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In Sikhism, Is There A Soul? Who Created The Soul? Who Controls The Soul?

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The thread is starting to look to me like a living laboratory of 5 thieves at work, in a thread about the soul. Strange!

Some thoughts. And they may fall on both sides of the fence as I am not convinced that any poster so far has taken the high ground.

1. Disagreement is not always hostility and without disagreement we can't know that there are other deeply held points of view.

2. Yes...in my own read of many threads of late, some opinions expressed can mislead, and are misleading representations of Sikhi, and they should be corrected in clear language.

3. That will be offensive to some, but to feel offended is not a sign of a TOS violation. Even the use of words like "garbage" is not clearly a violation of TOS.

4. Clear communication may be hard to take. To say "I was upset by your post" is clear communication, and imho effectively asking the other side to reflect on the impact of his/her words. That is positive not negative as I see it, because it does further a dialog.

5. The respect we owe to adherents of other faiths is necessary for learning to occur. That does not mean that we are duty bound to be agreeable when we disagree. That is asking everyone to tip toe around on broken glass, which is dishonest and even neurotic.

My recommendations: Go back to the thread topic and discuss it. Try to chose words carefully if we know that they will stoke an existing flame. Therefore, it is important to avoid giving offense. Then: Let's try to let some verbiage roll off our feathers. Some of us are always courteous in the extreme, others are courteous, but not in the extreme. It is a matter of personal style...we have all heard much worse in our offline lives. So, it is important not to take offense, or take everything to heart. I am asking for some proportionality in our reactions. So far no one has been called a heretic or accused of beadbi. Repeating: Let's talk about the thread topic. Thanks.
 

seeker3k

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If every one take the topic as topic and don’t take it personal attack. Then we can discus the topic to full extent. People take things too personally. It could be their faith not built on truth. What I mean they don’t understand their faith fully.
We should discuss the topic on hand not the person who wrote it. Accusing the writer that he/she is atheist of agnostic or of other religion is not productive. We should not mix orange with apples when we discuss the post
Giving reference of other religion is ok. But should not be emphasized too much. Sikhism is 500 year old it is about time we should take the responsibly of our own action. We should stop blaming other religion for what we are doing wrong. Self criticism is good way to fix the problem then accusing others
 

Ambarsaria

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Brothers and sisters let us check which section of the forum we are in,

Sikh Philosophy Network » Sikh Philosophy Network » Hard Talk »

Let us not act like "Hadwanas/Watermelons" but "Coconuts". Me included :sippingcoffeemunda:

Cannot take the heat, watch what you say! Think before you write as a core value in Sikhism.

My post was not addressed towards seekr3k or seeker9 or Sinner ji so let whoever else defend.

I take hard exceptions to such as in quoted by a learned Sikh veer,

We can keep in mind that food can be considered as supplementary source of enegy whereas Soul energy is the Real energy .Like Sun Energy is the Real Energy for vegitation but water,mannure etc are supplement for growth.
Where does this appear in Sikhism or Gurbani. Armchair Einestonian antics in the name of Sikhism.

We also learn that Soul can not be cut.destroyed by fire or drowned by water so such a thing can be eternal only.What transforms is the Jeev{Thought) in different forms and this JEEV(thought) along with Soul takes up a new journey untill merged with the infinite.
I complemented seeker3k ji for sourcing this to be from other religions presented as Sikhism in this thread.

Since Gurbani is complete and perfect lyric.
Naturally leads to wave theories! Gurbani visualizes creation to be in unison. Unison does not lead to waves. This leads to respect for the sound and not the meaning and idolatry as a further extension.

It is perhaps worthwhile to define in commonly understandable terms what soul is. For me personally,

"Soul is the little changing inner self that we grow within us. Sometimes we listen to it as inner voice, sometimes we see it as providing checks and balances on how we act out and most of the time this is what we spend most of out time with. Sometimes having agreement, sometimes acting regardless, sometimes being indifferent".
Any comments on the definition of soul!

