To Live In Truth

[Harry Haller]

I think that Ghian Dhian is much more than that...

of course you do, it suits your agenda

Ghian= is the divine knowledge/wisdom/truth that comes WITH Dhian=which is focus, meditating on the name.(jinnee naam dhyiaaa..)

but Sherdilji thinks that

(Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom)

personally I feel you have once again missed the point and I would go with Sherdilji's interpretation

The whole shabad is misused for justifying meat or not.
The deeper essence of the shabad is not even about the meat is it ??

well if you read his post, you will see the words

In the famous “Fools argue over meat and flesh” shabadh, Guru ji was highlighting that very same hypocrisy, which arises from a lack of understanding about the world around us. (Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom). I believe this shabadh cuts to the very heart of the topic:

so your observation is moot...

The key issue here is the translation of the word Dhian, you believe it to be a reference to mumbling, Sherdilji feels it is attention,

I keep coming back to Vedic practices because there has been an agenda for quite some time now in an effort to show Sikhi in either an Abrahamic or Vedic light, funnily enough an Islamic light does not seem to exist, but then back in the day, at least you knew where you stood because the Islamic attempts at assimilation were much less subtle.

The point is that Sikhism is supposed to be, as I have said, a pragmatic way of life free of superstition and mumbo jumbo, its pretty straightforward and nicely encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I believe one can grasp the basic foundations of Sikhism from such.

Unfortunately, this has never been enough, not then, and not today, there will always be forces that wish to undermine this simplicity and lack of mumbo jumbo by claiming that there are tenth eyes, coiled serpants, and breakdancing dwarves that need to be taken into account, and by focusing, meditating and using mental gymnastics, a whole secret new wisdom can be obtained.

The thread is to live in truth, I fail to see why the subject of hocus pocus chanting, meditations etc are even present in this thread, to live in the truth is to simply be truthful and live truthfully. What is so hard about this concept? I wake up in the morning, I keep within the speed limit, I feed my animals, I go to work , I open my shop, I am honest with the people that come in, I don't rip anyone off, I don't ogle women, I treat people with respect, I eat simply, I do not buy stolen computers, if I say I will do something, I try and keep to my word, if I see someone in trouble, I try and help , that to me is the foundation of truthful living, why are we trying to turn such a simple concept into something so complicated?

 

[kggr001]

@harry haller ji, I suggest you to read/listen this shabad: Slok Mahalla 9

 

[chazSingh]

I suggest you to read/listen this shabad: Slok Mahalla 9

Thank you for posting this amazing video and description of Slok Mahalla....i'm sat at work listening to this and contemplating it...truely amazing and enrapturing..

Thank you ji

God Bless

 

[chazSingh]

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by harry haller
The point is that Sikhism is supposed to be, as I have said, a pragmatic way of life free of superstition and mumbo jumbo, its pretty straightforward and nicely encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I believe one can grasp the basic foundations of Sikhism from such.

Unfortunately, this has never been enough, not then, and not today, there will always be forces that wish to undermine this simplicity and lack of mumbo jumbo by claiming that there are tenth eyes, coiled serpants, and breakdancing dwarves that need to be taken into account, and by focusing, meditating and using mental gymnastics, a whole secret new wisdom can be obtained.

The thread is to live in truth, I fail to see why the subject of hocus pocus chanting, meditations etc are even present in this thread, to live in the truth is to simply be truthful and live truthfully. What is so hard about this concept? I wake up in the morning, I keep within the speed limit, I feed my animals, I go to work , I open my shop, I am honest with the people that come in, I don't rip anyone off, I don't ogle women, I treat people with respect, I eat simply, I do not buy stolen computers, if I say I will do something, I try and keep to my word, if I see someone in trouble, I try and help , that to me is the foundation of truthful living, why are we trying to turn such a simple concept into something so complicated?
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Harry Ji,

Truthful living in the way you describe is obviously a major part of sikhi...we can all agree to this.

