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Meditation On God's Help

rosethorne

SPNer
Aug 13, 2005
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New Delhi
Dear Gursikhs, I really don't know about Baba Nand Singh ji, May he had the Darshan of Waheguru or not. But surely He divided sikhs by giving his points of meditation. Waheguru can be achieved but with pure heart, pure deeds. and this is purely on Akal's selection only, that who willbe the person or persons to achieve that. No debates here can lead us to Sachkhand. Only a true devotee can achieve it. No body who can argue but not understanding other's views cann't achieve it. No brain, no logics no money, not even any material is able to find Waheguru. Find the truth in yourself with the kirpa of SGGSJI maharaj, only the way to achieve Sachkhand.



shs isAwxpw lK hoih q iek n clY nwil ] ikv sicAwrw
hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]



WJKK WJKF










 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
rosethorne said:
Dear Gursikhs, I really don't know about Baba Nand Singh ji, May he had the Darshan of Waheguru or not. But surely He divided sikhs by giving his points of meditation. Waheguru can be achieved but with pure heart, pure deeds. and this is purely on Akal's selection only, that who willbe the person or persons to achieve that. No debates here can lead us to Sachkhand. Only a true devotee can achieve it. No body who can argue but not understanding other's views cann't achieve it. No brain, no logics no money, not even any material is able to find Waheguru. Find the truth in yourself with the kirpa of SGGSJI maharaj, only the way to achieve Sachkhand.





shs isAwxpw lK hoih q iek n clY nwil ] ikv sicAwrw
hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]



WJKK WJKF















Respected RosethorneJi,

You are right about the fact that no debate is going to take anybody to Sachkhand.

Contemplation of Bani with others is also necessary and fruitful, especially for the ignorant. Otherwise some body can be misled big time by some wrong translators.


About Mahapurakhs, no comments.
 

snavneet

SPNer
Aug 11, 2004
41
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45
Mumbai
Sat Sri Akaal Ji. :wah:

In short, here are my comments on this topic. If somebody takes interest then maybe we can discuss further.

il_sikh: I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God.
snavneet: There is no way of meditating on God directly. Godliness is a state that we realize if our meditation is complete and acceptable to God. At the beginning of our spiritual journey, we don't know God at all! Then, how can we meditate on God? Hence, in the beginning we meditate on something that reminds us of God. We may meditate on the Naam, on the Guru, on our breath, etc. The purpose of meditation is to first help us to realize the essence of God within us (Self-realization) and then to realize the same essence in everything else too (God-realization). Meditation ultimately leads us to Samadhi. Samadhi is a state of complete relaxation. In this state, the mind ceases control and what prevails is pure consciousness in full awareness. A state of Union with God, with the whole of existence. Meditation begins with great effort, gradually becomes effortless and ends in effortlessness. It begins with concentration and focus, and ends in the deepest form of relaxation, peace and bliss. In God, we find rest for eternity. Everything that we "do" requires effort and everything that God wills, happens effortlessly. In Union with God, we become like God. Hence, meditation begins with effort and ends in a state of effortlessness.

il_sikh: But I'm just wondering how is that actually done? Is it like other eastern faiths (like Buddhism, Jainism), sitting and reciting Waheguru over and over, or is there more to it? How do we, as Sikhs, meditate on God? I realise being conciously aware of what you're doing, being calm, etc. is required. But what else?
snavneet: At the shallow end of meditation, you will find many ways and techniques. At the deeper end, you will find that all forms of meditation practiced by people from different spiritual backgrounds, are essentially the same. In Sikhism, the most accepted way to meditate is Sumiran, which involves recitation (Jaap) of the Naam. The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. Three stages of Jaap are usually identified. One is Oral Jaap, where one may recite any name given to God. It could be Waheguru, Ram, Allah, etc. Oral Jaap helps to pacify the minds processes. As long as our minds control our lives, we cannot reach the state of egolessness, which precedes Union with God. Our minds are the walls that separate us from God. We have to become masters of our minds. Gurbani says, "Man Jeetai Jag Jeet", we have to win over our minds and we will come out winners in life, the whole of existence would be our reward! Oral Jaap is followed by Mindful Jaap. In this stage, the mind co-operates a lot more than in the first one. The Jaap is no longer Oral, but it becomes subtler. The mind does the Jaap. Most of the grosser distractions of the mind vanish when one matures in this stage. The third stage is that of Ajapaa Jaap and this is a gift from the Guru. Here there is no effort put in by the meditator, but yet one hears the Jaap taking place within oneself. One realizes that it had always been there, but was veiled by the processes of the mind. One realizes that this Unstruck Melody of the Ajapaa Jaap pervades the whole of Creation. The Ajapaa Jaap puts us in a state of infinite bliss. This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God. This is the Sat Naam that Gurbani points to. This stage comes to us as Gur-Parsaad, a gift from the Guru, once our effort has matured to its peak, once we are just ripe enough to be plucked by God Himself!

Dear il_sikh ji, we may discuss this in more detail if you wish. Simply put, meditation is a technique that helps us to put our true self (soul) in the driver's seat of our lives. Once this happens, God's Will (Hukam) dawns upon us in its perfect resplendence. Then our minds are no longer in control. We live by God's Will alone.

In this thread, i have seen the sangat debating on the idea of one-pointedness of the mind while practicing meditation et al. Here are my views.
The idea of one-pointed devotion towards the realization of God Union has been mentioned many times in Gurbani, in many different ways. Instead of quoting many lines from Gurbani and mixing up everything, we should take it up, one line at a time, and try to reach a consensus.

For example, take this stanza from Ang 295 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

Guru Arjan Dev Ji tells us,
"Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet,
Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet."

Simply put, it means,
"Praise the Lord, o saints, o friends,
Beware, do it with one-pointed consciousness."

This same line was taken up and explained beautifully by the late Gyaani Maskeen Singh Ji to elucidate the idea of one-pointed devotion.
Now, anyone who would want to argue about the etymology of the last 3 words in that stanza would try to find new meanings for the words "Ekaagar" and "Cheet". But i am sure, that the meaning cannot be twisted enough to mean anything else. "Ekaagar" definitely means "bringing together into one", "integrating into one", "uniting into a functioning whole", "desegregating", "assembling into one", "fitting together into one" and one can go on and on! But in simple language, it can be termed as 'one-pointedness'. And "Cheet" simply means consciousness. Our mind is the splitting up of our consciousness. So, on the one hand we might be singing praises of God and on the other hand we could be thinking of our business, our family, etc. So, our focus is never on one act or one thought. The Cheet is broken up into a countless pieces. Guruji tells us to put some effort in atleast bringing it together while singing the praises of the Lord. Since ordinary waking consciousness is totally consumed by the mind, which splits the 'Cheet' into many pieces, Guruji warns us (Saavdhaan) to bring together the wandering fragments of our mind and devote them totally to one act, which is that of praising the Lord.

I hope this helps a bit! :)
 

Archived_member2

Archived
Jul 18, 2004
766
3
Germany
Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Thanks for the good post.
All songs praising God are melodious but recognizing HIM is the happening and a great blessing.

The explanation given is "The third stage is that of Ajapaa Jaap and this is a gift from the Guru."
May I ask why this third stage is the gift of the Guru?

It continued further "This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God."
Please explain. Is only this Ajapaa Jaap the True Name of God? Where is the place of the Guru during the Ajapaa Jaap?

This explanation is pleasant "Simply put, meditation is a technique that helps us to put our true self (soul) in the driver's seat of our lives. Once this happens, God's Will (Hukam) dawns upon us in its perfect resplendence. Then our minds are no longer in control."
I have a question. Is mind not within God's Hukum before one comes to know a technique of meditation? Please continue this Satsang.

You referred the wonderful Vaak from Guru Arjan Dev Ji from the Sukhmani Sahib.
"Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet,
Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-16

One may appreciate reaching this state of 'Ekaagar Cheet.' True 'Ustat' of Prabh becomes possible.
Some may ask. How does it work? The answer is in the next great Vaak from Gurdev.

"sukhmanee sahj gobind gun naam."
The spontaneous jewel of joy is Gobind's virtuous Naam.

Not once the Gurus have suggested starting with the technique of one-pointedness to discipline the mind.

Ekaagar Cheet is the result of True Simran. Simran is the gift from God through the Guru right from the first stage.

A thirsty person from the first sip recognizes the virtue of water, not from its third sip.


