To Live In Truth

[chazSingh]

what your implying is that it is correct and true to work for someone, or engage in a business transaction with no expectation of reward. Since when did truthful living mean working for free?

just a state of mind ji...

of course we need money to live...but if promotions, more money is at the forefront of your mind, then that is what your world will become for you...

if service is at the forefront of your mind then that is what you;re doing....service...and your existence revolves around that.

as I am concerned being an employee is nothing more than a business arrangement

because Harry JI, remember the words that you said "i already see God in all"

therefore with whom are you doing this business transaction with?
if you see God in all...why are you trying to do a business transaction with Him?

are you really then seeing God in all?

if you saw God in All...surely you're focus, attention would be on complete service to all knowing God is in all, and all is in God...(even though you are receiving Money for your work...which yes, we do need).

like i said, there are a million and one variations to each scenario and we can discuss over and over about each one...

in the end, me personally, i don't expect nor seek promotions...or more pay rises...my wife and friends think i am bonkers for thinking this way...

i now chose to just work hard and honestly and as truthfully as i can using the skills i have acquired...

and you know...sometimes without even expecting things...people take notice of those qualities...and without even asking for rewards they give them to you...

if i wasnt being treated right...i would say goodbye to my manager thanking for the work He has given me, and i would seek service elsewhere... (in a free society) / in a non free society...of course...once must fight to stop that

quite simples...

 

[Harry Haller]

You shouldn't hate anything, you should realize what is controlling you, and conquer that(I know easy said then done) thats what I believe in. So an enlightened person wouldn't hate sex he would see it pointless beside procreation. He won't get the urge to have sex, since he is controlling the thieves and not opposite. Like I(speaking for myself) are being controlled like marionette by the thieves they are pulling the strings I've no control nor do I have the power to resist it, I see an enlightened person as a person having those strings in his controls.

what a strange opinion, sex is pointless other than procreation? So your suggesting Sikh couples cease sex after they have had kids? Sex is a wonderful way of showing love between two loving people, it can be a wonderful way to connect, since when did Sikhism from on loving sex in a loving relationship?

 

[kggr001]

what a strange opinion, sex is pointless other than procreation? So your suggesting Sikh couples cease sex after they have had kids? Sex is a wonderful way of showing love between two loving people, it can be a wonderful way to connect, since when did Sikhism from on loving sex in a loving relationship?

It's my own view, I don't know how Sikhism sees it, it also depends on the individual, like I believe if someone is pulling his own strings then yes it's pointless, if you think about it. Since your pulling the strings where the urge will come frome? This is what I meant with becoming the very image of lord himself, you are in a human body but your consciousness is on a complete different level it's one with the lord, where one can tell no difference between servent and lord himself, You hardly would think about small things like sex.

 

[Harry Haller]

of course we need money to live...but if promotions, more money is at the forefront of your mind, then that is what your world will become for you...

if you are true, with true thoughts then it would not be, you would just be focused on the truth, with true intentions

if service is at the forefront of your mind then that is what you;re doing....service...and your existence revolves around that.

If service is the truth at that given time then that would be fine

because Harry JI, remember the words that you said "i already see God in all"

I do, but I am also aware that the self exists in all too, if God asks me for service I will give it, if the self asks me I may not, allow me to explain

if a beggar asks me for food, I will get him food, if a beggar asks me for booze, I will not, that is the difference between using your brain to decipher what is true and what is not, only a fool gives without using discretion, sense.

if you see God in all...why are you trying to do a business transaction with Him?

I only do business transactions with the self, and even then I attempt to be still be true.

are you really then seeing God in all?

absolutely, seeing god in all does not by default turn you into a doormat. I do not give everyone everything they want from me, it is knowing what is true and what is not.

if you saw God in All...surely you're focus, attention would be on complete service to all knowing God is in all, and all is in God...(even though you are receiving Money for your work...which yes, we do need).

like i said, there are a million and one variations to each scenario and we can discuss over and over about each one...

We can discuss all of them, the truth is the truth, some intelligence is needed to sort out what is true and what is false, with those that are true, with true statements, I am happy to let my guard down, I will serve selflessly, but not all is true, and not all statements are true, at this time vigilance is called for, just because someone swears on a holy book they mean you no harm don't actually make it so.

in the end, me personally, i don't expect nor seek promotions...or more pay rises...my wife and friends think i am bonkers for thinking this way...

ah right, you leave it all to good old goddy! he will make sure you are looked after, he knows whats good for you, he will look after you, well good luck with that one, the god I believe in does not intervene, if you draw a line from your thinking, then its best to get by on the minimum, do the best you can and leave the rest to god right?

