Promoting JHATKA

[kds1980]

Do not bend rules of Sikhism to suit you.

Its better if you study sikhism and then teach it to others.I advise you to have one on debate with bhai Vijaydeep singh on this subject as he has great knowledge of sikh scripture's and practical knowledge too.Both these things are very important

 

[pk70]

( quote Kds 1980) Its better if you study Sikhism and then teach it to others......."

Kds1980 Ji,
With due respect, may I ask you a question? how do you know bade-ustaad haven't studied Sikhism? I am a little baffled to see your questioning about some one's knowledge.

 

[kds1980]

( quote Kds 1980) Its better if you study Sikhism and then teach it to others......."

Kds1980 Ji,
With due respect, may I ask you a question? how do you know bade-ustaad haven't studied Sikhism? I am a little baffled to see your questioning about some one's knowledge.

PK 70 ji

With due respect too I want to also tell you that I am also frustrated by the people who again and again blame meat eating sikhs as Bending rules of sikhism.While majority of sikhs who studied sikhism unbiasedly know that meat was Never an issue in sikhism.
I gently requested him to put his inputs in the thread "fools who wrangle over flesh"
As many people has written on that thread about their opinion and knowledge which they have.Even Raj khalsa requested him that this thread is not about meat Eating.But he is not interested in all these things.

Just tell me One Thing why every time there is thread on jhatka then vegetarians sikhs jump in preaching their vegetarianism.I have hardly seen meat eating sikhs jumping in threads which promote vegetarianism.

It is well known fact that khalsa sikhs hunted and ate meat.Rehat maryada also does not prohibit jhatka

Infact 1n 1980 there was a hukamnama that amritdhari's too can eat jhatka meat.

Then on what basis fanatic vegetarian sikhs blame that meat eating sikhs are bending rule of sikhism?

 

[pk70]

Just tell me One Thing why every time there is thread on jhatka then vegetarians sikhs jump in preaching their vegetarianism.I have hardly seen meat eating sikhs jumping in threads which promote vegetarianism.(quote kds1980 Ji)

Kds1980 ji
I understand what do you mean; however, let me share with you the same experience with non vegetarians. On this very thread, amarsanghera ji and I just tried to do something with the picture that shows a violent action due to the consideration of small children. Neither amarsanghera ji nor I wrote a single word against meat eating or Jhatka. As you read already, I do believe, many of the non vegitarians started bringing down all kinds of examples which should have brought in only if some one was apossing meat. No one was apposing that but they kept throughing irrelevent stuff to the end. A simple request got turned into sour arguments. If you dont mind, let me say that, even being in frustration, still we should avoid any harshness on any one as possible as we can.( as It is applicable to me too) Thanks.

 

[spnadmin]

... let me say that, even being in frustration, still we should avoid any harshness on any one as possible as we can.( as It is applicable to me too) Thanks.

Pk70 ji has said this better than I can. So I am quoting him.

Forum members a warning to avoid negativity and to avoid judging the spiritual status of individual participants in this debate. The debate is about jhatka. As such it is hard to separate jhatka from a debate on eating meat/not eating meat. But it is not impossible. Try to be relevant and not judgemental. Any further statements that shame individual members rather than add information and understanding to the conversation are subject to immediate deletion.

Thank youl.

 

[Randip Singh]

Firstly this discussion is about Jhatka. If you have nothing to say about the topic I suggest you DO NOT post here, DO NOT turn this into a meat vege debate. I will reply to your post once and any further posts turning this into a meat vege debate will be deleted.

SINGH SOORMEIN Chadde Shikaar, Makhi Gheri Wich Bazaar

Mari Nahi par Langdi Keeni, SINGH SOORMEIN bahduri Kinni

You do not have a monopoly on Sikhism so please stop emotional blackmail.

Killing defenceless animals is COWARDICE and not Bravery. Killing another human in a battle is a different psychology and mindset, to killing defenceless animals as they do not strike back. How can killing animals for practice as suggested by some scholars be taken as an alternative to whom you will be facing in a battleground. In the battlefield ones opponent is equally intelligent and equipped as the other. This thought is absurd as used by some ignorant scholars.

You have scientific and factual evidence to prove this?

Is killing a defenceless plant that cannot even make a noise or run away bravery?

Such acts/thoughts constitute degradation of ones Consciousness. Mercilessness is a sure sign of demotion of life to the Vicious Animal Kingdom and a spiritually punishable act. It is well known that meat eating animals are merciless. They are under their Hukam to kill eat and sleep. According to gurbani …………. Feel free to join them. In the last moments of ones life when one dies with such a conscience/desire, he will take birth in the animal kingdom and be subjected to the same treatment. The choice is yours. Gurbani emphasizes this point time and again.

Please stop this emotional blackmail. You have no evidence for this.

Gurbani does not emphasise this point.

