Gurus Was Guru Nanak God?

[Archived_Member1]

Aad Ji and Pk70 Ji,

Let me describe a little about 3 different communities living in Bangkok. I stayed in Thailand for 10 years and this is my feedback. Normally two types of Gurdwara Functions, one is the social gathering and the other simpler and more spiritually inclined sangat. These 3 communities, all wearing turbans are Mainstream Sikhism, Namdharis and Radha Soamis. They all go to each others worship centres on social functions. But Namdhari never goes to Radhasoami and neither do RS go to Namdharis for spiritual satsangs. Sikhs hardly go to RS or Namdharis' satsangs, but RS and Namdharis do come to Gurdwara for satsang and Katha/Kirtan sessions regularly.

What do you make out of this ? All I can say is that we, mainstreamers, are the most tolerant of all. I have personally seen Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji come to Gurdwara, matha-tek and sit amongst the sangat like a commoner and listen to lectures. Accompanied by many other Namdharis.

my ignorant opinion would be that bangkok is not the best place to make judgments on the entire sikh quom, as the population is relatively small and homogeneous (most sikhs in thailand are of similar backgrounds - ie: businessmen).

let's hear observations about interactions between the communities in Punjab where the sheer numbers and greater diversity make the observation more useful.

 

[pk70]

Aad Ji and Pk70 Ji,

Let me describe a little about 3 different communities living in Bangkok. I stayed in Thailand for 10 years and this is my feedback. Normally two types of Gurdwara Functions, one is the social gathering and the other simpler and more spiritually inclined sangat. These 3 communities, all wearing turbans are Mainstream Sikhism, Namdharis and Radha Soamis. They all go to each others worship centres on social functions. But Namdhari never goes to Radhasoami and neither do RS go to Namdharis for spiritual satsangs. Sikhs hardly go to RS or Namdharis' satsangs, but RS and Namdharis do come to Gurdwara for satsang and Katha/Kirtan sessions regularly.

What do you make out of this ? All I can say is that we, mainstreamers, are the most tolerant of all. I have personally seen Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji come to Gurdwara, matha-tek and sit amongst the sangat like a commoner and listen to lectures. Accompanied by many other Namdharis.

namjapji

As you have observed, I used strong words, I should have used constrained language.
I must applaud you for having big heart too, that is an initial tool for Sikhi.
Here is the problem I want to share with you. During my recent trip to Punjab, I have seen pictures of Nanaidevi in the houses of Sikhs who go to Gurdawara regularly. A Sikh girl who runs her own business in Chandigarh has pictures of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh ji and Gnesh in her office” Why don’t you remove pictures of Guru Sahiban,?Gnesh alone can make you rich! I said to her. She just smiled. I have noticed Sikhs having tied a red cotton thread around their wrists. I asked one of them why he had to do that. Didn’t Guru Nanak set us free from these things? His answer floored me” they are all the same, Guru, Ram Krishna Devtas” namjap ji, have you heard about a slow death of a religion. This is it. They infiltrate into a religion to damage it. They act as if they respected all your faith. Do you think truly they respect our straight principles? NO. Their persuasion comes under disguise. Guru Gobind Singh ji kept Sikhs on right path while having very good friends from other faiths, Isn’t it amazing Pir Budhu Sahib ji honoured Guru ji by sacrificing his sons for Guru’s cause. Big heart and open-mindedness played a vital role in harmony of the society then and it does it now too; however, we must recognize the intentions of non Sikhs.
Regarding forgiveness, I cannot agree with you more than that but here is a troubling question. Have they accepted their mistake and started honouring Guru Granth sahib ji as only eternal Guru? If not, forgiveness can be used in another form, ignore them, I feel Sikhs are doing so. I am with you on some points but also disagree with you on some points as well.

 

[Astroboy]

Pk70 Ji,

In Malaysia, 80% of Sehajdhari Sikhs have devi devta photos and altars in their homes. Most of my kirtan students are from Sehajdhari families. They're Sikhs only by birth and not from the Rehat Maryada part except for the Kara. They smoke and drink like any other non-Sikh.

It is so difficult to break the tradition which they're used to. Kirtan is the only thing with which they connect to Sikhism. Children are sent for Punjabi classes and we teachers promote the children to sing on stage. If left to the Giani/Granthi alone, they would never have a chance to come forward.

Teaching children Sikh principles will of course take root but the percentage will remain small. I don't think so that Sikhs by birth have really changed since Sikhism started. Any feedback from you and others might be helpful.