Balbir Singh
 

snavneet

SPNer
Aug 11, 2004
41
0
45
Mumbai
Sat Sri Akaal Ji. :wah:

I will try to be as simple and concise as possible.

snavneet: "The third stage is that of Ajapaa Jaap and this is a gift from the Guru."
Balbir Ji: May I ask why this third stage is the gift of the Guru?

snavneet: Ajapaa Jaap is the sound of Om that resonates throughout existence, within us and without also. Guruji says, "Ek Omkar Satnam". Simply put, it means, "Om is One, it resonates forever, it is the true Name of God". This is where Japji Sahib begins. Once we are fit to hear it, the "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Ek Omkar" requires no effort from the meditator. Once we are ready, we hear it. But the Guru decides whether we are ready or not. A Satguru is someone who lives completely by God's Will (Hukam), so it doesn't matter whether we say that 'it is a gift from the Guru' or 'a gift from God', since the Guru will bestow the blessing of the 'Anhad Dhun of Ek Omkar' only if God wills it. God's will and the Satguru's will are one and the same. Now, let's get closer to your question. Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress. This is made clear by Bhai Gurdaas Ji when He tells us the following: "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA aagey hoe laet hai". And this is such a simple and profound statement! You make effort towards your Guru which may be equal to taking 'one step' and He will take '10 million steps' towards you. So, some effort is definitely required from our side, even if it is as small as taking 'one step'. Real progress is made when the Guru takes '10 million steps' towards us. So, our effort may be miniscule, but real progress is made when the Guru comes closer to us. Our role is only to that effect, the role of 'Udham'. At every stage, we make progress only because the Guru finds our tiny bit of effort to be worthwhile. That's the reason why getting salvation without a Satguru may take us ages to realize and very rarely is someone born who is ready to take up this toughest of missions. Imagine how much time it would take for us to reach the door of salvation, if the Guru didn't bring it so close to us with each step. Hence, the importance of a Guru. Anyway, there comes a point in one's spiritual evolution where one reaches 'the door', beyond which one can find salvation. But at that point, we cannot force the door to open for us, how much ever effort we may put in. In fact we have to be infinitely patient at that time. The opening of the door is entirely in the hands of the Guru. Hence, our entry through the door is entirely left to the Guru's judgment. If the Satguru finds us ready for entry, He bestows the blessing upon us so that we may enter. It is entirely left to His discretion. So, in all the previous stages, some of our tiny effort, 'to walk towards the door', may have been involved, but at the final stage, we cannot make any more effort from our side. Guru's Will (Hukam) is entirely responsible for the opening of the door. This door is the Dasvaan Dwaar (Tenth Door) that Gurbani speaks of. Hence, i mentioned that the third stage comes as a gift from the Guru. Balbir ji, i hope i have been able to make it clear for you this time.

snavneet: "This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God."
Balbir Ji: Please explain. Is only this Ajapaa Jaap the True Name of God? Where is the place of the Guru during the Ajapaa Jaap?

snavneet: I think i have already answered this above, but i will add something to what i said before. Guruji says, "Ek Omkar Satnam", which means that, "Om is One, it resonates forever, it is the true Name of God". The word "Satnam" means the "True Name". The word "Ek" before Omkar tells us that there is only "One" true name. The "kar" after "Om" indicates that it resonates forever. And what is that "one true name that resonates forever"? It is "Om". Guruji has already answered your first question in the first 3 words of His Baani. If you don't believe me yet then i request you to meditate on it until the meaning dawns upon you because there is no way to justify this with words. Let it come out of your own experience and then nobody will have to convince you about it. Now, to the other question. The place of the Guru during the Ajapaa Jaap is in God! To be more precise, the Guru is already One with God, He is always in God. How could His place ever change? Once you reach that finality, you will be one with God and Guru too. I think this answers your second question.

snavneet: "Simply put, meditation is a technique that helps us to put our true self (soul) in the driver's seat of our lives. Once this happens, God's Will (Hukam) dawns upon us in its perfect resplendence. Then our minds are no longer in control."
Balbir Ji: I have a question. Is mind not within God's Hukum before one comes to know a technique of meditation? Please continue this Satsang.

snavneet: Everything is within God's Hukam all the time. Salvation is realizing this Hukam in its entirety. What can we add to God's Creation? Whatever we add is simply derived from His raw material. Nothing that we make is made by us. We just manipulate what is already given to us. Consider the principle of conservation of energy. It says that we cannot create or destroy energy. If we can't even do that, what can we do! Since whatever we do is within God's laws, within His system, everything is essentially within His Hukam. But, there is a big 'But' in between! And that 'But' is our mind, our ego, which makes us feel that we can do something apart from what God has already done. This is the root cause of our separation from God, this feeling that we can do something that is beyond God's Hukam. And the Hukam applies to meditation too. When we meditate, we practice it within His Creation using the resources that He has given us. What extra have we added to it? Nothing at all. We try to 'focus our minds', 'sing His praises', 'do Sumiran', 'do Keertan', 'do Paatth', etc. because that is possible within His Hukam. In fact, even the ones who have denied God and salvation entirely, cannot override His Hukam, even though they do not accept its existence. The tiny bit of free will that their drop of a soul can exhibit is spent in denying the Hukam, but their denial does not change the Truth. If i close my eyes and proclaim that the Sun doesn't exist then that won't have any effect on the truth of the Sun's existence. Now, such people just listen to their egos, that's why they are called Manmukhs. And those who are ready to follow what the Guru says are Gurmukhs. Basically, however corrupt one may become, one still cannot override the Hukam. We will always remain within the boundaries of the Hukam. Hence, one is always redeemable. God never loses His patience on us. We may wander for countless lives via our egoistic escapades, but some day our patience will run out and we will turn back and we will find that the Sun was always shining behind our backs.

Balbir ji: You referred the wonderful Vaak from Guru Arjan Dev Ji from the Sukhmani Sahib.
"Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet,
Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-16

One may appreciate reaching this state of 'Ekaagar Cheet.' True 'Ustat' of Prabh becomes possible.
Some may ask. How does it work? The answer is in the next great Vaak from Gurdev.

"sukhmanee sahj gobind gun naam."
The spontaneous jewel of joy is Gobind's virtuous Naam.

snavneet: You will have to try to understand something very basic over here. "Ekaagrata" refers to concentration. It refers to focus and one-pointedness. I am sure you agree to that. Your previous reply clearly indicates that you believe that one reaches this state of "Ekaagar Cheet" or "One-pointedness of the mind" through Sumiran and not before that, isn't it? Okay, tell me, in order to achieve anything worthwhile in life, doesn't one have to focus on some thought and then act accordingly? If you are not focused then how will you be able to achieve anything more than what your instinct makes you do? "Ekaagrata" has had a great role to play in whatever you have achieved as a person. The more focused you become on a task, the more is the probability of you becoming successful in achieving the desired result. Imagine where you would be now if you had not focused on your studies or so many other things for that matter. In fact, even instinct can just tell you what to do, in the end some bit of focus is needed from you in order to initiate and then complete the act. Instinct can inform you that your stomach is empty and that you need to eat food. But you may still choose not to eat. Even that needs focus! Because your instinct will keep pressing you for your body's need of food, but to suppress it you will have to focus on the act of suppression! In fact, eating food when one is hungry requires less focus than trying not to eat at that time! My point is that nothing can be achieved in life, without being focused, without being almost one-pointed. And, in this thread we are talking of 'realization of the truth', which is most profound. And you think that truth can be achieved without one-pointedness? Why will the Guru grant you salvation if your mind was thinking of money, family, fame, etc. while your lips were doing Sumiran? Do you think the Guru is counting your utterances of Waheguru to see when you cross some required threshold? Is He interested in numbers or in your devotion? What does it mean to be devoted to one's Guru? Doesn't it mean that one should remain focused on what the Guru says and act according to it? If you cannot be focused ("Ekaagrit") on your Guru's instructions, how will you follow your Guru? How then can you expect the Guru to grant you salvation? Should the Guru grant us salvation even if our minds are wandering the whole world while our lips are uttering "Waheguru" like a machine? In fact, if "Ekaagrata" is something that is achieved as a result of the simple act of Sumiran without one-pointedness then i think machines are better capable than us in doing Sumiran. In fact, computers can do Sumiran without getting distracted. But you know that machines can't realize God simply because they are not conscious, they are not aware! Machines are slaves. They have no choice. They work according to fixed laws. But you have a mind. You can choose between this and that. You can choose to do Keertan while thinking of your bank balance or you can choose to be focused only on the act of Keertan. Which one do you think is better? Isn't being focused on the act of Keertan better? Wouldn't that be more pleasing to the Guru? Wouldn't that make us more worthy of His blessings? This is what Guruji is trying to tell us in such simple language, but still we try to find ways to misunderstand. Guruji simply says, "My dears, when you are doing Sumiran, just make it a point to be focused on it, be devoted to that act, be one-pointed!". Guruji warns us by saying BEWARE (Saavdhaan), if you are not focused then you shall not receive the gift that Guruji mentions in the following couplet, out of which you mentioned only one line to draw your conclusions".

The next two lines from Guruji are as follows:
"Sukhmanee Sahaj Gobind Gunn Naam.
Jis Mann Basai So Hoat Nidhan."

It means,
"The singing of the praises of the Lord (Gobind Gunn) and His Naam are responsible for the Sahaj Avastha, which is the jewel of joy (Sukhmanee).
When the Naam abides in the mind, one becomes a treasure."

Over here, Guruji is pointing to the Sahaj Avastha. And in the following lines of the Ashtpadi (which are not mentioned here), Guruji elaborates on the treasures that such a person receives. What needs to be understood here, is the Sahaj Avastha. It is that state of existence in which the fragmented mind naturally ceases to exist. Our every act is guided by God's Will alone. One reaches a very peaceful state where effort is no longer required. It is a state of complete relaxation, but in complete awareness. No worries remain. All doubts vanish. This is a state beyond one-pointedness. One needed to be one-pointed when the mind was wandering. But now the mind is totally pacified. It only serves as an instrument as long as the realized soul inhabits the body. This is also called the state of no-mind. One ascends into permanent union with God, with His Creation. One realizes true freedom that can never be taken away. I can go on and on talking about this state, there is no end to it. But i hope i have succeeded in conveying the point. Simply put, "Ekaagrata" is needed when there is a mind that is split into many fragments, but when one reaches the Sahaj Avastha no effort is needed any longer. One reaches the simplest yet most profound state of existence. There is no mind left to be integrated. So, there is no need of one-pointedness once Sumiran has done its job. All that remains is Oneness, not one-pointedness. When you see the same ONE, within and without, whom will you point to?! You are that!

