Japji Translation Questions

Discussion in 'Jup Banee' started by Ishna, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. Balkar Singh

    Balkar Singh SPNer

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    Yes Khalsa Jio,
    The condemning of the ritual bathing is the right meaning of this verse.
     
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  2. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Great somebody finally agrees withe
    There more then one " karm" the Sikhs are doing but I guess one worst one is when in our own ardass they have add " guru sahabi da Sikha nu Sri amrit sahib da darshun eshnan" we they say infront of the Granth ji the total opposite to it's teaching
    This is mucking the principles of the Granth ji
     
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan Mentor Writer SPNer

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    EXACTLY and so aptly put Naam ji...
    And not only vis a vis " sucham bathing in sarovars"...also
    WHEN Singhs Sing AARTEE to SGGS..bring thals and lamps and throw flowers on SGGS...and what the SHABADS say is DIRECTLY OPPOSITE to the actions of these aartee singers....akin to Slapping a persons FACE in Public repeatedly and proclaiming..WE LOVE YOU..we love you so much....OH Guru Ji we really LOVE YOU...
    SO many other Karamkaands singhs do in Gurdwara right in front of SGGS..which the GURBANI CONDEMNS OUTRIGHT and so clearly !!!When will we ever learn ?? if we do...
     
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  4. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Thank you please keep these furms alive with gurus message
    As this is what sikhi is lacking and that is why we have so much karm kand
    God bless you
    Please go here as I did
    Www. Sabadvartara.org
     
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  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Naam ji,

    Guru Fateh and well said.

    Please check some past threads regarding Ardaas on this forum and share your thoughts with us. The threads that talk about Sikhi never grow old. They are like the Nitnem and should not be forgotten to collect dust.

    Your insights will revive these threads and will also help others who have not read them. And may be what some of us who have posted in these threads may see it through a different light and share that experience with the Sadh Sangat because Sikhi is all about learning,unlearning and relearning daily. If this were not the case then doing Nitnem would be one more futile ritual.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  6. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Tejwant ji
    Thanks for the feed back I will check these as soon as possible but just to touch on nitnam you are right it is another karm kand IF you JUST read it foe the sake
    If you read it to find the way to god then you will gain overtime you read the bani weather it be the jap bani or any other shabad
    In the granth more then 23 lines condem the "just reading" of gurbani because the pandths did this and all the teachings are against this karm kand just on example you can find the rest
    Just one humble request do you refer the sangth in the guruthwaras as sad sangth it is just "sangth" there is a di

    "path parao or vadth vicharo nival phojagum satha panch Jana saao na chotko maa keha KARM anamka
    This salad is by mala 5
    Just one humble request ...do not refer the sangth in the guruthwaras as sad sangth it is "justs sangth" there is a difference between Sad Sangth and sangth
     
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  7. amarjit chahal

    amarjit chahal SPNer

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    My humble view about the line is as under.

    To understand the meaning of this line properly we have to look at the whole stanza composed by Guru Nanak in the very beginning of Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS). The primary question before the Indian men of religion was how to achieve oneness with the almighty creator. Guru Nanak raises the question how to obliterate the wall of falsehood between man and the creator and how to be truthful and have an ethical living.

    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥

    Now various methods were suggested to achieve that goal. One of them was to make oneself clean by bathing at sacred places like particular rivers or some particular stations and places of pilgrimage. Guru Nanak condemns that. He says one’s mind does not become clean even by performing ablutions to cleanse the body hundreds of thousands of time.

    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥

    This interpretation is further confirmed by the context. The Guru in the next couple of lines refers to other methods propagated by the traditional religion to achieve purity and also rejects them.

    The translation offered by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and several others on that line is plainly not the correct one. They translate ਸੋਚੈ as the act of thinking which is not the real meaning here. Here ਸੋਚੈ means the process of cleansing or ablution. The translation by Dr. McLeod, in this sense is nearer the correct meaning, but his allusion to ‘being known through ritual purity’ is again beyond the mark as ‘being known’ is not the object being referred to here by Guru Nanak.


    Thanks!
    Amarjit s. chahal
     
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  8. hpsarna

    hpsarna SPNer

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    the fomer explnation is the correct one as the word soch comes from sanskrit word suchita meaning purity and the word soch has been used in Shri Guru Granth Sahib At Many other place with same meaning
     
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  9. amarjit chahal

    amarjit chahal SPNer

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    Thank to mr. aman singh, spnadmin and tejwant singh for appreciation.
    And to mr.spsarna
    amarjit chahal
     
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  10. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    I would like to recomend this movie which is based on exactly on what each religion is doing it is called " The Message"
    You will see how the "maca" is ruled be the greedy so called religious leader just the our guruthwaras are lead by these pujari tola
    I would love to here commits on this
     
  11. yayati

    yayati SPNer

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    yayati Ji, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji Ki Fateh!!
    Editorial (by SPN'er Ishna): Here's a question from the first line after Mul Mantar:
    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ
    Soc
    ai soc na hova▫ī je socī lak vār.
    The English translation by H. McLeod (and another I have but don't have the author with me) translates the above as:
    "Never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times."
    Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and the majority of other translations I've seen translate it like this:
    "By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times."
    So my questions is: which translation is right? And how can there be such discrepancy between translations?

