Bani explicitly states that human life is precious above all other life therefore it would be difficult to justify Cannibalism in Sikhi.
Humans As Meat-Eaters: Some Perspectives From Science
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Bani explicitly states that human life is precious above all other life therefore it would be difficult to justify Cannibalism in Sikhi.
BhagatSingh
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No I dont think it explicitly states that human life is more or less precious.
Do you remember any shabads that do?
If we assume it is, just because human life is more precious doesn't mean you can't kill them.
Again I think SGGS is neutral on this but would love to see the shabads.
I think this is one lesson you must learn from evolution.
Do you remember any shabads that do?
If we assume it is, just because human life is more precious doesn't mean you can't kill them.
Again I think SGGS is neutral on this but would love to see the shabads.
I think this is one lesson you must learn from evolution.
My remarks have nothing to do with to vegan or not to vegan, but with the problem of torturing a detail to death. Bhagat ji, cannibalism as practiced throughout the world has and had less to do with hunting down other members of the species for a fine meal. The practice of dining on an already dead member of the species for religious purposes or totemistic reasons is/was far more common. For example... well I won't give an example at this time. So cannibalism is not a downfall of society/community/or species-- as it is not practiced by "the species" as a whole (of which you and are members of the same one) and when engaged by "society" or "community" has a very defined role. Typically to assimmilate characteristics, spiritual power, magical strength of an already dead person in a socially prescribed ritual by designated participants (not all are permitted to participate). All of this is relevant to the practice of cannibalism and at the same time you can see irrelevant to the thread topic.
To be continued - ritual cannibalism as known to Guru Nanak no doubt, and rejected by him as helpful - and then I hope that will be the end of this "C" aspect of the threaded discussion.
The Guru's perspective on the value of human life is actually reflected in both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and in Dasam Granth - and to be found in a very curious context. That of cannibalism as religious ritual. The aghori sadhus eat human flesh - the flesh of corpses after they have been immolated in cremation and then set afloat in the Ganges.
Aghori Sadhus eating human flesh video very shocking
It is a ritualized aspect of their spiritual practice and accepted in society. An interesting exercise is to search for yogis, yoginis using Gurbani search engines for both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth and see what verses come up. Human life is precious, so Guruji's message is - Rather than remaining fixated on death, the dead, cemetaries, spirits haunting burial grounds, the cadavers of warriors and horses --- none of this is where the consciousness of a gursikh needs to be.
I don't think Gurbani will say anywhere that human life is more precious than other forms of life. Gurbani will say -- from where we stand our life is too precious to waste it -- and we have evolved to a level of consciousness to make better use of our lives. I take that idea from this shabad (part of a shabad)
ਮਿਲੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਮਿਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
mil jagadhees milan kee bareeaa ||
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ ਇਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
chirankaal eih dhaeh sanjareeaa ||1|| rehaao ||
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||
ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸੈਲ ਗਿਰਿ ਕਰਿਆ ॥
kee janam sail gir kariaa ||
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਰਭ ਹਿਰਿ ਖਰਿਆ ॥
kee janam garabh hir khariaa ||
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸਾਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
kee janam saakh kar oupaaeiaa ||
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
lakh chouraaseeh jon bhramaaeiaa ||2||
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਭਇਓ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ॥
saadhhasang bhaeiou janam paraapath ||
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ॥
kar saevaa bhaj har har guramath ||
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
ਤਿਆਗਿ ਮਾਨੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
thiaag maan jhooth abhimaan ||
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:
sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Also read Narayanjot Kaur ji's post above.
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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Narayanjot kaur ji
The reason why we don't see hunting + cannibalism is because it would be discouraged as you need other members of your species to survive.
The reason why we do see some "already dead"+ cannibalism is because it doesnt seem as dangerous to your community as the previously mentioned, hunting + cannibalism. but even this sort of Cannibalism is dangerous because members of the smae species will share more diseases.
Sinister ji explained that here:
The reason Cannibalism doesn't affect us much is because there are so many of us. more of us means more genetic diversity as well as, differences in cultural practices.
