Hard Talk I'm At The Verge Of Losing My Faith In Sikhi. Maybe Already Have. I Need Advice.

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Rajveer_97, May 23, 2018.

  1. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Page 7-9...describes the domain of waheguru...and the difficulty one will face when they have their excursions in this domain to then try to describe it.. .

    Enjoy your reading Ji
    I do still focus on the shabad 'waheguru'...sometimes 'satnaam'...sometimes mool mantr. ...sometimes some other shabad depending on how I feel...and at the same time i.contemplate also...sometimes I just contemplate with no repetition...

    The inner light manifests regardless because my diaan is on Him...

    I.m pretty sure though if I think about lady gaga this will not happen lol lol lol
     
  2. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Chaz,
    It is already happening. Your own post is the best example of itself. Thanks for your candour.
     
  3. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Godspeed Tejwant Ji :)
     
  4. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Chaz,

    Thanks for giving the page numbers but sadly, they are useless to the readers here.

    Please post the Shabad regarding your particular claim as requested before with your understanding. Thanks
     
  5. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    they aren't useless...
    i wont respond to your requests for Gurbani and interpretation...

    Don't you remember only recently you stated that you don't bother reading my posts as they are incoherrant and full of babble...after i posted several posts of Gurbani...

    you lost my respect right there and probably of many posters... and then you have the cheek to ask me to do it again....lol..

    I will however post the gurbani and any interpretation for any other poster that are interested and ask me...

    Godspeed Tejwant ji..
     
  6. Aman Singh

    Aman Singh Admin SPNer

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    @chazSingh ji, really interested in this shabad and your interpretation. :) Thank you
     
  7. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    ha! i thought you would... :)

    you want me to post 3-4 pages of SGGS JI on here with my interpretation?

    the gist of my talk with Tejwant ji was him saying my writing was incoherant babbling if i remember correctly...
    and i said well, mingling in Waheguru's domain does leave one struggling very hard to talk about that mingling...

    and then i referred to these pages of SGGS Ji...they talk of Waheguru's domain....the wonders, the Sound Current of the Naad amongst many other things, and Guru Ji says pretty much two or three times one you tries to describe this domain, will struggle...

    Very Simple...if you want to take the time to read all three pages by all means do so...
    i will post the shabads later when i have some time...need to feed my Son... :)
     
  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Chaz,

    It is not only my request. You are wrong in your assumption. SPN has a very large family as you know. So, I would ask you to share your wisdom about your understanding of your claim. I am asking for one Shabad, not 3 pages. So, let's put our egos aside for the sake of the interaction at SPN, please share.

    Please provide the posts. I have no problem in apologising when wrong.

    Wow!
    I had no idea you had so high regards about yourself.
    Respect is in the mind of the "Respector", therefore needs no "acceptance."

    Then please post the specific Shabad that backs your claim for SPN family. Thanks
     
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  9. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    if one puts there Ego aside, they will merge instantly with Waheguru...
    We all have an Ego big or small to exist in this world....including me...

    My Claim was that when one mingles with Waheguru and His Domain...that trying to describe it is as hard as steel...i.e. very Difficult...i refer to 3 pages..but in fact it is more...
    These Shabads describe the vastness of His creation...of it's complexity, wonder...and then states that trying to describe it, one will fail...

    So hear goes...:

    Page 3:
    Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
    The state of the faithful cannot be described.
    Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e.
    One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.
    Kāgaḏ kalam na likẖaṇhār.
    No paper, no pen, no scribe
    Manne kā bahi karan vīcẖār.
    can record the state of the faithful.
    Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e.
    Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
    Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e.
    Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
    Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
    The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
    Mannai sagal bẖavaṇ kī suḏẖ.
    The faithful know about all worlds and realms.

    Am i a faithful? i don't know...i'll let Waheguru decide that....i really don't care...
    he reveals what he wants to me...it's His choice...i just sit and 'listen' and 'see'... i try and share in small details the wonder that i am skimming the surface on....sounds incoherent at times...maybe babbling...
    ...a little crazy maybe...but that's because i struggle to put it into words....

    Hence why i prefer to try and inspire...thats all....
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  10. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Further Snippets, but to get the gist of what i mean, you have to read through the entire pages...