    Ishna ji,

    Guru fateh

    Madan g gandhi in his close translation of this Pauri interpreted soc as thinking though suggested the other meaning too i.e. ritual cleansing in poetic rendering and annotation. This is evident from the following extract from the book Guru Nanak's Japuji:The Celestial Ladder

    The extract



    first step
     
    1. By thinking He cannot be known even if we may think of Him a million times.
    2. By practice of silence, even to the point of total self-immersion, we may not attain the State of No-mind or know Him.
    3. Un-appeased be our hunger for Truth even if we were to acquire innumerable worlds.
    4. Vain be millions of man-made devices or items of worldly wisdom, for none of them goes with us to the hereafter.
    5. How then can we become the True One? How the veil of falsehood can be rent apart?
    6. Only by walking in the Light of His Order-Will.
    7. O Nanak, know ye, it is inscribed within everyone’s being.


    Poetic Rendering
    Neither through intellect
    Nor wisdom, nor wealth
    Norausterities,nor silence
    Can ever be peace achieved
    Or God realized!
    Try youmay
    A hundred thousand time,!
    Nor through rituals
    Purity is attained
    Even if one were to cleanse
    A hundred thousand time
    Wealthloads of possessions
    Sate not one’s hunger for Truth
    Of countless clever devices
    Not even one accompanies
    To avail in the hereafter
    Obedience to the Divine Will
    Only holds the key, says Nanak.

    Annotation

    Soche Soch Na Hovai Je Sochi Lakh Var
    Soch in the Bani implies both thinking or contemplation and cleansing or purificatory rituals including Yajnas, penances, ablutions, bathing at Holy Places of Pilgrimages. One meaning is "Not by thought alone can He be known, though one think, a hundred thousand time" and the other is "Not by ritual purification can the purity be attained, even if one were to cleanse a hundred thousand times."
    Chupai chup na hovaee, je laae rehaa liv-taar
    Silence, long and deep, as practised by ascetics called Munis for whom prolonged silence is a way of spiritual discipline, of conserving energy so essential for spiritual advancement.
    Bhukhiaa bhukh na utree, je bannaa pureeaa bhaar.
    Hunger for materialistic pursuits knows no satiety
    Sahas siaanpaa lakh hohe,ta ik Na chalai naal.
    Flights of Intellect, various clever devices and stratagems avail one not in the hereafter.


    Clarifying this query from the traslator eminent scholar Late Mohan Singh Diwana in his foreword to The Celestial LADDER wrote IN 1980 as under:

    "Let me here emphasis that I have achieved anything I have achieved is not by soche i.e. by thinking again and again over the knotty points of the Japu-it is only by living Japu more intensely i.e. ......by listening to its recitation by myself attentively and constantly praying for the flow of Hazre-karam or Nazar and Karam into me. Incidentally there is no such verb in Panjabi as soc, to be clean, to be pure. Panjabi has only two words of Sanskrit origin and which are used with the auxiliary verbs or the Panjabi never uses the word. It will make no sense to maintain that Guru Nanak began his flight of the unknown by declaring , you cannot clean your body by cleansing it with water a hundred thousand times. No. His visit to the palace of God the formless was--it was pronouncement, it was an annunciation: "However much and repeatedly you may think analytically and synthetically about God you cannot comprehend Him. You can apprehend Him intuitively. You can know the unknowable through the grace of the Guru. As God himself is the Guru of the Nanak so it was God's grace that makes Nanak see the unseeable and hear the unhearable. Thereby Nanak finally put the lid on all the philosophical clay pots that were boiling at sun temperature by uttering these three lines of verse.
    I. Only he can know the exalted Lord who is as exalted as the Lord Himself.
    II. The Lord can be great or is small as He Likes.
    III. Only He can and does know himself.