Balbir Ji: Not once the Gurus have suggested starting with the technique of one-pointedness to discipline the mind.

snavneet: In short, one-pointedness is not a technique to discipline the mind. Sumiran will do the job of disciplining the mind, of pacifying it and Guruji will bless us with its mastery. But one-pointedness is the least bit of devotion that a Guru expects from His Shishya. If you can't even try to remain focused and one-pointed in your devotion to the Guru then don't expect the Guru to bless you with salvation. And yes, the idea of one-pointed devotion appears many times in Gurbani, the only reason you feel otherwise is that you have understood the idea in the reverse order. Actually, i can provide many examples from Sikh history where one-pointed devotion has marked many great events. But, i will mention those only if the idea still hasn't gotten across to you.

Balbir Ji: Ekaagar Cheet is the result of True Simran. Simran is the gift from God through the Guru right from the first stage.

snavneet: Not exactly. "Ekaagar Cheet" in not the final result of True Sumiran. It is supposed to go along with Sumiran. Your focus helps in Sumiran and Sumiran helps in improving focus, so that you could do it better. "Ekaagar Cheet" and "Sumiran" fuel each other. Indeed as you advance, "Ekaagar Cheet" becomes more profound as a result, but there comes a point where "Ekaagar Cheet" is no longer required, when you have crossed over to the other shore. "Ekaagar Cheet" is like a boat that you used to reach the other shore, once you are there will you continue carrying the boat on your head? Would it be required once you have reached your final destination? "Ekaagar Cheet" plus "Sumiran" is capable of taking you to that final state of "effortlessness", where focus will no longer be required. The Guru expects you to try to do Sumiran with an unwavering mind, with an "Ekaagar Cheet", as well as you can, that's all. I think i have explained all this above. Anyway, if your Sumiran is True and is upto its fruition then the Guru will bless you with divine Union. Through this Union, your consciousness (Cheet) will become one with God, Guru and the whole of Creation. Then there shall be no 'other'. You will become the observer, the process of observation and the observed. There will be nothing left to focus upon because you will be in everything. You will become all there is. A finger can point at everything else but it cannot point at itself. If the finger becomes all there is then what will it point at? Where will you point your devotion? You will be in everything!

Balbir Ji: A thirsty person from the first sip recognizes the virtue of water, not from its third sip.

snavneet: Not exactly. A thirsty person will recognize the virtue of water even if there is no water around him. Then he will make maximum effort to find it. Once found, he will start drinking it and will feel more and more satisfied and ultimately will feel that all his thirst has been quenched and will no longer look for water. The process of looking for water requires focus and attention. If he is really thirsty then while looking for water if he sees a bag full of the most precious jewels, they will mean nothing to him. If his thirst is real then his search for water will be one-pointed. And he will keep looking for it unless he finds it. On similar lines, if we are really thirsty for salvation then our devotion will be one-pointed and if it is not then we will have to wait till our Vairaag (thirst) reaches a point where our entire focus rests on our target. Otherwise, even a little stone lying on the road will distract us. In the Mahabharata, do you think Arjun could have hit the eye of the fish with his arrow while looking at its reflection in the water, if the arrow of his mind was not one-pointed? And when the arrow hit the eye of the fish, was there any need to be one-pointed any longer? After the arrow hit its target, it would just have become a reason to celebrate. Do you think that once you unite with God you will need to be one-pointed on anything? What for? It would be the greatest reason for the most glorious jubilation! In God, you will find infinite peace, bliss, joy and ecstasy for eternity. One-pointedness will have no use for you any longer. It is required before the goal is achieved when you are trying to hit the eye of the fish!

I hope this really helps! :)
Bhul Chukk Dee Khima Mangdaa Haan.
 

21khalsa13

HRH
SPNer
Jan 16, 2005
83
18
on earth
One poitedness is all that matters
quote 'Surinder Cheema'


In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that). The peerless state of mind is the result of it, not the one-pointedness that matters all.
quote balbir singh


sat shri akaal

my love, respect and blessings to all.
I would like to add a few words. very humbly i feel as in terms of doctrine, experience and actualisation I am still onlt scratching the surface.
this topic is amazing and so real. the most useful discussion on this forum
thanks to everyone for their input as it has served to help put things in context at a deeper level for me. thank you sincerley.


regarding one pointedness - bhenji you are completely right it is the secret to success.
if you want to achieve anything in this world it needs this single minded approach.
pure focus with the whole mind in the direction of your dreams and that desire/vision will be manifest. so what ever is desired money, wealth, fame, family, lovers anything for you to suceed it will require single minded focus. so je raab phanna - single minded focus.

beyond this what is as important is SINGLE minded focus with the WHOLE MIND.
this is where what Bhaji balbir says is very important.
In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that).

opening the mind by a watchful sense - becoming the observer - what is seen, what is heard, what is felt, etc.. will lead us to - let people come to know God first

deepening experinece this with single minded focus to who is doing the seeing, the hearing , the feeling.
 

21khalsa13

HRH
SPNer
Jan 16, 2005
83
18
on earth
when doing gur mantra 'waheguru' with full atention - the mind is directed to look and appreciate the grace that god showers over us.

opening the mind - watching - focuing on gurmantra deeper mind becomes in awe of what is being observed, wow!! how do I see, understanding light and it's properities, waves vibrations wow!!
seeing the first aura from a person,a tree Wow!! seeing the connections in life - the unwritten script - the superstring WOW!! waheguru
listening to the sound, the unstruck melody, the shabd - understanding it's full implications
wow!! getting in tune with hukum WOW!! every realistaion WOW!! waheguru
understanding how we hear - sound waves etc WOW!!
really getting in touch with ourselves,
understanding where the source of the feelings are, how they help create our environment, our ambieince WOW! again understanding the vibrations, chemical reaction that cause us to feel - and changing those VIbrations from our mind we change the reality we experience WOW!! waheguru.
understanding that it's the guru's grace Waheguru
understanding this is the nature of the guru - WA he guru -
this can be only be experinced by observing, listening, feeling, tasting, smelling and then beyond the senses. the biij mantra helps from getting 'lost' when we are going beyond our senses.

understamnding the biij mantra
ekoankarsatnamm keeps our mind from creating new patterns (as it does this very quickly top remain in control)constantly driving us higher and deeper. provides constant upward momentum so that we don't get stuck in maya or even supernatural phenomenon, powers as we experience them or become aware of them.
it states clearly the source of all vibrations (nad - naam) is this primal vibration and it is with this we have single minded focus.
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Respected Sadhsangat Ji,

About the begining of the journey toward God:

God is there all the time and He is the closest One that we have(hwQ pY nyry). It is our mind that has created this separation with Him. So we are ever liberated, but just not aware of it. Because
imil mwieAw suriq gvweI.

To end this seperation we have to take the road of faith. So we can say that this journey (to God) starts with our commitment to our Faith. And then with Guru Kirpa-ggn dmwmw bwija.

And all the milestones, turns, and detours on this road are different for different people, based on how committed they are. Unshakable Faith; Self-surrender, Self-discipline; patience; Self-mastery; Intuitive Wisdom; Self-knowledge; Love of God; Longing for God; practice penance or austerities; Devotion; Love for His Creation; Meditation on Divine Name; Prayers; Control on ever-wandering mind i.e. One-pointededness(my favourite one)....., all are suggested by Guru Ji over and over again as these lead us to our real destination.


Mostly it is thought that there is some easy A.B.C..... for union with God, that is similar for everyone. It is a war that an aspirant has to fight inside. It cannot be the same for all.


This is the reason, realization of the Self cannot be gifted from one to another like sharing some empirical knowledge. It is a fight that one has to fight alone. It has to be realized by each individual for himself/herself with Guru Kirpa.
 

Archived_member2

Archived
Jul 18, 2004
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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

The list of preconditions from a preacher is never ending. He always enhances this list before a seeker has reached it.

The True Guru sings sgl mqWq kyvl hir nwm ]
"sagal mataaNt kayval har naam." SGGS Ang 296-4
All notions end alone by Hari Naam.

Strange is that preachers have never stopped adding new conditions in their lists.

And the True Gurus go on singing like Akhand Paath

khqu kbIru sunhu nr nrvY prhu eyk kI srnw ]
"kahat kabeer sunhu nar narvai parahu ayk kee sarnaa."

kyvl nwmu jphu ry pRwnI qb hI inhcY qrnw ]6]2]
"kayval naam japahu ray paraanee tab hee nihchai tarnaa. ||6||2|| SGGS Ang 1349-18
Only chant Naam O mortals then surely come across.


Balbir Singh
 

snavneet

SPNer
Aug 11, 2004
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Sat Sri Akaal Ji. :wah:

Here, i pour myself once again for you.