    Page 8:

    Saram kẖand kī baṇī rūp.
    In the realm of humility, the Word is Beauty.
    ithai gẖāṛaṯ gẖaṛī▫ai bahuṯ anūp.
    Forms of incomparable beauty are fashioned there.
    Ŧā kī▫ā galā kathī▫ā nā jāhi.
    These things cannot be described.
    Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e.
    One who tries to speak of these shall regret the attempt.
    Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai suraṯ maṯ man buḏẖ.
    The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there.
    Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai surā siḏẖā kī suḏẖ. ||36||
    The consciousness of the spiritual warriors and the Siddhas, the beings of spiritual perfection, are shaped there. ||36||

    ...
    ...

    Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl.
    Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
    Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand.
    There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
    Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.
    If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
    Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār.
    There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
    Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār.
    As He commands, so they exist.
    vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār.
    He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
    Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37||
    O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

     
  11. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Amazing stuff from Guru Ji....

    I guess there are many who don;t believe that they can 'with his Grace' experience this wonder...to find out what they really are..who they really are...

    but it's possible...in this life...with this Body (the Gurudwara) ... 100%....
     
  12. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Chaz

    Firstly, thanks for posting the Shabads from the SGGS, our only Guru.

    Let's check the meaning of Gist first.
    gist
    jist/
    noun1.
    1. the substance or essence of a speech or text.
      "she noted the gist of each message"
    Your claim for which all this discussion is about is -

    There is no gist of one sentence if one understands what the word means. Secondly, I have read page 3 page 8 and I do not find anything in these pages that show your above claim. Nowhere in the pages you mentioned does it say anything that you claimed above.
    Am I missing something? Please provide the missing link. Thanks.
     
  13. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    From my limited understanding (and I don't speak for Chaz because my understanding is probably different from his) the last paurhi of Japji Sahib that Chaz ji shared (repeated below) says the 'hard as steel' part in those words. To my understanding, the 'gist' of that paurhi is describing the view from God's eyes, which becomes your own view when you realise that your view is God's view. Is there anyone who reads that paurhi and doesn't feel their awareness expanding and dissolving until nothing but God's awareness is left? This is why Japji Sahib is a daily song for Sikhs and ends climbing that ladder of expanding mind.

    If Guru Sahib said it was hard to describe I think Chaz and I have a snowball's chance in hell of explaining it.

     
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  14. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Yes, Guru Sahib is talking about how hard it is to describe the Awe and Wow factors of Ik Ong Kaar in Pauri 37. Steel is used as a metaphor which is a very tough metal.
    In Pauri 38th, the last one, Guru Sahib gives us the tools how to soften 'the steel' to be able to have the glimpse of the immenseness of The Source from the within.
    In the Salok at the end, Guru Sahib instructs us how to maintain the Creation's harmony that we have come to know for our own survival.

    There is nothing about
    Page 8
    ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ
    Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
    In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

    ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰੁ
    Ŧithai hor na ko▫ī hor.
    No one else dwells there,

    ਤਿਥੈ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰ
    Ŧithai joḏẖ mahābal sūr.
    except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

    ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ
    Ŧin mėh rām rahi▫ā bẖarpūr.
    They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

    ਤਿਥੈ ਸੀਤੋ ਸੀਤਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਾਹਿ
    Ŧithai sīṯo sīṯā mahimā māhi.
    Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

    ਤਾ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਕਥਨੇ ਜਾਹਿ
    Ŧā ke rūp na kathne jāhi.
    Their beauty cannot be described.

    ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਠਾਗੇ ਜਾਹਿ
    Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi.
    Neither death nor deception comes to those,

    ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ
    Jin kai rām vasai man māhi.
    within whose minds the Lord abides.

    ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ
    Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a.
    The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

    ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ
    Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e.
    They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

    ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ
    Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār.
    In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ
    Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl.
    Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.

    ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ
    Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand.
    There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.

    ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਅੰਤ ਅੰਤ
    Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.
    If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.

    ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ
    Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār.
    There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.

    ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ
    Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār.
    As He commands, so they exist.

    ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ
    vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār.
    He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥
    Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37||
    O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

    ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ
    Jaṯ pāhārā ḏẖīraj suni▫ār.
    Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.

    ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ
    Ahraṇ maṯ veḏ hathī▫ār.
    Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.

    ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ
    Bẖa▫o kẖalā agan ṯap ṯā▫o.
    With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.

    ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ
    Bẖāʼndā bẖā▫o amriṯ ṯiṯ dẖāl.
    In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,

    ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ
    Gẖaṛī▫ai sabaḏ sacẖī taksāl.
    and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.

    ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ
    Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
    Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
    Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
    O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||

    ਸਲੋਕੁ
    Salok.
    Shalok:

    ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ
    Pavaṇ gurū pāṇī piṯā māṯā ḏẖaraṯ mahaṯ.
    Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.

    ਦਿਵਸੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਦਾਈ ਦਾਇਆ ਖੇਲੈ ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤੁ
    Ḏivas rāṯ ḏu▫e ḏā▫ī ḏā▫i▫ā kẖelai sagal jagaṯ.
    Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play.

    ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ਵਾਚੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਹਦੂਰਿ
    Cẖang▫ā▫ī▫ā buri▫ā▫ī▫ā vācẖai ḏẖaram haḏūr.
    Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.

    ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ
    Karmī āpo āpṇī ke neṛai ke ḏūr.
    According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.

    ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗਏ ਮਸਕਤਿ ਘਾਲਿ
    Jinī nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ga▫e maskaṯ gẖāl.
    Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows -

    ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਕੇਤੀ ਛੁਟੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
    Nānak ṯe mukẖ ujle keṯī cẖẖutī nāl. ||1||
    O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them! ||1||
     
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    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  15. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Yup...thats what I was trying to get at...:)
    I don't think it was so hard to grasp...but seems some have more difficulty...glad you're still on this forum though...

    Beautiful JapJi
    As you climb the ladder and become more aware of the wonder that is...it becomes harder and harder to describe...:)
     
  16. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Tejwant...

    Having a glimpse ...is what is referred to as having a first hand experience...

    Trying to describe what you glmpsed/experienced is the part that is hard as steel...

    As Ishna also said...if Guru Ji who has access to it all says it's hard to describe...then what chance do we have when waheguru starts to give us that glimpse...

    So difficult putting across a simple message like this with you...greatful that Ishna keeps the balance on this site...:)

    Anyway...its the early hours so it's mingling time...before my son gets up and wants his baby weetabix!
     
  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    almost impossible, its a highly individual experience, you could never do it justice
     
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  18. dalvindersingh grewal

    dalvindersingh grewal Writer Historian SPNer

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    Sikhism is a matter of faith. This faith is developed with teachings, experiences, and environment. I am lucky that my faith in Sikhism is increasing day by day because I have chosen to continuous learn about Sikhism, experience it regularly and live in the environment. If you like you may adopt this approach but it is up to an indivual the ay he wants to move.
     
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  19. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Writer SPNer

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    Where is Original Ji these days? I miss his humour lol
     
  20. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    Perhaps the best route is to not compare Sikhi with other faiths. Does Sikhi have to be similar to another faith to be valid? Is the purpose of religion to provide strict rules? Perhaps its actually a really uplifting and great things that Sikhi is not filled with so many "rules" and dogma - "rules" that can become outdated as time progresses. With Sikhi, we have a timeless and universal spirituality and philosophy - it can never be outdated.

    Also, is this what our Gurus wanted us to focus our attention on -what people eat, etc.? Perhaps our Gurus realized that such a fixation on rules and dogma did not help with helping one connect with the higher and ultimate Truth. Perhaps these things are really trivial, and not what our major focus should be on. In this sense, I see Sikhi being a faith that encourages critical thinking. We have to reflect on these things based on the current context we live in, and use Sikhi as our guidelines to make the best choices. Following rules blindly becomes ritualistic, and doesn't seem to bode well in society, or for higher connection.

    I also think it is erroneous to claim that a Christian community is a more caring - there are support and lack of support in all communities.

    When it comes to spreading the faith, it actually has spread all around the world. With so many factors to consider, its hard to judge how "well"or "poorly" this has been done, but there are Sikhs all over the globe. As for spreading across Indian subcontinent, we have to take into consideration what has actually happened to Sikhs in India, and the massive oppression and injustice that has been done -all this will influence what happens to a group of people.
     

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