. Me, here is just believing what fifth master has to say about vaishnav mat.

Indeed. Let's read closely and intently in context of other pauris what Shri Guru Arjun Dev Ji is saying. Read and please explain to me, reconciling it with your imposed interpretation of the first pauri you quoted. Gurbani has to reconcile and match up. It can't say one thing one place and something else somewhere else, or that just means we haven't understood it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਅਪਰਸ ॥੧॥
naanak kott madhhae ko aisaa aparas ||1||
- O Nanak, among millions, there is scarcely one such 'touch-nothing Saint'. ||1||

ਬੈਸਨੋਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥
baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||
The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||
He dwells apart from Maya.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥
karam karath hovai nihakaram ||
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥
this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||
Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥
kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai ||
he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥
kaeval bhagath keerathan sang raachai ||
He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
man than anthar simaran gopaal ||
Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥
sabh oopar hovath kirapaal ||
He is kind to all creatures.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥
aap dhrirrai avareh naam japaavai ||
He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
naanak ouhu baisano param gath paavai ||2||
O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥
bhagouthee bhagavanth bhagath kaa rang ||
The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God.

ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ॥
sagal thiaagai dhusatt kaa sang ||
He forsakes the company of all wicked people.

ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ ॥
man thae binasai sagalaa bharam ||
All doubts are removed from his mind.

ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥
kar poojai sagal paarabreham ||
He performs devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥
saadhhasang paapaa mal khovai ||
In the Company of the Holy, the filth of sin is washed away.

ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
this bhagouthee kee math ootham hovai ||
The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes supreme.

ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕੀ ਟਹਲ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਨੀਤਿ ॥
bhagavanth kee ttehal karai nith neeth ||
He constantly performs the service of the Supreme Lord God.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਬਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥
man than arapai bisan pareeth ||
He dedicates his mind and body to the Love of God.

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
har kae charan hiradhai basaavai ||
The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart.

ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥
naanak aisaa bhagouthee bhagavanth ko paavai ||3||
O Nanak, such a Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥
so panddith jo man parabodhhai ||
He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥
raam naam aatham mehi sodhhai ||
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ॥
raam naam saar ras peevai ||
He drinks in the Exquisite Nectar of the Lord's Name.

ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕੈ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥
ous panddith kai oupadhaes jag jeevai ||
By that Pandit's teachings, the world lives.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
har kee kathhaa hiradhai basaavai ||
He implants the Sermon of the Lord in his heart.

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
so panddith fir jon n aavai ||
Such a Pandit is not cast into the womb of reincarnation again.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥
naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
beej manthra sarab ko giaan ||
The Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, is spiritual wisdom for everyone.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਜਪੈ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
chahu varanaa mehi japai kooo naam ||
Anyone, from any class, may chant the Naam.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
jo jo japai this kee gath hoe ||
Whoever chants it, is emancipated.
~SGGS Ji p. 274
​

Harjas ji, you understand gurbani is collection of shabads said by different authors with different religious backgrounds at different times in different conditions. Guru sahib were trying to say that Lord can be reached even while living in different sharias (religious rituals) if you have love of Lord. But you have taken these shabads without trying to understand context, put together to reach the conclusion that Sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat.

The entire Gurbani is not different messages from different people. It is one Shabad-Jyot of Guru Sahib. And every single word of it is a complete and harmonious message of truth. Gurbani does not say Vaishnav is following rituals in the way it says a brahmin is. Gurbani says don't be a hypocritical Vaishnav, because the Vaishnav is spotlessly pure and attains the Supreme Lord by Naam jap and Kirtan. And this is undoubtedly why Sikhs jap and sing kirtan of the sargun names of the Vishnu avataars like the Vaishnavs do. And that alone begs the question of Vaishnav mat, don't you think?

Harjas ji, I have just one question. Do you agree that Fifth Master had better knowledge of gurubani and vaishnav mat than you and me? If yes, what do you think stopped them from beating bushes here and there instead of saying in every shabad that we are vaishnavs, but gurmukhs? Do you have doubts about Fifth Master's intentions?

If fifth Master is saying that religion of a Vaishnav is spotlessly pure, don't you think we should evaluate what exactly that might mean before jumping to conclusions about fifth Master "condemning" all Vaishnavs? Wouldn't that kind of attitude show more loyalty to Guruji's actual message that imposing some anti-Vaishnav, hostility and inferiority about Vaishnava Vedanta? Because the way I see it, so many "self-righteous Sikhs" condemning holy people of Hindu Panth are actually condemning themselves spiritually in Guruji's eyes and showing disloyalty to Guruji's message which was far more inclusive than modern Singh Sabha political animosities. That is the real betrayal.

If you doubt Fifth Master's intentions, then you are not a Sikh, but a vaishnav, trying to impose that sikhs are part of vaishnav mat.

You presume to judge my soul?

ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਮਕਰੰਦੁ ਰਸਿ ਹੋਇ ਭਵਰੁ ਲੈ ਵਾਸੁ ਲੁਭਾਵੈ ।
charan kamal makarandu rasi hoi bhavaru|ai vaasu|ubhaavai|
Like the black bee they surrender at the lotus feet of Guru and enjoy the sap and remain happy.

ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਲਘਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਬੇਣੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਆਵੈ ।
irhaa pingulaa sukhamanaa|aghi tribaynee nij ghari aavai|
They go beyond the triveni of ira, pingala and susumna and stablize in their own self.

ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਪਵਣ ਲਿਵ ਸੋਹੰ ਹੰਸਾ ਜਪੈ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
saahi saahi manu pavan|iv sohan hansaa japai japaavai|
They through the flame of breath, mind and the life force, recite and make others recite the soham and hans recitations (jap)

ਅਚਰਜ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੂਪ ਲਿਵ ਗੰਧ ਸੁਗੰਧਿ ਅਵੇਸੁ ਮਚਾਵੈ ।
acharaj roop anoop|iv gandh sugandhi avaysu machaavai|
The form of surati is wonderfully fragrant and enrapturing.

