Hard Talk - I'm At The Verge Of Losing My Faith In Sikhi. Maybe Already Have. I Need Advice. | Page 3 | Sikh Philosophy Network
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Hard Talk I'm At The Verge Of Losing My Faith In Sikhi. Maybe Already Have. I Need Advice.

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Hard Talk I'm At The Verge Of Losing My Faith In Sikhi. Maybe Already Have. I Need Advice.

chazSingh

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Please post the full shabad with your own understanding of your claim above in bold so all of us can learn from Guru Nanak. Thanks.
Page 7-9...describes the domain of waheguru...and the difficulty one will face when they have their excursions in this domain to then try to describe it.. .

Enjoy your reading Ji
Well, I am glad, but this is the first time I have seen you change your tune.
Do you mean in the posts of the past where you repeated repetitions all the times meant nothing? You can pull your own posts out and you will find that this is all new from you which is a good thing.



I agree and you are the master of this trait of yours. :)
I do still focus on the shabad 'waheguru'...sometimes 'satnaam'...sometimes mool mantr. ...sometimes some other shabad depending on how I feel...and at the same time i.contemplate also...sometimes I just contemplate with no repetition...

The inner light manifests regardless because my diaan is on Him...

I.m pretty sure though if I think about lady gaga this will not happen lol lol lol
 

Tejwant Singh

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Page 7-9...describes the domain of waheguru...and the difficulty one will face when they have their excursions in this domain to then try to describe it.. .

Enjoy your reading Ji


I do still focus on the shabad 'waheguru'...sometimes 'satnaam'...sometimes mool mantr. ...sometimes some other shabad depending on how I feel...and at the same time i.contemplate also...sometimes I just contemplate with no repetition...

The inner light manifests regardless because my diaan is on Him...

I.m pretty sure though if I think about lady gaga this will not happen lol lol lol
Chaz,
It is already happening. Your own post is the best example of itself. Thanks for your candour.
I.m pretty sure though if I think about lady gaga this will not happen lol lol lol[
 

Tejwant Singh

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Page 7-9...describes the domain of waheguru...and the difficulty one will face when they have their excursions in this domain to then try to describe it.. .

Enjoy your reading Ji


I do still focus on the shabad 'waheguru'...sometimes 'satnaam'...sometimes mool mantr. ...sometimes some other shabad depending on how I feel...and at the same time i.contemplate also...sometimes I just contemplate with no repetition...

The inner light manifests regardless because my diaan is on Him...

I.m pretty sure though if I think about lady gaga this will not happen lol lol lol
Chaz,

Thanks for giving the page numbers but sadly, they are useless to the readers here.

Please post the Shabad regarding your particular claim as requested before with your understanding. Thanks
"as Guru Nanak dev Ji said himself...describing one's mingling with Waheguru is as hard as steel."
 

chazSingh

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Chaz,

Thanks for giving the page numbers but sadly, they are useless to the readers here.

Please post the Shabad regarding your particular claim as requested before with your understanding. Thanks

they aren't useless...
i wont respond to your requests for Gurbani and interpretation...

Don't you remember only recently you stated that you don't bother reading my posts as they are incoherrant and full of babble...after i posted several posts of Gurbani...

you lost my respect right there and probably of many posters... and then you have the cheek to ask me to do it again....lol..

I will however post the gurbani and any interpretation for any other poster that are interested and ask me...

Godspeed Tejwant ji..
 

chazSingh

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@chazSingh ji, really interested in this shabad and your interpretation. :) Thank you

ha! i thought you would... :)

you want me to post 3-4 pages of SGGS JI on here with my interpretation?

the gist of my talk with Tejwant ji was him saying my writing was incoherant babbling if i remember correctly...
and i said well, mingling in Waheguru's domain does leave one struggling very hard to talk about that mingling...

and then i referred to these pages of SGGS Ji...they talk of Waheguru's domain....the wonders, the Sound Current of the Naad amongst many other things, and Guru Ji says pretty much two or three times one you tries to describe this domain, will struggle...