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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In the Self
Veer Ji Quoted
'Soul is the little changing inner self that we grow within us. Sometimes we listen to it as inner voice, sometimes we see it as providing checks and balances on how we act out and most of the time this is what we spend most of out time with. Sometimes having agreement, sometimes acting regardless, sometimes being indifferent".Any comments on the definition of soul!'
Bagga Ji is just trying to express his feelings on Soul and deepening the discourse on Soul , I don't like Q.A. unless I ask the questions my way is rhyme,
I am that which makes all mine ,
I am that which stands on time,
I am that which is so sublime,
I am that which must be divine,
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Specific to the Topc,In Sikhism
Is there a Soul. ?

I Gurbani we can find the word ATMAA and this is reference for the Soul then Gurbani is not negating the existence of Soul.

Who created Soul?

All souls are created by Prabhu only.

Who Controls the Soul ?

All souls are controlled by Prabhu only.

The messages are in context of the topic not for offending any body.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your specific answers.

Some comments and if you may clarify,

Is there a Soul. ?

I Gurbani we can find the word ATMAA and this is reference for the Soul then Gurbani is not negating the existence of Soul.
Atmaa is also referred to or commonly understood as your inner self and English world "soul". Atmaa gives us a personality and our core qualities. We do not necessarily act on the basis of what our atmaa tells us or guides us. This is the basis of a proverb in Punjabi "Andron kush horr atey bahron kush horr" and translated (People with duality living where the inside and outside are not in synch.)

Who created Soul?

All souls are created by Prabhu only.
As part of our act of creation.

Who Controls the Soul ?

All souls are controlled by Prabhu only.
In my humble understanding it is the other way around that as we grow up and understand the creator our inner soul becomes more like a consonant soul in reference to rest of creation or not. Prabhu controls our souls as much as when we wake up when we set an alarm and brush in the morning.

Any comments welcome.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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AMBARSARIA Ji,
I myself have limited knowledge as with every one .I find myself incapable to present my views to your satisfaction and likings.You expect me to answer thaway you like which I dont know.
My only humble suggestion is try to get the understanding of reference meanings of three words GuR ,GuR with Aukad and GuR with Dulaikad Matra under the letter R .I assure you will get to know better than me.You are ,No doubt an intelligent person, so dont waste your intelligence in negatives .There is always something positive in everyones message in this forum. We should always look for that.
With thanks
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Harry Haller

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In my humble understanding it is the other way around that as we grow up and understand the creator our inner soul becomes more like a consonant soul in reference to rest of creation or not. Prabhu controls our souls as much as when we wake up when we set an alarm and brush in the morning. AMBERSARIAJI

All souls are controlled by Prabhu only. PRAKASHJI

If we were to theorize that the body is constantly demanding sensory pleasure, and the inner soul, the Guru inside you, is already in consonance, could it be that it is the body that becomes in consonance with creation, rather than the soul.

I have always felt that it is my body that is Manmukh, and my soul is already Gurmukh, and that is the battle, between body and soul.
 

Seeker9

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Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your specific answers.

Some comments and if you may clarify,


Atmaa is also referred to or commonly understood as your inner self and English world "soul". Atmaa gives us a personality and our core qualities. We do not necessarily act on the basis of what our atmaa tells us or guides us. This is the basis of a proverb in Punjabi "Andron kush horr atey bahron kush horr" and translated (People with duality living where the inside and outside are not in synch.)


As part of our act of creation.


In my humble understanding it is the other way around that as we grow up and understand the creator our inner soul becomes more like a consonant soul in reference to rest of creation or not. Prabhu controls our souls as much as when we wake up when we set an alarm and brush in the morning.

Any comments welcome.

Sat Sri Akal.


Dear Ambarsaria Ji

One thing I was uncertain about in your post was this bit:

Atmaa gives us a personality and our core qualities

I thought your life experiences were responsible for that? Although I guess there is the old "Nature or nurture" debate as well....

Also with regard to Atmaa, and it is a genuine question on my part, is their a Param-atmaa and what is the relationship between the two?