 

[chazSingh]

what a strange opinion, sex is pointless other than procreation? So your suggesting Sikh couples cease sex after they have had kids? Sex is a wonderful way of showing love between two loving people, it can be a wonderful way to connect, since when did Sikhism from on loving sex in a loving relationship?

i think you'll find he's talking about 'an enlightened person'. A 'sikh' is not an enlightened being as described in Gurbani...A sikh is on his way to that state of being..
sex is what it is....to procreate...that is the sole reason for it to be there...when two people share love and their commitment to each other and create a child...

of course, in this age we have condoms so we enjoy the feelings of sex with one another and that feeling of love and connection and not have to worry about kids...and providing it remains in a loving relation then fine...

but what if you were in a place where contraception wasn't readily available...and didn't want a child...would you be able to refrain from having sex...and able to find other ways to connect and share your love?

we know from many places in the world...that people cannot control that urge...and what do you get, overpopulation...families with kids they didnt want, and kids they cannot look after.

that would be the true test of control over 5 thieves...

 

[Harry Haller]

It's my own view, I don't know how Sikhism sees it, it also depends on the individual, like I believe if someone is pulling his own strings then yes it's pointless, if you think about it. Since your pulling the strings where the urge will come frome? This is what I meant with becoming the very image of lord himself, you are in a human body but your consciousness is on a complete different level it's one with the lord, where one can tell no difference between servent and lord himself, You hardly would think about small things like sex.

Ah my apologies, throughout our conversations I assumed you were following the Sikh view, not your own view, also we differ slightly on end game, clearly you wish enlightenment, I have no interest in such, just truthful living is enough for me

what will you do when you achieve this Vedic like state?

 

[Harry Haller]

i think you'll find he's talking about 'an enlightened person'. A 'sikh' is not an enlightened being as described in Gurbani...A sikh is on his way to that state of being..
sex is what it is....to procreate...that is the sole reason for it to be there...when two people share love and their commitment to each other and create a child...

of course, in this age we have condoms so we enjoy the feelings of sex with one another and that feeling of love and connection and not have to worry about kids...and providing it remains in a loving relation then fine...

but what if you were in a place where contraception wasn't readily available...and didn't want a child...would you be able to refrain from having sex...and able to find other ways to connect and share your love?

we know from many places in the world...that people cannot control that urge...and what do you get, overpopulation...families with kids they didnt want, and kids they cannot look after.

that would be the true test of control over 5 thieves...

My wife is going through the menopause, I do not self abuse, nor do I look at porn, sex is near impossible, do I pass your test?

 

[kggr001]

Ah my apologies, throughout our conversations I assumed you were following the Sikh view, not your own view, also we differ slightly on end game, clearly you wish enlightenment, I have no interest in such, just truthful living is enough for me

what will you do when you achieve this Vedic like state?

Haha yes I follow mostly Sikhism and partly Buddhism beliefs also if something from other religions make sense to me I also do accept that, I've been raised as a christian however been vegetarian for almost my entire live, which attracted me to eastern religions.

Also I hardly can say what I will do when I'm in that state, since I'm no where close to that

 

[Harry Haller]

Haha yes I follow mostly Sikhism and partly Buddhism beliefs, raised as a christian however been vegetarian for almost my entire live, which attracted me to eastern religions.

Also I hardly can say what I will do when I'm in that state, since I'm no where close to that

do you know what happens when you install two antivirus packages on the same computer? They conflict with each other and leave you open to infection, the system also slows down to a crawl.

I commend you on wishing to better yourself at such a young age, I hope you find the truth

 

[chazSingh]

Haha yes I follow mostly Sikhism and partly Buddhism beliefs also if something from other religions make sense to me I also do accept that, I've been raised as a christian however been vegetarian for almost my entire live, which attracted me to eastern religions.

Also I hardly can say what I will do when I'm in that state, since I'm no where close to that

but what is a Vedic like state that Harry Ji is referring to?

Harry Ji, please explain what this state is...there are many references to the state of the god conscious being in Gurbani (although this cannot truly be described, gurbani has given us a lot of insight with which to reflect upon)...and our Guru's Ji's came across many as such from many different backgrounds...

A Lot of Truth also exists in other paths....it's the egotistical fools that corrupt that truth and mould it into something that can be sold...

 

[kggr001]

Like someone here mentioned before, Sikhism didn't come out sky it was Guru's inner(spirtual) experience and outer experience with the others they even traveled alot in search for truth. I'm also doing that what makes sense to me, and I believe it to be right, thats what I believe in 0 .
This is also the main reason, I'm here on this forum looking for truth.

 

[kggr001]

ChazSingh ji, I think he is reffering to enlightened person, being the very image of the lord.

 

[Harry Haller]

but what is a Vedic like state that Harry Ji is referring to?

