Hard Talk I'm At The Verge Of Losing My Faith In Sikhi. Maybe Already Have. I Need Advice.

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Rajveer_97, May 23, 2018.

  1. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    One thing important to reflect upon is that if polygamy is not for lechery, then a man would bring home a sister. Polygamy gives the right to a man to have sex with his wives. Hence there is no polygamy sans lechery.
     
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  2. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    Perhaps it's a cultural thing but I really think that consenting adults can come to mutual agreements with regards to their married lives and we don't need to make a value judgement about other people's choices. If the wives were slaves that would be a issue, but I'm assuming the Gurus wives were not forced into those marriages at kirpan-point (ahaha).

    Still, last I checked, Sikhi wasn't about emulating the Gurus lives like Muslims emulate the lives of Muhammad and his family. So... still not really sure what any of this has to do with Sikhi.

    Also, I'm perplexed why Sikhs say Gurbani talks about marriage between two people and God. It doesn't. It only talks about marriage between soul brides and God. The Gurbani has been shoehorned into the Anand Karaj ceremony, from my perspective. But that's probably best kept for another topic!
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    If polygamy were a two-way street where either sex were allowed to have multiple spouses, then one wonders if polygamy would ever exist. Polygamy is there simply to degrade the most vulnerable which happens to be a female. In any sexual relationship, especially when a man has multiple choices, then some lovers become more favourite than the others which is very natural.

    But I personally doubt if some Gurus had multiple wives.

    Interestingly, marriage in Gurbani has nothing to do with the societal marriage. It is all about the love affair between the person and The Source. This love affair is gender neutral which can also be transported into today's world.
     
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    surely the ideal marriage would be a polygamous one with husband wife and god
     
  5. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    Don't say that too loudly to the women who choose this way of life. You're forcing your negative value judgement upon them.
     
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    just out of curiosity, would you enter into such an arrangement? and if so, why? and if not why?
     
  7. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    That kind of lifestyle doesn't interest me, but a family friend of mine has two wives. I haven't spoken to them, though. But I still don't really see how any of this is relevant to Sikhi. Next thing we'll be talking about whether or not homosexuality is okay??
     
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    I think the question, should a Sikh man have more than one wife, both morally, and religiously relevant.

    Even from a philosophical point of view, its an interesting question.

    As you well know sis, the subject of homosexuality has been discussed in some depth on this forum, but even now, it is still a touchy subject within the religion.
     
  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    why not? again just out of curiosity
     
  10. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    I appears we'll have to agree to disagree, bro. I don't think God cares about who is doing what in their bedroom with whom when everyone is consenting and no harm is done.

    It doesn't interest me because it doesn't interest me. I'm not going to tell people who are interested in it that they're wrong and going against Sikhi. But I suppose I have that luxury here in this modern western world in which I live where we more often than not have complete freedom to choose who and how many people we cohabitate with.

    Meanwhile, the SRM does provide the bounds of Sikh sexual relationships and marriages. (Just for the record.)

    Edit: Also someone just pointed out to me privately that as much as people can be polygamous, people also also allowed to disagree with that practice of moral grounds. So I'll be quiet about this now since I've said my piece. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  11. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Ishna ji,

    I understand your point. My point is that polygamy should be two-sided where both have equal rights as compared to now where only the man has the right to be on the top, pardon the pun.

    As it is not a two-sided relationship, the loser ends up being a woman, the vulnerable in this situation who either prays or agrees to a coin toss.

    In the end, I would say this is one more advantage towards the macho macho macho man.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  12. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Mormonism was founded on polygamy which has opened many cans of worms in the religion till today.

    The young girls are groomed to marry their much older counterparts. As a result, the young boys are kicked out of the cult to avoid the competition.

    In the two towns where it is practiced, inbreeding diseases are cropping up at the alarming rate because of the dwindling tadpole pool.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  13. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    I want to be the god in this one because god is never wrong.
     
  14. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Ishna ji,
    Just out of curiosity, how long the people you know are in this relationship?
    Are all 3 happy with this arrangement?
     
  15. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    I've said my part and don't haven't anything else to contribute, I'm afraid. :)
     
  16. gjsingh

    gjsingh SPNer

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    In my experience, 3HO uncritically transmits all the legendary stuff from the janamsakhis, such as the Gurus being polygamous, the existence of Bhai Bala, et cetera. This is alongside lots of vaguely "Indian" stuff like tantra, yoga, astrology, and vegetarianism; but I would place most of the latter in a wholly different category from the former, in that they contradict Sikhi on their face. But, taken as a whole, it never seemed to fit with the plain meaning nor the spirit of the Message. But we believe as we're told, and to this very day, the idea that the Guru might NOT have practiced polygamy never crossed my mind! For what its worth, 3HO follows the "political expediency" line of reasoning, or at least they did when I was small. But Harry makes a compelling argument against this explanation.

    Personally, I am somewhat apathetic about the matrimonial situations of consenting adults not involving yours truly. Also I suspect that I am in the majority when I say that I could never be financially, emotionally, morally and spiritually stout enough to handle a pluralistic marriage myself. Of course, as others indicated, there is the lechery aspect. Most of us men have an unquenchable fire of lust burning within us. Furthermore, advertisers and "culture producers" have no qualms about stoking those fires for their own insidious purposes. You might say that a modern-day man goes about his day doused in moral napalm and holding a lit match, so to speak.