ਸੁਖਸਾਗਰ ਚਰਣਾਰਬਿੰਦ ਸੁਖ ਸੰਪਟ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।
sukhasaagar charanaarabind sukh sanpat vichi sahaji samaavai|
The gurmukhs calmly absorb in the pleasure-ocean of the Guru feet.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖ ਫਲ ਪਿਰਮ ਰਸੁ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਦੇਹ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।
guramukhi sukh dhal piram rasu dayh bidayh param padu paavai|
When they in the form of pleasure-fruit obtain the supreme joy, they go beyond the bondages of body and bodylessness and attain the highest station.

ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਵੈ ॥੧੧॥
saadh sangati mili alakhu|akhaavai ॥11॥
Such gurmukhs have the glimpse of that invisible Lord in the holy congregation.
~Vaar 6 Pauri 11 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​

It is believed that the entire creation was manifested with the sound of Om, the Nada Brahman. Om is a combination of So and Ham. This sound vibrates every moment of our life till there is life in our body, till life continues to flow through the Kundalini.

When the sound travels through the various bodies it gets refined and the vibration ultimately merges in Om. It is constantly chanted within us and is thus called the highest mantra, the Mantra Maheshwara. Ham beejam, says the Guru Gita, which means the sound of Ham is the seed of the entire consciousness which pervades us.

Soham is a combination of the two syllables so and ham. When we inhale, the sound produced is 'ham'; when we exhale, it is 'so'. Thus Soham is a combination of these two vibrations as breath comes in and goes out of the body. Soham or Hamsa mean the same.

Soham is derived from a text, Vigyana Bhairava, a science related by the primordial transcendental principle, Shiva or Bhairava. It is in the form of a dialogue between Shiva and his consort Shakti. A combination of consciousness which is absolute and energy which is creative is what makes the life breath for us.

That gives us the force which sustains the physical body. Each one of us is constantly going through this process of Soham which translates in Sanskrit to "that I am" - Soham, or "I am that" - Hamsa.

It is believed that the entire creation was manifested with the sound of Om, the Nada Brahman. Om is a combination of So and Ham. This sound vibrates every moment of our life till there is life in our body, till life continues to flow through the Kundalini.

The force which produces that sound, which moves the breath through the respiratory system, is the force which is consciousness, that which makes us aware that we are a part of the entire cosmic consciousness - Aham Vimarsa. I am awareness, the awareness of the Absolute 'I'.

When the sound travels through the various bodies it gets refined and the vibration ultimately merges in Om. It is constantly chanted within us and is thus called the highest mantra, the Mantra Maheshwara. Ham beejam, says the Guru Gita, which means the sound of Ham is the seed of the entire consciousness which pervades us.
Life and Death: Science of Life - Soham or Hamsa

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

(although you have been trying in vain to prove that aum means trimurti not Lord himself)

Indeed. Well lets look at basic definitions before concluding something is vain or not.

Eko Brahman Omkara.
Ekaksara. Omkara.
Ek Omkar.

Seems like a logical derivation meaning the nirgun One Parabrahman created the universe out of the three gunas and the three Mahadevas. Gurbani says this as well. Where Gurbani describes the God as All-pervading, here is where you find your Maha-Vishnu, most especially where you find praise of the das avtaaras of Vishnu, many would consider that particular spiritual philosophy, a form of Vaishnavism directly taken from Vaishnava Puranas.

one definition of Aum from vast knowledge of hinduism and can try to prove that EkOmKar means 'one trimurti creator'.
Definition you are giving is one of the definitions Aum given by one of many indian schools (hindu, jain, budhhsist etc). If we look in wikepedia for 'Aum', yours definition comes at somewhere below middle of page under heading 'Puranic Hinduism'.

The fact is, Ek Omkar refers to both nirguna and sarguna. Hence it is both the One and the many. The Lord Himself is uncreated. And the Lord Himself pervades in His creation. And that is the root meaning of EkOmKara.

ਆਪਿ ਇਕੰਤੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
aap eikanthee aap pasaaraa ||
He Himself is the One, and He Himself is the Many.
~sggs jI P. 108​

ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
kaesavaa bachounee aeeeae meeeae eaek aan jeeo ||2||
The Lord says, ""This creation and I are one and the same.""||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 693​

Most Sikhs don't even know what the "sound current of the Naad even is. And that the Nada comes from the Aum. Even the simple words EkOmKar are derivative from an ancient, complex yogic and mystical philosophy regarding secrets of the creation of the universes taken from Sruti. Even from the very begining of sanatana Dharma, the teaching that sound current and japping certain mantras of sounds were a path to liberation. There are many mantras. Sikhism simply takes those Naam mantras found in Vaishnavism and promotes them as the highest boat of mukti for the kalyug, as opposed to say Gayatri mantra, or ritualistic pujas. Sikhism says the bhakti of Naam japna is the way of ultimate liberation. And this is the same exact teaching of Vaishnava bhakti. So I don't know why anyone would go to great lengths trying to prove there is no association possible, when the teachings are so parallel.

Metaphysically, the mystic sounds of the Eternal, of which the highest is the transcendent or Soundless Sound, Paranada, the first vibration from which creation emanates. Paranada is so pure and subtle that it cannot be identified to the denser regions of the mind. From Paranada comes Pranava, Aum, and further evolutes of nada. These are experienced by the meditator as the nadanadi shakti, "the energy current of sound," heard pulsing through the nerve system as a constant high-pitched hum, much like a tambura, an electrical transformer, a swarm of bees or a shruti box.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Nada/id/60996

The Sanskrit name for the syllable is praṇava, from a root nu "to shout, sound, praise", verbal pra-nu- being attested as "to make a humming or droning sound" in the Brahmanas, and taking the specific meaning of "to utter the syllable om" in the Chandogya Upanishad and the Shrauta Sutras. More rarely used terms are akṣara or ekākṣara, and in later times omkāra becomes prevalent.

