Gurus Was Guru Nanak God?

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

"If one has been born in a Namdhari family and has been taught to follow Namdhari Guru, there's nothing wrong in that. Just that they are a different sect and have the right to follow their Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji."

A different sect....of what? Sikhism? Can't be Sikhism since their dedhari guru said they are sanataan belonging to sect of Hinduism...but he tries to say that ALL Sikhs are sanataan dharam. And when these naamdharis come to a Sikh forum and start to tell Sikhs we are all wrong, Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only Adi Granth, and promote their dedhari guru lineage...we should be...tolerant, live and let live...SPN "welcomes" views regardless from what sect? But "welcoming" doesn't remove the responsibility to be honest and upfront about what Sikhism teaches, and to be clear about what it doesn't.

Sikh Namdhari writes, "I have been following your dialogue with interest. May I ask you friends to delve even deeper into what you loosely term as 'namdhari'; by which I assume you mean Namdhari philosphy.

'Namdhari' is a term which was given to those Sikhs who having discoverd who the ongoing 12 Guru was, came to His Charan to recieve the Amrit of NAAM. At that time, in the evening of the shortlived Khalsa Emipre, most Sikhs had embroiled themselves in the spoils of war victories over the Moguls.

Satguru Ram singhji reintroduced the Maryadha He had given to His Sikhs in His 10th Avtaar. Of course those whom He reintiated started to recite Naam. Those, like today who were caught in the net of Kalyug started to tease those who recited Naam and jokingly called them 'Naamdhariae'. Hence the name stuck.

All Gurus' Sikhs must be 'Naam - Dhari', for Naam is the ambrosial Nectar given to us by our Guru. It is the first gift a Seeker of God asks for from his Guru.

It is not Gursikhi parchaar to tolerate missionary attempts to propagandize Sikh people. And this is what we were all objecting to last year in poster "Sikh Namdhari's" sanataan parchaar.

He is welcome as a Naamdhari. He is not welcome as a Naamdhari SIKH. Because that promotes the message that SIKHISM is a sect of Hindu religion; That SIKHISM promotes living human gurus and a discredited lineage; That SIKHISM promotes affiliation with radical Hindutva organizations who are violently opposed (read wish death, torture and imprisonment on) Khalistani Sikhs; That SIKHISM promotes the Hinduization of Gursikhi...and Sikhism DOES NOT promote any of these things or any of these affiliations.

Amritsar, July 6
Demanding the resignation of the UPA government, fundamentalist Hindu organisations and temple managements today took to the streets to register their protest against terrorist attack at Ayodhya, yesterday. Agitated activists of the VHP, the BJP, the Bajrang Dal, the Durga Vahini, the Matri Shakti, the Bharaitya Janta Yuva Morcha, the Brahman Sabha , the Shiv Sena, the Arya Samaj, the Namdhari Samaj, the Sanatan Dharam Mandir management burnt effigy of the Islamic Jihad and the Pakistani flag at the main hall bazaar in this city.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab

A HUKUMNAMA REGARDING NAAMDHARI and other DEHDHARI Groups.

Maata No: 13, passed by 5 Singh Sahibaan on 24th October 2000 at Sri Akal Takht Sahib, Amritsar, Punjab.
In relation to Namdharis and Kirtan in Gurdwara Sahibs, 5 Singh Sahibaan agreed that those who do not believe in the 10 Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their salvation, and instead believe in Dehdhari Gurus and Devi Devte cannot be permitted to do Kirtan in Gurdwara Sahibs.

Jatherdar Joginder Singh Vendanti

Naamdhari's are NOT a sect of Sikhism. They are a sanataan sect of Hindu dharam who have troublesome affiliation with radical Hindutva.

 

[spnadmin]

NamJap ji

There is some old forum history here. If we can stipulate that the lineage of human gurus ended with Sri Gobind Singh, and the last and 11 th Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then counter-claims of Namdhari Sikhs are appropriate for SPN discussion. However, not as discussions of Shabad Guru as per Gurmat.