Killing is contrary to the teachings of Our Gurus. Raise your consciousness and awareness if you can.

No evidence for this. Please back up with facts.

Ritual Slaughter is forbidden as God needs not appeasing as the killer and being killed are one and the same. Ritual slaughter is forbidden by our Gurus, because such acts are undertaken in the pretence to appease God. Jhatka on the other hand and on the same lines is to appease oneself. How can one method of killing be acceptable and other not.

Jhatka means one blow. It is NOT ritual slaughter.

Islam flourished among the Nomads in the Middle East. Each tribe followed the rituals of their own tribe to kill animals. Islam, in order to unify the system under one umbrella devised this tactic and enforced their view that all killings will be done only in the name of Allah.

Evidence of this and how is this relevant to the topic?

Hindus on the other hand were more conscious. The sacred text they recite implies to the fact that “O Lord we are fully aware of what we are doing and we take full responsibility for our actions. We stand fully accountable for our acts. In the future should this animal need our sacrifice we will willingly oblige”. This is an indication of a higher state of consciousness. Incidentally, Hindu way of sacrifice is Jhatka.

Your point is?

It appears that those illiterate nomads were either too smart or too dumb to follow their Prophet. In either case they were unified on one stance. Comparatively Sikhs of today are too dumb to understand their Gurus message. Guru tells them “Do not eat Halaal” as it is done to appease god. Instead of understanding Gurus reasoning they dig an alternative path. You kill to satisfy your own urges, it is your own Karmas. As you sow, so shall you reap is the message of our Gurus. Do not be misled. Do not let anyone fool you. Bear in mind that the promoters of such acts are themselves vegetarians and are digging a deep pit for others. They preach different to what they themselves practice. They are Demons is Disguise. They are your worst enemies.

Keep it civil. Please stop the emotional blackmail. You have no evidence.

Plants too have a life but carries a lesser punishment and is compensated by Naam Simran. The example of the sugarcane is to show the simple minded that even if you are as humble and sweet as a sugarcane in your actions and karmas, because you have not done Naam Simran. Like the sugarcane you will still be subjected to the fate similar to that of the sugarcane. Some simple minded scholars take the literal sense. Guru is emphasizing here the importance of Naam Simran and using the context of humbleness and sweetness of the sugarcane. Some ignorant due to their agyaanta use it to demonstrate the plight of the plant in comparison to killing of animals.

Diatribe and no evidence. Please supply quotes that killing a plant is less harmful in Karma in Sikhi? This is Vaishnav mat.

We are all humans and yet we are different. This is due to the level of our Consciousness. Those with elevated consciousness become Bhagats, Sadhus and Saints and leave this realm. Others will bounce up and down like a yoyo hopping up and down in lower lives and consciousness.

What is your point in this discussion?

Bhagat Sadhna, who ran a family business of a butchery gave up his business in the pursuit of Naam. The effect of Naam Simran is such that Sadhna from being a Butcher, after being made to realise that his actions were incorrect he became a Bhagat and is honoured in SGGS. I wonder why Naam Simran has no effect on those so called Sikhs that seem to promote / mislead others into a ditch.

Evidence please that Sadhna gave up butchery please?

 

[Randip Singh]

All meat vege debates are to be conducted here.

http://www.sikhism.us/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Do not derails topics please!

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

It does not matter who you are. You too are part of the creation. As per your Karmas your Vichaar shall be done.

ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥Asaʼnkẖ mūrakẖ anḏẖ gẖor.
Countless fools, blinded by ignorance.
ਅਸੰਖ ਚੋਰ ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ ॥ Asaʼnkẖ cẖor harāmkẖor.
Countless thieves and embezzlers.
ਅਸੰਖ ਅਮਰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜੋਰ ॥Asaʼnkẖ amar kar jāhi jor.
Countless impose their will by force.
ਅਸੰਖ ਗਲਵਢ ਹਤਿਆ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥Asaʼnkẖ galvadẖ haṯi*ā kamāhi.
Countless cut-throats and ruthless killers.
ਅਸੰਖ ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥Asaʼnkẖ pāpī pāp kar jāhi.
Countless sinners who keep on sinning.
ਅਸੰਖ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥Asaʼnkẖ kūṛi*ār kūṛė firāhi.
Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies.
ਅਸੰਖ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਲੁ ਭਖਿ ਖਾਹਿ ॥Asaʼnkẖ malėcẖẖ mal bẖakẖ kẖāhi.
Countless wretches, eating filth as their ration.
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥Asaʼnkẖ ninḏak sir karahi bẖār.
Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads. ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥Nānak nīcẖ kahai vīcẖār.
Nanak describes the state of the lowly.
ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥vāri*ā na jāvā ėk vār.
I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You.
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai sā*ī bẖalī kār.
Whatever pleases You is the only good done,

ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੮॥Ŧū saḏā salāmaṯ nirankār. ||18||
You, Eternal and Formless One. ||18||
This is not my problem but of the individual that needs growing up. Your lack of understanding of Gurmat is not my problem and Gurmat is categorically not any part of Shara of Islaam. This is your misconception.