The syllable Aum is first described as all-encompassing mystical entity in the Upanishads. Today, in all Hindu art and all over India and Nepal, 'Aum' can be seen virtually everywhere, a common sign for Hinduism and its philosophy and mythology.


The syllable is mentioned in all the Upanishads, specially elaborated upon in the Taittiriya, Chandogya and Mandukya Upanishad set forth as the object of profound religious meditation, the highest spiritual efficacy being attributed not only to the whole word but also to the three sounds a (a-kāra), u (u-kāra), m (ma-kāra), of which it consists.

The Katha Upanishad has:
"The goal, which all Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at, and which humans desire when they live a life of continence, I will tell you briefly it is Aum"
"The one syllable [evākṣara, viz. Aum] is indeed Brahman. This one syllable is the highest. Whosoever knows this one syllable obtains all that he desires.
"This is the best support; this is the highest support. Whosoever knows this support is adored in the world of Brahma." (1.2.15-17)[1]

The Chandogya Upanishad (1.1.1-1) states:
om ity etad akṣaram udgītham upāsīta / om iti hy udgāyati / tasyopavyākhyānam
"The udgitha ["the chanting", that is, the syllable om] is the best of all essences, the highest, deserving the highest place, the eighth."

The Bhagavad Gita (8.13) has:
Uttering the monosyllable Aum, the eternal world of Brahman, One who departs leaving the body (at death), he attains the superior goal.

The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali states in verse (1:27):
"tasya vacakah pranavah" which translates as, "God's voice is Aum."

In the following sutra it emphasizes, "The repetition of Om should be made with an understanding of its meaning". [2]


In Puranic Hinduism, Aum is the mystic name for the Hindu Trimurti, and represents the union of the three gods, viz. a for Brahma, u for Vishnu and m for Mahadev which is another name of Shiva. The three sounds also symbolize the three Vedas (Rigveda, Samaveda, Yajurveda).

According to Hindu philosophy(see Mandukya Upanishad), the letter A represents creation, when all existence issued forth from Brahma's golden nucleus; the letter U refers to Vishnu the god of the middle who preserves this world by balancing Brahma on a lotus above himself, and the letter M symbolizes the final part of the cycle of existence, when Vishnu falls asleep and Shiva has to breathe in so that all existing things have to disintegrate and are reduced to their essence to him. More broadly, Aum is said to be the primordial sound that was present at the creation of the universe. It is said to be the original sound that contains all other sounds, all words, all languages and all mantras.


Vaishnava Dvaita philosophies teach that 'Aum' is an impersonal sound representation of Vishnu/Krishna while Hari Nama is the personal sound representation. A represents Krishna, U Srimati Radharani and M jivas. According to Sridhara Svami the pranava has five parts: A, U, M, the nasal bindu and the reverberation (nada). Liberated souls meditate on the Lord at the end of that reverberation. For both Hindus and Buddhists this syllable is sacred and so laden with spiritual energy that it may only be pronounced with complete concentration.


In Advaita philosophy it is frequently used to represent three subsumed into one, a common theme in Hinduism. It implies that our current existence is mithyā and maya, "falsehood", that in order to know the full truth we must comprehend beyond the body and intellect the true nature of infinity. Essentially, upon moksha (mukti, samadhi) one is able not only to see or know existence for what it is, but to become it. When one gains true knowledge, there is no split between knower and known: one becomes knowledge/consciousness itself. In essence, Aum is the signifier of the ultimate truth that all is one.

Examples of Three into One:

* Creation (Brahma)- Preservation (Vishnu)- Destruction (Shiva) into Brahman
* Waking- Dreaming- Dreamless Sleep into Turiya (transcendental fourth state of consciousness)
* Rajas (activity, heat, fire) - Tamas (dullness, ignorance, darkness) - Sattva (purity, light, serenity/shanti) into Brahman
* Body, Speech and Mind into Oneness
Aum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

If Sikhi is the same as Vaishnav philosophy, how comes the Vaisnavs were never inspired to organised themselves to resist Moghul oppression?


I'm also aware of Shivaji but you do have to ask why, given the comparatively large numbers of Hindus in comparison to Sikhs, there were not more like Shivaji and his followers? The miltancy of shivaji seems quite exceptional in Hindu society whilst militancy was an essential and integral part of the original Khalsa.

There were military movements of sadhus, the Shaivite Nath and Vaishnava acharas were Armies, as were the Khalsa naturally these groups stood out. But not all of these groups had the best weapons. The militancy of Shivaji is exceptional perhaps because of his individual brilliance, much as the brilliant militancy of Dasm Pita Ji. But just because people fight and die and lose battles doesn't mean they have less courage. Even with some of the world's greatest military leaders like Guruji Maharaaj and Shivaji, the Moghul Armies were too big and too powerful. It was a genuine achievement and grace that Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was able to actually rout the Moghuls, but this was after a 500 year period of brutal oppression. The fact remains that only if you divide Sikhs out of the equation does it look like Hindus can't defend themselves. But if you consider Sikhs a sect within basic Vedantic teachings, then the Khalsa were and are, like the Kshatriyas of old and the sadhu acharyas, evidence of the strength, determination and persistence of the Hindu people against overwhelming odds, to keep fighting until they won.

People creating the notion that Sikhs, like some foreign group just happened upon a culture of oppression and decided it was merciful to lay down their lives defending Hindus doesn't even make logical sense.

It's the artificial contrivance of the argument where Sikhs aren't fighting for the homeland of their own ancestors, or the precious and masterful teachings of Gurbani which are based on familiar and precious teachings from ancient masterpieces of spirituality like the Vedas and Upanishads. So naturally where Sikhs consider that only their ancestors made military sacrifices for India, just suppresses a more realistic understanding of the actual history that Hindus from this region of Hindustan kept developing revolutionary spiritual movements to rally the people to fight and resist injustice until the Moghuls were finally driven out. And so we have to look again at the meanings of the term Hindu as being religion as well as culture. Because it's unrealistic to say Sikhs weren't a part of this cultural heritage and enduring the very same sacrifices of cruelty, injustice and barbarism which caused so many to fight and die over hundreds of years than to submit.