But Gurbani says majority of population (me, you, probably everyone in this sangat) is trapped in this creation, attached to it...and we put all our faith in the creation and have completely fogotten the creator...so in escence we are not living in truth we are living in our ego created lie.

No matter how truthful you are, and how great your actions are...unless we break from the illusion of the creation...the attachment to it, thinking that what we see, hear, touch, smell, and taste is ALL that exists. Then we are still living a lie. but truthful actions will create an environment for you to start seeking the absolute truth...

It is not us (humans) that are manufacturing terms and concepts like the tenth gate (dassam Duar), coiled kundalini, inner vision, connection to inner shabad, realms, the hearing of unstruck sound current (within you), guiding your consciousness/attention back to the mool...

this is all in gurbani, and whilst we don;t know exactly what all this is, it is still there in Gurbani...and it inspires us, and makes us wonder...and the thirst starts to increase within to know the Truth.

in reality you are not disagreeing with us, you are disagreeing with Gurbani and what it portrays to us...because it is Guru JI saying all this no matter how crazy, new age, airy fairy it all sounds...

Body is the GuruDwara...the shabad resonated within it...turn your attention within and attach to it, and what is within Gurbani will no longer sound airy fairy...it will be shown as being the truth...living in Truth and we will all stand in amazement and utter the words "Wah, Wah...Wahe...Waheguru"

 

[kggr001]

The point is that Sikhism is supposed to be, as I have said, a pragmatic way of life free of superstition and mumbo jumbo, its pretty straightforward and nicely encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I believe one can grasp the basic foundations of Sikhism from such.

Sikhism tells us many times, that one should free himself from Ego, Greed, Lust, Anger, Attachment. As a human we have a gift thats Higher Consciousness, which we can free ourselves from those 5 thieves, if one does not free himself. Then whats the difference between that human and an animal? They both are controlled by there emotions.

and by focusing, meditating and using mental gymnastics, a whole secret new wisdom can be obtained.

That depends on how you interpret it, when one meditates he releases himself from this world literally and figuratively speaking. Yes in that experience you gain new Wisdom you start understanding things(realise the illusion), If you meant with "New Wisdom" that someone tomorrow can build an Alien Spaceship after years of meditating, then I agree with you that he won't get that wisdom.

The thread is to live in truth, I fail to see why the subject of hocus pocus chanting, meditations etc are even present in this thread, to live in the truth is to simply be truthful and live truthfully. What is so hard about this concept? I wake up in the morning, I keep within the speed limit, I feed my animals, I go to work , I open my shop, I am honest with the people that come in, I don't rip anyone off, I don't ogle women, I treat people with respect, I eat simply, I do not buy stolen computers, if I say I will do something, I try and keep to my word, if I see someone in trouble, I try and help , that to me is the foundation of truthful living, why are we trying to turn such a simple concept into something so complicated?

One can only live in truth if he first understands the truth(that this is all is nothing more then an illusion), what you do is living a honest life which is what Sikhism also teaches us.

 

[Harry Haller]

@harry haller ji, I suggest you to read/listen this shabad: Slok Mahalla 9

Let me be clear about my stance

Reincarnation
Multiple wives of the Gurus
authenticity of the Dasam Granth
intervention of God in any way shape of form in our lives
the ability to further ones knowledge through meditation
non eating of meat in an effort to be clean and pure

do not represent the truth to me, so I would not waste my time perusing a website or putting my faith in content from a website that considered the above the truth, I am happy to provide quotes from the website to back the above.

 

[Harry Haller]

Truthful living in the way you describe is obviously a major part of sikhi...we can all agree to this.

oh goody

But Gurbani says majority of population (me, you, probably everyone in this sangat) is trapped in this creation, attached to it...and we put all our faith in the creation and have completely fogotten the creator...so in escence we are not living in truth we are living in our ego created lie.

hmmm there is that Vedic slant again, I see god in everything and everyone, so do enlighten me as to how I have forgotten god?

