Japji Translation Questions

Discussion in 'Jup Banee' started by Ishna, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. findingmyway

    findingmyway Writer SPNer Supporter

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    Dear yayati ji,
    Thank you for sharing your very thoughtful essay. On www.searchgurbani.com the meaning of soch in the line under question is also thinking. However, 30 other quotes are given with teh same word and the translation is given as clean/cleanliness for many as thinking doesnt fit in so the verb soch for clean does exist. I have given the page numbers of a selection of these quotes with the translation from that website (I don't always agree with the English translation) so if anyone wants to look and comment further, I would love to hear your thoughts. This is a fantastic learning exercise. Is it possible that soch means both things so both concepts are tackled by Guru Ji in one go? :happykaur:

    Ang 59 Line 4 Sri Raag: Guru Nanak Dev
    ਕਾਇਆ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਿਆਰ ॥
    kaaeiaa soch n paaeeai bin har bhagath piaar ||
    The body does not obtain purity without loving devotion to the Lord.

    Ang 265 Line 17 Raag Gauri Sukhmanee: Guru Arjan Dev
    ਸੋਚ ਕਰੈ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਤਿ ॥
    soch karai dhinas ar raath ||
    You may practice cleansing day and night,


    Ang 495 Line 12 Raag Goojree: Guru Arjan Dev
    ਅਨਿਕ ਸੋਚ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅੰਧਿਆਰੀ ॥੩॥
    anik soch karehi dhin raathee bin sathigur andhhiaaree ||3||
    and performs all the rituals of purification day and night, still, without the True Guru, there is only darkness. ||3||


    Ang 903 Line 3 Raag Raamkali: Guru Nanak Dev
    ਨਾਵਹੁ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਚ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
    naavahu dhhovahu thilak charraavahu such vin soch n hoee ||6||
    You may bathe and wash, and apply a ritualistic tilak mark to your forehead, but without inner purity, there is no understanding. ||6||


    Ang 905 Line 10 Raag Raamkali: Guru Nanak Dev
    ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਚਾ ਕਿਆ ਸੋਚ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
    man nehee soochaa kiaa soch kareejai ||
    His mind is not pure, so what is the use of performing ritual cleansings?


    Ang 1229 Line 15 Raag Sarang: Guru Arjan Dev
    ਮਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਸੋਚ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਕਰਤ ॥
    man anik soch pavithr karath ||
    and purify your mind in various ways,


    Ang 1266 Line 7 Raag Malar: Guru Arjan Dev
    ਕਰੀ ਪਾਕਸਾਲ ਸੋਚ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਏ ॥੨॥
    karee paakasaal soch pavithraa hun laavahu bhog har raaeae ||2||
    I have made my kitchen pure and sacred. Now, O my Sovereign Lord King, please sample my food. ||2||
     
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  2. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga SPNer Supporter

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    FINDINGMYWAYS
    DIVINE GREETINGS,
    If we are convinced that there is no grammer of Gurbaani language then any interpretation is fully justified.But if we feel that there is definite pattern of Grammer in the Gurbaani language then the situation is different.
    Any how I am not aware if there can be any language without grammer particular reference of SGGS ji.I find that even QuRAN language has definite pattern of Grammer .You may find a special time in Q TV programme exclusive devoted to the Grammer of QURAN language.I find people in Q TV programme taking positive view of such programme.
    This is just for your information only
    with best wishes
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  3. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga SPNer Supporter

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    NAAM Ji.
    Divine Greetings,
    I would request to mention the reference Page No of SGGS ji about your quote unabling me to go thru this,
    With thanks
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan Mentor Writer SPNer

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    We have to look at the word and how its spellt.......is it SOCH..or SO(i)CH or SOCH(u)....then we will see the difference. Gurbani uses such Gramattical MARKERS for clarity...and we have to use them for the purpose they are there...
     
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  5. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga SPNer Supporter

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    GIANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji
    WAHi GUROO Ji Ka Khalsa
    WAHi GUROO Ji Ki Fateh
    I fully appreciate your views when making meanings of Gurbaani words. A proper knowledge of Gurbaani words can only be the guidance for knowing the correct meaning of Gurbaani.
    With regards
    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Parkash Singh bagga Ji, Gurfateh.

    Yes Ji..Gurbani is..agaadh bodh...as deep as the ocean...its written in a script..it has words humans use..its message is Divine.. its on paper ( other mediums now)..the langauge vocabulary semantics etc part cna be studied..the divine part can only be experienced...just as the depths of the oceans can be accessed as deep as one can go..surface anyone can delve in (BUT knowledge of SWIMMING is a MUST..so is KNOWLEDGE of GURMUKHI/PUNJABI a MUST !!..and just as one can "swim" with aids...one can also learn from TRANSLATIONS !!...) then an experienced swimmer can go deeper..at certian depths one needs breathing aids..yet deeper submarines..etc etc..
    GURBANI is also something like that...and it feels GOOD..real GOOD...and its said...a MUTE cannot say out loud how good the sweetmeats he just ate...we all are MUTES wheere Gurbani experiences are involved...each has his own stage of MUTENESS !!
    Thank you for a meaningful discussion...sincerely Jarnail
     