    Guru Nanak Dev does debunk all philosophies, all religions, all sciences, all mysteries, all ethics, absolute monarchy etc. so for as our contact with the truth and the truth and the true and our efforts for attaining to that contact are concerned. Nanak shifts the whole burden from the seeker to the sought. At four places in four single verses he repeats that it is the structure and function of divinity to look down-wards at his creation, see it, call it good, enjoy it and prosper it. He does that again and again " He is never tired of doing it, He blesses his creation, and believe it or not, Lo! He is happy to see it, contemplate it, envelop it with his kind glance, with his infinity of gifts. Thus our hope lies not in our concepts and our practices and our offerings and our penances and our works but only in the joy that comes to HIM from perfecting his creatures with his own perfections. He chooses and to the chosen one the call comes. They feel the presence which is beyond the Mahasunya. People talk so lightly of God, of God with attributes, of God without attributes, of the formless without void, of the supreme void, of the self attained , of self generating. This is all an exercise, perhaps a vacuous exercise in relativating the absolute or absolutising the relative. In the literal sense of the word concept, no concept possible of the truth , of the ture one, the true court, the true king of kings, of the realm of true one, of the permanent abode of the true one, of the attributes that radiate from One Who has become the Lord of true Love. Nor is any concept possible as the means of truth realisation. We can't even conceive what divine sight or vision is, what Mukti is, what grace is, we always vitiate our conceptual thinking vis-a-vis God, the only One the Whole , the Full, the Perfect, the Alone by contaminating our thinking process through import or use of time-space cause or even their opposites. No that is not this, that is not this, even if you say he is all that is, and all that is not, will not suffice. So the 'poor humble bard 'at least in 30 stanzas out of 38 almost tires himself by repeating : X has not found him, Y has not described him, Z has not circumscribed him, A has not seen Him, B has not tasted HIM, C has not blended with him.
    Finally the Guru says : they go up the ladder beyond the Sunn and Maha Sunn. Who goes ? who comes back ? "



    In my humble opinion:
    No one can translate or transcreate
    the Revealed Word which is Immaculate,
    Its rhythm intricate, Its poetry sublime,
    None can recreate Its mystique divine.
    Gurfateh,
    yayati
     
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  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin 1947-2014 (Archived) SPNer Supporter

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    The thanks button has been temporarily disabled because of technical problems. Thank you yayati for your contribution. Would you be kind enough to give a url or web address for the essay you have posted? :)
     
  13. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga SPNer Supporter

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    SPNADMIN,
    DIVINE GREETINGS,
    This is regarding SOUCHAE SOUCHi Na HOWAi JE SOUCHI LAKH WAAR

    In fact if we are familiar with the whole of SGGS Ji we should be able to get the more correct meaning of the above line which is the very starting line of JAPJi .
    We must look at the grammers of the words and then give a meanings to them.The three words in the line SOUCHAE,SOUCHi and SOUCHI are related to the prime word which is SOUCH.If we can get the meaning of this word then we will be able to clearly explain the correct meaning of the line.
    The meaning of the word SOUCH is BATH{ a normal process of external cleaning} as this becomes clear from a line as

    SOUCH KARAE DINSU ARU RAATi
    MUN KI MAILU n TUN Te JAAT pp265 Sukhmani Sahib

    From above consideration the views presented by Shri TEJWANT SINGH JI are matching and correct.
    Thus the word SOUSHAE is not at all related to the process of thinking.
    Prakash S Baggai
     
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin 1947-2014 (Archived) SPNer Supporter

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    prakash s bagga ji

    Thank you for your contribution also.
     
  15. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Just a note on pro sahab Singhs transalation on
    "nir bho" the meaning is not without fear for any person as he has stated
    Nir bho Is "Maya " god does not come in Maya
    As we are in Maya just as the line states nir bho narankar sach nam ....
     
  16. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga SPNer Supporter

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    NAAM J
    DIVINE GREETINGS,
    Your views are very correct for the word NIRBHAu.This has been reffered for GUROO JOTi certainly not for any person.The word NIRBHAu is SINGULAR gramatcally this is equally important to understand.
    With best Wishes
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  17. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Thanks
    Just like the word " NIR VAAR" does not mean that god is without enmies, this is no great " ghun"
    It means god is without the five "kaam khroth lho mho hunkar "
     
  18. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga SPNer Supporter

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    NAAM Ji,
    DIVINE GREETINGS,
    Here I would differ with your meaning of the word.First of all the correct word is NIRVAIRu which is SINGULAR by grammer .Therefore this word can not be a reference for five things as mentioned.
    If we look at the whole words of the first line out of nine words the first seven words are SINULAR and eighth word GUR is PLURAL and the last word PRASAADi is VERB{PLURAL}.Therefore the meanings of the words should conform to the reference of Grammer of the words to get the correct meaning of various words.
    With best wishes
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  19. Naam

    Naam SPNer

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    Prakas ji these words of the gurubani CANNOT be translated with somebody "maath"
    The true meanings are to be searched within the gurbani from other shabads one example
    "santh tumra Nirvaru ram nam ras mataa"
    NIRVAu is also mentioned in another shabad " vari sungara "
     
  20. findingmyway

    findingmyway Writer SPNer Supporter

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    the translation is enmity or ignorance. these words are without plural or singular so can apply to any number of enemies or any number of aspects of lack of knowledge. if i am mistaken in my translation, please correct me
     
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