 

[pk70]

namjap ji
I am amazed to know that. And, you bring them to Kirtan and introduce to them Gurbani. What a wonderful job you are blessed to do. May Waheguru be with you always in helping them out!!!! Thanks.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

pk70 wrote:

Didn’t Guru Nanak set us free from these things? His answer floored me” they are all the same, Guru, Ram Krishna Devtas” namjap ji, have you heard about a slow death of a religion. This is it. They infiltrate into a religion to damage it. They act as if they respected all your faith. Do you think truly they respect our straight principles? NO. Their persuasion comes under disguise. Guru Gobind Singh ji kept Sikhs on right path while having very good friends from other faiths, Isn’t it amazing Pir Budhu Sahib ji honoured Guru ji by sacrificing his sons for Guru’s cause. Big heart and open-mindedness played a vital role in harmony of the society then and it does it now too; however, we must recognize the intentions of non Sikhs.

I honor the wisdom and truth in these words. Thank you ji for sharing.

 

[runjeet]

Max314 writes: "The very fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes an example of past heroes of Hindu scriptures as becoming obsessed with themselves and believing themselves to be God indicates as much that the idea that Guru and God are literally the same entity is about as non-Sikkh an idea as you can have."

Well, then what is the Guru. I read on another website that Guru is two words meaning the light that dispels darkness. And that Guru Nanak was that light that came to earth to dispel darkness. Guru Nanak was the embodiment of God. The Guru went from one body to the next. Hence, the ten Gurus were Nanak himself.

If that website is wrong. then no wonder people stray away from Sikhism and go to other religions that are easier to understand, for example, Christianity.

 

[spnadmin]

A former Christian speaking here. I don't think Christianity is easier to understand, and it is very difficult to accept for people with a particular mindset.

Sikhs believe that the 10 Nanaks are speaking in the voice of Guru Nanak Dev ji, whose jyote was passed on to each one, and in whom a single jyote resides. This process culminates with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji who is now Guru ji.

It may be hard to understand how the jyote is passed on and how 11 speak as one.

But how is that more difficult than believing that Jesus Christ rose from the idea and spent another 40 day son earth before ascending to heaven to join his father. Or as some Christians believe that bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of Jesus Christ?

I really think you have identified an important issue in your questions. The question highlights in a very stark way how different religions are. Christianity and Sikhism are monotheistic. Yet the "cosmology" the understanding of how humans are connected to the Creator is so different, so extremely different.

Think about Sikhism, because that divinity swells within each of us, and the light can be enshrined within our hearts for any individual who reaches the highest state of spiritual development. In Christianity there is always duality, a fundamental difference between the Creator and the created.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Guru Nanak was the embodiment of God.

That's not stating the whole truth. God is everywhere, so simply saying Guru Nanak was the emodiment of God is only half the story.


:ice:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Aad Ji and Pk70 Ji,

Let me describe a little about 3 different communities living in Bangkok. I stayed in Thailand for 10 years and this is my feedback. Normally two types of Gurdwara Functions, one is the social gathering and the other simpler and more spiritually inclined sangat. These 3 communities, all wearing turbans are Mainstream Sikhism, Namdharis and Radha Soamis. They all go to each others worship centres on social functions. But Namdhari never goes to Radhasoami and neither do RS go to Namdharis for spiritual satsangs. Sikhs hardly go to RS or Namdharis' satsangs, but RS and Namdharis do come to Gurdwara for satsang and Katha/Kirtan sessions regularly.

What do you make out of this ? All I can say is that we, mainstreamers, are the most tolerant of all. I have personally seen Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji come to Gurdwara, matha-tek and sit amongst the sangat like a commoner and listen to lectures. Accompanied by many other Namdharis.

That is because the two are self excluisve..the RS have a living "GURU"..and so do the Namdharees....BUT BOTH share the SOMA...the SOURCE GURU...the Sri Guru Garnth Sahib Jee. Both know and realsie the SGGS is GREATER thna BOTH of them...

Let me cite a simple example from my "educational" background...
The Ministry of EDUCATION....is the Soma/Source....BUT two INDIVIDUAL SCHOOLS will have two HEADMASTERS......so in School "A" the Radhasoami Guru is the Headmaster....while in School "B" the Namdharee Guru is Head....so the Students of school "A" would NEVER listen/go to School B/Head.....vice versa... BUT BOTH Heads/all students as well...... can go to the Ministry of Education !!! and NOT feel slighted/lowerhigher/etc than each other...

Thus WE the Mainstream Sikhs report direct to the SOURCE/SOMA !!!
Gyani JS

 

[Tejwant Singh]

When living Guru takes precedent to Shabad Guru, then it becomes a personality based dogmatic religion,Me-ism- rather than idea based pragmatic way of life what Sikhi is.