And if you factor into the equation that genocidal massacres have the ability to destroy the fighting spirit of entire villages, and even cultures, and second that God Himself ordained Guruji to be the power to drive out the Moguls plus the economic collapse of the Moghul empire finally was the tipping point that turned the tide of a hundreds years long conflict. There's really no question about whether Sikhs are a better community than Hindus, or Hindus are somehow inferior and disorganized. Realistically, at least until the time of Singh Sabha reform, Hindu's didn't see Sikhs as a different religion. And the fact that so many Hindu families gave their first born sons to join and fight with the Khalsa tells you something about the cultural identity of the Khalsa Army as being one of substantially Hindu identity. So how precisely do we divide out the Sikh population from the Hindu population to create the artificial standard that Sikhs did more for Hindustan than Hindus?

Don't you see the illogic of the argument?

 

[Astroboy]

It is entirely irrelevant from a research point of view to analyze how imaginative modern movements may now lay claim to interpreting Kalki avataar. It simply has no bearing whatsoever on analyzing what mention of Kalki avataar in Gurbani could mean.

Harjas Ji,

Perhaps we are making an assumption here as to what Hinduism is. Do you know that Shiva is never mentioned in the Brahmin literature ? In fact, Shiva was never a Hindu deity that's why it's called Dakshina Moorty. I can even challenge anyone who claims that Raam was a Hindu. Just because Ramayana (Story of Ram) was written and followed by so-called Hindus, doesn't make Raam a Hindu Avtaar. Just like Kabir or Sheikh Fareed who are revered by Sikhs, does not make them Sikhs.

 

[dalsingh]

There were military movements of sadhus, the Shaivite Nath and Vaishnava acharas were Armies, as were the Khalsa naturally these groups stood out. But not all of these groups had the best weapons. The militancy of Shivaji is exceptional perhaps because of his individual brilliance, much as the brilliant militancy of Dasm Pita Ji. But just because people fight and die and lose battles doesn't mean they have less courage. Even with some of the world's greatest military leaders like Guruji Maharaaj and Shivaji, the Moghul Armies were too big and too powerful. It was a genuine achievement and grace that Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was able to actually rout the Moghuls, but this was after a 500 year period of brutal oppression. The fact remains that only if you divide Sikhs out of the equation does it look like Hindus can't defend themselves. But if you consider Sikhs a sect within basic Vedantic teachings, then the Khalsa were and are, like the Kshatriyas of old and the sadhu acharyas, evidence of the strength, determination and persistence of the Hindu people against overwhelming odds, to keep fighting until they won.

There were significant differences between original Khalsas and ksyattris. The foremost being the latter were serving an overlord and not, as in the case of the Khalsa, a set of ideals, Panjabi territory or their own existence.

People creating the notion that Sikhs, like some foreign group just happened upon a culture of oppression and decided it was merciful to lay down their lives defending Hindus doesn't even make logical sense.

It doesn't make sense because it is false and anyone pushing this view is also wrong. What motivated the Khalsa to free captive women in Abdali Shah/Nadir Shah's returning caravans is subject to conjecture, I can't say definitively. Was it politically motivated? Was it some social understanding Sikhs of that time had? I don't know. However, I am pretty sure that Sikhs didn't see themselves as the swordarm of Hinduism and that this idea became current at a later stage.

It's the artificial contrivance of the argument where Sikhs aren't fighting for the homeland of their own ancestors, or the precious and masterful teachings of Gurbani which are based on familiar and precious teachings from ancient masterpieces of spirituality like the Vedas and Upanishads. So naturally where Sikhs consider that only their ancestors made military sacrifices for India, just suppresses a more realistic understanding of the actual history that Hindus from this region of Hindustan kept developing revolutionary spiritual movements to rally the people to fight and resist injustice until the Moghuls were finally driven out. And so we have to look again at the meanings of the term Hindu as being religion as well as culture. Because it's unrealistic to say Sikhs weren't a part of this cultural heritage and enduring the very same sacrifices of cruelty, injustice and barbarism which caused so many to fight and die over hundreds of years than to submit.

In this analysis you conveniently overlook the fact that many Rajputs and Brahmins were colluding with the Moguls administration and had a vested interest in their success. This is no secret. Where certain aspiring Rajput Hill Rajahs did try to assert their independence from Moghul/Turk rule, the history of Dasmesh Pita shows they were very fluid in their position. Fighting against them one moment and colluding the next. Sikh tradition also states that higher caste Hindus were generally disinclined to join the Khalsa, seeing it as a break away from their own traditions and perhaps not wanting to completely destroy links with the ruling classes. This may also explain why the majority of Sikhs are made up of the peasant and artisan classes who had nothing to gain from maintaining links with the rulers. This also highlights the social and class struggle in the original Sikh movement.

Khalsa history is significantly different in that the majority Tat Khalsa (not the Singh Sabha group of the same name), adopted and maintained a position of anti-establishment to extremes from Banda Singh onwards. This can be seen in many forms including, interestingly, a ban on learning Persian as seen in some extant rehat namas.

Yes, there is likley to have been considerable sympathy for the Khalsa's anti-government stance from many quarters including Jatts and other oppressed Hindus. This will have grown to admiration as the Khalsa successfully contested their opponents. This will also explain the conversions and giving away of a son. Look I'm not trying to whitewash any relationship between Hindus and Sikhs but it must be admitted that especially after the post-Khalsa period, the two took seriously different trajectories. Again you may be in danger of overemphasizing similarities and ignoring important differences.

There's really no question about whether Sikhs are a better community than Hindus, or Hindus are somehow inferior and disorganized. Realistically, at least until the time of Singh Sabha reform, Hindu's didn't see Sikhs as a different religion. And the fact that so many Hindu families gave their first born sons to join and fight with the Khalsa tells you something about the cultural identity of the Khalsa Army as being one of substantially Hindu identity. So how precisely do we divide out the Sikh population from the Hindu population to create the artificial standard that Sikhs did more for Hindustan than Hindus?