Very Simple...if you want to take the time to read all three pages by all means do so...
i will post the shabads later when i have some time...need to feed my Son... :)
 

Tejwant Singh

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Chaz,

they aren't useless...
i wont respond to your requests for Gurbani and interpretation....
It is not only my request. You are wrong in your assumption. SPN has a very large family as you know. So, I would ask you to share your wisdom about your understanding of your claim. I am asking for one Shabad, not 3 pages. So, let's put our egos aside for the sake of the interaction at SPN, please share.

Don't you remember only recently you stated that you don't bother reading my posts as they are incoherrant and full of babble...after i posted several posts of Gurbani....
Please provide the posts. I have no problem in apologising when wrong.

you lost my respect right there and probably of many posters... and then you have the cheek to ask me to do it again....lol....
Wow!
I had no idea you had so high regards about yourself.
Respect is in the mind of the "Respector", therefore needs no "acceptance."

I will however post the gurbani and any interpretation for any other poster that are interested and ask me....
Then please post the specific Shabad that backs your claim for SPN family. Thanks
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Chaz,



It is not only my request. You are wrong in your assumption. SPN has a very large family as you know. So, I would ask you to share your wisdom about your understanding of your claim. I am asking for one Shabad, not 3 pages. So, let's put our egos aside for the sake of the interaction at SPN, please share.


Please provide the posts. I have no problem in apologising when wrong.


Wow!
I had no idea you had so high regards about yourself.
Respect is in the mind of the "Respector", therefore needs no "acceptance."



Then please post the specific Shabad that backs your claim for SPN family. Thanks
if one puts there Ego aside, they will merge instantly with Waheguru...
We all have an Ego big or small to exist in this world....including me...

My Claim was that when one mingles with Waheguru and His Domain...that trying to describe it is as hard as steel...i.e. very Difficult...i refer to 3 pages..but in fact it is more...
These Shabads describe the vastness of His creation...of it's complexity, wonder...and then states that trying to describe it, one will fail...

So hear goes...:

Page 3:
Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e.
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.
Kāgaḏ kalam na likẖaṇhār.
No paper, no pen, no scribe
Manne kā bahi karan vīcẖār.
can record the state of the faithful.
Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
Mannai sagal bẖavaṇ kī suḏẖ.
The faithful know about all worlds and realms.

Am i a faithful? i don't know...i'll let Waheguru decide that....i really don't care...
he reveals what he wants to me...it's His choice...i just sit and 'listen' and 'see'... i try and share in small details the wonder that i am skimming the surface on....sounds incoherent at times...maybe babbling...
...a little crazy maybe...but that's because i struggle to put it into words....

Hence why i prefer to try and inspire...thats all....
 
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chazSingh

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Further Snippets, but to get the gist of what i mean, you have to read through the entire pages...

Page 8:

Saram kẖand kī baṇī rūp.
In the realm of humility, the Word is Beauty.
ithai gẖāṛaṯ gẖaṛī▫ai bahuṯ anūp.
Forms of incomparable beauty are fashioned there.
Ŧā kī▫ā galā kathī▫ā nā jāhi.
These things cannot be described.
Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e.
One who tries to speak of these shall regret the attempt.
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai suraṯ maṯ man buḏẖ.
The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there.
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai surā siḏẖā kī suḏẖ. ||36||
The consciousness of the spiritual warriors and the Siddhas, the beings of spiritual perfection, are shaped there. ||36||

...
...

Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl.
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand.
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār.
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār.
As He commands, so they exist.
vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār.
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37||
O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

 

chazSingh

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Amazing stuff from Guru Ji....

I guess there are many who don;t believe that they can 'with his Grace' experience this wonder...to find out what they really are..who they really are...

but it's possible...in this life...with this Body (the Gurudwara) ... 100%....
 

Tejwant Singh

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Further Snippets, but to get the gist of what i mean, you have to read through the entire pages...

Page 8:
Chaz

Firstly, thanks for posting the Shabads from the SGGS, our only Guru.