That's why I am always reluctant in defining Sikhi as a religion because most of these religions are personality based.

Tejwant

 

[pk70]

But how is that more difficult than believing that Jesus Christ rose from the idea and spent another 40 day son earth before ascending to heaven to join his father. Or as some Christians believe that bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of Jesus Christ?

I really think you have identified an important issue in your questions. The question highlights in a very stark way how different religions are. Christianity and Sikhism are monotheistic. Yet the "cosmology" the understanding of how humans are connected to the Creator is so different, so extremely different.

Think about Sikhism, because that divinity swells within each of us, and the light can be enshrined within our hearts for any individual who reaches the highest state of spiritual development. In Christianity there is always duality, a fundamental difference between the Creator and the created.

aad0002 Ji, Well said in context of comparison as many look down at other faiths as impossible to believe when their own faith is based on more irrational phenomena.

 

[runjeet]

Please do tell the "rest of the story". I am quite interested. So was Guru Nanak a person, a spiritual being, God speaking through Guru Nanak, or God himself?And what is the difference between saying Satguru, Waheguru, or just the Guru? Aren't they all the same?

 

[pk70]

Please do tell the "rest of the story".
It is not a story, it is ones experience to go through, and words can be deceptive unlike experience
I am quite interested. So was Guru Nanak a person, a spiritual being, God speaking through Guru Nanak, or God himself?
What does it matter to know the source of the light when one needs light? If still interested, only mother can tell you how the labor becomes ecstasy to hear first cry of the child.
And what is the difference between saying Satguru, Waheguru, or just the Guru? Aren't they all the same?
It depends how high is the sincerity that longs to call, otherwise hypocrite’s words have no meaning regardless his/her attempts to call by using any word

 

[Astroboy]

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ (2)
साचा साहिबु साचु नाइ भाखिआ भाउ अपारु ॥
saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.
...........................................................................................

First Mehl:


ਸੁਇਨੇ ਕਾ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਪਤ ਪਰਵਾਲਾ ਫੁਲ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਲਾਲ ॥ (147)
सुइने का बिरखु पत परवाला फुल जवेहर लाल ॥
su-inay kaa birakh pat parvaalaa ful javayhar laal.
The Guru is the tree of gold, with leaves of coral, and blossoms of jewels and rubies.

ਤਿਤੁ ਫਲ ਰਤਨ ਲਗਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਾਖਿਤ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ॥ (147)
तितु फल रतन लगहि मुखि भाखित हिरदै रिदै निहालु ॥
{censored} fal ratan lageh mukh bhaakhit hirdai ridai nihaal.
The Words from His Mouth are fruits of jewels. Within His Heart, He beholds the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ॥ (147)
नानक करमु होवै मुखि मसतकि लिखिआ होवै लेखु ॥
naanak karam hovai mukh mastak likhi-aa hovai laykh.
O Nanak, He is obtained by those, upon whose faces and foreheads such pre-recorded destiny is written.

ਅਠਿਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਸੇਖੁ ॥ (147)
अठिसठि तीरथ गुर की चरणी पूजै सदा विसेखु ॥
athisath tirath gur kee charnee poojai sadaa visaykh.
The sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage are contained in the constant worship of the feet of the Exalted Guru.

ਹੰਸੁ ਹੇਤੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਕੋਪੁ ਚਾਰੇ ਨਦੀਆ ਅਗਿ ॥ (147)
हंसु हेतु लोभु कोपु चारे नदीआ अगि ॥
hans hayt lobh kop chaaray nadee-aa ag.
Cruelty, material attachment, greed and anger are the four rivers of fire.

ਪਵਹਿ ਦਝਹਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਤਰੀਐ ਕਰਮੀ ਲਗਿ ॥੨॥ (147)
पवहि दझहि नानका तरीऐ करमी लगि ॥२॥
paveh dajheh naankaa taree-ai karmee lag. ||2||
Falling into them, one is burned, O Nanak! One is saved only by holding tight to good deeds. ||2||

 

[Sikh80]

Coming directly to the question posed by the Heading of the thread ,it is reiterated that Guru Nanak was not God. There are many Tuk's supporting this in bani though there may be other tuks as well. Let us have a look at the following Line.



hir guru nwnku ijn prisAau is jnm mrx duh Qy rihE ]5] (1386-8, svXy, mÚ 5)
Whoever meets with the Lord through Guru Nanak is rid of both birth and death. ||5||

[/FONT] hir guru nwnku ijn@ prisE iqn@ sB kul kIE auDwru ]6] (1386-11, svXy, mÚ 5)
Whoever meets with the Lord through Guru Nanak, saves all his generations. ||6||[/FONT]

Guru sahibs has been referred to as the medium to reach the Goal.