The last point that I would wish to make is that Sikh Namdhari does have a habit of patrolling various Sikhi forums promoting his perspective and basically instigating controversies. Pk70 is right on the money and not over-doing it in my opinion. He has stayed pretty close to the question at hand, and has not targeted Namdhari beliefs in particular. All of course is my opinion.

 

[pk70]

Pk70 Ji,

Cool it. If one has been born in a Namdhari family and has been taught to follow Namdhari Guru, there's nothing wrong in that. Just that they are a different sect and have the right to follow their Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji. Nobody is betraying our Guru. Better to be tolerant with a live and let live policy. SPN welcomes views from all regardless of the sect they follow. I enjoy Namdhari Kirtan.

Pk70 Ji, it is likely that I have misunderstood your message but just wanted to express my views as above.

~ namjap ~

namjap ji

I have great regards for you.
My reason not to accept him as a sikh is based on Sikh principles as jasleen_kaur also mentioned. As a general person, I have no problem with him. If he meets me in person, I will give him due respect. This is the way(namdhari sect) they have chosen. I respect that but why to claim the relogion they betrayed in the first place? Tenth Nanak ended this dehdhari Gurgaddi, why these guys voilated that? Once they did, they lost the right to be called Sikhs If you can recall namjap jio, Guru Sahib asked Sikhs not to have relation with meene, Ram rai, masand etc, there is no difference between the violation they and namdharis did. There is a possibility that some other guys will start doing kirtan and set up another sect against Sikhism. My concern is simple, they can do whatever they want to do but shouldnt make show of being Sikhs. Whoever they believe, I have no problem. It starts when they claim to be Sikhs. Who believes inTen Gurus and accepts only Guru Granth Sahib ji as Guru,is a Sikh Period.
All other mist has nothing to do with Sikhism.
I appreciate your openmindedness though

 

[Astroboy]

While I do see your strongly-worded viewpoints clearly, I would ask you to see mine too. If a namdhari visited this site in SPN and read all these remarks about his beliefs,he'll either leave or defend his belief system. He'll probably loose in a debate because we are so proficient on debate issues. But that will not stop him from following what is near and dear to him.

Generally speaking, I do find that Namdhari (Sikhs) are more disciplined in following their maryada than we Sikhs of SGGS following our Rehat Maryada. A Namdhari would never allow anybody to categorize him/her with other sects like Radha Soamis, Nirankari, etc.

 

[spnadmin]

While I do see your strongly-worded viewpoints clearly, I would ask you to see mine too. If a namdhari visited this site in SPN and read all these remarks about his beliefs,he'll either leave or defend his belief system. He'll probably loose in a debate because we are so proficient on debate issues. But that will not stop him from following what is near and dear to him.

Generally speaking, I do find that Namdhari (Sikhs) are more disciplined in following their maryada than we Sikhs of SGGS following your Rehat Maryada. A Namdhari would never allow anybody to categorize him/her with other sects like Radha Soamis, Nirankari, etc.

Namdhari are as you say disciplined in following their rehat. They also practice an ethic that cherishes the earth, a healthy lifestyle, reverence for life, and sanctity. I myself envy this -- were I so disciplined and so able to be an advocate for all of creation. The Namdhari consider themselves Sikhs. They differ on the one issue -- the end of the succession of human Gurus. This is a fundamental difference. And I have no doubt that Namdhari would debate very effectively on this forum. Why don't they? Do they in their strict discipline covering all aspects of life have the time to browse and debate? They espouse the value of devotional worship. Do they see any similar value in debate?

NamJap your observations would lead to some interesting discussion if authenticly Namdhari Sikhs were to join this thread.