Let's check the meaning of Gist first.
gist
jist/
noun1.
  1. the substance or essence of a speech or text.
    "she noted the gist of each message"
Your claim for which all this discussion is about is -
"as Guru Nanak dev Ji said himself...describing one's mingling with Waheguru is as hard as steel."

There is no gist of one sentence if one understands what the word means. Secondly, I have read page 3 page 8 and I do not find anything in these pages that show your above claim. Nowhere in the pages you mentioned does it say anything that you claimed above.
Am I missing something? Please provide the missing link. Thanks.
 

Ishna

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From my limited understanding (and I don't speak for Chaz because my understanding is probably different from his) the last paurhi of Japji Sahib that Chaz ji shared (repeated below) says the 'hard as steel' part in those words. To my understanding, the 'gist' of that paurhi is describing the view from God's eyes, which becomes your own view when you realise that your view is God's view. Is there anyone who reads that paurhi and doesn't feel their awareness expanding and dissolving until nothing but God's awareness is left? This is why Japji Sahib is a daily song for Sikhs and ends climbing that ladder of expanding mind.

If Guru Sahib said it was hard to describe I think Chaz and I have a snowball's chance in hell of explaining it.

Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl.
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand.
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār.
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār.
As He commands, so they exist.
vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār.
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37||
O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||
 

Tejwant Singh

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From my limited understanding (and I don't speak for Chaz because my understanding is probably different from his) the last paurhi of Japji Sahib that Chaz ji shared (repeated below) says the 'hard as steel' part in those words. To my understanding, the 'gist' of that paurhi is describing the view from God's eyes, which becomes your own view when you realise that your view is God's view. Is there anyone who reads that paurhi and doesn't feel their awareness expanding and dissolving until nothing but God's awareness is left? This is why Japji Sahib is a daily song for Sikhs and ends climbing that ladder of expanding mind.

If Guru Sahib said it was hard to describe I think Chaz and I have a snowball's chance in hell of explaining it.
Yes, Guru Sahib is talking about how hard it is to describe the Awe and Wow factors of Ik Ong Kaar in Pauri 37. Steel is used as a metaphor which is a very tough metal.
In Pauri 38th, the last one, Guru Sahib gives us the tools how to soften 'the steel' to be able to have the glimpse of the immenseness of The Source from the within.
In the Salok at the end, Guru Sahib instructs us how to maintain the Creation's harmony that we have come to know for our own survival.

There is nothing about
"as Guru Nanak dev Ji said himself...describing one's mingling with Waheguru is as hard as steel."
Page 8
ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰੁ
Ŧithai hor na ko▫ī hor.
No one else dwells there,

ਤਿਥੈ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰ
Ŧithai joḏẖ mahābal sūr.
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ
Ŧin mėh rām rahi▫ā bẖarpūr.
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

ਤਿਥੈ ਸੀਤੋ ਸੀਤਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਾਹਿ
Ŧithai sīṯo sīṯā mahimā māhi.
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਕਥਨੇ ਜਾਹਿ
Ŧā ke rūp na kathne jāhi.
Their beauty cannot be described.

ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਠਾਗੇ ਜਾਹਿ
Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi.
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ
Jin kai rām vasai man māhi.
within whose minds the Lord abides.

ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ
Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a.
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ
Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e.
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ
Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār.
In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ
Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl.
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.

ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ
Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand.
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਅੰਤ ਅੰਤ
Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.

ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ
Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār.
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.

ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ
Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār.
As He commands, so they exist.

ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ
vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār.
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥
Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37||
O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ
Jaṯ pāhārā ḏẖīraj suni▫ār.
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.

ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ
Ahraṇ maṯ veḏ hathī▫ār.
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ
Bẖa▫o kẖalā agan ṯap ṯā▫o.
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.

ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ
Bẖāʼndā bẖā▫o amriṯ ṯiṯ dẖāl.
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,

ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ
Gẖaṛī▫ai sabaḏ sacẖī taksāl.
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ
Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||

ਸਲੋਕੁ
Salok.
Shalok:

ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ
Pavaṇ gurū pāṇī piṯā māṯā ḏẖaraṯ mahaṯ.
Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.

ਦਿਵਸੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਦਾਈ ਦਾਇਆ ਖੇਲੈ ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤੁ
Ḏivas rāṯ ḏu▫e ḏā▫ī ḏā▫i▫ā kẖelai sagal jagaṯ.
Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play.

ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ਵਾਚੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਹਦੂਰਿ
Cẖang▫ā▫ī▫ā buri▫ā▫ī▫ā vācẖai ḏẖaram haḏūr.
Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ
Karmī āpo āpṇī ke neṛai ke ḏūr.
According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.

ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗਏ ਮਸਕਤਿ ਘਾਲਿ
Jinī nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ga▫e maskaṯ gẖāl.
Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows -

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਕੇਤੀ ਛੁਟੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Nānak ṯe mukẖ ujle keṯī cẖẖutī nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them! ||1||
 
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chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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From my limited understanding (and I don't speak for Chaz because my understanding is probably different from his) the last paurhi of Japji Sahib that Chaz ji shared (repeated below) says the 'hard as steel' part in those words. To my understanding, the 'gist' of that paurhi is describing the view from God's eyes, which becomes your own view when you realise that your view is God's view. Is there anyone who reads that paurhi and doesn't feel their awareness expanding and dissolving until nothing but God's awareness is left? This is why Japji Sahib is a daily song for Sikhs and ends climbing that ladder of expanding mind.

If Guru Sahib said it was hard to describe I think Chaz and I have a snowball's chance in hell of explaining it.
Yup...thats what I was trying to get at...:)
I don't think it was so hard to grasp...but seems some have more difficulty...glad you're still on this forum though...

Beautiful JapJi
As you climb the ladder and become more aware of the wonder that is...it becomes harder and harder to describe...:)
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Yes, Guru Sahib is talking about how hard it is to describe the Awe and Wow factors of Ik Ong Kaar in Pauri 37. Steel is used as a metaphor which is a very tough metal.
In Pauri 38th, the last one, Guru Sahib gives us the tools how to soften 'the steel' to be able to have the glimpse of the immenseness of The Source from the within.
In the Salok at the end, Guru Sahib instructs us how to maintain the Creation's harmony that we have come to know for our own survival.

There is nothing about

Page 8
ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰੁ
Ŧithai hor na ko▫ī hor.
No one else dwells there,

ਤਿਥੈ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰ
Ŧithai joḏẖ mahābal sūr.
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ
Ŧin mėh rām rahi▫ā bẖarpūr.
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

ਤਿਥੈ ਸੀਤੋ ਸੀਤਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਾਹਿ
Ŧithai sīṯo sīṯā mahimā māhi.
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਕਥਨੇ ਜਾਹਿ
Ŧā ke rūp na kathne jāhi.
Their beauty cannot be described.

ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਠਾਗੇ ਜਾਹਿ
Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi.
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ
Jin kai rām vasai man māhi.
within whose minds the Lord abides.

ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ
Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a.
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ
Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e.
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ
Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār.
In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ
Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl.
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.

ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ
Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand.
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਅੰਤ ਅੰਤ
Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.

ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ
Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār.
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.

ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ
Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār.
As He commands, so they exist.

ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ
vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār.
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥
Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37||
O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ
Jaṯ pāhārā ḏẖīraj suni▫ār.
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.

ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ
Ahraṇ maṯ veḏ hathī▫ār.
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ
Bẖa▫o kẖalā agan ṯap ṯā▫o.
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.

ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ
Bẖāʼndā bẖā▫o amriṯ ṯiṯ dẖāl.
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,

ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ
Gẖaṛī▫ai sabaḏ sacẖī taksāl.
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ
Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||

ਸਲੋਕੁ
Salok.
Shalok:

ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ
Pavaṇ gurū pāṇī piṯā māṯā ḏẖaraṯ mahaṯ.
Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.

ਦਿਵਸੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਦਾਈ ਦਾਇਆ ਖੇਲੈ ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤੁ
Ḏivas rāṯ ḏu▫e ḏā▫ī ḏā▫i▫ā kẖelai sagal jagaṯ.
Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play.

ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ਵਾਚੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਹਦੂਰਿ
Cẖang▫ā▫ī▫ā buri▫ā▫ī▫ā vācẖai ḏẖaram haḏūr.
Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ
Karmī āpo āpṇī ke neṛai ke ḏūr.
According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.

ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗਏ ਮਸਕਤਿ ਘਾਲਿ
Jinī nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ga▫e maskaṯ gẖāl.
Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows -

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਕੇਤੀ ਛੁਟੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Nānak ṯe mukẖ ujle keṯī cẖẖutī nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them! ||1||
Tejwant...

Having a glimpse ...is what is referred to as having a first hand experience...

Trying to describe what you glmpsed/experienced is the part that is hard as steel...

As Ishna also said...if Guru Ji who has access to it all says it's hard to describe...then what chance do we have when waheguru starts to give us that glimpse...

So difficult putting across a simple message like this with you...greatful that Ishna keeps the balance on this site...:)

Anyway...its the early hours so it's mingling time...before my son gets up and wants his baby weetabix!
 

dalvindersingh grewal

Writer
Historian
SPNer
Jan 3, 2010
519
352
74
After getting into Sikhi properly and studying it for almost 2 years, I have reached a point where I’ve noticed things within its theology and history that I simply cannot ignore anymore. For the time being I’m leaving Sikhi as it is, I’d call myself a Sikh but only by its general definition/meaning, since I have not entirely given up on faith and God in general but on the religion itself. I have decided to take a back seat and begin my journey anew by re-looking at Sikhi, Christianity and Islam, amongst other eastern philosophies. My intention with what I say next isn’t intend to offend, but to genuinely enquire, learn and ask others to ask these questions themselves (Points made in no specific order).

· I still highly respect the Gurus, the lives they led, the ideals they fought and sacrificed for, etc. But to what extent have these really survived? Let’s look at the caste system. Recently I learned some villages in India have separate Gurdwaras for those consider to be of the lower-caste. The Gurus themselves I learned were all from the Khatri caste and married within their own caste despite preaching against such barriers. Now I’m not saying that one should marry outside of their caste for the sake of it, but it’s some food for thought.

· How about the succession of the Gurus? How do we go from the 4 first being chosen by merit and from different lineage, then suddenly it turns into a system of monarchy resulting in the succession of Guru Harkrishan Ji at such a young age who also passed away at a young age. The argument I once heard was due to the challenges to Guruship the first Gurus faced. Well, these didn’t exactly stop and was especially notable in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

· What is it about the Gurus that ensures us of their authenticity? How do we know they were divine or “perfect” as many say. If the message of Sikhi really is the simplest and most practical and the eternal Truth, if the message of Sikhi, the Gurbani, really did come from God as Guru Gobind Singh Ji says near the end of Chaupai Sahib, then why, why is it that its remained confined for the most part to the Punjabi population? Even outside of Punjab, a large chunk of the population is Punjabi and the culture and religion have become intertwined. Now you’d say we haven’t done much parchar properly, maybe because Sikhs don’t preach and proselytize. Or you might say the SGPC is to blame. Okay sure these two factors are to blame. But let’s look back to history. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled pretty far and wide, mostly with his sole companion Bhai Mardana and it was to observe the rest of the world and preach the message of Sikhi. Centres were established in these locations, as far as Iran I’ve read. Why didn’t these survive if the message if so supreme? And if I recall correctly it was Guru Har Rai Ji who also travelled throughout the Indian subcontinent to preach. Banda Singh Bahadur himself went around preaching and bringing more to the Sikh fold (stated in The Sikhs by Patwant Singh as I recall).