Balbir Ji: May I ask where the journey toward God begins? Is this the Naam-Jap or one-pointedness?

snavneet:
Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God because that moment would have been inspired by a moment which took place before it. Just like time always flows in one direction, which is forwards, similarly each one of us is always moving towards God at our own pace, learning our lessons on the way. We may lose our path and go astray, but the sorrow that eventually comes out of it, brings us back on track. Let me explain with a simple example. Suppose that one fine day, after experiencing all sorts of material pleasures, a very rich man realizes that fame and fortune cannot bring him true everlasting happiness. Out of his experience, he understands that everything is perishable, that nothing in this physical world lasts forever. Out of Vairaag he then decides to seek salvation in God. Someone might say that this is the point where his journey towards God begins. But, what if he hadn't earned himself all that fame and fortune and gone through the associated pleasures, would this 'moment of realization' have even come to him? How then can we be certain where his journey began? What i mean to say is that, even his becoming rich and then experiencing great boredom out of temporal pleasures was part of the divine plan, meant to inspire him, meant to give him that extra push that would accelerate him on his ongoing journey towards God-realization. If the push is great enough then one can escape the gravitic pull of Maya, otherwise one re-enters the cycle of life and death. But some day, that greatest of pushes will come, which will take one naturally and permanently away from Maya's slavery and towards true awakening.

Also, let me assure you that God-realization is not the end of the journey. God always remains unfathomable. If that wasn't the case then the enlightened ones wouldn't have called God an infinite ocean of consciousness and bliss. The journey in God never ends even after realization. We will always be journeying in God. But right now, we are un-enlightened. We are sleep-walking through Him. A major part of our consciousness is asleep, it is unconscious. While most of us continue to suffer in cycles of life and death, there are a few who put everything at stake and decide to realize God permanently, once-and-forever! Ultimately, we all will come to that realization, but the sooner the better because the world of infinite ecstasy awaits us post enlightenment. Many-a-times we refer to the enlightened ones as the awakened ones. They are called the awakened ones because they have become entirely conscious of their existence in God. No part of their being is unconscious. They are 100% awake and aware of God, in and around them. They start experiencing the infinite ocean of bliss with complete awareness. Remember one thing for sure, God-realization is not the end! It is the point where we come out of repetition, out of all cycles and enter into a realm where love, joy, peace and bliss are ever new and eternal. Simply put, we are all on a pilgrimage towards God-realization via God but the journey never began and will never end because God Himself has no beginning and no end!

Now, let us come to the second part of your question. I ask you, how can Naam-Jap be the beginning of your journey? Didn't someone inspire you to do Naam-Jap? Why not call that the beginning? Now, i can keep going backwards in your present life and then probably in your past lives and never reach the point where your journey began. Now, this moment when someone inspired you to do Naam-Jap depends on all the moments that came before it, even on your birth! What if you were born into a Buddhist family? You could be practicing Vipaasna instead of Naam-Jap or none at all. Maybe, even in a previous life, somebody inspired you to do Naam-Jap, but you got bored and abandoned it. So, would that moment from your previous life, when somebody inspired you to do Naam-Jap and you started doing it but abandoned it later, constitute the beginning of the journey? Think deeply about this and you will find out that you cannot single out any moment, day, year, life, etc. where your journey towards God-realization began.

And, what to speak of one-pointedness. By now you would have realized its importance yourself! We all have been in this cycle of birth and death, since God knows when! Why? What went wrong? Why didn't we realize God in the first birth itself? And i am sure, we would have crossed paths with many enlightened beings in at least some of those lives. Why did we not get enlightened then? Could it have been due to our lack of devotion? Our lack of one-pointedness? Maybe the enlightened ones tried their best, but we were so manmukh by nature that we never totally devoted ourselves to their teachings, never followed them in totality, with one-pointedness! It could have happened that way, right? Even in sikh history, you will come across many such manmukhs, who failed to obey the Gurus, even though they lived with them and listened to their Baani in person. Take, Guru Ramdaas Ji's eldest son Prithi Chand as an example. He lived with Guruji, served Him, served the Langar, listened to His sermons, did Naam-Jap, etc. but still he betrayed his father Guru Ramdaas Ji and his younger brother Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He clearly went against Guruji's instructions so many times. And Prithi Chand coveted the Gurgaddi for himself and made every possible attempt to take it away from Guru Arjan Dev Ji, who was the most deserving successor to Guru Ramdaas Ji. Even in the presence of His holiness Guru Ramdaas Ji, Prithi Chand failed to become a Gurmukh. Till the very last moment, he denied hiding the letters sent by Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Guru Ramdaas Ji, which Guruji had to finally locate using His universal clairvoyance! So, inspite of doing Naam-Jap, inspite of doing Keertan, inspite of listening to Sermons, inspite of doing Sewa, what did Prithi Chand lack? I am sure it is not too hard to figure out now. Prithi Chand's devotion to the Guru was incomplete, it was not "one-pointed". In a way, it was "two-pointed" or "many-pointed" because the part of Him that betrayed Guruji was the part of his ego, of his fragmented mind. His mind was split up into so many pieces, it was 'envying his younger brother', 'coveting the Gurgaddi', 'denying the Hukam of Guruji so many times' and what not! He lacked one-pointedness in his devotion to Guruji. And for the same reason, he lacked one-pointedness in doing 'Naam-Jap', 'Keertan' and 'Sewa'. Because even while doing Naam-Jap, he would be thinking of his next step to get closer to the Gurgaddi. That's why Guruji says in his Baani, "Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet", because He expects at least that much from us. He wants us to praise God but warns us to do it with a one-pointed mind, with complete devotion, otherwise we would not make any progress. If that was not the case then He would have changed the mind of Prithi Chand using His divine powers, but then that wouldn't be Self-realization, would it? And whatever is not Self-realized, is lost easily in a moment of faithlessness. I hope you got the point this time. Simply put, Sumiran without one-pointedness is of no use at all. If you can be one-pointed even for a few moments during your Sumiran, then your Sumiran will be fruitful and its fruit would make you even more one-pointed! It is like a chain reaction!

As a challenge, try Reading something while doing Sumiran orally. Go ahead, read the above paragraph and also recite "Waheguru" loudly, both at the same time! See, if you can do either of them in any fruitful way. I am absolutely sure that you will do justice to neither of these activities. You can be fair to either of them, only if you become one-pointed and commit to one act at a time. Please try this. You will know what i have been trying to explain for so long! And, via this challenge, your mind is becoming only "two-pointed", reading one thing and reciting another, imagine the usual situations in everyday life, where the mind runs away in countless directions, especially when one sits to do Sumiran!

Let me know if you are convinced about something! :)

Bhull Chukk Dee Khima Mangdaa Haan.
 

Archived_member2

Archived
Jul 18, 2004
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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Thanks for your efforts. I did not know that I might have to read a Veda because of my curiosity.

Quote >>>I hope you got the point this time. Simply put, Sumiran without one-pointedness is of no use at all. If you can be one-pointed even for a few moments during your Sumiran, then your Sumiran will be fruitful and its fruit would make you even more one-pointed! It is like a chain reaction! <<<

I hope I understood the extract of your explanation. According to this both, Simran and one-pointedness, are very important.

**************

Quote >>>As a challenge, try Reading something while doing Sumiran orally. Go ahead, read the above paragraph and also recite "Waheguru" loudly, both at the same time! See, if you can do either of them in any fruitful way. I am absolutely sure that you will do justice to neither of these activities. You can be fair to either of them, only if you become one-pointed and commit to one act at a time. Please try this. You will know what i have been trying to explain for so long! And, via this challenge, your mind is becoming only "two-pointed", reading one thing and reciting another, imagine the usual situations in everyday life, where the mind runs away in countless directions, especially when one sits to do Sumiran! <<<

In this last paragraph you challenged and stressed that Simran and anything else will result in two-pointedness of mind.

Is awareness of Simran and one-pointedness not leading to two-pointedness? Please explain.


Balbir Singh
 

snavneet

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Aug 11, 2004
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Sat Sri Akaal Ji. :wah:

Well, it is good to know that you have begun to appreciate the importance of one-pointedness! But i feel that you still haven't understood it entirely. So, i will try my best to elaborate further.

Balbir Ji: Is awareness of Simran and one-pointedness not leading to two-pointedness? Please explain.

snavneet:
You have asked that question because you think that 'awareness' and 'one-pointedness' are qualitatively different. One-pointedness is nothing but 'complete awareness'. As your awareness in Sumiran grows, you will experience glimpses of 'complete awareness' or 'one-pointedness'. As you continue further, a time may come when awareness of Sumiran permanently reaches its peak. At that time, you will be aware only of Sumiran and nothing else. You will be permanently one-pointed in the act. You will be focused on the tenth door. Beyond that God is the judge.

(Elaborating...)
On its own, "one-pointedness" can never be an act. You can't just be one-pointed. You have to be one-pointed about something. It has to go along with something. One-pointedness is being completely focused on an act. The act could be that of Sumiran or reading or dancing or singing or whatever! One-pointedness is same as total concentration. Now concentration can never exist by itself. One has to concentrate on something else. "One-pointedness" is putting all of one's "concentration" or "attention" or "Dhyaan" into some action. "Many-pointedness" means that Dhyaan or Concentration has become fragmented. In the challenge above, i asked you to 'read' one paragraph and simultaneously 'recite' Waheguru orally. I am sure you failed to do it, simply because your attention got split up into two. If your Dhyaan or focus was on 'reading' alone, you could have 'read' better. If your Dhyaan was on 'recitation' alone, you could have 'recited' better. Suppose that while doing Sumiran, you succeed in being entirely focused on the act of "Naam-Jap" alone and that no other thoughts distract you, in that case what state would you be in? You would be "one-pointed" in the act of "Sumiran", isn't it? Someone could say that your "concentration" or "focus" or "attention" or "dhyaan" was totally in the act of "Sumiran", isn't it?