    If I have understood the other posts on this matter properly, the disquiet some have expressed with regards to the Guru having more than one wife comes from the seeming contradiction between (1) their status as being as-close-to-perfect-as-possible human beings; and (2) the apparent sanctioning of the aforementioned moral napalm. One feels forced to conclude (3) that either (a) polygamy is morally just or (b) the Guru was not morally perfect. Either way the edifice crumbles. On (a) you have brick that doesn't fit with the rest of the wall, whereas the consequences of (b) need not be stated.

    I'm not sure what to think. There may not be a "kosher" answer from the religious standpoint. But the conversation got me thinking about a 20th century Marxist philosopher named Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya, who made some interesting claims about the social fabric of the subcontinent. At the risk of falling into trivial stereotypes, in Marxist terms, a society can be pigeon-holed into different "stages", the primitive stage, tribalism, feudalism, capitalism, socialism, and so on. Each stage has its own morality and norms because, in Marxist terms, how we collectively live determines how we think and not vice-versa. As such, what is wrong in one era may become right in the other. Example: slavery was once tolerated, but now it is a universal taboo. But this kind of moral relativism has always been anathema for religion.

    Anyways, Chattopadhyaya said that India was a unique place in the whole world because all these teleological stages co-existed at the same time there! (Whether this invalidates the project of Marxist sociology is not for me to say.) But if you think about about it, there is considerable truth to his observation even today. Setting aside the questionable "socialism" of the Congress party, or even of the West Bengal and Kerala governments, consider the following. Traveling the length of a single country you can go from the Tata cartel in Mumbai and the Bangalorean IT industry (global capitalism), to the bleakest feudalism in the villages, all the way through to the isolated tribals living deep in the forests of Jharkand and elsewhere. To me, this is a remarkable situation compared to say, the United States, which clearly has a unitary social system (scattered polygamist Mormons notwithstanding).

    But Marxists like Chattopadhyaya are forced to admit that despite schematics like this, there can be no clean break between one era and the next. On this view, you might say polygamy is a hold-over from earlier, more austerely patriarchal kind of social organization. As others have noted in this thread this institution was even more normalized in the past. So is it sacrilege to suggest that the Gurus were of their time and place, despite the timelessness of their teachings? In an sort of unsatisfying way this solves the problem, in that proposition (2) above turns into a question of historical context. Or to be more precise, it is moral behavior for one time and place but not the other.

    Side note, the subcontinent is also home to many of the relatively few instances that anthropologists know of polyandrous (1 wife, multiple husbands) societies. One supposes that this is likewise an even more ancient holdover, since we read about polyandrous marriage in the Mahabharata, which was probably already an ancient story when it was first written down long ago.
     
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  17. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    Brother you asked too much .. to get all your answers best thing is once read Shri Guru Granth Sahib your all doubts will be clear.. don’t read Shri Guru Granth Sahib as book .. understand each and every word.. it’s a best way..

    Second way is discussion it’s little less trusted because this way you will not get pure views of Guru sahibs.. they will mixed with human’s philosophy.. and very difficult to discuss all topics you raise in this forum ..

    Let’s start with first one “all casts have different Gurudwara “
    No where in Shri Guru Granth Sahib is writing that divide your self in casts.. Shri Guru Granth Sahib says don’t practice caste system..

    If some Christian do crime it doesn’t mean all believers stop following Christianity..

    Same way if some human don’t follow Guru Sahiba teachings and for power, fame and money dividing Sikhism into casts it’s there mistake abuse them not Sikhism..

    One by one you can ask your all questions whenever i see your question and get time I will reply back for sure
     
  18. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb Writer SPNer

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    Sat Sri Akaal,

    Loosing faith is excellent idea for new researchers who have developed some event beyond existing truth.

    but

    one shall not loose faith in SELF.

    Guru's bani is about SELF understanding of one's own MIND and interaction with Nature and Outer World.

    How can one loose faith in SELF understanding

    or

    one has not understand the subject objectively.

    When there are DOUBTS in SELF perception, learning is incomplete, faith comes after CLARITY of doubts.

    Doubts
    Shall I keep hair or not
    Shall I eat flesh or not
    Shall I drink alcohal or not
    Shall I retain Monogamy or Polygamy are common dubious thoughts of being.
    And with DOUBTS on issues one is always collecting information of votes on Pros and Cons to find MY WAY.
    With DOUBTS on SELF one is not a learned.
    One cannot show way to others.
    As one contain. DOUBTS how it can give direction.

    If one has to choose path acceptable to all through ages.

    Make a choice.

    How to choose a PATH

    I have made my way.

    If my mother/father/wife/son/ daughter follow this way no problem to SELF.

    And if none follows still this is MY WAY as this is RIGHT as PATH give by my PREACHER GURU.
    and is the righteous path without further dialogues/arguments.


    That makes one learned.

    POLYGAMY/ Drinking Alcohal/ Shedding Hair/ Flesh Eating
    MONOGAMY / Not DRINKING / Keeping Hair/ Non Flesh Eating are PATH to Destination.

    Be ONE to SELF which is righteous to SELF and OUTERSELF ones MOTHER FATHER BROTHER SISTER SON DAUGHTER. Be ONE with THEM(OUTER SELF ALSO with RIGHETOUSNESS and ONENESS in MIND.

    One can always change the way one thinks and acceptable thoughts are find in other disciplines.

    Nature has given abundant space to all thoughts. and all thoughts have physical space.

    One can be MUSLIM and polygamist. One can live in those nations and accept them as a whole but not as a part.

    Be ONE to get ONE.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
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  19. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Do you have faith in reason?
     
  20. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Does it question the very foundations of sikhi ?
     

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