Harry Ji, please explain what this state is...there are many references to the state of the god conscious being in Gurbani (although this cannot truly be described, gurbani has given us a lot of insight with which to reflect upon)...and our Guru's Ji's came across many as such from many different backgrounds...

A Lot of Truth also exists in other paths....it's the egotistical fools that corrupt that truth and mould it into something that can be sold...

Sikhism, in my view, is different to other religions in that I believe it to be a way of life, rather than a religion, I believe that corruption and misinterpretation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has led us back to exactly the point that Guru Nanakji wished us to stay clear off, namely, pointless rituals, superstitions, caste system, the belief that your spiritual integrity is somehow linked with what you eat, or how many times you have sex, how long you meditate for, what your chosen word is that you meditate on, these are all Vedic practices that belong in the Hindu religion. The Hindu religion is a wonderful religion, but if you wish to follow it, become a Hindu! The problem we have is Sikhism is just too damn boring! No celestial stuff, no naughty stories, (other than the DG), no meditation, and no becoming a superman with super celestial powers. I do not believe that any of the Gurus had celestial or super powers, I believe they were all true but hugely enlightened.

Sikhism also has its roots firmly in living, living as a family person, married, with a sex life, with a car, a job, able to deal with money, people, just by following the path of truth, not aversion. Denying yourself is a Vedic practice, as is sitting on a mountain top meditating, withdrawing from the world, Sikhs love the world, but aim to see it without the veil of wants, desires, lusts, that is not to say one should not want, or desire or even lust, but know what is true and what is not.

That is my take on it, and my take only

 

[kggr001]

Everyone has his/her own believes, and everyone has his/her own interpretation of what living in truth means. I think this thread leads to nowhere, we are kinda running in circles

 

[Harry Haller]

Everyone has his/her own believes, and everyone has his/her own interpretation of what living in truth means. I think this thread leads to nowhere

and do you why know why that is? because there is no standard for the truth, nothing to measure it by, sure we have universal truths like gravity, but on the whole, the truth is open completely, as a society, we put on pedestals today those whom we hung yesterday, the truth changes with time, but each step we get a bit closer, the world is a truer place than it was 100 years ago, look at the advancement in sexuality, in race. Equality for all is becoming the norm, as the world races towards the truth, however, I have a heartfelt belief that there exists a truth, a universal truth in how to behave, how to think, how to speak in any given situation, the right thing, the true thing, it is the truth that is the name of God, and in my opinion it is the truth we worship.

 

[chazSingh]

Sikhism, in my view, is different to other religions in that I believe it to be a way of life, rather than a religion, I believe that corruption and misinterpretation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has led us back to exactly the point that Guru Nanakji wished us to stay clear off, namely, pointless rituals, superstitions, caste system, the belief that your spiritual integrity is somehow linked with what you eat, or how many times you have sex, how long you meditate for, what your chosen word is that you meditate on, these are all Vedic practices that belong in the Hindu religion. The Hindu religion is a wonderful religion, but if you wish to follow it, become a Hindu! The problem we have is Sikhism is just too damn boring! No celestial stuff, no naughty stories, (other than the DG), no meditation, and no becoming a superman with super celestial powers. I do not believe that any of the Gurus had celestial or super powers, I believe they were all true but hugely enlightened.

Sikhism also has its roots firmly in living, living as a family person, married, with a sex life, with a car, a job, able to deal with money, people, just by following the path of truth, not aversion. Denying yourself is a Vedic practice, as is sitting on a mountain top meditating, withdrawing from the world, Sikhs love the world, but aim to see it without the veil of wants, desires, lusts, that is not to say one should not want, or desire or even lust, but know what is true and what is not.

That is my take on it, and my take only

great post...you raise some very good points, and i agree wholeheartedly on many of them...


But i think you are basically saying that through sikhi no one can have a true experience of God (an undeniable personal experience of God) whilst alive in this life...within themselves (like Gurbani so clearly says)....lets be honest, you've made it very clear that's what you believe...and that is the exact opposite to what Gurbani says...end of.

Because lets face it...that would undeniably be downright crazy...airy fair, hocus pokus kinda stuff...the world would laugh at such a person... lol

I Thank God/Gurbani/Guru JI that everything Guru Ji says is absolutely True...because like many people on this forum have realised through the Grace of Guru...

God CAN be realized within oneself....and it is pretty wacky stuff...but only to the one that doesn't believe...to the one that does, they have come across something so Wondrous within them that they cannot even describe in words...

Call them Wacky...Call them stupid...that is fine...because Gurbani also states that the world will call them crazy...

and they are crazy...crazy in love with the only thing that will remain and forever exist...