You have used the phrase 'awareness of Simran' in your last post. What does 'awareness of Sumiran' mean? What does it mean to be aware of something? Sumiran is an act that you are trying to perform. What does it really mean to be aware of this act? It simply indicates as to 'how deeply focused' you are, on the act of Sumiran. And what if your focus was 100% on Sumiran? Wouldn't that constitute one-pointedness in Sumiran? One-pointedness is a special case of awareness. It is that case when awareness of the act is complete. That is what Jaap is all about. It is about becoming 'one-pointed' in the act. When that happens and is acceptable to the Guru then He bestows the blessing of the 'Ajapaa Jaap' on His disciple. Then one enters the Sahaj-Avastha, the state in which one becomes the master of one's mind. Focus or concentration are no longer needed because the wavering mind comes to a standstill and submits itself in service.

Hope this helps. :)
 

Archived_member2

Archived
Jul 18, 2004
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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

I found some time to go through your posts in this thread again. These posts have many controversies. Please clear them if possible.

Quotes from Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>At the beginning of our spiritual journey, we don't know God at all! Then, how can we meditate on God? Hence, in the beginning we meditate on something that reminds us of God . . . Meditation begins with great effort, gradually becomes effortless and ends in effortlessness . . . The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<

Quote from the controversial Post #32 dated 05-16-2006 >>>Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God. <<<

**************

Quote from post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>We may meditate on the Naam, on the Guru, on our breath, etc . . . Three stages of Jaap are usually identified. One is Oral Jaap, where one may recite any name given to God. It could be Waheguru, Ram, Allah, etc. <<<

It is strange that first and second stages of Jaap, from your explanation, are because of our efforts. I do not know if ego of any person can start Jap with his attempts.

Gurdev sings.

mn kI ibiD siqgur qy jwxY Anidnu lwgY sd hir isau iDAwnu ]
"man kee biDh satgur tay jaanai an-din laagai sad har si-o Dhi-aan." SGGS Ang 1259-19
Technique of (taming) mind is known by Sat Guru. Day and night it establishes meditation in Sad Hari.

Gurbani raises curiosity and answers this way.

kaunu ibiD qw kI khw krau ]
"ka-un biDh taa kee kahaa kara-o." SGGS Ang 1322-11
Which technique it is, says to do

..... khu nwnk nwm rsu pweIAY swDU crn gha
"kaho naanak naam ras paa-ee-ai saaDhoo charan gaha-o." SGGS Ang 1322-13
Says Nanak, we receive Naam Essence at Sadhu's Charan.

**************

Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God. This is the Sat Naam that Gurbani points to. This stage comes to us as Gur-Parsaad, a gift from the Guru, once our effort has matured to its peak, once we are just ripe enough to be plucked by God Himself! <<<

I feel it is only ego that gets matured to its peak if it is our effort, not the Ajapaa Jap.

**************

You referred Guru Arjan Dev Ji's wonderful Vaak "Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-15

In my view, 'Ustat' means praise. Praise and slandering are two opposite words belonging to this world. God's Ustat is done to achieve material worlds. Then God is the giver of all. This is why Gurdev sang about achieving Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis in this Pauri not Salvation.

Gurdev is not singing here "Prabh Ka Simran Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet."

Through Simran we reach the ultimate goal of human life, i.e., Mukti. Naturally Ustat of Prabh is done with attention, a one-pointedness chit to achieve all material things. This is a different story why people do Ustat of worldly bosses with one-pointedness on materials to achieve those.

**************

Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Ajapaa Jaap is the sound of Om that resonates throughout existence, within us and without also. <<<

Please provide one reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.

**************
Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Once we are fit to hear it, the "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Ek Omkar" requires no effort from the meditator. <<<

Why suddenly in Ajapaa Jaap, "Ek Omkar" replaces by the Om sound. Please explain.

**************

Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress. <<<

Please elaborate. Why ego could attempt, however tiny, when every bit of progress, we make, is a gift from God.

**************

You referred Bhai Gurdas Ji's words "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA aagey hoe laet hai."

Why one needs to search examples from others than the Gurus to support ego. Please provide one similar statement from the Gurus too?

Perhaps one can understand here why The Gurus did not offer Bhai Gurdas Ji Gurgaddi.

**************
Reading your views praising small efforts of ego is interesting and on the other hand in the same post this statement "The tiny bit of free will that their drop of a soul can exhibit is spent in denying the Hukam, but their denial does not change the Truth. If i close my eyes and proclaim that the Sun doesn't exist then that won't have any effect on the truth of the Sun's existence. Now, such people just listen to their egos, that's why they are called Manmukhs."

**************

This post is getting long. I am not used to write long letters. I may write more when God wants me. Please do not take it personally but as Satsang with all.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh
 

drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
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Dear friends

This post is getting long. I am not used to write long letters. I may write more when God wants me. Please do not take it personally but as Satsang with all


Very rightly mentioned as your disscusion might be helpinh many others like me . So please continue


Jatinder Singh.
 

Anoop

SPNer
Mar 12, 2006
153
14
London Uk
Sat sri akal everyone.

Referring to this topic, there are many things that can be said.

The thing is, before we can actually perform anything, we must have knowledge about it, and understanding. Dont just rush to things and say your going to read the gurbani etc. The thing is, we all do it obviously for many reasons, (personal reasons), and obviously we would have ego.

I would say that people have different levels of gods grace, that help them in life. The sikh gurus were different then anyone there is today in the world. Think about the time they had and how busy they were in thei life. Their was quitness in their life, life where people were confused, and for that, they were more in love with god, as they were to pure in heart. In today's world, we may not have time for being to pure, and we can not be like the sikh gurus. The sikh gurus became god, whereas we are on different levels. There are people in this world with different levels between them and god.

Pray to god the way you should be, in the heart and mind. Pray and become god the way you should be.

We all have the purest state...the soul, which is immortal. We are all from the origin of god. As long as we realise that there is the fearless all loving, omnipresent god, we have different ways to remember god which gets us going in life, or gets us to become who we should be.

So dont worry, the divine light is there and will forever be there. The creator, the lord is with everyone, we are all from god.

God is where we accept who we are. There are many ways to love god in different paths. Choose the path that is good for you. Sikhism was not created by the human gurus themself. It was all god. The gurus became and engaged into ''GOD''. The khalsa became god.

It could be hard for some people to read the holy books in sikhim or any other religion because they are not use to it, and they might be suitable for praying to god in a different way. We all have different levels, as long as we love the true one god, the one reality truth that is the guider, we can enjoy life and act accordingly.

Sikhism, khalsa was from god. God has many different people because there are different paths and levels that they have.

Before we act the way the sikh gurus acted, we must have knowledge about their background, and how they were pure. The physical life is filled with time, and social changes.

Follow the holy book if you are able to. If you should be then folllow it as long as its for the love of god. And do what is best for you, as long as you are beliving in the one ultimate god. Its up to you the way you pray to god. We are all one when it comes to god.
 

Anoop

SPNer
Mar 12, 2006
153
14
London Uk
meditation will guide people in the way they are more in love with god:

For example, a person who is likely to have more faith in god, would have fewer problems in meditating, whereas someone who is beginning to meditate to god, it may take more time, and it may take some other things such as music or something inspiring to enhance their belife and meditation.

Remember we all have and require different levels for the path of divinity.
 

snavneet

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Aug 11, 2004
41
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Sat Sri Akaal Ji. :wah:

Balbir Ji, please take a deep breath because this reply is really long, something that you are not used to!
I feel that in your last post you have misinterpreted Gurbani. So, i will jump straight to that part first and try my best to point out the shortcomings in your interpretation. After that i will get to all the other points that you have raised from my posts, which i assure you are not controversies at all!

Balbir Ji:
You referred Guru Arjan Dev Ji's wonderful Vaak "Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-15

In my view, 'Ustat' means praise. Praise and slandering are two opposite words belonging to this world. God's Ustat is done to achieve material worlds. Then God is the giver of all. This is why Gurdev sang about achieving Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis in this Pauri not Salvation.

Gurdev is not singing here "Prabh Ka Simran Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet."

Through Simran we reach the ultimate goal of human life, i.e., Mukti. Naturally Ustat of Prabh is done with attention, a one-pointedness chit to achieve all material things. This is a different story why people do Ustat of worldly bosses with one-pointedness on materials to achieve those.

snavneet:

Guruji's Baani that is under consideration is this:

"Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet,
Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet."