So cannibalism, either way = downfall. Of course, the effect of the downfall is dampened if you have more members in a species, and members who dont practice it.
By downfall I didn't mean a sudden decline in strength or numbers, I just meant decline.
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You read my mind!
Do you know of any shabads specifically on cannibalism? that would be helful.
Saying human life is very precious, is just a positive thinking. its there to make you feel good. I find that many Shabads in SGGS are simply there to make you feel good and motivated to get off your butt and do something good. So thats no reason to avoid cannibalism.
The reason why we don't see hunting + cannibalism is because it would be discouraged as you need other members of your species to survive.
The reason why we do see some "already dead"+ cannibalism is because it doesnt seem as dangerous to your community as the previously mentioned, hunting + cannibalism. but even this sort of Cannibalism is dangerous because members of the smae species will share more diseases.
Sinister ji explained that here:
Kuru killed off the tribes that developed it, and they developed it because of cannibalism.
The reason Cannibalism doesn't affect us much is because there are so many of us. more of us means more genetic diversity as well as, differences in cultural practices.
So cannibalism, either way = downfall. Of course, the effect of the downfall is dampened if you have more members in a species, and members who dont practice it.
By downfall I didn't mean a sudden decline in strength or numbers, I just meant decline.
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You read my mind!
I was thinking of the exact same shabad and exact same thing.
Do you know of any shabads specifically on cannibalism? that would be helful.
Saying human life is very precious, is just a positive thinking. its there to make you feel good. I find that many Shabads in SGGS are simply there to make you feel good and motivated to get off your butt and do something good. So thats no reason to avoid cannibalism.
We are naturally omnivores, we have enzymes in our bodies that are only present in omnivorous or carnivorous animals designed primarily for digesting meat. Therefore we are born with the ability to eat and digest meat.
However, our evolutionary background was shaped much longer by herbivorous creatures than ones that ate meat. Our intestinal tract is tremendously long and our bodies react similiarly to a herbivorous creature's to meat - we develop atherosclerosis, become somewhat more susceptible to some forms of cancer, are more likely to get heart disease. If you dissect a carnivorous animal's heart, their major arteries, and take a good look, you'll find that their bodies don't really develop sedimentary deposits of cholesterol and fat. Their bodies are developed for a meat-intensive diet. We, like herbivorous animals that are forced to eat meat in experiments, develop serious conditions much more easily, develop heart disease at a rate incomparable to other omnivores and to carnivores.
Therefore I think that eating as much meat as we do is a learned thing, mostly because people are either uneducated about what it can do to your body or they have an apathy or lack of insight as to how most meat on the market is "made". Unlike making plastic cups on a conveyor belt, which can be done in a sterile and cold unfeeling environment, genetically breeding, raising and slaughtering animals in such a way shows disregard for a natural ecosystem and for the sentient nature of most of the food animals we devour senselessly.
I believe that we are designed to be able to eat meat, maybe as a garnish, maybe to survive, on occassion. But we are not designed to eat meat ANYWHERE NEAR as much as we do in a Western diet. Our diets should be overwhelmingly, if not completely, made up of plant foods. Just because we can eat meat and live through it doesn't mean it doesn't add up, that it is justifiable to what it reflects upon our society, our impact on the environment, and our own personal health.
Sure, 'cavemen' ate it, but their life expectancy was what - 30 years? 40 years? What did they die of? They didn't have the life span we do now, where the consequences of a poor diet become very evident once you reach 50, 60 years of age. We also have an unnatural system for acquiring meat, and our meat is full of chemicals and toxins now that weren't present even a hundred years ago.
For those like me, with a direct ethical opposition to eating meat, a plant-based diet is almost easy, effortless, undeniably good for my body when compared to a traditional American diet that is loaded with four, five servings of meat a day (look at portion size - is your chicken breast the size of a deck of cards? It's more likely the size of your whole hand). While everyone in my family is stricken with diabetes, obesity, heart disease and other serious conditions, I remain the only person from my generation in my family that has remained relatively healthy on all aspects, with the occassional cold but no chronic diseases.