No matter how truthful you are, and how great your actions are...unless we break from the illusion of the creation...the attachment to it, thinking that what we see, hear, touch, smell, and taste is ALL that exists. Then we are still living a lie. but truthful actions will create an environment for you to start seeking the absolute truth...

I have no interest in the absolute truth as you know it, I aim for a more pragmatic and realistic truth, which breeds understanding, hopefully wisdom, perception, and the ability to use these facets to help more of Creation, I guess you guys are seeking membership to the mukti club where you can all float around on your own self importance, good luck with that one

It is not us (humans) that are manufacturing terms and concepts like the tenth gate (dassam Duar), coiled kundalini, inner vision, connection to inner shabad, realms, the hearing of unstruck sound current (within you), guiding your consciousness/attention back to the mool...

I have already debated the coiled serpent thing with you, and I have already produced bani where it is mocked, do you wish me to do this again, or shall I just post a link to the last time we had this discussion?

this is all in gurbani, and whilst we don;t know exactly what all this is, it is still there in Gurbani...and it inspires us, and makes us wonder...and the thirst starts to increase within to know the Truth.

You want to know the truth, I just want to live the truth, maybe when you have finished being thirsty we can debate

in reality you are not disagreeing with us, you are disagreeing with Gurbani and what it portrays to us...because it is Guru JI saying all this no matter how crazy, new age, airy fairy it all sounds...

Yes it is Guruji with a helpful hand from some helpful interpretation from some very helpful souls!

Body is the GuruDwara...the shabad resonated within it...turn your attention within and attach to it, and what is within Gurbani will no longer sound airy fairy...it will be shown as being the truth...living in Truth and we will all stand in amazement and utter the words "Wah, Wah...Wahe...Waheguru"

and for your next trick, do you think you can pull a rabbit from a hat, or something a bit more entertaining?

 

[Harry Haller]

That depends on how you interpret it, when one meditates he releases himself from this world literally and figuratively speaking. Yes in that experience you gain new Wisdom you start understanding things

ahhh meditation is like smoking pot!

 

[chazSingh]

chazSingh Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Body is the GuruDwara...the shabad resonated within it...turn your attention within and attach to it, and what is within Gurbani will no longer sound airy fairy...it will be shown as being the truth...living in Truth and we will all stand in amazement and utter the words "Wah, Wah...Wahe...Waheguru" </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

and for your next trick, do you think you can pull a rabbit from a hat, or something a bit more entertaining?

Harry JI,

I think by what you have just stated above, i think it is clear you have completely missed one of the most repeated things in gurbani...so many times this is repeated, but i will leave you with just one quote...

I have quit searching outside; the Guru has shown me that God is within the home of my own heart

Good Luck ji on your journey of sikhi...our destination is the same...god bless

Waheguru

 

[chazSingh]

ahhh meditation is like smoking pot!

in my once devious past...i have tried many drugs...
definatily not proud of it...

BUT, i guess i can answer you question here due to my experience of both...

Meditation of shabad is not even close to smoking pot.. lol the two are poles apart.

I thank god that i can distinguish between the two, and that he pulled me out of that mess...

Waheguru.

 

[kggr001]

I respect your believes 0

I will say the same as ChazSingh ji, good Luck on your journey of sikhi.

 

[Sherdil]

Somehow this thread turned into the same Naam Simran debate we were having before, with the usual suspects. I have no problem if you guys wanna meditate, but personally I don't see the need, nor do I think it is essential for a Sikh to become truthful or live truthfully. In that meat eating shabadh I posted, Guru ji is talking to the pandit and telling him he does not have gian or dhian. They have translated those words to mean spiritual wisdom and meditation. Literally gian and dhian mean wisdom and attention respectively. Knowing every creature has the light of God within it is "gian". Remembering that when you deal with people is "dhian". This is the real meditation. The meditation you guys are talking about existed way before Sikhi was created. That's probably what the Pandits did also, but guru ji is clearly saying they do not know the truth nor do they live truthfully.