In the beginning you were of the view that 'Ekaagar Cheet' was a result of True Sumiran and that True Ustat was possible only after becoming 'Ekaagar Cheet'. At that time you were not ready to accept the importance of 'Ekaagar Cheet' during Sumiran. And you also had no issues with the word 'Ustat'. And in your latest post, God's Ustat has suddenly become something very ordinary for you. You say that people do Ustat to gain worldly things. If you read Gurbani attentively, you will find out that our Gurus and Bhagats have done Ustat of God all the time. So, were they doing it for worldly gain? So, if one praises the Lord out of true love for Him, is it to gain material wealth and powers? There are so many Bhagats who have realized God just by doing His Ustat, this is what 'Prem Bhagti' is all about. And how can you say that Sumiran leads to Mukti and Ustat leads to worldly gain only? I REQUEST YOU to carefully and attentively go through the lines following the above two lines in Guruji's Baani. In the same 'pad' Guruji also says the following, "Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan" which means that "Such a person does not fall into the cycle of birth and death any longer". Isn't that Mukti? 'Maya' becomes the 'daasi' (servant) of the one who is 'Mukt' and so Guruji also spoke of Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis becoming available to such a person. Apart from these, Guruji spoke of other attributes of a Mukt person in the same 'pad', but you seem to have ignored those.

Also, just like "Ustat" means praise and has an opposite called "Nindaa" or slander, similarly "Sumiran" also has an opposite. Sumiran is also a word of this world, it is bound to have an opposite. "Sumiran" or "Simran" comes from the Sanskrit word "Smaran", which means "remembrance". In our case, "Sumiran" is the remembrance of God or God's Naam. The opposite of "Smaran" is "Vismaran", which means "to forget". Forgetting God or His Naam is termed as "Vismaran".

Moreover, if people can do Ustat just for material gain then people can do Sumiran just for the same purpose too, isn't it? You say that 'Ustat' with 'Ekaagar Cheet' leads to material gain, but just doing 'Sumiran' leads to 'Mukti'. Yes, Sumiran is capable of leading one to Mukti but so is Ustat. It all depends on how deeply and truly involved a person is, in either or both of the acts.

But now, once again, you seem to want to do Sumiran without paying any attention to it, without any 'Ekaagar Cheet', even though you had accepted the importance of 'Ekaagar Cheet' going along with Sumiran in an earlier message. Why are you getting so confused? You want to do Sumiran without being focused on it? Okay. Try it. See what happens. Experience it for yourself. Like i said earlier, then there would be no difference between you and the Sumiran done by a parrot or even a machine because even a machine can repeat 'Waheguru' like that, without focusing on what it is doing. Is it really so hard to grasp?

NOW I SHALL REPLY TO YOUR OTHER QUERIES...

Balbir Ji: I found some time to go through your posts in this thread again. These posts have many controversies. Please clear them if possible.

snavneet:
Indeed, i will clear your doubts as many times as you raise them. I will not get tired because i like discussing spiritual matters. Maybe you will get tired of asking questions. In fact, i feel that i have answered many of your questions in detail in my previous posts. But i am ready to explain everything again and again, in new ways, till the ideas become clear to you.

You speak of 'many' controversies in my posts. Could it be that they appear to be controversies to you, but in reality they are not? Maybe a few more perusals of my posts by you and the controversies could disappear.

We live in a world of duality, in a world of polar opposites. Hence controversies exist because the mind sees two possibilities in everything. And, the unenlightened human mind keeps wavering between these polarities like a pendulum and as a result it remains in distress. So, the ones who have become enlightened try to show us the way. They try to help us find a balance in everything. They guide us to find the middle path. All true religions constitute an attempt to bring the mind at the exact centre of the two polarities. This is elucidated by Guruji when he says, "Khanihu Tikhi Vaalhu Nikee Aet Maarag Jaanaa" meaning that "The path that you have to tread is like the edge of a sword, it is thinner than a hair", indicating that one may easily fall towards either side, towards either polarity. And this falling on either side can happen with respect to Gurbani also, if one is not aware enough. For example, Guru Gobind Singh Ji says, "Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey", which means that "God is darkness and God is also the light of lights" or "Salutations to darkness and Salutations to the light of lights". So, is this a controversy? To me, it does not appear to be a controversy. But to a layman, this will appear controversial. The mind of a layman would think, 'Why is Guruji saluting darkness'? Such lay-people find many controversies in Gurbani based on their level of understanding. But that doesn't mean that Gurbani is at fault. The fault lies in the interpretation of Gurbani by these people. And such things happen when people expound Gurbani without living it.

Balbir Ji:
Quotes from Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>At the beginning of our spiritual journey, we don't know God at all! Then, how can we meditate on God? Hence, in the beginning we meditate on something that reminds us of God . . . Meditation begins with great effort, gradually becomes effortless and ends in effortlessness . . . The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<

Quote from the controversial Post #32 dated 05-16-2006 >>>Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God. <<<

snavneet:
I can assure you that there is no controversy in the above two statements from my posts. You call it a controversy because in one post i spoke of 'the beginning and the end of our spiritual journey' and in the other post i spoke of 'there being no beginning or end to this journey'. But during your observation, you have not considered the contexts in both the posts.

I will try my best to be simple and concise. Requesting your kind attention.

The 'beginnings' and 'ends' of journeys refer to finite things. A journey refers to traveling from one point to another, it could be in space or time or both. A human body can have a journey in space and time. For example, your body started its journey when you were born at some time and place and it will end its journey when you will die at some time and place. This example is from the grosser world. The mind, which is subtler, also has a journey, which is just in time, nevertheless it is a journey in the literal sense. A day will come when you will become 'no-mind', when you will become enlightened, that will be the end of the journey for the mind. This means that there has to be a day when you descended into the world of the mind. But what was there before you descended? In fact, 'what' descended into the world of the mind would constitute a better question? It was your soul. What will become awakened when you become no-mind? The soul. And through Gurbani, we know that the soul is a part of God. And if God has no beginning and no end in time then how can the soul have a beginning and an end in time? If God is beyond time then how can the soul be bound by time? We may talk of the journey of the mind but not the journey of the soul because the journey of the soul never began and will never end.

In my first post, in reply to il_sikh ji, i was speaking of the spiritual journey of the mind. He stated that salvation can be achieved by meditation on God. And i simply wanted to point out that the mind cannot know God and hence it cannot meditate 'on' God. Since the mind is finite, it has to focus on something finite to be able to meditate on it. And that is what i explained in the first post. Simply put, i was talking about the mind and with respect to the mind, there can be a journey, a beginning and an end.

In the other post, in reply to you, i said that 'we all have been on this journey since time immemorial'. Over here i was talking about the journey of the soul, which is a part ("ang") of God. And with respect to the soul, there really cannot be a journey in the literal sense because there is no start or end in this case.

Balbir Ji:
Quote from post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>We may meditate on the Naam, on the Guru, on our breath, etc . . . Three stages of Jaap are usually identified. One is Oral Jaap, where one may recite any name given to God. It could be Waheguru, Ram, Allah, etc. <<<

It is strange that first and second stages of Jaap, from your explanation, are because of our efforts. I do not know if ego of any person can start Jap with his attempts.

Gurdev sings.

mn kI ibiD siqgur qy jwxY Anidnu lwgY sd hir isau iDAwnu ]
"man kee biDh satgur tay jaanai an-din laagai sad har si-o Dhi-aan." SGGS Ang 1259-19
Technique of (taming) mind is known by Sat Guru. Day and night it establishes meditation in Sad Hari.

Gurbani raises curiosity and answers this way.

kaunu ibiD qw kI khw krau ]
"ka-un biDh taa kee kahaa kara-o." SGGS Ang 1322-11
Which technique it is, says to do

..... khu nwnk nwm rsu pweIAY swDU crn gha
"kaho naanak naam ras paa-ee-ai saaDhoo charan gaha-o." SGGS Ang 1322-13
Says Nanak, we receive Naam Essence at Sadhu's Charan.

snavneet:
So, you mean to say that the ego of a person and Jaap cannot co-exist? Anybody who starts Jaap, starts also with an ego. It never happens that the ego disppears as soon as the Guru asks us to do Jaap. One has to make some effort. Is it really so hard to grasp?? I knew someone in my family who used to do Jaap, day-in and day-out, but was very egoistic during day-to-day interactions. And you will find many such people in the world. They do not put in the required efforts and expect miracles to happen. Ego doesn't disappear with Jaap or during Jaap. In fact, many-a-times, people become egoistic about the act of doing Jaap! They start competing with others. I have known such people. This clearly indicates that there is something wrong with their efforts and not with Jaap. Ego disappears completely only when "Ajapaa Jaap" is heard. "Ajapaa Jaap" is a kind of confirmation from God, that now you are free of ego! The attempt at Jaap has to be genuine. The rest will be handled by the Guru.

Moreover, i never said that the first two stages of Jaap demand 100% effort from the meditator. I just said that one simply has to make the effort to sit and do Jaap with a one-pointed mind and if the effort is genuine then the Guru's blessings are automatically received. You must have heard the word "Udam"? It occurs many times in Gurbani in various contexts. It simply means "genuine/sincere effort". Consider these simple and straight-forward lines from Gurbani talking about the significance of Udam.

"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means,
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart."
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)

"Udam Karat Seetal Mann Bhaey."
which means,
"By putting in genuine efforts, the mind became calm and quiet."

Now, let's move to the 3 lines from Gurbani that you quoted.

The first line says that "The technique of taming the mind is known from the Satguru". Indeed, the technique is learnt from the Satguru. But somebody has got to practice the technique, isn't it? Who is going to do it? It has to be done. That's the only amount of effort the Guru expects you to put in. There are many in this world who know all the techniques but do not put them into practice, so they never realize the blessings of the Guru.