Don't you see the illogic of the argument?

I don't even get the argument. Sikhs didn't consciously do anything for Hindustan. Sure, their actions benefited Hindustan by successfully challenging Islamic invasions and stopping these. I believe this to be an inadvertent consequence. This was not done for Hindustan but for Sikhs own sake. We know how Panjabis suffered from the hordes passing through the Khyber Pass for centuries. So any Sikh pushing that, "we saved Hindus nonsense" needs to stop. But also bear in mind that plenty of Hindus past and present subscribe to the "Hindu swordarm" theory themselves. Hell, I very recently had a well educated doctor expressing this to me. If some Sikhs are brainwashed into thinking themselves the saviours of Hindus, then some Hindus themselves are brainwashed into thinking that Sikhs are their protectors.

Anyway, I'm bowing out now.

Harjas, I must say however, that many of the points you make are valid and worthwhile and that Sikhs should look into the ways in which British influence on Sikhi during the colonised period, impacted on Sikhs both positively and negatively.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Namjap ji writes: "Perhaps we are making an assumption here as to what Hinduism is. Do you know that Shiva is never mentioned in the Brahmin literature ? In fact, Shiva was never a Hindu deity that's why it's called Dakshina Moorty. I can even challenge anyone who claims that Raam was a Hindu. Just because Ramayana (Story of Ram) was written and followed by so-called Hindus, doesn't make Raam a Hindu Avtaar. Just like Kabir or Sheikh Fareed who are revered by Sikhs, does not make them Sikhs."

Well we are back to the original contention that Vaishnavism and Shaivite Nath acharas started in conflict with established brahminism, and the brahminism which Gurbani corrects and chastises as "Hinduism" isn't even the same use of the term today which includes Vaishnavism itself. Nonetheless, modernly the term Hinduism includes these varying sects and for very good reason, they all conform to Sruti with different variations of interpretation. Gurbani does this also.

Brahmin literature, perhaps you mean Brahman Upanishads? Surely you realize there are Shiva Sutras as well? The earlier name for Shiva is Rudra, and Rudra is one of the principal deities recognizable in artifacts from Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro. So to try to make Shiva out as invalid and non-Hindu deity is rather far-fetched.

I don't really get what you're trying to get at by saying Shiva was never a Hindu (people of the land of Indus Valley) deity by calling as Dakshina Murthy. Lol. Remember not to interpret Hinduism according to Abrahamic viewpoint which degrades individual deities into competing personalities, or false sub-deities jostling for Supremacy with the One True God.

Rather see this whole philosophy as human minds grasping the Magnificence of the Divine One in many individual aspects which are related, in the form of superimpositions. Shiva is in fact another form of the nirgun Oneness. Gurbani says Shiva and Shakti are the union of consciousness and matter in all beings. So how can Shiva NOT belong to Vedanta?

The Shri Rudram Chamakam (Sanskrit श्रि रुद्रम् चमकम्) is a Vedic stotra dedicated to Rudra (an early epithet for the Hindu god Shiva). Shri Rudram is also known as Sri Rudraprasna, Śatarudrīya, and Rudradhyaya. The text is important in Vedantic religion describing Lord Shiva as the Universal Brahman. The hymn is an early example of enumerating the names of a deity, a tradition developed extensively in the sahasranama literature of Hinduism. By the first few centuries CE, the recitation of the Śatarudrīya is claimed, in the Jābala Upanishad, to lead to immortality. The hymn is referred to in the Shiva Purana.
Shri Rudram Chamakam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dakshinamurthy or Jnana Dakshinamurti(Sanskrit: दक्षिणामूर्ति ((Dakṣiṇāmūrti)) is an aspect of Shiva as a guru (teacher) of all type of knowledge, particularly the jnana. This aspect of Shiva is his personification as the supreme or the ultimate awareness, understanding and knowledge. This form represents Shiva in his aspect as a teacher of yoga, music, and wisdom, and giving exposition on the shastras. He is worshipped as the god of wisdom, complete and rewarding meditation.

Dakshinamurti literally means 'one who is facing south (dakṣiṇa)' in Sanskrit. South is the direction of Death, hence change....
Dakshinamurthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lord Shiva as Dakshinamurthy, the first Guru

Who is the real God of gods? In whom are all these existences established? By worshipping whom, can I please the Devas in whole?
Hearing these words, Sri Veda Vyasa replied thus:
Rudra is the embodiment of all Devas. All devas are merely different manifestations of Sri Rudra Himself. On the right side of Rudra, there is the sun, then the four-headed Brahma, and then three Agnis (fires). On the left side, there exist Sri Umadevi, and also Vishnu and Soma (moon).

Uma Herself is the form of Vishnu. Vishnu Himself is the form of the moon. Therefore, those who worship Lord Vishnu, worship Siva Himself. And those who worship Siva, worship Lord Vishnu in reality. Those who envy and hate Sri Rudra, are actually hating Sri Vishnu. Those who decry Lord Siva, decry Vishnu Himself.
Rudra is the generator of the seed. Vishnu is the embryo of the seed. Siva Himself is Brahma and Brahma Himself is Agni. Rudra is full of Brahma and Vishnu. The whole world is full of Agni and Soma. The masculine gender is Lord Siva. The feminine gender is Sri Bhavani Devi. ~Rudra Hridaya Upanishad

Rudra (Sanskrit: रुद्रः) is a Rigvedic god of the storm,[1] the wind, and the hunt. The name has been translated as "Roarer",[2][3][4] "Howler",[5] "Wild One", and "Terrible". Rudra is thought to be an early form of Shiva. [6] By the time that the Ramayana was written, the name Rudra is taken as a synonym for Shiva and the two names are used interchangeably...