I have tried meditating and didn't gain much from it. I know more people than not who feel the same. It's a great stress reliever and it calms you down, but I feel that my understanding of Sikhi has grown a lot more in the past 6 months I have been visiting this forum and having discussions with people. My gian and my dhian have both improved.

What you guys are prescribing is not a means to understand truth or live truthfully. Truth comes from reading, contemplating and discussing. It does not manifest itself on its own. Had you guys continued in your meditation, instead of coming onto this forum and having discussions, your understanding would not have grown either. Even Guru ji traveled the subcontinent and the middle-east in search of spiritual people to have discussions with. Gurbani is created from those discussions. It was not revealed in a meditative trance.

So I would request the Naam jap gang to refrain from putting a Naam jap spin on every intellectual discussion that comes up on this forum. It takes away from the debate and turns it into a frivolous back and forth. Frankly, it saps the fun out of coming onto this forum.

God bless

 

[chazSingh]

Somehow this thread turned into the same Naam Simran debate we were having before, with the usual suspects.

Unfortunately some topics do overlap...
from what i remember of this forum and comments, most people were talking about their views of truthful living and living in truth..until harry ji mentioned mediation, airy fairy stuff..

I have no problem if you guys wanna meditate, but personally I don't see the need, nor do I think it is essential for a Sikh to become truthful or live truthfully.

Am i reading this correctly

In that meat eating shabadh I posted, Guru ji is talking to the pandit and telling him he does not have gian or dhian. They have translated those words to mean spiritual wisdom and meditation. Literally gian and dhian mean wisdom and attention respectively. Knowing every creature has the light of God within it is "gian". Remembering that when you deal with people is "dhian". This is the real meditation. The meditation you guys are talking about existed way before Sikhi was created. That's probably what the Pandits did also, but guru ji is clearly saying they do not know the truth nor do they live truthfully.

that's great...you have learned that there are many forms of meditation....keep doing it...

I have tried meditating and didn't gain much from it. I know more people than not who feel the same. It's a great stress reliever and it calms you down, but I feel that my understanding of Sikhi has grown a lot more in the past 6 months I have been visiting this forum and having discussions with people. My gian and my dhian have both improved.

excellent, i can say i have also learned a lot..

What you guys are prescribing is not a means to understand truth or live truthfully. Truth comes from reading, contemplating and discussing. It does not manifest itself on its own

I did the same (reading, contemplating and discussing) with my wife when we had booked to visit to go to Australia on our honeymoon. was great...i did a lot of imagining. it helped me get excited about my destination, about my journey ahead...it was very worth while
In the end nothing compared nor matched to actually going there

Had you guys continued in your meditation, instead of coming onto this forum and having discussions, your understanding would not have grown either.

Do you honestly think we were sat in a dark room hibernating and meditating 24/7 with our eyes closed and then one evening we came across a thing called a computer and logged on and started living and discussing? lol lol i an many others that meditate on shabad live normal lives and participate in society lol

Even Guru ji traveled the subcontinent and the middle-east in search of spiritual people to have discussions with. Gurbani is created from those discussions. It was not revealed in a meditative trance.

Yup, Guru Ji sure did...

yes Guru Ji's came across other writings from other bhagats, saints etc that they recognised as also coming from the source...and included them in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...

But how on this beautiful earth can you say how Gurbani came to Guru Ji...Guru Ji already tries to explain in the best possible way how Gurbani came to him...and it was not from other people. lol

So I would request the Naam jap gang to refrain from putting a Naam jap spin on every intellectual discussion that comes up on this forum. It takes away from the debate and turns it into a frivolous back and forth. Frankly, it saps the fun out of coming onto this forum.

Topic is about truthful living and living in truth...you already have stated that you don't believe that a sikh should aspire to both...so thanks for your input...which is your opinion....so let others have their own spin on things as well...

The reason why people are so passionate about meditating and naam Simran is because they are having a very deep experience of God within themselves...and some of the airy fairy stuff that people think in Gurbani is just to 'wacky' to be real...is actually very real for the truth seeker...

who on earth would not be passionate about that...