The second line says that "Which technique should i use (to realize God), what should i do"? Now, this is a genuine inquiry that comes to the mind of a truth seeker. If one is not fortunate enough to have the guidance of the Satguru then one may go astray. Indeed, the technique to realize God is received at the feet of the True Guru. But there have been many unfortunate ones, who inspite of being at the Guru's feet and inspite of receiving the technique failed to realize God, simply because they did not put the right effort and bring it into practice.

The third line says that "We receive the essence of the Naam at the feet of the holy". Indeed, we may receive the essence of the Naam at the feet of the realized One. But is that enough? Is nothing expected from your end? At the very least, do you not have to follow your Guru? Isn't following the Guru sincerely, also an Udam, a genuine effort?

I don't know why you quoted these lines because they do not contradict anything that i said before. These lines do not talk of the effort expected from the Sikh, they talk about the ways in which one may receive the right technique to put effort into.

Balbir ji:
Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God. This is the Sat Naam that Gurbani points to. This stage comes to us as Gur-Parsaad, a gift from the Guru, once our effort has matured to its peak, once we are just ripe enough to be plucked by God Himself! <<<

I feel it is only ego that gets matured to its peak if it is our effort, not the Ajapaa Jap.

snavneet:
Did i ever say that Ajapaa Jaap gets matured? Did i ever say that we hear Ajapaa Jaap right from our first attempt at Sumiran? Not even once. Then why even bring Ajapaa Jaap into context when you are asking about one's ego getting matured through effort?

Now let us talk about the maturing of one's effort during Naam-Jap. There comes a time when someone does Sumiran for the first time. Ego remains, it doesn't disappear immediately. Under the guidance of the Guru, as one progresses and becomes more involved in Sumiran, ego weakens more and more, until one day the last vestige of ego remains. Again with the guidance of the Guru, and with Udam of the Sikh, this last remaining amount of ego also disappears and one becomes Mukt of ego permanently. The Guru's role is that of guiding the Sikh at each step and preventing him from going astray or falling asleep. But the Guru will not carry the Sikh on the path, the Guru will never force the Sikh. The Sikh has to walk on his own, on the path shown by the Guru. What is so hard to understand in that? Simply put, the Guru guides and the Sikh follows. At least, that much effort is expected from the Sikh. But if the Sikh starts feeling that he is smarter than the Guru and does not need the Guru's guidance and leaves the Guru, only then does his ego mature. When i speak of effort, i am just appreciating the importance of sincere effort or 'Udam' from the devotee, which is the basic minimum as per Gurbani. If there is no 'Udam' then one cannot mature on the spiritual path. 'Udam' is just about facing the Guru all the time and not turning your back towards Him. Hence Gurbani speaks of Gurmukhs and Manmukhs. 'Gurmukh' is someone who remains facing towards the Guru, always ready to learn, and Manmukh is someone who turns the back towards the Guru. The Guru will never force you to turn around. He will just keep showering His wisdom on you, until you put that little bit of effort and turn away from your mind and turn towards your Guru. That little bit of effort, 'to remain focused on the Guru', is required.

I hope this clears it up for you.

Balbir Ji:
Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Ajapaa Jaap is the sound of Om that resonates throughout existence, within us and without also. <<<

Please provide one reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.

snavneet:
In Gurbani, you will not find a single line that says, "Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap". Gurbani is not teaching us mathematical equations. If you are looking for that kind of a reference then i am sorry i cannot provide one. But i can assure you that the references required to understand the above are available in Gurbani. But you will have to explore!
Moreover, i want to say some more very important things, which you will have to try to understand. So, i request your complete attention. Gurbani says that God is unfathomable, that God cannot be described, that one may keep on describing God but that process will never end. I hope you agree. And Gurbani itself is not excluded from this fact. Gurbani does not attempt to describe God completely because in that case Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji would be never ending, and that is not the case. Gurbani guides us so that God may be experienced by us. Gurbani makes us aware of facts that are capable of inspiring us, so that we could reach that stage where we may experience God ourselves. So, Gurbani is not an attempt at the complete description of God or His Creation because Gurbani itself declares that it is not possible to do so. But whatever Gurbani says is True because it comes out of the Self-Realization of many souls. But there are many things that Gurbani doesn't say directly. But that doesn't mean that they become false. Gurbani doesn't claim that truth starts and ends with Gurbani because then truth would become finite, God would become finite, God's Creation would become finite. But Gurbani can help us realize and experience the truth for ourselves. I am saying all this because you will keep asking for proofs for whatever i say, but there is no readymade proof of things that are existentially true. And i am not asking you to believe me either. I am requesting you to explore Gurbani as much as possible so that you may realize things on your own. And, i do have the right to state what i have understood, don't i? And i can definitely clarify things for you as much as they are clear for me.

'Omkar' is the 'Dhun' of 'Om' that is 'kar' (resonating) throughout the Creation and it is 'Ek' (one). It is the 'Anhad Dhun' and the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. It is 'Anhad' because nothing was struck to create this sound because in order to strike and generate a sound two objects are needed, one that you strike with and one that is struck. But this "Anhad Dhun" does not arise from duality, it comes from God, it is One, it is not produced due to friction between two objects. It is called 'Ajapaa' because after realization it is heard even though one may stop one's oral or mindful Jaap. And there appears to be no source of the 'Dhun' or 'Jaap'. The sound is just heard, at all times, at every place. Everything seems to be the source because God is in everything. One cannot single out any source of the sound. The qualities of "Ek Omkar" that Gurbani mentions match perfectly with the qualitites of "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Anhad Dhun" that Gurbani expounds. Gurbani will guide you to the above realization.

My friend, Gurbani has to be lived and realized. Even if i rationally prove something to you then that will not become true for you because truth is all about experience. The word Self-realization sums this up. Realize it for yourself and nobody will have to convince you. What i have understood from Gurbani is what i have written above. But that doesn't mean that you have to believe me blindly.

Balbir Ji: Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Once we are fit to hear it, the "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Ek Omkar" requires no effort from the meditator. <<<

Why suddenly in Ajapaa Jaap, "Ek Omkar" replaces by the Om sound. Please explain.

snavneet:
Although "Ek" goes along with "Omkar", it is not a part of "Omkar". It is just indicative that there is only "One" like the "Omkar", that there is no other.

Etymologically, based on Gurmukhi grammar, "Omkar" can be split up into "Om" and "kar", where "kar" means something that keeps repeating itself, such as in "Jaikar". In "Omkar", what is that which is repeating? It has to be "Om" because "kar" is attached to it. My point is that "Ek" and "kar" are describing the essential qualities of "Om", that there is only "One" like it and it "repeats forever". Hope this helps.

Balbir Ji:
Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress. <<<

Please elaborate. Why ego could attempt, however tiny, when every bit of progress, we make, is a gift from God.

snavneet:
I have explained this above. But, in short, i will explain it again.

Ego is something that leaves us gradually. It doesn't leave us on our first day of meditation itself. You must have done Jaap at some or the other time in the past. Are you egoless now? No. The reason is that you haven't reached that stage when the Guru may pull you out of it with your readiness and without using any force. I have been doing Jaap for quite some time and i can assure you that i have felt my ego diminish in the process. This, i speak out of my experience. But the ego is still there in me in subtler forms, but i am not giving up. I have full faith in the Guru. He is helping me to get ready, when i am ready he will pull me to the next level. My role is to just remain attentive and facing towards my Guru. That is my effort. And that is what i have been talking of. Paying full attention to the Guru is what a Sikh needs to do. Then he is a Gurmukh. As you remain facing to the Guru and be aware while listening to His guidance and then follow Him then your ego will diminish. But, atleast remain aware and facing to the Guru! That's the effort a Sikh needs to put in! That's the attempt of the ego, if you want to call it that! It is a tiny effort which makes us ready to receive the Guru's blessings.

Consider this example:
Suppose we all are buckets lying upside down in the rain.
The rain is always pouring on us but we are not facing it and hence not getting filled with its water.
The drops hitting us on the back are inspiring us to turn.
If we, the buckets, could just turn around and face the rain then it would fill us to the brim.
Similarly, if we just face the Guru and remain that way, we will eventually become full of His blessings to the brim! We will overflow with bliss! This just indicates that God's bliss is always pouring on us, we are just not accepting it.

I hope that sums it up for you!

You referred Bhai Gurdas Ji's words "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA aagey hoe laet hai."

Why one needs to search examples from others than the Gurus to support ego. Please provide one similar statement from the Gurus too?

Perhaps one can understand here why The Gurus did not offer Bhai Gurdas Ji Gurgaddi.

snavneet:
In short, let us recollect some history of Bhai Gurdaas Ji. Bhai Gurdaas Ji is one of the most respected personalities in Sikh history. He lived with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Gurus, and all of them praised Bhai Gurdaas Ji for his contributions to Sikh literature. He was nephew to Guru Amar Daas Ji, cousin of Guru Ram Daas Ji and maternal uncle of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He scribed the "Aad Granth Sahib Ji" under the guidance and dictation of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He helped in the settlement of Amritsar and construction of Sarovar at Harimandir Sahib Ji.

