Hard Talk I'm At The Verge Of Losing My Faith In Sikhi. Maybe Already Have. I Need Advice.

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Rajveer_97, May 23, 2018.

  1. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    If it made you feel better - and can make others feel better too - perhaps that is the point. In my opinion, Sikhi does not profess to bring you magical results for having a good sleep habit and meditating. Sikhi is a common sense way of life, and seems to emphasize cultivating a good lifestyle, in order to facilitate the mind-body-soul connection.
     
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  2. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    The actual messages of a faith, are not necessarily embodied in what is propagated in mainstream culture. When it comes to any faith, spirituality, philosophy,economic theory, political theory etc, there are often huge contrasts in what the faith etc. actually says, and how the majority interpret/practice it. We are all susceptible to maya, ego, ect. which can result in ignorance.

    I commend you for asking and thinking about these challenging questions. This type of reflection is exactly what is needed to deepen our understanding,and perhaps bring us closer to a faith.
     
  3. MJALLI

    MJALLI SPNer

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    Hello Rajvir, congratulations on being BOLD to vent out your feelings and taking the right step to seek help. Well, from your ID it appears that your year of birth is 1997 which places you to be around 21 years old. For that young a person to lay tall claims about Gurus practicing Polygamy may be too hasty a step. Your statements about Gurus succession and age etc. lack the factual details. Please note that even if Ultra Pure Water is placed in a dirty pot, the water appears dirty. Similarly, a CLEAN object placed in front of a dirty mirror will give an unclean reflection. Hope you got the intent of my statements.

    It is very important to get to the FACTS before making a fair judgement. Before making a statement that "this water is dirty". It may be wise to check if the container had been cleaned to retain purity of clean water. I am not sure how much of Islam or Christianity you have studied. For sure, you have picked up a few good things from both those religions thru word or mouth (possibly). Your point about lack of efforts by Sikhs to spread the message of our Gurus is very valid. But, lack thereof should not be a factor for you to leave a marvelous religion which emphasis on EQUALITY not only for casts but also of Gender. It is not the religion that lacks perfection, it is the followers, that have FAILED TO EMBRACE the CRYSTAL CLEAR message of our Gurus.

    I will be more than happy to address your questions about POLYGAMY by the Sixth and the Tenth Guru by leading you to the facts and circumstances under which they had multiple wives and yet lead the life of not only as a LOTUS but much better thereof. I will clarify to you by giving FACTS that ALL ten Gurus (in particular 5th, 7th, 8th, and 9th) were placed in the position by MERIT AND SPIRITUAL ABILITY only. Gurbani is very clear about vegetarian Vs. non vegetarian, and I will clarify that as well. I will attempt to address EACH of the issues raised by you based solely on Gurbani and Sikh history.

    [Please do not post private information on a public forum, thank you]

    Hope to hear from you soon.
    Manjit
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    multiple wives would question the very foundation of Sikhism regarding sexual equality, so it cannot be, could you explain it for me?
     
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  5. Rajveer_97

    Rajveer_97 Writer SPNer

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    There are 3 names that are always there in reference Guru Hargobind Ji's wives. From Sikhiwiki:

    Historians say that Guru Ji's first wife was Mata Damodari, the daughter of Narain Das of the village of Talla. She gave birth to Baba Gurditta, Bibi Veero and Ani Rai Ji. His second marriage was with Bibi Nanki daughter of Hari Chand of the village of Bakala. She was the mother of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji. His third marriage was to Bibi Mahadevi daughter of Daya Ram of the village of Jandiyali, from the Shekhupura district, which is now part of Pakistan. Bibi Mahadevi gave birth to Suraj Mall Ji and Baba Atal Ji.

    If one goes by the theory of the old custom of name changing after marriage, why are there 3 names here?