Back to the topic...

 

[chazSingh]

Such an amazing Shabad which describes creation (as the majority see it) as False...

It describes how only a few know of the Truth...then surely it is these few that are 'living in Truth' while the rest are enraptured in non-truth and putting all their hopes, desires, actions in the false version of reality their ego has entangled them in...

Such a beautiful and straight to the point Shabad but yet it contains so much to thing about and comprehend...

I pray one day i know and live the full deep meaning of this shabad.

God Bless

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td> ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਨ ਪਛੋਤਾਈਐ ॥
जीवदिआ मरु मारि न पछोताईऐ ॥
Jīvḏi▫ā mar mār na pacẖẖoṯā▫ī▫ai.
While you are alive, conquer death, and you shall have no regrets in the end.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਝੂਠਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਕਿਨਿ ਸਮਝਾਈਐ ॥
झूठा इहु संसारु किनि समझाईऐ ॥
Jẖūṯẖā ih sansār kin samjā▫ī▫ai.
This world is false, but only a few understand this.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਚਿ ਨ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਧਾਈਐ ॥
सचि न धरे पिआरु धंधै धाईऐ ॥
Sacẖ na ḏẖare pi▫ār ḏẖanḏẖai ḏẖā▫ī▫ai.
People do not enshrine love for the Truth; they chase after worldly affairs instead.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਾਲੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਖੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆਈਐ ॥
कालु बुरा खै कालु सिरि दुनीआईऐ ॥
Kāl burā kẖai kāl sir ḏunī▫ā▫ī▫ai.
The terrible time of death and annihilation hovers over the heads of the world.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੰਦਾਰੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਦਾਈਐ ॥
हुकमी सिरि जंदारु मारे दाईऐ ॥
Hukmī sir janḏār māre ḏā▫ī▫ai.
By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, the Messenger of Death smashes his club over their heads.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈਐ ॥
आपे देइ पिआरु मंनि वसाईऐ ॥
Āpe ḏe▫e pi▫ār man vasā▫ī▫ai.
The Lord Himself gives His Love, and enshrines it within their minds.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਮੁਹਤੁ ਨ ਚਸਾ ਵਿਲੰਮੁ ਭਰੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
मुहतु न चसा विलमु भरीऐ पाईऐ ॥
Muhaṯ na cẖasā vilamm bẖarī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai.
Not a moment or an instant's delay is permitted, when one's measure of life is full.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥
गुर परसादी बुझि सचि समाईऐ ॥२०॥
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20||
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20||
</td></tr> <tr></tr></tbody></table>

 

[Harry Haller]

S

uch an amazing Shabad which describes creation (as the majority see it) as False...

Creation is that which Creator created, if this shabad is telling you that Creation is false, then it follows that Creator is also false, nowhere in this shabad do I see Creation described as false, it is the world that is false, to wit, the sights, sounds, smells and feelings that are corrupted by the thieves that is false. Creation itself is perfect, it is our own interpretation of this that results in the world that we live in today, it is why when we see a woman in a short skirt and high heels, we think of sex, of lust, not of the woman as a person (from a mans perspective), it is why when we see a flash car, we want to own the car, we feel envy, anger, this has nothing at all to do with Creation, I am surprised you have made such a statement. In fact your statement makes no sense in any fashion as the majority see this type of Creation, this type of world as true through the thief inspired lenses they wear.

The last line of the shabad is particularly important to me,

Such a beautiful and straight to the point Shabad but yet it contains so much to thing about and comprehend...

Does it? It seems quite straightforward to me, if you view the world through desire and the need for the self, you will always be let down, seems the main essence.

I pray one day i know and live the full deep meaning of this shabad.

I don't pray myself, I see no point, but whilst you are praying for more than what the shabad very simply states, there are those out there who are living it, right now.