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  7. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Very nice gyani ji we all cam learn /read / sing the gurbani BUT there are only a few that have the divine expreance which ONLY comes through NAAM abass which is what we all need to do the most
     
  8. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Parkash ji I am only a humble servant of the lord and hope one day the lord will except me as a servant and that he keeps me as a servant
    The quote is from Asa di var " Nirv BHO NARUNK KAR SAC NAAM JA KA SGAL JAHAN"
    NIRBO.....BO NA NAHI MAYA VICH
    If you look at the other pori in the asa di var it gives example of how Maya captures us
    Kolo Charka chaki chak thal varola latoo mathania ............
    All the things spin round and round but this is how MAYA is
    God does NOT Spin in this MAYA
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan Mentor Writer SPNer

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    DIWALI is around the corner...MILLIONS of SIKHS will be happily SPINNING on the Merry Go Round of MAYA !!! Be aware....SIKHS DONT WORSHIP MAYA !!!

    2. Naam ji..to my tuchh understanding..Naam Abhiyaas is PRACTISE of Naam to change our daily lives....so we SHINE from WITHIN with the Raang of Naam...:blueturban::happysingh:
     
  10. jasi

    jasi SPNer

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    SS AKAL JI.

    Sochai soch na huvia ,je soche lakh var

    ritual purifications though performed million time may not purify man's soul

    chupe chup na hovia ,je laaia raha liv tar
    even though one be silent and remain absorbed,silence of mind is not obtained

    bhukihan bhukh na utree,ja banna purrea bhar

    hunger of hungry who crave more and more is not appeased not,even if they posses the goods
    of entire world

    sehas siannppa lakh hoia ta ek na chalai nal
    Man may posses thousands and millions of wits,shall not accompany to self to next world.

    kiv sachiarra hovia kiv koorre tute paal

    how can be true and how can this screen of untruthful be demolished


    hukam rajai chalnna Nanak likhia nal 1
    Sat Guru Nanak says that truth is realized through obedience to his order and will.


    Jaspi



     
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  11. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Gyani ji you are 100% right MAYA is around us and yes we do need tp partice this as satgurus "Hokam" guru sate guru KA Jo sikh akahe so bhal ka ottaw har naam dhavaa......"
    We have jumpped the gun as they say in English instead of obeying our guru we have munmath ruling today gurubani is an ocean granted some shabads are easy to understand but understanding them from the gurus point is a different "ranng"ONLY true meanings can be attained this way not to forget it is an ocean the higher in spritial we are the deeper we understand thus the need on naam
    Abass first

    Humble servant
     
  12. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    I found it helpfully www. Sabadvartara.org
     
  13. charanjit

    charanjit SPNer

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    Ishna,

    It appears to me that you have firstly accepted the translations of others, and having missed on that occasion, you ask of others the meaning of the words, and again you miss, you accept their authority and their understanding, and have none of your own.

    Debate issues not personalities.

    Comments that were quite rude have been deleted. Please debate issues and refrain from demeaning members who ask questions. The gurmat way is through discussion and "parchar" and not through acting as an independent authority. The translations and opinions discussed so far have in many cases been backed up with the work of scholars who have dedicated lifetimes to teaching the panth. Their seva is something to celebrate, not denigrate. Thank you.

    If ever there was a revolutionary it may have been Nanak. (Referring to him as Nanak I expect that creates within you some resentment and contempt for this writer - why should such a thing occur?? Nanak is only a word, and the word is not the thing, yet for these words that you hold so dear to yourselves, you are willing to defend and fight for - Nanak is not the thing).

    He was a revolutionary in that he negated all that he knew. His faith, perhaps Hinduism, the history of Islam in India, the family the wife the motehr the father. And only by ridding himself of everything perhaps he found something.

    However, you and I will never come across, what Nanak may have come across. You are here stuck in words, we are stuck in words, translation and therefore shall never experience. From the word we have a certain reaction, and create an image, this image comes only from our experience, this image is created by thinking and thought. Your thought is based on your experience, everything that you think, relates back to what you know, and then is translated. Just as when you say the words "Waheguru" - along comes your imagination, you repeat those words and create within yourself a longing to be reunited with the source from which you believe you came, however your thinking and your experience is limited. By the repitition of the words Waheguru, all you are doing is creating an experience and then say how wonderful that was...you simply fool yourself.

    Nanak on the other hand was a revolutionary. He put aside all that he knew.

    Personally I feel that he was talking about thinking, and thought, that thought is limited and to see anything new, the old must be put aside.

    If Nanak was around at the present, if he is any much of that revolutionary, he too would put aside this so called Sikhism that you people have created, in order to find the real.