    Then in case of Guru Gobind Singh Ji there are also 3 names:

    at age 10, he married Mata Jito on 21 June 1677 at Basantgaṛh, 10 km north of Anandpur. The couple had three sons: Jujhar Singh(b. 1691), Zorawar Singh (b. 1696) and Fateh Singh (b. 1699).

    at age 17, he married Mata Sundari on 4 April 1684 at Anandpur. The couple had one son, Ajit Singh (b. 1687).

    at age 33, he married Mata Sahib Devan on 15 April 1700 at Anandpur. They had no children, but she had an influential role in Sikhism. Guru Gobind Singh proclaimed her as the Mother of the Khalsa.

    If I recall correctly Patwant Singh's The Sikhs and Khushwant Singh's A History of the Sikhs Vol.1 supported these marriages. I could be wrong. If these claims have been refuted with evidence then someone please let me know. I need to read more historical documents and books to see all the proper references myself, but I'll need to have some trust in historians and scholars who must have already dedicated long on this research. We also know the Baba Banda Singh (although yes not a Guru) had two views, but he wasn't a Guru so I'm not placing him on the same footing.

    Anyway, I've been trying to look into with as little personal opinion as possible. I do lean towards the possibility that at least Guru Gobind Singh Ji married more than once (given that there are more historical accounts from his time compared to the previous Gurus). Now if this is true and if one truly believes in every action the Gurus did then these facts must be accepted. What we view as correct in the modern age isn't necessarily going to match with previous customs. Just because something was done in the past differently doesn't automatically make it wrong. One answer I've heard is the Gurus were not like we are. They were without sins. Could any human really live like them if one tried?

    ਗੁਰਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਹੁ ॥ Do those deeds which the Guru has ordained.ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਹੇ ਧਾਵਹੁ ॥ ॥Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions? (p 933)

    Maybe not everything applies exactly the same to the Guru and the Sikhs. A Sikh's test of what's right and wrong should be looking at what the Gurus did and said.

    I'll keep on looking into this by reading more Gurbani and history. These questions need to be looked into, for a young faith Sikhi has too many uncertainties and they need to be addressed, by keeping personal bias as little as possible no matter how hard it is. I won't be relying on my own personal belief. If all this is true, then either one respects the Gurus decisions or one can't be a Guru's Sikh.

    Bhul Chuk Maaf
     
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  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    ah yes that firm foundation of all that is true in Sikhism, Sikhiwiki, owned by Sikhnet, the voice of that good old egg Yogi Bhajjan!
     
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  7. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    So what even if they did have multiple wives back then? Lots of cultures did that, for many different reasons. What is the problem?
     
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  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    uhm well if they did, it sort of brings into question the whole attitude towards women, which if they are equal, does not make sense, to me anyway
     
  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    If that were true then his multiple wives must have taught him how to treat his wives equal.
     
  10. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    How does it reflect upon the attitude towards women?

    There is so much wrong with how Punjabi culture traditionally approaches women's rights it's not funny, as we see in all the unfairness manifested today.

    I think that assuming that if some Gurus had more than one wife that means they disrespected women is a bit of an assumption at best, and a case of "pick out the log in one's own eye before picking at the speck in your brother's eye".
     
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  11. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    well if the whole point of Sikh marriage is between man, woman and God, how does that work when there are 2 women, is it then between man, woman, woman, and God? and how can a man be faithful if he has two wives?
     
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  12. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    The fact of the matter is that polygamy and having concubines was the mode du jour then. We know most of the invaders if not all and Indian 'royalty' including Sikhs had multiple wives including Maharaja Ranjit Singh. In fact, Maharaja of Patiala even used to have a phallus procession in Patiala where he used to walk the streets of his city with the exposed erect phallus. We had a book with these pictures in our library.

    This kind of debauchery was not uncommon then.

    As our Gurus never considered themselves as royals and they did not have the mindsets of the royal letchery because of their value system of equality, I doubt it that our Gurus would have married multiple women because letchery was not one of their traits as they always fought for equality of all.

    Yes, I have read books, stories about the multiple marriages by some of our Gurus which seems farfetched as no history is written about our Gurus by them which is the only mean to find out if this gossip is real.
     