· If this message came from the Hukam of Akal Purakh then surely it would have resisted decline and only grown in the 500 years since the faith was born? I won’t blame the restriction of the faith to mostly Punjab on this being the age of Kalyug and neither on how maybe I’m looking at this from an Abrahamic lens and not the Dharmic framework – by that reason most of the planet outside the Indian subcontinent is in simple ignorance. If the message of Gurbani isn’t restricted to the Sikh faith and it appears to those of the Bhakti movement mostly then why hasn’t history seen Gurus with a similar message in the West or other corners of the world? At least I’ve never heard of any, if there are any you know of please do mention them. Please don’t say other religions were spread by sword, Indonesia is the country with the largest Muslim population and known as one where Islam was spread by word and not sword.

· Even during the time of the Sikh empire, which like many I used to consider the Golden Age of Sikhs, after reading its history I realised it was the time when Sikh philosophy was likely diluted the most. The moment Sikhs seemed to have gotten a taste for sovereignty, self control and strictness to the Sikh Rehat seem to have become secondary.

· Following on from this, how do we clearly separate the so called “false gurus” like Ram Rahim from the true ones? If those rape and violence allegations hadn’t been found about him he could be easily looked at as a hero and the saviour of the poor and low castes. I’m not trying to equate the Sikh gurus to this man, they were far different in character from this man. But if the 10 Gurus weren’t the last and only, then why is it when one claims to be one in this day and age they are met with ridicule?


· Now moving onto Gurbani. It is beautiful, the meaning is deep and highly deserving of respect. But is it really divine? This query has been raised before and I will re-iterate it: The verses for the most part are repetitive. It is true this is not the case when they are read in their original form, but the meaning still tends to be repetitive. If I was to open up the SGGS at random pages, I’d almost all basically be reading the same verse but only written in a different way from a different author. I realise that the inclusion of several of authors signifies unity but reading the same over and over again doesn’t appear to me as source of ever increasing wisdom as I progress through the scripture. Comparing this to the Bible and the Quran, neither one of which I’ve yet accepted but it’s undeniable that they themselves have much more in terms of various examples and plenty of wisdom resides in them too. In addition to this, I have always wondered how Baba Fareed would feel about someone worshipping to their poetry/bani? If they were a Muslim, then someone praying to anything other than Allah/God would be the highest of sins.

· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy? There is historical evidence to support they did and those who refute this usually seem to speak from person opinion and emotion. I used to be of the thought if the Guru does something then I accept it since they know better. But come on, shouldn’t they have provided us with better guidelines? Islam and polygamy, something many love to bash – at least it provides strict guidelines for this. Idol worship – this is something Christians (excluding Catholics) and Muslims have a done a much better job at keeping it away. Criticism of Sikhs converting to other faiths such as Christianity – You know what, good for them if this provides them with a more caring community. I disagree with deception being used for such conversions, but otherwise I feel good for them. The fault lies on a lot (not all) of the Punjabi Sikh community itself. Why have Sikhs failed to spread the faith even over the Indian subcontinent itself? Why so much debate over a simple matter of canon scriptures (the Dasam Granth which oddly enough contains 2 of the prayers forming the Nitnem) and a matter of vegetarianism and meat eating? It should have been pretty clear thing laid out by the Gurus. Also this idea of Sikhs being encouraged to be critical thinkers but also not to question the Guru doesn’t quite go too well together.

I apologise for the hefty post, there’s plenty more I’d like to say but at least these things I had to get off my chest. Before this faith crises recently, the past 2-3 months is the most serious I had ever been about Sikhi. I woke up early every morning (even for which there seems to be some uncertainty regarding when exactly counts as amrit vela) and you know what it did make me feel better. Until I later begin to realise that this good feeling is likely something almost anyone turning to a healthy sleep schedule and a habit of meditation could likely acquire. Buddhists who don’t believe in the importance of faith in an eternal creator likely also reap the benefits of meditation.

Bottom point here: the good feeling one gets out of spirituality can be quite subjective. There are plenty of people out there who might follow a very different path and feel something from it and claim that it’s the true path since its working. That in itself is not a good enough reason for why a path is the true one. Truth in its nature is exclusive. The Bible claims authenticity through the fulfilments of prophecies it contains and The Quran through its prophecies and its literary perfection. I have not yet fully read either but intend to in order to see this for myself. I am far from the most intellectual or spiritually developed person, or the most well read in the SGGS or theology in general. But when I started to look at Sikhi a bit more objectively along with spiritually, all these were things I simply I couldn’t ignore. These are some of the issues I believe Sikhs need to deal with. For a faith which is meant to be built on inclusivity, I never even felt fully accepted as a proper Sikh since I am a Sehajdari.