 

[Astroboy]

Aad Ji and Pk70 Ji,

Let me describe a little about 3 different communities living in Bangkok. I stayed in Thailand for 10 years and this is my feedback. Normally two types of Gurdwara Functions, one is the social gathering and the other simpler and more spiritually inclined sangat. These 3 communities, all wearing turbans are Mainstream Sikhism, Namdharis and Radha Soamis. They all go to each others worship centres on social functions. But Namdhari never goes to Radhasoami and neither do RS go to Namdharis for spiritual satsangs. Sikhs hardly go to RS or Namdharis' satsangs, but RS and Namdharis do come to Gurdwara for satsang and Katha/Kirtan sessions regularly.

What do you make out of this ? All I can say is that we, mainstreamers, are the most tolerant of all. I have personally seen Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji come to Gurdwara, matha-tek and sit amongst the sangat like a commoner and listen to lectures. Accompanied by many other Namdharis.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji come to Gurdwara, matha-tek and sit amongst the sangat like a commoner and listen to lectures. Accompanied by many other Namdharis.

If you think Jagjit Singh Naamdhari is a Satguru, then there is indeed a problem. Of course he is a "commoner." He is no different than you or me.

Tolerance is a noble thing. But anything can be taken to extremes. For example, we don't think of being tolerant while a child is being harmed. We don't think of being tolerant if someone is doing beadbi of Shabad Guru Ji. We don't think of being tolerant if a drunk driver is recklessly racing down the road. We either intervene or call police to STOP wrongdoing. So it is fair to say it is also noble to be "intolerant."

It's wonderful to be tolerant to neighbors who are RS or Naamdhai and be kind to them. But why would you attend their satsangs in the false name of tolerance? You see Veer Ji, Guru Ji can't be Shabad Guru Ji saroop and also some dedhari saroop. So there isn't a satsang between us. To pretend there is only denies legitimate differences. We have a Guru they don't acknowledge. They have a guru we don't acknowledge.

Of course Jagjit Naamdhari is going to be respectful of Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in front of Sikhs in Gurudwara. Do you think he's there to cause a commotion? But the fact remains he is NOT respectful of Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because he thinks it is only Adi Granth. His sect does not acknowledge Gurgaddhi through Shabadguru Ji. He asserts and teaches that he himself...is the living Guru in place of Shabad Guru Ji. And if anyone is attending satsangs of Radhasoami or Naamdhari, they are implicitly acknowledging that dedhari gurus are equal to Guruji. Because that is what the RS and Naamdharis are teaching. And if they go there to imbibe their teachings through satsang...they are consenting to be taught the content of those contrary beliefs. Else, why is a Sikh of the Guru participating in parchaar of dedhari gurus in satsang with dedhari chelas?

This has nothing to do with "tolerance." It has everything to do with blurring distinctions to create confusion. It publically denies the distinctions of Gursikhi. Gursikhi does not acknowledge dedhari guru lineages of these cults and deras. We have the 10 Satgurus and the 11th Shabadguru Ji Maharaaj. We do not recognize these strange people as our Guruji. There can be no satsang with these Indian Government sponsored sects, because they deny our Guru and put themselves in his place.

 

[Astroboy]

Quoted by Harjas Kaur Khalsa

There can be no satsang with these Indian Government sponsored sects, because they deny our Guru and put themselves in his place.

Harjas Ji and All,

The Indian govt is definitely afraid of the mainstream sikhs because they cannot put Shabad Guru behind bars, or assassinate because it is not a physical entity. Indian govt isn't afraid of dehdharis for obvious reasons. The same obvious reasons that dehdharis are afraid of the Indian Govt.

My question is about the chela of the Guru having tolerance. By wiping out the dehdhari sects or by changing their belief system isn't going to add points to our ticket to self-realization. Calling a doctor - Dr. Jagjit Singh Ji - does not diminish my dignity even if his doctorate is not recognized in this country. Using the term Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji doesn't make me his chela. But there are namdharis who come to this site to get inspiration. I have to make this assumption. If there are only a few now, they may increase in future, because the banis they recite are readily available online in this site with explanations.