Thanks

 

Ambarsaria

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seeker9 ji thanks for your post.

One thing I was uncertain about in your post was this bit:Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset;" class="alt2"> Atmaa gives us a personality and our core qualities </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

I thought your life experiences were responsible for that? Although I guess there is the old "Nature or nurture" debate as well....
seeker9 you I am just sharing my life experiences and learning's as one goes along in time. I sometimes use proverb as they are a collective wisdom succinctly paraphrased,

Saying is "you cannot hide your inner-self. The lie detector test, etc., are all based on such. So your inner self as it builds over time is the entity I define as "soul". A child's soul is pure and it starts to take shape through interactions from the moment of birth. A child of love, a child of scorn, a child of sadness and so on impinge upon the child through various interactions. Inner self starts to build, wiring in the brain starts and we start to see visible elements of a soul. A calming smile, a heartful laugh, and so on. Taht becomes personality.
Also with regard to Atmaa, and it is a genuine question on my part, is their a Param-atmaa and what is the relationship between the two?
Also with regard to Atmaa, and it is a genuine question on my part, is their a Param-atmaa and what is the relationship between the two?
Param-atmaa is the creator's soul. We can look towards it and the qualities that are shown. Since creator has no need to act different than what the soul is, what you see is what you get.

So Sikhism allows us to recognize such and use it to our advantage. People say sometimes about someone, "He/she is God/Creator/Pamatmaa like". It stands for that many practical ways the person is a close example of much that is good in the Creator. Not a complete but practically in many ways.

One that still puzzles me but I believe it may get proven one day that the seeds of even the deepest parts of ourselves are based on genetics, the helix of life. I believe this also applies to the elements of soul that become full blown as we grow. So in a way if souls are genetically linked, then we have continuation in parts of souls from generation to generation. Not a complete re-incarnation or trans-migration (no one is a total ditto of someone else!) but changing but still connected from one to the other. Very fascinating area in itself.Hope the above makes sense.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Can someone describe what Soul is to me?

1.Is it a limb?

2. Is it an organ?

3. Is it some kind of circuit breaker that switches itself on and off with the help of Mann in our lifetime?

4. Is it the conductor of our inner orchestra which knows when our inner piano needs to be listened to and when the cymbals must leave a message?

What is IT?

It is very important to define what Soul is before we can discuss what it does or does not and where it goes after we become dust to dust, ashes to ashes?

Tejwant Singh
 

Ambarsaria

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Tejwant Singh ji I don't know if you read my attempt (perhaps very novice at that) in this thread and here it goes from the following post,

(http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/37159-sikhism-there-soul-who-created-soul-5.html#post154580)

"Soul is the little changing inner self that we grow within us. Sometimes we listen to it as inner voice, sometimes we see it as providing checks and balances on how we act out and most of the time this is what we spend most of out time with. Sometimes having agreement, sometimes acting regardless, sometimes being indifferent".

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Seeker9

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Can someone describe what Soul is to me?

1.Is it a limb?

2. Is it an organ?

3. Is it some kind of circuit breaker that switches itself on and off with the help of Mann in our lifetime?

4. Is it the conductor of our inner orchestra which knows when our inner piano needs to be listened to and when the cymbals must leave a message?

What is IT?

It is very important to define what Soul is before we can discuss what it does or does not and where it goes after we become dust to dust, ashes to ashes?

Tejwant Singh

Dear Tejwant Ji

My attempt was to consider Soul as being a bit of the Creator within all living things and on the basis that everything in Creation is a form of energy, (not New Age energy but Physics!), I went further down that route

However, Ishna Ji articulated it better than me with reference to Jyot etc
 

Seeker9

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Dear Ambarsaria Ji

Thanks for the clarification and I have a better understanding of what you think. I will reflect on this more

One that still puzzles me but I believe it may get proven one day that the seeds of even the deepest parts of ourselves are based on genetics, the helix of life. I believe this also applies to the elements of soul that become full blown as we grow. So in a way if souls are genetically linked, then we have continuation in parts of souls from generation to generation. Not a complete re-incarnation or trans-migration (no one is a total ditto of someone else!) but changing but still connected from one to the other. Very fascinating area in itself.Hope the above makes sense.