If you took the time to read my post, I’d like to thank you. This challenge to the beliefs I held dear has left my restless and depressed, so if I hurt anyone’s sentiments then for that apologise and also for any incoherency in my writing. I really want to find truth is and have a genuine discussion based on reason and backing up of claims, rather than pure emotion and knowledge gained from word of mouth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf kareo.
Sikhism is a matter of faith. This faith is developed with teachings, experiences, and environment. I am lucky that my faith in Sikhism is increasing day by day because I have chosen to continuous learn about Sikhism, experience it regularly and live in the environment. If you like you may adopt this approach but it is up to an indivual the ay he wants to move.
 

Sikhilove

Writer
SPNer
May 12, 2016
608
160
yup, you got it in one :) focus on what is being repeated :)
honestly...i spent years asking question after question like you...posting on forums, discussing topic after topic...opinion after opinion...sucks the energy out of you...

nothing matters apart from what you learn with first hand experience...then honestly, the types of questions you currently ask will be thrown out the window...you'll no longer care about them nor any ones opinon...because you had a real glimpse of the truth....as Original Ji often calls it..."A Spritual Excursion" :)
Where is Original Ji these days? I miss his humour lol
 

RD1

Writer
SPNer
Sep 26, 2016
361
150
· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy? There is historical evidence to support they did and those who refute this usually seem to speak from person opinion and emotion. I used to be of the thought if the Guru does something then I accept it since they know better. But come on, shouldn’t they have provided us with better guidelines? Islam and polygamy, something many love to bash – at least it provides strict guidelines for this. Idol worship – this is something Christians (excluding Catholics) and Muslims have a done a much better job at keeping it away. Criticism of Sikhs converting to other faiths such as Christianity – You know what, good for them if this provides them with a more caring community. I disagree with deception being used for such conversions, but otherwise I feel good for them. The fault lies on a lot (not all) of the Punjabi Sikh community itself. Why have Sikhs failed to spread the faith even over the Indian subcontinent itself? Why so much debate over a simple matter of canon scriptures (the Dasam Granth which oddly enough contains 2 of the prayers forming the Nitnem) and a matter of vegetarianism and meat eating? It should have been pretty clear thing laid out by the Gurus. Also this idea of Sikhs being encouraged to be critical thinkers but also not to question the Guru doesn’t quite go too well together.
Perhaps the best route is to not compare Sikhi with other faiths. Does Sikhi have to be similar to another faith to be valid? Is the purpose of religion to provide strict rules? Perhaps its actually a really uplifting and great things that Sikhi is not filled with so many "rules" and dogma - "rules" that can become outdated as time progresses. With Sikhi, we have a timeless and universal spirituality and philosophy - it can never be outdated.

Also, is this what our Gurus wanted us to focus our attention on -what people eat, etc.? Perhaps our Gurus realized that such a fixation on rules and dogma did not help with helping one connect with the higher and ultimate Truth. Perhaps these things are really trivial, and not what our major focus should be on. In this sense, I see Sikhi being a faith that encourages critical thinking. We have to reflect on these things based on the current context we live in, and use Sikhi as our guidelines to make the best choices. Following rules blindly becomes ritualistic, and doesn't seem to bode well in society, or for higher connection.

I also think it is erroneous to claim that a Christian community is a more caring - there are support and lack of support in all communities.

When it comes to spreading the faith, it actually has spread all around the world. With so many factors to consider, its hard to judge how "well"or "poorly" this has been done, but there are Sikhs all over the globe. As for spreading across Indian subcontinent, we have to take into consideration what has actually happened to Sikhs in India, and the massive oppression and injustice that has been done -all this will influence what happens to a group of people.
 

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