The Sanskrit name Rudra is usually derived from the root rud- which means "to cry, howl." According to this etymology, the name Rudra has been translated as "the Roarer". An alternate etymology suggested by Prof. Pischel derives Rudra ("the Red, the Brilliant") from a lost root rud-, "to be red" or "to be ruddy", or according to Grassman, "to shine". Stella Kramrisch notes a different etymology connected with the adjectival form raudra, which means wild, of rudra nature, and translates the name Rudra as "the Wild One" or "the Fierce God". R. K. Sharma follows this alternate etymology and translates the name as "Terrible" in his glossary for the Shiva Sahasranama.

The adjective shiva in the sense of "propitious" or "kind" is applied to the name Rudra in Rig Veda 10.92.9. According to Gavin Flood, Shiva used as a name or title (Sanskrit śiva, "the kindly/auspicious one") occurs only in the late Vedic Katha Aranyaka. Axel Michaels says Rudra was called Shiva for the first time in the Śvetāśvatara Upanishad.
Rudra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since Rudra appears in the Vedas, the Shiva which derived from him surely belongs to the Hindu pantheon. I have no idea what sources cause you to think otherwise.

The Sanskrit word Shiva (Devanagari: शिव, śiva) is an adjective meaning kind, friendly, gracious, or auspicious. As a proper name it means "The Auspicious One", used as a euphemistic name for Rudra. In simple English transliteration it is written either as Shiva or Siva. Pronunciation is written in the International Phonetic Alphabet as IPA: [ɕivə]. The adjective śiva meaning "auspicious" is used as an attributive epithet not particularly of Rudra, but of several other Vedic deities. In the Rig Veda, Indra uses this word to describe himself several times. (2:20:3, 6:45:17, 8:93:3)

In Tamil, Shiva literally means "the supreme one". Adi Sankara in his interpretation of the name Shiva, the 27th and 600th name of Vishnu sahasranama interprets Shiva to mean either "The Pure One", the One who is not affected by three Gunas of Prakrti, Sattva, Rajas and Tamas or "the One who purifies everyone by the very utterance of His name." Swami Chinmayananda, in his translation of Vishnu sahasranama further elaborates on that verse: Shiva means the One who is eternally pure, or the One who can never have any contamination of the imperfection of Rajas and Tamas

The Sanskrit word śaiva means "relating to the god Shiva", and this term is the Sanskrit name both for one of the principal sects of Hinduism, and for a member of one of those sects. It is used as an adjective to characterize certain beliefs and practices, such as Shaivism.

The name Shiva, in one interpretation, is also said to have derived from the Dravidian word “Siva” meaning “to be red”. It is the equivalent of Rudra, “the red” RigVeda.
Shiva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note the trishul on figurine from Saraswati River basin?

Horned figure surrounded by bulls linked to Rudra from Harrapan artifact.


Raam isn't a Hindu avataar? Then why is he listed in Gurbani as one of the das avataara? He is as much an avataar as the other 9. Either you accept they are Hindu or not, but I doubt anyone will be persuaded by this line of commentary which is pure opinion and not citing a single credible source. This line of discussion is just like the games missionaries play to deliberately confuse without facts. If we can't accept what Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas say about themselves, then we have no respect for Hindu religion and just distort again to the worst and ludicrous extremes to serve a political argument.

The Srimad Bhagavata Purana is a chronicle of the various Avataras of Lord Vishnu. There are ten Avataras of Vishnu. The aim of every Avatara is to save the world from some great danger, to destroy the wicked and protect the virtuous. The ten Avataras are: Matsya (The Fish), Kurma (The Tortoise), Varaha (The Boar), Narasimha (The Man-Lion), Vamana (The Dwarf), Parasurama (Rama with the axe, the destroyer of the Kshatriya race), Ramachandra (the hero of the Ramayana—the son of Dasaratha, who destroyed Ravana), Sri Krishna, the teacher of the Gita, Buddha (the prince-ascetic, founder of Buddhism), and Kalki (the hero riding on a white horse, who is to come at the end of the Kali-Yuga).
The Puranas

Don't you think it's interesting that Gurbani has the same teachings about purpose of das avtaara as does the Vaishnava Purana Srimad Bhagavtam?

Bhagat Kabir Ji and Sheikh Farid Ji are revered by Sikhs because Guruji elevated their writings to Gurbani. They are not Sikhs simply because they did not live during time period of Guruji. What has this to do with the many references to Shiva and Raam in Hindu scriptures? That's like saying bhagat bani doesn't belong to Sikhism, even though it is in Gurbani. So what is the point, and please cite your sources. Or are you just making this up for diversion Namjap ji?

 

[spnadmin]

Respected forum members, respected forum visitors. This was the opening question that started the thread we are now reading. Sikhism: An Offshoot of Hinduism. The thread starter asks a question.

After being here on SPN and going through the opinions of various members on The God and the creation,Karma, Liberation and allied concepts of sikhism It is not wrong to say that sikhism is just an ultra modern form of Hinduism or Vedantism.

I do not have in depth knowledge of both the religions but to me it appears that both the religions are same there is superficial difference created for purpose.

Excluding the outer appearance of the sikhs they intrinsically are just the Hindus.There is no essential difference between a sikh and a Hindu. If any one has a different opinion one may post and I shall reply mostly from Geeta i.e. stated to be the conceptually summarized format of Vedas and Upnishdas and some other booklets published by the Leading publishers on Hinduism. I shall also have the liberty of quoting the opinion of the members of this forum from the various posts.

I am a sikh and have been trying to understand this as a different faith but fail to find any material difference between the two and do feel and understand as to why Indian Government has not classified it as a separate religion.


You will have to bear with my presentation and my English.