    Sochai soch na hovee is the greatest part of the Jap Ji - in my opinion. As this goes to the crux of everything. To me he seems to be saying that you may read all this prayer, however you will translate it according to your experience and thinking/thought, and soon as you do that everything goes out of the window, all your endeavours, all your repititions of this silly word Vaheguru. I can assure you that you can create the same pleasure from the repitition of the word Coca Cola as that of Vaheguru - it is all your mind.

    I generally write this with some hesitation, as this will certainly offend people and create greater confusion. I reconsider whether to post this, but I think I will. My actions today have been a result of my thinking, and having acted according to my reactions, which are caused by thinking, and thinking will always be limited, and hence this will cause some people upset.

    The general gist is find out for yourself, Nanak did. If you now follow him, I mean supposedly follow him according to your reading, your knowledge he can only lead you to his truth, another man's truth is not truth.

    Take care,

    Charanjit
     
  14. findingmyway

    findingmyway Writer SPNer Supporter

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    Your words are unnecessarily harsh. Without looking at different translations whether they be in English, Panjabi or another language, it is difficult to come to your own understanding. I don't think anyone here has taken anything at face value and that is the beauty if having this discussion. Hearing different points of view, helps someone with understanding and that approach should be encourraged not ridiculed. You have also added your opinion so are you saying you are an authority? Who can decide who is blind and who has understanding? We can only claim our own understanding, to claim more is egotostical. To ridicule others for their quest for understanding is unfair.


    There is a universal truth. How can truth change for different people? The Guru Granth Sahib Ji leads us to that truth and Guru Nanak Dev Ji started that process. Taking guidance from the Guru will allow someone to 'find out for themself' as folllowing the Guru is not easy and requires much thought and change in behaviour.

    I'm sorry if I have misunderstood what you are trying to say.
     
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  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin 1947-2014 (Archived) SPNer Supporter

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    To the disgruntled

    Every now an then it is important to remember that the purpose of any forum is discussion. Discussion is impossible without words. Communication is impossible without sharing ideas, experiences, and opinions that are bridged through the use of words. This holds true whether Sochai soch na hovee refers to thought or to purity. And until we have perfected the art of communicating without words, discussion will suffice.

    So please honor the right of every forum member to ask questions and seek the opinions of others. It is pretentious to deny that right to someone else. Of course free expression is also limited by the need to observe forum etiquette. Debate issues not personalities. spnadmin
     
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  16. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    It is difficult for me to respond without getting personal so I'll just keep my fingers off the keys.

    Suffice it to say that when words are used to claim words are useless, I fail to understand the logic.
     
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  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Ishna Ji..
    It can be done..takes lots of paitience and practice...
    and about words used to defame words...well some of us stand in front of the mirror and blame the mirror for the ugly "image" we see !! words are the mirror of our soul....Mitthat neevven Nanaka gunn chnagiyaahn tatt....Nanak LOVES the sweet tongued humility..its the Basic Gunn underlying all the GOOD !! A true quality of a SANT/BRAHMGYANI is never harsh word..never a single grunt/furrow on forehead..red eye..anger..not the slightest hint of annoyance...always sweet humble..lower than the lowest...it sure takes a lot of patience sehaj and practise..thats why the SGGS is 1429 pages long and not shorter...
     
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  18. jasi

    jasi SPNer

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    SS AKAL JI.

    I think when any Shabad or Shabds are spoken by our tongue wrong or right is the results of our struggle inside our mind which each of us justify by core thoughts residing in our sub-conscious by negative or positive perceptions our daily life style living according to Sikhism preachings.

    It is clearly understood that one should practice what is being preached.

    When, we all watch practices of our life styles according to Sikhism in our family and places of worships are not in coordination with Guru's ji preachings , a negative perceptions is born by growing generations.

    Guru Ji taught us to be practical in our life style not by BLIND FAITH . First develop understanding about WAHEGURU BY UNDERSTANDING GURBANI WHICH FURTHER LEADS US TO ULTIMATE TRUTH.

    Gurbani is WONDROUS path to realize the TRUTH as per perching of our Gurus by understanding the SHABADs blessed us by our gurus.

    Boles (words) spoken in sweeten tone can make a huge differences in interacting with each other which leads us to better understandings.Translations by many learned scholars are in place after so much time spent for their research to understand the SHABAD in Gurbani to introduce their thoughts without any criticism to the previous translations done.

    Mutual respect by respecting each others ideas without getting offended hasa made this forum a wonderful stage to exchange our views by avoiding all kinds of egoism.

    One's negative thinking could be good for him and others good thinking can be negative for others.

    That is the way our world exist to exchange our views but TRUTH will never change.

    Patience to hear opponents views with positive understanding are often leads to ultimate TRUTH.

    Jaspi.
     
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  19. kds1980

    kds1980 SPNer

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    Well The other side of story That it is also an art used by very clever persons.They show their one face to society ,but there other personality is quite different
     
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  20. jasi

    jasi SPNer

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    SS AKAL JI.

    Positive perceptions bring wondrous results than negative perceptions.Each person when they expressed their feelings it is wrong or right are the real perceptions they carry.

    But TRUTH remains intact.

    Jaspi
     

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