The above states clearly that Nanak and God are two different beings. Guru Nanak was not Akaal. Further one can logic out that Guru Ji Himself uttered Mool Mantra that is describing the attributes of the Lord. This could not have been done in the praise of the self. Further , The word 'saibhung' means that he was ever present and is not born. It means self existent and hence Guru ji were not saibhung.

Besides this one may refer to the following tuk as well. It is, more or less, self explanatory.

[/FONT] kwrx krx smrQ isrIDr rwiK lyhu nwnk ky suAwmI ]1] (1387-7, svXy, mÚ 5)
The All-powerful Lord is the Cause of causes. O Lord and Master of Nanak, please save me! ||1||[/FONT]

[/FONT]

 

[BhagatSingh]

hir guru nwnku ijn prisAau is jnm mrx duh Qy rihE ]5] (1386-8, svXy, mÚ 5)
Whoever meets with the Lord through Guru Nanak is rid of both birth and death. ||5||

[/FONT] hir guru nwnku ijn@ prisE iqn@ sB kul kIE auDwru ]6] (1386-11, svXy, mÚ 5)
Whoever meets with the Lord through Guru Nanak, saves all his generations. ||6||[/FONT]

This is new... so much for the direct connection with God. :inca:

 

[gurpreet singh bubber]

yes guru nanak dev ji is a god and believe it or not he is the man with whole power, sarb kala sampuran. Yes, its true we never seen god, but its ture we always sit with them, play with them, share our happiness and time when we are alone.

come to the topic, about that sikh guy who said guru nanak dev ji is a god, that comes from his soul and he share that with you amardeep, what you said guru nanak dev ji is not god, then comes from your soul. It depends what people think about different thing in diffrent situation. This is actually written in those words

Take an example of poet writter, music director or any one which siute you, how they makes poem, music tunes, let me expalin what i want to say. Guru nanak dev ji was an great man with powerfull words, what ever he says become very helpfull for other. The guru mantar, music by bhai lehna ji and sloks which comes from guru sahib was just like same as tansain who impressed kings daughter.

Because guru nanak dev ji words was so powerful and helpful for people, people they start following him, because of guru shahib peacefullness, and from this it start the great power to come around from guru nanak dev ji to guru gobind singh ji, and finally the guru granth sahib ji in which not only all guru bani is written but all hindu bani, kabir ji shalok, baba ramdev ji shalok and many more is written in guru granth sahib through which the word sikhisum come, the real warrior. From soul


regards
gurpreet singh

 

[mehar singh]

Sat Sri Akal,
Just have a few comments and views. Do i believe that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was god?Yes I do .I believe that all the Gurus were god. Anyone who could give us the gift of Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji in my mind is god was god and will be god.Posing such a question is our great irresponsibility. for who are we to judge wether they were god or not.The sad part of it is when i read all the bani all the arguments in the forum nobody is trying to do the one thing which is to find God in ourselves.Knowledge at the end of the day takes us away from the real "tat" of it all. we have to give up everything especially our sianap to come anywhere close to God. Our Gurus loved each other as god Guru Angad Dev Ji loved Guru Nanak Dev JI as God.Guru Amardass ji Loved Guru Angad dev ji as God.And so on so forth.Who are we to judge.
If you love God you will see him in everyone and everything.So pls stop trying to be so analytical and find way to improve ourselves before we pose these kind of questions.become a Child be innocent you will meet god faster.

mehar singh

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sat Sri Akal,
Just have a few comments and views. Do i believe that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was god?Yes I do .I believe that all the Gurus were god. Anyone who could give us the gift of Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji in my mind is god was god and will be god.Posing such a question is our great irresponsibility. for who are we to judge wether they were god or not.

lol contradiction, aint it?:}{}{}: or hypocritical?

If you love God you will see him in everyone and everything.

Lol there you go! perfect answer!! I am God, you are God, he is God, she is God, everything is God!! :happy:

 

[pk70]

lol contradiction, aint it?:}{}{}: or hypocritical?


Lol there you go! perfect answer!! I am God, you are God, he is God, she is God, everything is God!! :happy:

It is a very, good, precise and sensible commentary Bhagat Singh Ji.
Adding more to it, He permeates in all ( eh vis sansaar tum dekhte HAR ka roop hai…“all you see this world, is Lord’s form” Mehl 3) but all is not the Nirguna Sroop for which Guru Sahiban pines. Guru ji also states HE doesn’t take birth ever ( ajooni= beyond birth) except being manifested in all. Guru has shown how to come out of small boxes but we still prefer to stay in them; it is very unfortunate