Try to understand Gurbani and put you mind at rest.

I need not read "here is a 43 page discussion on Meat issue with inputs from many people.If you have any arguement then put it in that discussion after reading the discussion"

Common sense and Gurus Blessings are my guide and not comments of
ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥Asaʼnkẖ mūrakẖ anḏẖ gẖor.
Countless fools, blinded by ignorance.
There are many who are like minded and may share your views. These are your worldly views and i have not intension to cart rubbish along with me. If it fits your palette you live by it.

ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai sā*ī bẖalī kār.
Whatever pleases You is the only good done,

ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੮॥Ŧū saḏā salāmaṯ nirankār. ||18||
You, Eternal and Formless One. ||18||

All what God wants happen and that is good. Jattism trys to highjack Sikhism without knowing the God.


Coming back to Jhataka.Das once hear some persons talking to beat the butcher who was having the Gurbani autido cassattes.

Das is also of the opinions that as it happens in Nihung Chhavanis,we could have teaching clasess for Jhataka in the Sikh Missionary collages.Or say some special schools for that.More input on this is needed.

 

[bade_ustaad]

Mindless Post Deleted

 

[bade_ustaad]

Insulting Post Deleted

 

[BhagatSingh]

Are you soooo dumb. Clearly you do not understand anything at all. What a waste of life. It shall be pointless to respond to you. Go seek the company of a Sadhu/Saint and educate youself.

Insult deleted

 

[Sinister]

these posts are ridiculous...not really worth the effort to respond to a troll and feed them undue attention

But, I will:

the last thing we need in this world is people of supposed "higher consciousness" telling people of supposed "lower consciouness" how to live their lives and what to do....its called facism

cheers

 

[Randip Singh]

Please refrain from trading insults with Bade Ustad. The Mod team will deal with him.

Do not lower yourself to this level.

Thanks

 

[kds1980]

Here is some anti sikh literature for you bade ustaad
Sardar Banda Singh Bahadur
Guru Gobind Singh went to his hermitage. Madhodas was away. The Guru ordered his disciples to kill a few goats of the Bairagi and cook meat there and then. The matter was reported to Bairagi.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Here is some anti sikh literature for you bade ustaad
Sardar Banda Singh Bahadur
Guru Gobind Singh went to his hermitage. Madhodas was away. The Guru ordered his disciples to kill a few goats of the Bairagi and cook meat there and then. The matter was reported to Bairagi.

Take down his post!!!!! :inca:VERY INSULTING!!!! :shifty:

:ice:

 

[Archived_Member_19]

:wink:

Vijaydeep ji

once again you hear a lot of people doing a lot of things.

I have no idea what you want to prove

 

[Archived_member7]

I really dont understand how to explain..with all due respect bade ustaadji..or anyone else who is offended ..pls understand ..this is not for vegeterianism...

i will repeat myself...till the 5th PAATSHAAHI we would have been strict vegeterians however after Bir Ras was influenced during the 6thPaatshaahi...we could not remain strict vegeterians..

Kds ji i understand how u feel....sometimes i feel discussions here create unnecessary brawls ..some people want to take this discussion to some utopian bibilical concept of 'Thou shall not kill "

Catching words ..showing someone down..seems to be the motto.. either done in a smart manner or crude manner ..

I have not much to say ..except that ..i dont think this discussion can enlighten anyone ..but yes it will surely create differences...i dont think people want to accept existance of others who can be different ..these r the people who can re write sikh history ..

anyways best of luck to all of you....Vijaydeepji can we have some more inputs from Shri Dasam Granth ji ...

 

[BhagatSingh]

I really dont understand how to explain..with all due respect bade ustaadji..or anyone else who is offended ..pls understand ..this is not for vegeterianism...

i will repeat myself...till the 5th PAATSHAAHI we would have been strict vegeterians however after Bir Ras was influenced during the 6thPaatshaahi...we could not remain strict vegeterians..

Didn't Guru Nanak cook meat in kurukshetra on the day of the eclipse?

 

[Archived_member7]

Bhai Bhagat singhji you could be right..i think i have once come across some text mentioning Pritham Paatshaah Guru Nanak Devji Maharaj eating deer meat..i dont know if this was the same incident ..

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

It is destined for the Trash Can. The post (previouisly #154 has been deleted).

Participants on this thread, please note: I am now moving any post on this thread that is about vegetarianism per se to the Fools Who Wrangle Thread. Sometimes it is hard to determine whether that is where a particular post should go because the dividing line is thin. if you think I made a wrong call, just let me know and I will review my decision.

Please continue the discussion on Jhatka knowing that we are encouraging debate and not abuse. Sat Sri Akaal.

Antonia