Of course, you are entitled to your views and choice of words and whether their effect appears sweet or bitter depends entirely on your own approach.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Using the term Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji doesn't make me his chela.

Using the term implies that you are in agreement that he is in fact, Satguru.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

By wiping out the dehdhari sects or by changing their belief system isn't going to add points to our ticket to self-realization.

We aren't trying to change their belief systems or wipe them out. We're trying to prevent them AND the Indian government from wiping us out by making the dedhari sects indistinguisable from mainstream Sikhi.

 

[spnadmin]

NamJap ji

As I said earlier -- the presence of a Satgur in the form of a human being is a fundamental difference.

For religious reasons I would not attend those services. Mainstream Sikhs -- just an hypothesis on my part here -- did not attend the services of these other 2 sects because they were pretty much committed to notion of 10 Naanaks and that is the end of that, 11th Guru is SGGS. There is by the way great liberation in simplicity of practice and belief. I am thinking of some of the elderly at Gurdwara who kneel before Guruji when they enter, when they approach Guruji, when they take their places, when they get settled and organized. So many times -- out complete devotion to That One. There is only Guruji -- and so how could they re-direct that devotion to any other.

On ethical grouns it is my responsibility to know and understand the beliefs of others, their history, their rehat and how they choose to worship.

On purely ethical grounds I may not condemn these groups either -- unless illegal and/or inhumane practices were condoned by them. And there is always the danger that we condemn groups for the acts of prominent individuals, or that the wrong individuals present themselves as representatives of these sects, convincing others that the speak with authority when they are in fact charlatans.

 

[Astroboy]

I had been wondering why Sri Harmandir Sahib has 4 doors - maybe we also need to re-define its meanings according to the whims and fancies of our inner manmat.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

And what did Guruji do to his own son Ram Rai for changing a single word of Gurbani? And why to this day are descendents of Ram Rai under social boycott?

See, this is the problem with the philosophy of liberalism. It pretends to be openminded, but the philosophy contradicts Gursikh teaching. The wisest solution to any contradiction is to eliminate one's own manmat and try to conform to Gurmat Gursikhi. There are very good reasons why certain groups are under social boycott and we are not to be in communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth. Sikhism isn't a religion of unconditional love without discipline.

It's a very mistaken notion of kindness to think individually we have something to give these people. Guruji has to change their hearts and minds. We can't do it. Everyone has their own karam. But we can, by our actions, influence susceptible people to become favorably disposed to antagonistic sects and lead them astray from Guru.

Sikh Rehat Maryada, Section 5, Ch. XIII, Article XXIII:
p. The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott:
1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants
2. One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs;
3. One who dyes his beard;
4. One who gives off son or daughter in matrimony for a price or reward;
5. Users of intoxicants (hemp, opium, liquor, narcotics, cocaine, etc.);
6. One holding, or being a party to, ceremonies or practices contrary to the Guru's way;
7. One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline.

 

[Astroboy]

I would take the sakhi of Satta and Balwand to be more applicable in this discussion. Our Gurus are forgivers. Another one - 40 muktey. Bakhshan-haar. The world is already full of enough pain and agony. We can remind others of the good things - something which we can ponder/contemplate on ourselves.

Samrath Guru sirr hath .....
Shabad Guru, Surat Dhun .....
Satgur Mera Bemotaj, Sacha Saaj, Vadh Samratha, ....

 

[spnadmin]

I had been wondering why Sri Harmandir Sahib has 4 doors - maybe we also need to re-define its meanings according to the whims and fancies of our inner manmat.

Sri Harmandir welcomes everyone from every faith. You are reinforcing your own earlier observation. Sikhism excludes no one. But Shabad Guru Sikhs may not want to stray far from the center of their own belief.

And I wasn't being argumentative. Sorry if that is how it appeared.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Our Gurus are forgivers.

Nothing is stopping anyone under social boycott from returning to the Sikh Panth. The moment they do, then they are a Sikh! But who can be forgiven who does not admit wrong and ask forgiveness? Social boycott is to create bhairaag in their hearts for Guruji. Maybe it will take lifetimes. When they are hungry enough they will come back to Guru.