Now that is a radical thought! But as you say, DNA defines all our physical attributes right down to even if we have a tendency to be fat or thin and impacts on our mental attributes as well e.g genetic predispostion to mental illness, MS, Alzheimers etc. So having addressed the physical and mental, does it have any influence over the Soul?

Or is the Soul independant?

Great question! Could be an interesting thread in its own right

Just extending the thought processes here ..if there is a genetic/parental contribution to Soul, would that have any impact on Karma, if Karma exists? (Incidentally, I have posted elsewhere on this forum that I have issues with Karma so I am not a fan of Karma but just asking the question)

Going off at a tangent again as you got me thinking here, what are the experiences of someone who is born deaf and blind? Is their physical link to Maya broken? Is it easier for them to focus inside? If a part of their Soul is passed on, what would the recipient gain?
 

seeker3k

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Seems to me there is no soul (atma). There could not be great soul (parmatma).
If there is paramatma who created soul for the human. Then that parmatma must have created soul for animals and other life.
I have not seen any other life praying to parmatma. No other live do the naam simran to save them self or to merge back into joyt.
If so then all the religions got it all wrong?
Lot of good information came from all the posts
Just wondering!
 

Ambarsaria

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seeker3k ji here lies the core of the issue,
If there is paramatma who created soul for the human. Then that parmatma must have created soul for animals and other life.
I have not seen any other life praying to parmatma. No other live do the naam simran to save them self or to merge back into joyt.
We just transpose human thoughts, mannerisms, ways of doing things and right away conclude. Why should animals have the ways of man? Why should fish learn swimming from a swimming instructor? Why should a dog bark like a man talks?

It is preposterous of mankind (I am not picking on you, so please don't feel offended) to some how expect other life to be like it. Why is there other life? Part of creation mosaic.

When people pray, they pray for understanding, bliss, happiness, etc., have we not seen animals seeking the same. I have, and it is everywhere one just needs to notice.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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SEEKER9 ji,
My response to your message 50 is as under.
As per my understanding Atamaa is a part of Parmatamma.All Souls(Atamaas) are degeneration portions SUPER SOUL (Paramatamaa).
Soul does not have any property of its own.It acquires properties in combination with Jeev so there is reference of Jeev atamaa.
We can notice a very interesting point in Gurbani.We do not find the use of word Parmatamaa but we do have the words Parmaatumu and Parmaatum.It would be interesting to understand these to have some clear idea about the view of Gurbani for the word Parmaatamaa.
As a matter of fact the concept of Atmaa /Parmatamaa is basically more dicussed in Hindu Philosophy and other philosophies.We can find great volumes wrtiitn on the subject of Atamaa.
What I understand is that atamaa or Parmatamaa is not a subject of Sikh Philosophy.
so i would not go for such details as this may not be liked by many in the forum.
Prakash.s.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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Prakash.s.bagga ji may be review again the following,

What I understand is that atamaa or Parmatamaa is not a subject of Sikh Philosophy.
There are quite a few references to Atma (ਆਤਮਾ) in Sri Guru Granth Sahib in the following,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=punjabi

In terms of the limited check the following is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib too in reference to Parmatma,

[SIZE=-1]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary[/SIZE] [SIZE=-0] ਪਰਮਆਤਮਾ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ॥ {ਆਸਾ ੧, ਅਸ ੨੦, ੬:੧ (421)}।

See the following for reference to Parmatma,
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-0]
[/SIZE]
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=421&punjabi=t&id=19418#l19418

ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ
जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
Those who understand their own souls, are themselves the Supreme Soul.

ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
एको अम्रित बिरखु है फलु अम्रितु होई ॥६॥
Ėko amriṯ birakẖ hai fal amriṯ ho▫ī. ||6||
The One Lord is the tree of ambrosial nectar, which bears the ambrosial fruit. ||6||

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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