In my opinion, not always as humble as it should be, the answer is NO, Sikhism is not an offshoot of Hinduism. For one thing Hinduism at the time of Guru Nanak did not exist as an "ism." Historically Hindus - to both spiritual masters of various Vedantic traditions and to Muslim and British overlords were anyone, who was not Muslim, who lived east of the Indus River in an area loosely termed "Hindustan." And therefore, in the Bani of Guru Nanak, founder of the Sikh faith, "Hindus" referred in particular to those non Muslims who were of the Brahman caste. Sikhism the religion or belief system then, logically, cannot be an offshoot of a demographic group or of a social caste. Even today, though Hinduism is described as the world's 3rd largest religion, there are those "hindus" who would prefer to describe their religious beliefs using more descriptive language.

Where does all the thread's exploration of history and philosophy leave those who are students of religion (but not Sikhs)? Where does all this conversation leave those who are new to Sikhism (and eagerly yearn for a deeper understanding of their chosen faith)? Where does all this leave young Gursikhs who also want answers to their questions? Was the question answered for them?

I want to take a different approach in the following post, to answer my own questions in a different way.

 

[spnadmin]

Let's look at the question, Is Sikhism an Offshoot of Hinduism, from the perspective of a Muslim from the time of Nanak. This may be a crazy approach, but maybe I can make my conclusion clear a different way. This passage is from Chapter I of The Sikh Religion by Macauliffe. It is the first literary work in which Sikhism is described as a distinct and unique religion.

The Sikh Religion - Volume I


After three days the Guru came forth from the forest. The people thought he had been drowned in the neighbouring river; and how had he returned to life? He then went home, and gave all that he had to the poor. A great crowd assembled, and Nawab Daulat Khan, the Governor, also came. He inquired what had happened to Nanak, but received no reply. Understanding, however, that the Guru's acts were the result of his abandonment of this world, the Governor felt sad, said it was a great pity, and went home.

It was the general belief at this time that Nanak was, possessed with an evil spirit, and a Mulla or Muhammadan priest was summoned to exorcise it. The Mulla began to write an amulet to hang round Nanak's neck. While the Mulla was writing Nanak uttered the following:--

When the field is spoiled where is the harvest heap?
Cursed are the lives of those who write God's name and sell it.

The Mulla, paying no attention to Nanak's serious objurgation, continued the ceremony of exorcism and finally addressed the supposed evil spirit, 'Who art thou?' The following reply issued from Nanak's mouth:--

Some say poor Nanak is a sprite, some say that he is a demon,
Others again that he is a man.

Those who were present then concluded that Nanak was not possessed, but had become insane.
On hearing this Nanak ordered Mardana to play the rebeck and continued the stanza:--

Simpleton Nanak hath become mad upon the Lord.[1]
And knoweth none other than God.
When one is mad with the fear of God,
And recognizeth none other than the one God,
He is known as mad when he doeth this one thing--
When he obeyeth the Master's order--in what else is there wisdom?
When man loveth the Lord and deemeth himself worthless,
And the rest of the world good, he is called mad.[2]

After this, Guru Nanak donned a religious costume and associated constantly with religious men. He remained silent for one day, and the next he uttered the pregnant announcement, 'There is no Hindu and no Musalman.' The Sikhs interpret this to mean generally that both Hindus and Muhammadans had forgotten the precepts of their religions. On a complaint made by the Nawab's Qazi, or expounder of Muhammadan law, the Guru was summoned before Daulat Khan to give an explanation of his words. He refused to go, saying, 'What have I to do with your Khan?' The Guru was again called a madman. His mind was full of his mission, and whenever he spoke be merely said, 'There is no Hindu and no Musalman.' The Qazi was not slow to make another representation to the Governor on the impropriety of Nanak's utterance. Upon this the Governor sent for him. A footman went and told the Guru that the Governor had requested him to come to him. Then Guru Nanak stood up and went to the Governor. The Governor addressed him, 'Nanak, it is my misfortune that such an officer as thou should have become a faqir.' The Governor then seated him beside him, and directed his Qazi to ask, now that Nanak was in conversational mood, the meaning of his utterance. The Qazi became thoughtful, and smiled. He then asked Nanak, 'What hath happened to thee, that thou sayest there is no Hindu and no Musalman?

The Guru, not being engaged in controversy with Hindus at the time, gave no answer to the first part of the question. In explanation of his statement that there was no Musalman he uttered the following:--

To be[1] a Musalman is difficult; if one be really so, then one may be called a Musalman.
Let one first love the religion of saints,[2] and put aside pride and pelf[3] as the file removeth rust.
Let him accept the religion of his pilots, and dismiss anxiety regarding death or life;[4]
Let him heartily obey the will of God, worship the Creator, and efface himself--
When he is kind to all men, then Nanak, shall he be indeed a Musalman.[5]

The Qazi then put further questions to the Guru. The Guru called on Mardana to play the rebeck, and sang to it the following replies and instructions adapted for Muhammadans:--

Make kindness thy mosque, sincerity thy prayer-carpet, what is just and lawful thy Quran,
Modesty thy circumcision, civility thy fasting, so shalt thou be a Musalman;
Make right conduct thy Kaaba,[6] truth thy spiritual guide, good works thy creed and thy prayer,
The will of God thy rosary, and God will preserve thine honour, O Nanak


Nanak, let others' goods[1] be to thee as swine to the Musalman and kine to the Hindu;[2]
Hindu and Musalman spiritual teachers will go bail for thee if thou eat not carrion.[3]
Thou shalt not go to heaven by lip service; it is by the practice of truth thou shalt be delivered.
Unlawful food will not become lawful by putting spices[4] therein.
Nanak, from false words only falsehood can be obtained.
There are five prayers, five times for prayer, and five names for them[5]--
The first should be truth, the second what is right, the third charity in God's name,
The fourth good intentions, the fifth the praise and glory of God.
If thou make good works the creed thou repeatest, thou shalt be a Musalman.
They who are false, O Nanak, shall only obtain what is altogether false.

The Qazi became astonished at being thus lectured. Prayers had become to him a matter of idle lip-repetition of Arabic texts, while his mind was occupied with his worldly affairs.