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  13. RicktheSikh

    RicktheSikh Writer SPNer

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    If there were a shortage of men in any society polygamy would occur out of simple necessity for reproductive purposes. Likewise if the majority of men available were of low moral character. If there were a constant threat of danger to women a husband might function more as a security guard than a sexual partner. A polygamous arrangement wouldn't necessarily mean the women involved were being disrespected in any way or treated as property. Faithfulness would mean only having relations with one's own wives. An honorable husband in this scenario would avoid actively pursuing the acquisition of new wives as well, only agreeing to marry at the woman's request and with all other wives' approval. To avoid disputes over favoritism a husband in a polygamous arrangement could submit to the wives' wills about who sleeps with who and when. There can be honor and respect in any marriage arrangement.
     
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  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    any polygamous arrangement. in my view, shows little respect for women, you cannot be faithful to a woman if you are having sex with another woman, regardless of the semantics, where is the honour and respect in wives agreeing with who sleeps with who and when?
     
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  15. RicktheSikh

    RicktheSikh Writer SPNer

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    In the scenario I outlined, the polygamous arrangement is entirely in the hands of the women. If a woman wants to be wife #2 and wife #1 is cool with it and calling the shots about how it all happens, how is that disrespectful to anyone? It's more like two women agreeing to share a husband, not a husband taking two wives. Yeah, that's semantics but perspective is expressed in semantics.
     
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  16. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    regardless of whether anyone is comfortable with it or not, does not make it right, mindsets can be changed, thinking can be warped, just because someone agrees to be potentially abused, does not make it acceptable, in the madness of what we call love, 2 women may well agree to share a man, and even think that they are ok with it, but a genuine man would not allow such to happen, and as I said earlier, in Sikhism, how would the Anand Karaj work? how does this arrangement work in Sikhism, clearly it does not.

    now if one of the women were a shemale, that might work .....
     
  17. RicktheSikh

    RicktheSikh Writer SPNer

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    I was trying to leave the lust aspect out of it but you had to take it there!
     
  18. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    sure, because polygamous marriages are all about monopoly and other board games, the sexual aspect was never a facet
     
  19. RicktheSikh

    RicktheSikh Writer SPNer

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    I was trying to imagine one that wasn't based on male lust, one in which someone who had conquered lust could possibly find themselves in. There's a bibi I met at gurdwara that explained to me that the Gurus that had more than one wife were offered the women's hand in marriage and to prevent these women from bearing the shame of being rejected (cultural thing I guess) the offers were accepted but these marriages were formalities, not for sex and that the Gurus only bore children with their original wives. This could be just legend.
     
  20. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    Yup that makes sense, the Gurus were willing to watch hundreds, thousands of Sikhs go to their deaths, including in some cases their own sons, fathers, for the ideal of equality, liberty, to fight for a higher cause, for ideals, for principles, but were willing to distort these ideals for which many had died, many had lost, for one woman to not be bearing the shame of rejection, nope, does not make sense to me, polygamy does absolutely nothing to give women sexual equality, no man in a polygamous marriage can look at the women in his marriage as equals, they have either been married to save themselves from shame as you put it, or because they were cool with it, both points are moot, being ashamed, being cool, are both emotional states that can change with time and circumstance, neither are what I would call positive facets to base a marriage on.

    The trouble with Sikhism is that there are many legends, and many stories, and many many Bibi's in gurdwaras, as many as there are men in pubs, at some point you have to put weight on philosophies, you have to pay the piper, look after the chickens that have come home to roost, and I refuse to accept any religion that states one thing, but then makes excuses for why this one thing was never followed by the principals, in my mind, the Gurus could never have even contemplated multiple marriages, regardless of whether some woman whose parents were stupid enough to ask an already married Guru to marry again, My Guru, the one that I hold in esteem, the one that holds court in my head would have berated them and informed them how impossible this was, he would not have gone ahead with it just to save a bit of embarrassment, but that is what I believe, we are all free to believe what we wish, Sikhism is not a religion of do as I say, but not as I do, the Gurus had a responsibility to back up their philosophies with actions, to my mind anyway
     
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