While writing the Bhagat Baani in "Aad Granth Sahib Ji", Bhai Gurdaas Ji was asked by Guru Arjan Dev Ji, if he wished to add any of his contributions to the Granth, to which Bhai Gurdaas Ji humbly declined, saying that a servant cannot be raised to sit at the level of the Guru. So, just by offering Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani a place in "Aad Granth Sahib Ji", Guru Arjan Dev Ji showed the kind of respect He had for Bhaiji and his baani. Later on in His life, Guru Arjan Dev Ji declared that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Baani could be used as a "Teeka" (simplified guide) for easy understanding of Gurbani from the "Aad Granth Sahib Ji". This is a blessing given by Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani, which means that the baani of Bhai Gurdaas Ji was also acceptable to Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Owing to this, Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani is sung at Sri Harmandir Sahib Ji and countless other Gurudwaaras. The above Shabad is very frequently heard during Keertan because it throws light on the relation between a Sikh and his Satguru. The Shabad has the seal of approval of Guru Arjan Dev Ji and yet you deny its validity? This is not right.

And please, this Shabad is not in support of ego, as in the case of Manmukhi nature of the human mind! It is in support of sincere efforts by the seeker in following the Guru and blessings from Guruji being received by the seeker as a result of it. Ego remains till the end, but you have the choice not to follow it. Ego will try to distract you right till the moment just before enlightenment. The mind is the subtlest form of ego, which separates you from the Guru. Hence Gurbani also talks of the death of the mind because only when the mind dies, does one Unite with God. A Gurmukh is someone who follows the Guru steadfastly. He uses the mind just as an instrument to perform according to the Guru's advice. He doesn't follow the mind, even though it is there, he uses the mind as per the Guru's instructions. Sort of like being a "sanyaasee" while also being a "grihastee".
I hope this clears things up for you.

Balbir Ji:
Reading your views praising small efforts of ego is interesting and on the other hand in the same post this statement "The tiny bit of free will that their drop of a soul can exhibit is spent in denying the Hukam, but their denial does not change the Truth. If i close my eyes and proclaim that the Sun doesn't exist then that won't have any effect on the truth of the Sun's existence. Now, such people just listen to their egos, that's why they are called Manmukhs."

snavneet:
Where have i "praised" the efforts of the ego!!? Please tell me one line in which i have "praised" it!
In the above line, through an analogy, i am talking about the grossest form of ego, due which one doesn't even believe in the Guru. The state of a Manmukh, who closes his eyes and says that the sun doesn't exist.

'Water' can quench one's thirst but it can also 'drown' the same person. So, is water good or bad?
Simply speaking, the mind of a Manmukh is his enemy but the same mind can become a Gurmukh under the guidance of the Guru. It has the potential of becoming a friend. The subtlest form of ego is simply the mind, the feeling of "I exist as a separate entity from the rest". Now, if someone remains facing towards this feeling then one eventually drowns in ego, but if one simply faces the Guru and follows Him then this mind (or subtlest ego) can also be used as an instrument.

A 'sword' can be used to carry out atrocities on innocent people and the same 'sword' can be used to protect the weak from evil! Doesn't this make things clear to you? The mind is a potential, like this sword. Under the guidance of the Guru, it can be made into a useful sword! The mind or the ego can be transformed into something useful, can be used as an instrument! I can go on and on!
Hope this much helps for now.

Balbir Ji:
This post is getting long. I am not used to write long letters. I may write more when God wants me. Please do not take it personally but as Satsang with all.

snavneet:
Indeed, this post is getting long, but this alone shouldn't stop you from replying. A seeker of truth has to be very patient and his patience has to evolve because at the tenth door, which is the door of salvation, infinite patience is required! You are not used to writing long letters and i am not even used to writing letters!

And yes, i am not taking anything personally. That would be giving my ego a chance to drag me back into oblivion. I am here to share what little i know and also to learn from others.

Finally, remember one important thing, that there is a subtle difference between 'curiosity' and 'inquiry'. 'Curiosity' seeks to improve upon 'knowledge' whereas 'inquiry' seeks to improve upon 'experience'.

Bhull Chukk Di Khima Mangdaa Haan. :)
 

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Thanks for sparing time and keeping the Satsang alive.

Quote >>>I feel that in your last post you have misinterpreted Gurbani. <<<
Perhaps you want to say that one understands Gurbani according to his conscious mind.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji's Vaaks are sB qy aUc pwey AsQwnu ]
"sabh tay ooch paa-ay asthaan."
He receives the highest place of all.

bhuir n hovY Awvn jwnu ]
"bahur na hovai aavan jaan." SGGS 295-18
That does not come and leave (vary).

God is not a place (asthaan). For God all places are equal. Only for human beings there are higher places or lower. One wants to reach highest place with God's Praise.
Gurdev says the person receives it by 'Ustat' and does not come and go from that place life long.

God would have never spoken such words through the Guru's if your interpretation is right.
ausqiq inMdw doaU iqAwgY KojY pdu inrbwnw ]
"ustat nindaa do-oo ti-aagai khojai pad nirbaanaa." SGGS 219-3
He renounces both praise and slandering seeking the state of Salvation.

Please ponder the wonderful truth through Guru Arjan Dev Ji's words.
ausqiq krih syvk muin kyqy qyrw AMqu n kqhU pweIAY ]
"ustat karahi sayvak mun kaytay tayraa ant na kathoo paa-ee-ai." SGGS Ang 528-15
So many servants and silent sages do Ustat. They do not reach your end.

Strange you say that they reach the state by Ustat (praise) and ask. "Isn't that Mukti?"

**************

In my experience, it is true that the awareness of Chit is the result of True Simran.

The statement "One-pointedness is all that matter" is not correct. I feel all know what one-pointedness is. Where do they stick up?

**************

Quote from your Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 is >>>The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<

Quote from your Post #39 dated 05-19-2006 is >>>We may talk of the journey of the mind but not the journey of the soul because the journey of the soul never began and will never end . . . For example, your body started its journey when you were born at some time and place and it will end its journey when you will die at some time and place. This example is from the grosser world. The mind, which is subtler, also has a journey, which is just in time, nevertheless it is a journey in the literal sense. A day will come when you will become 'no-mind', when you will become enlightened, that will be the end of the journey for the mind. <<<

Are Jaap and Ajapaa Jaap like mind that can begin and end?

Is God something different from Jaap of His Naam and Ajapaa Jaap? Please explain.

**************

Quote >>>So, you mean to say that the ego of a person and Jaap cannot co-exist? Anybody who starts Jaap, starts also with an ego. <<<

Yes. True Jaap cannot begin in presence of ego. Also, ego is never tiny.

**************

Quote >>>Moreover, i never said that the first two stages of Jaap demand 100% effort from the meditator. <<<


In my experience, most of the people in this world do not come to the wisdom of Jaap. Just because they are sure that nothing will work without their tiny ego. Jaap is 100% effort of God through the Guru right from the first step. Anything else what one has come to know in presence of ego is not true Jaap.

**************

Quote >>>You must have heard the word "Udam"? It occurs many times in Gurbani in various contexts. It simply means "genuine/sincere effort". <<<

This understanding is again a game of ego.

Please ponder these great Vaaks from the Gurus. Sangat does not need my explanation.

audm miq pRB AMqrjwmI ijau pRyry iqau krnw ]
"udam mat parabh antarjaamee ji-o parayray ti-o karnaa." SGGS Ang 798-19
Endeavor is the intelligence of all-knowing God. As HE inspires, does it.

Anidnu Andu BieAw mnu ibgisAw audm Bey imln kI Aws ]1]
"an-din anad bha-i-aa man bigsi-aa udam bha-ay milan kee aas." SGGS Ang 1295-5
Day and night, bliss is happing, mind forgot, endeavor happened and hope to meet.

Endeavor is a God's Act. It happens. It is not the faculty of tiny ego, as you have tried to explain in a long prose.

**************

Quote >>>Did i ever say that Ajapaa Jaap gets matured? <<<
What else this mean "The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap."

Did you want to say that the Jaap starts with the tiny ego but ends in ego-less Ajapaa Jaap?

It has never worked with anyone. It will never work with anyone.

**************

Quote >>>In Gurbani, you will not find a single line that says, "Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap". <<<

It is not the first time I have come across a person who wants to say something more than the Gurus say.

**************

Quote >>>Although "Ek" goes along with "Omkar", it is not a part of "Omkar". It is just indicative that there is only "One" like the "Omkar", that there is no other.

Etymologically, based on Gurmukhi grammar, "Omkar" can be split up into "Om" and "kar", where "kar" means something that keeps repeating itself, such as in "Jaikar". In "Omkar", what is that which is repeating? It has to be "Om" because "kar" is attached to it. My point is that "Ek" and "kar" are describing the essential qualities of "Om", that there is only "One" like it and it "repeats forever". <<<

I pray you come to experience what it all is. I hope you have kept some place free for truth.

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Quote >>>So, just by offering Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani a place in "Aad Granth Sahib Ji", Guru Arjan Dev Ji showed the kind of respect He had for Bhaiji and his baani. Later on in His life, Guru Arjan Dev Ji declared that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Baani could be used as a "Teeka" (simplified guide) for easy understanding of Gurbani from the "Aad Granth Sahib Ji". <<<

Please provide an authentic proof. I will be grateful.

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Quote >>>Where have i "praised" the efforts of the ego!!? Please tell me one line in which i have "praised" it! <<<

I hope I have not understood your writing "Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress."

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Quote >>>A 'sword' can be used to carry out atrocities on innocent people and the same 'sword' can be used to protect the weak from evil! <<<

Just imagine. WHO is protecting persons also carrying a sword?

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Knowing that you are not taking anything personally is pleasant.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh
 
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