It was now the time for afternoon prayer. The whole company, including Nanak, went to the mosque. Up rose the Qazi and began the service. The Guru looked towards him and laughed in his face. When prayer was over, the Qazi complained to the Nawab of Nanak's conduct. The Guru said he had laughed because the Qazi's prayer was not accepted of God. The Qazi asked Nanak to state the reason for his conclusion. The Guru replied that immediately before prayer the Qazi had unloosed a new-born filly. While he ostensibly performed divine service, he remembered there was a well in the enclosure, and his mind was filled with apprehension lest the filly should fall into it. His heart was therefore not in his devotions. The Guru informed the Nawab also that while he was pretending to pray, he was thinking of purchasing horses in Kabul. Both admitted the truth of the Guru's statements, said he was favoured of God, and fell at his feet. The Guru then uttered the following:--

He is a Musalman who effaceth himself,
Who maketh truth and contentment his holy creed,
Who neither toucheth what is standing, nor eateth what hath fallen--
Such a Musalman shall go to Paradise.

The whole company of Musalmans at the capital--the descendants of the Prophet, the tribe of shaikhs,[l] the qazi, the muftis,[2] and the Nawab himself, were all amazed at Nanak's words. The Muhammadans then asked the Guru to tell them of the power and authority of his God, and how salvation could be obtained. Upon this the Guru addressed them as follows:--

At God's gate there dwell thousands of Muhammads, thousands of Brahmas, of Vishnus, and of Shivs;[3]
Thousands upon thousands of exalted Rams,[4] thousands of spiritual guides, thousands of religious garbs;
Thousands upon thousands of celibates, true men, and Sanyasis;[1]
Thousands upon thousands of Gorakhs,[2] thousands upon thousands of superiors of Jogis;
Thousands upon thousands of men sitting in attitudes of contemplation, gurus, and their disciples who make supplications;
Thousands upon thousands of goddesses and gods, thousands of demons;
Thousands upon thousands of Muhammadan priests, prophets, spiritual leaders, thousands upon thousands of qazis, mullas, and shaikhs--
None of them obtaineth peace of mind without the instruction of the true guru.
How many hundreds of thousands of sidhs[3] and strivers,[4] yea, countless and endless!
All are impure without meditating on the word of the true guru.
There is one Lord over all spiritual lords, the Creator whose name is true.
Nanak, His worth cannot be ascertained; He is endless and incalculable.[5]

It is said that Daulat Khan, the Musalman ruler, on hearing this sublime hymn, fell at Guru Nanak's feet. The people admitted that God was speaking through Nanak's mouth, and that it was useless to catechize him further. The Nawab, in an outburst of affectionate admiration, offered him a sacrifice of his authority and estate. Nanak, however, was in no need of temporal possessions, and went again into the society of religious men. They too offered him their homage, and averred that he was desirous of the truth and abode in its performance. Nanak replied:--

My beloved, this body, first steeped in the base of worldliness,[1] hath taken the dye of avarice.
My beloved, such robe[2] pleaseth not my Spouse; How can woman thus dressed go to His couch?
I am a sacrifice, O Benign One, I am a sacrifice unto Thee.
I am a sacrifice unto those who repeat Thy name.
Unto those who repeat Thy name I am ever a sacrifice.
Were this body, my beloved friends, to become a dyer's vat, the Name to be put into it as madder,
And the Lord the Dyer to dye therewith, such colour had never been seen.
O my beloved, the Bridegroom is with those whose robes are thus dyed.
Nanak's prayer is that he may obtain the dust of such persons' feet.
God Himself it is who decketh, it is He who dyeth, it is He who looketh with the eye of favour.
Nanak, if the bride be pleasing to the Bridegroom, he will enjoy her of his own accord.[3]

Upon this the faqirs kissed the Guru's feet, the Governor also came, and all the people, both Hindu and Musalman, attended to salute and take final leave of him. The story continues.

 

[spnadmin]

Some thoughts, sangat ji!

First of all who was Macauliffe? Was he a legitimate candidate to write about Sikhism?

A little about him; Michael MacAuliffe, also known as Max Arthur Macauliffe was a senior British administrator, prolific scholar and author. Macauliffe is renowned for his translation into English of Sikh scripture and history. The translations you read below are by Macauliffe. MacAuliffe entered the Indian Civil Service in 1862, and arrived in the Punjab in February 1864. He was appointed Deputy Commissioner of the Punjab in 1882, and a Divisional Judge in 1884. He retired from the Indian Civil Service in 1893. MacAuliffe wrote the definitive English translation of the Sacred Book of the Sikh religion, the Guru Granth Sahib. He also wrote The Sikh Religion: its Gurus, Sacred Writings and Authors (six volumes, Oxford University Press, 1909). He was assisted in his works by Pratap Singh Giani, a Sikh scholar. Macauliffe went on to convert to Sikhism in the 1860s and was even derided by his British employers for having "turned a Sikh"His personal assistant remarked in his memoirs that on his death bed, Macauliffe could be heard reciting the Sikh morning prayer, Japji, ten minutes before passing away.

I have copied this from Max Arthur Macauliffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can read more at this link. My point in introducing the biography of Macauliffe is only to stress, that he, the Sikh scholars who assisted him, and the British administrators who ridiculed him, thought of Sikhism as a unique religion and something completely distinguishable from "Hinduism" as long ago as the mid 19th Century.

Macauliffe "converted" to Sikhism. It is doubtful that he would have been moved to be a convert if he were uncertain of his choice. He must have known that he was making a clear and deliberate choice to be a Sikh -- as opposed to a follower of one or another Vedantic panth.

Macauliffe wrote:

I BRING from the East what is practically an unknown religion. The Sikhs are distinguished throughout the world as a great military people, but there is little known even to professional scholars regarding their religion. I have often been asked by educated persons in countries which I have visited, and even in India itself, what the Sikh religion was, and whether the Sikhs were Hindus, idolaters or Muhammadans. This ignorance is the result of the difficulty of the Indian dialects in which their sacred writings are contained.