This thread is titled living in the truth, I cannot see what is so hard about living in the truth, the shabad you have quoted does not seem particularly hard to understand, it is reasonably simple, is the need to pray to one day understand it a sign of reverse ego? Is it false humility?

You guys talk of the thieves a lot, I get the impression that you do not feel you will start living until you have vanquished every one of the thieves and killed them dead, and then finally, life can begin as a Sikh. My understanding is quite different, to me the thieves are like those fairground games where you have to hit these big plastic furry animals with a mallet, they start off slow and the more you hit them, the more they come out, until they come in ones, twos, threes, and you have no chance of hitting them all at the same time, to me, the thieves need to be understood, to be talked to, to be listened to, to be integrated into life, to be given a useful job, to be used in logistics, but no, you guys want to hit them and hit them hard, but you will never win, and you will spend your lives with that mallet bashing away.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥
गुर परसादी बुझि सचि समाईऐ ॥२०॥
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20||
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20||

Now you guys will see this as some supreme connection to god, where god has been absorbed into you and you are full of grace and godness, I see it as taking on the attributes of god as described in mool mantra, and using that as a template for personality, which gradually becomes easier until you are that template.

 

[kggr001]

S

Creation is that which Creator created, if this shabad is telling you that Creation is false, then it follows that Creator is also false, nowhere in this shabad do I see Creation described as false, it is the world that is false, to wit, the sights, sounds, smells and feelings that are corrupted by the thieves that is false. Creation itself is perfect, it is our own interpretation of this that results in the world that we live in today, it is why when we see a woman in a short skirt and high heels, we think of sex, of lust, not of the woman as a person (from a mans perspective), it is why when we see a flash car, we want to own the car, we feel envy, anger, this has nothing at all to do with Creation, I am surprised you have made such a statement. In fact your statement makes no sense in any fashion as the majority see this type of Creation, this type of world as true through the thief inspired lenses they wear.

The last line of the shabad is particularly important to me,


Does it? It seems quite straightforward to me, if you view the world through desire and the need for the self, you will always be let down, seems the main essence.



I don't pray myself, I see no point, but whilst you are praying for more than what the shabad very simply states, there are those out there who are living it, right now.

This thread is titled living in the truth, I cannot see what is so hard about living in the truth, the shabad you have quoted does not seem particularly hard to understand, it is reasonably simple, is the need to pray to one day understand it a sign of reverse ego? Is it false humility?

You guys talk of the thieves a lot, I get the impression that you do not feel you will start living until you have vanquished every one of the thieves and killed them dead, and then finally, life can begin as a Sikh. My understanding is quite different, to me the thieves are like those fairground games where you have to hit these big plastic furry animals with a mallet, they start off slow and the more you hit them, the more they come out, until they come in ones, twos, threes, and you have no chance of hitting them all at the same time, to me, the thieves need to be understood, to be talked to, to be listened to, to be integrated into life, to be given a useful job, to be used in logistics, but no, you guys want to hit them and hit them hard, but you will never win, and you will spend your lives with that mallet bashing away.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥
गुर परसादी बुझि सचि समाईऐ ॥२०॥
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20||
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20||

Now you guys will see this as some supreme connection to god, where god has been absorbed into you and you are full of grace and godness, I see it as taking on the attributes of god as described in mool mantra, and using that as a template for personality, which gradually becomes easier until you are that template.

I believe in all the points you posted, maybe I was unclear in the other posts , I do believe that this planet(his creation) is real, however its those thieves inside us creating the illusion.

 

[Harry Haller]

I believe in all the points you posted, maybe I was unclear in the other posts , I do believe that this planet(his creation) is real, however its those thieves inside us creating the illusion.

I agree wholeheartedly, all Creation is true, from the sweet smelling rose to the rancid dog turd, all is Creation, all has Creator present, it is only our own interpretation which is skewed by the thieves which sees things as beauty or as rancid, to see all Creation as true, to see the beauty in a dog turd, is what dropping the lenses, to me, is all about.