Nothing is accomplished by our going against Guruji's hukam due to some mistaken ideas of openmindedness. It isn't kindness not to tell someone they are about to fall off a cliff. Why would you tell Naamdhari's that Jagjit Singh is really Satguru? That's like assuring them it's okay to stay far from Guruji. What kind of friend is that? What will you say to Guru at the darbar of His Court after you die? Because these people can't be saved with dedhari gurus. And a lot of them really suffer exploitation and bad things in these deras.

The world is already full of enough pain and agony.

If people are drowning, and we are not Guru to save them, what is accomplished by our jumping in to drown with them? Trust in Guruji. Everything happens for a reason.

ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
The Lord Himself leads the people of the world astray; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.
~SGGS Ji p. 145​

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
dhukh dhaaroo sukh rog bhaeiaa jaa sukh thaam n hoee ||
Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.​

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
thoon karathaa karanaa mai naahee jaa ho karee n hoee ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​

 

[spnadmin]

Nothing is stopping anyone under social boycott from returning to the Sikh Panth. The moment they do, then they are a Sikh! But who can be forgiven who does not admit wrong and ask forgiveness? Social boycott is to create bhairaag in their hearts for Guruji. Maybe it will take lifetimes. When they are hungry enough they will come back to Guru.

Nothing is accomplished by our going against Guruji's hukam due to some mistaken ideas of openmindedness. It isn't kindness not to tell someone they are about to fall off a cliff. Why would you tell Naamdhari's that Jagjit Singh is really Satguru? That's like assuring them it's okay to stay far from Guruji. What kind of friend is that? What will you say to Guru at the darbar of His Court after you die? Because these people can't be saved with dedhari gurus. And a lot of them really suffer exploitation and bad things in these deras.

If people are drowning, and we are not Guru to save them, what is accomplished by our jumping in to drown with them? Trust in Guruji. Everything happens for a reason.

ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
The Lord Himself leads the people of the world astray; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.
~SGGS Ji p. 145​

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
dhukh dhaaroo sukh rog bhaeiaa jaa sukh thaam n hoee ||
Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.​

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
thoon karathaa karanaa mai naahee jaa ho karee n hoee ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​

There is some profound thinking here. According equal value to all ways of belief may often be neither equity nor fairness. And as Harjas points out, one can even be harming others even when we think our motives are just.

 

[Astroboy]

Harjas Ji and Aad Ji,

I'm honoured to be in the company of Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji because she is a happening person. Her flow of info is remarkable. This is truly a learning zone for me.

I want to share this which I'll call painting a picture in one's mind.

We know everything is in HIS HUKAM. Many times when I read someone's post that inspires me, the same thought re-runs in the mind : if we are HIS children then what harm can come to us - with a fall we go unconscious but Soul never dies. Soul can't be harmed if we make HIS WILL our will. Truly, we are communication soul to soul even right now. Did I read this from a book ? No, I don't think so. It is the constant re-assuring of ourselves of the physical - being the centre of our being - that keeps the illusion alive.

Guru Gobind Singh defined Khalsa -

Bhai Inderjit Singh - Puran Jot Jage Ghat Me

Puran Jot Jage Ghat Mein, Tab Khalas Tahe Nikhalas Jaane.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Wow. You want me to fall on my kacherra. Any wisdom is Guru Sahib's...the errors are all mine.


Thank you Veer Ji for sharing lovely kirtan.

 

[Astroboy]

"Deep within the self is the light of God. It radiates through the expanse of God’s creation. Through the Guru’s teachings, the darkness of spiritual ignorance is dispelled. The hear lotus flower blossoms forth and eternal peace is obtained as one’s light merges with the supreme light."
Guru Amar Das

The Teachings of Guru Amardas Ji by By G. S. Mansukhani, M.A., LL.B., Ph.D.