Gosh...i'm soo damn crazy...and i love being crazy...
the truth seeker will always follow his heart when the people around him/her label their search for God as Vedic (i still dont know what that is), mystical nonsense, hocus pokus, airy fairy, ...and they don't really mind because Guru Ji also tells us that will happen lol Guru JI seems to know everything...could Guru Ji really be the 'Searcher of all hearts...the knower of everything" ... this is getting way to wacky to even hold a straight face lol (sarcasm)

one last thing on the truth seeker, the truth seeker will always continue to inspire others to do the same...to seek the truth

God Bless Ji...

 

[chazSingh]

Everyone has his/her own believes, and everyone has his/her own interpretation of what living in truth means. I think this thread leads to nowhere, we are kinda running in circles

I agree...i think i will continue basing my thoughts on what Gurbani Says

god bless you on your journey through sikhi Ji...i've enjoyed reading your posts...and i can sense a great deal of thirst in you to find and experience this truth (whatever that means for you)...i'm pretty sure you will/are already having this experience..

God Bless

 

[Harry Haller]

But i think you are basically saying that through sikhi no one can have a true experience of God (an undeniable personal experience of God) whilst alive in this life...within themselves (like Gurbani so clearly says)....lets be honest, you've made it very clear that's what you believe...and that is the exact opposite to what Gurbani says...end of.

I think we have spent the day getting to know one another on this thread, its been good, I have enjoyed it, although you are wrong about me, I think the highest personal experience one can have of God is to be true and in consonance with your surroundings, when one can be this, then one has finally found God, and all the bliss that Gurbani describes.

 

[gur_meet]

I mentioned in my post today that Shabads . Here are some where gurbani explains that meeting the true one Sach (truth) is what one becomes.

ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਚੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਸਚ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
Sach Milai Sach Oopajai Sach Mehi Saach Samaae ||
Meeting the True One, Truth wells up. The truthful are absorbed into the True Lord.
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਤਿ ਊਗਵੈ ਗੁਰਬਚਨੀ ਭਉ ਖਾਇ ॥
Surath Hovai Path Oogavai Gurabachanee Bho Khaae ||
Intuitive understanding is obtained and one is welcomed with honor, through the Guru's Word, filled with the Fear of God.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੦॥
Naanak Sachaa Paathisaahu Aapae Leae Milaae ||4||10|| O Nanak, the True King absorbs us into Himself. ||4||10||
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੮ ਪੰ. ੩ page 18

ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੈ ਸੋ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥
Jis Anthar Preeth Lagai So Mukathaa ||
Those whose inner beings are attached to the Lord's Love are liberated.
ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਵਸਿ ਸਚ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥
Eindhree Vas Sach Sanjam Jugathaa ||
They control their sexual desires, and their lifestyle is the self-discipline of Truth.
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਏ ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥
Gur Kai Sabadh Sadhaa Har Dhhiaaeae Eaehaa Bhagath Har Bhaavaniaa ||7||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, they meditate forever on the Lord. This devotional worship is pleasing to the Lord. ||7| ਮਾਝ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੨ page 122


ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸਚ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਸੂਚਾ ॥
Sathigur Miliai Sach Sanjam Soochaa ||
Meeting the True Guru, one becomes truthful, chaste and pure.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪਉੜੀ ਊਚੋ ਊਚਾ ॥
Gur Kee Pourree Oocho Oochaa ||
Climbing up the steps of the Guru's Path, one becomes the highest of the high.
ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਮੂਚਾ ॥੩॥ Karam Milai Jam Kaa Bho Moochaa ||3||
When the Lord grants His Mercy, the fear of death is conquered. ||3||
ਗਉੜੀ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੫੩ page 153


Now to the TOPIC.


From what I observe this discussion is in a loop. How can it proceed without the light of Gurbani. What I feel is any discussion to be fruitful in understanding gurbani's message and guidance should have basis in gurbani with prior reflection.
A general discussion would be just an exchange of views.

 

[gur_meet]

Harry ji is right in saying that gurbani does not bar a Sikh to live an householders life despite cautioning repeatedly about the entanglement of worldly life. But at the same time says :

ਸਚਿ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ Sach Simariai Hovai Paragaas ||
Remembering the True Lord in meditation, one is enlightened.
ਤਾ ਤੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥
Thaa Thae Bikhiaa Mehi Rehai Oudhaas ||
Then, in the midst of Maya, he remains detached.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਐਸੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
Sathigur Kee Aisee Vaddiaaee ||
Such is the Glory of the True Guru;
ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
Puthr Kalathr Vichae Gath Paaee ||2||
In the midst of children and spouses, they attain emancipation. ||2||
ਧਨਾਸਰੀ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੬੬੧ Page 661

The caution is to listen and act on what guru says.


I think there should be a separate clarifying discussion on meditation. This word is used by the translators and is causing confusion.