 

[chazSingh]

S

Creation is that which Creator created, if this shabad is telling you that Creation is false, then it follows that Creator is also false, nowhere in this shabad do I see Creation described as false, it is the world that is false, to wit, the sights, sounds, smells and feelings that are corrupted by the thieves that is false. Creation itself is perfect, it is our own interpretation of this that results in the world that we live in today, it is why when we see a woman in a short skirt and high heels, we think of sex, of lust, not of the woman as a person (from a mans perspective), it is why when we see a flash car, we want to own the car, we feel envy, anger, this has nothing at all to do with Creation, I am surprised you have made such a statement. In fact your statement makes no sense in any fashion as the majority see this type of Creation, this type of world as true through the thief inspired lenses they wear.

The last line of the shabad is particularly important to me,


Does it? It seems quite straightforward to me, if you view the world through desire and the need for the self, you will always be let down, seems the main essence.



I don't pray myself, I see no point, but whilst you are praying for more than what the shabad very simply states, there are those out there who are living it, right now.

This thread is titled living in the truth, I cannot see what is so hard about living in the truth, the shabad you have quoted does not seem particularly hard to understand, it is reasonably simple, is the need to pray to one day understand it a sign of reverse ego? Is it false humility?

You guys talk of the thieves a lot, I get the impression that you do not feel you will start living until you have vanquished every one of the thieves and killed them dead, and then finally, life can begin as a Sikh. My understanding is quite different, to me the thieves are like those fairground games where you have to hit these big plastic furry animals with a mallet, they start off slow and the more you hit them, the more they come out, until they come in ones, twos, threes, and you have no chance of hitting them all at the same time, to me, the thieves need to be understood, to be talked to, to be listened to, to be integrated into life, to be given a useful job, to be used in logistics, but no, you guys want to hit them and hit them hard, but you will never win, and you will spend your lives with that mallet bashing away.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥
गुर परसादी बुझि सचि समाईऐ ॥२०॥
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20||
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20||

Now you guys will see this as some supreme connection to god, where god has been absorbed into you and you are full of grace and godness, I see it as taking on the attributes of god as described in mool mantra, and using that as a template for personality, which gradually becomes easier until you are that template.

nice post ji...

those 5 thieves....grrr
to be honest I didnt think of them that much until I opened gurbani and realised how much they were mentioned. And for the first time started to analyse my own behaviour and thought and realised just how much I was influenced by them and still am...

its crazy because the moment they strike I forget that the poeople I interract with have god in them also..I see just them and me...and I am a different person

thank god were able to see this and evaluate it.

as for living only when they have gone...I think I am living and learning with them a part of me...as I said they show me just exactly when I no longer see god in all and behave like an animal...and through them I have seen the better loving side of me that sees god in the other....I want to know that part of me.

Also want to know the part of me that will not vanquish when this body gives up...the true me...maybe you dont believe we can know that...but I truely believe we can whilst alive

merging in god...know idea what that may be like or what it is...but judging how other parts of gurbani are becoming true..I think it wi be pretty wondrous and amazing...

Thanks for posting harry....appologies if my writing has been bad...typing on my phone

 

[chazSingh]

I agree wholeheartedly, all Creation is true, from the sweet smelling rose to the rancid dog turd, all is Creation, all has Creator present, it is only our own interpretation which is skewed by the thieves which sees things as beauty or as rancid, to see all Creation as true, to see the beauty in a dog turd, is what dropping the lenses, to me, is all about.

Of course my friend that's why I said how our ego has us perceiving creation and reality.


but one thing we cannot get away from is...one day it will all be gone...and what remains is just the formless waheguru...and gurbani says know thyself and you will know Him...

how one goes about trying to know this is obviously open to opinion as we already know

God bless

 

[Harry Haller]

Chazji you were never unmerged with God, none of us were, not even the most base and disgusting individual, I feel it is all down to levels of connection with the truth. If one rapes and pillages, then one has adopted the self as the truth, and justifies everything to the self, if one adopts the truth as the truth, it can be easily seen that rape and pillage are false, in my humble view