Source(s):
Vegan SA - South African Vegans Directory Listings
However, our evolutionary background was shaped much longer by herbivorous creatures than ones that ate meat. Our intestinal tract is tremendously long and our bodies react similiarly to a herbivorous creature's to meat - we develop atherosclerosis, become somewhat more susceptible to some forms of cancer, are more likely to get heart disease. If you dissect a carnivorous animal's heart, their major arteries, and take a good look, you'll find that their bodies don't really develop sedimentary deposits of cholesterol and fat. Their bodies are developed for a meat-intensive diet. We, like herbivorous animals that are forced to eat meat in experiments, develop serious conditions much more easily, develop heart disease at a rate incomparable to other omnivores and to carnivores.
Therefore I think that eating as much meat as we do is a learned thing, mostly because people are either uneducated about what it can do to your body or they have an apathy or lack of insight as to how most meat on the market is "made". Unlike making plastic cups on a conveyor belt, which can be done in a sterile and cold unfeeling environment, genetically breeding, raising and slaughtering animals in such a way shows disregard for a natural ecosystem and for the sentient nature of most of the food animals we devour senselessly.
I believe that we are designed to be able to eat meat, maybe as a garnish, maybe to survive, on occassion. But we are not designed to eat meat ANYWHERE NEAR as much as we do in a Western diet. Our diets should be overwhelmingly, if not completely, made up of plant foods. Just because we can eat meat and live through it doesn't mean it doesn't add up, that it is justifiable to what it reflects upon our society, our impact on the environment, and our own personal health.
Sure, 'cavemen' ate it, but their life expectancy was what - 30 years? 40 years? What did they die of? They didn't have the life span we do now, where the consequences of a poor diet become very evident once you reach 50, 60 years of age. We also have an unnatural system for acquiring meat, and our meat is full of chemicals and toxins now that weren't present even a hundred years ago.
For those like me, with a direct ethical opposition to eating meat, a plant-based diet is almost easy, effortless, undeniably good for my body when compared to a traditional American diet that is loaded with four, five servings of meat a day (look at portion size - is your chicken breast the size of a deck of cards? It's more likely the size of your whole hand). While everyone in my family is stricken with diabetes, obesity, heart disease and other serious conditions, I remain the only person from my generation in my family that has remained relatively healthy on all aspects, with the occassional cold but no chronic diseases.
Source(s):
Vegan SA - South African Vegans Directory Listings
Bhagat ji
I would like to get off the subject of cannibalism ASAP - but am the one prolonging the discussion out of respect for actual facts. There is no evidence that cannibalism=downfall because if it were true it would not be continuing into this the 21rst century in india. Among the yogis it was practiced and socially permitted. The reason why Indian society has continued strong for thousands of years in spite of political turmoil, upheaval and oppression is because India is DIVERSE racially, socially, culturally, genetically, etc etc etc. So for any yogic practice that seems primitive there are 20 others that are socially and spiritually moving in an opposite directon.
Is it my imagination or does this conversation keep returning to the discredited theory of Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics and also Social Darwinism -- both of which have been scientifically discredited.
I would like to get off the subject of cannibalism ASAP - but am the one prolonging the discussion out of respect for actual facts. There is no evidence that cannibalism=downfall because if it were true it would not be continuing into this the 21rst century in india. Among the yogis it was practiced and socially permitted. The reason why Indian society has continued strong for thousands of years in spite of political turmoil, upheaval and oppression is because India is DIVERSE racially, socially, culturally, genetically, etc etc etc. So for any yogic practice that seems primitive there are 20 others that are socially and spiritually moving in an opposite directon.
Is it my imagination or does this conversation keep returning to the discredited theory of Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics and also Social Darwinism -- both of which have been scientifically discredited.
tony
SPNer
Aman Singh ji
Thank you for an unbiased view. Whether veggie or not I think the answer to a better healthier lifestyle is moderation, Ive seen some extremely obese people from both sides, One has to remember the human body is extremely efficient at converting any excess food into fat and would prefer to burn off muscle tissue before burning fat. Once you've got it, its hard to lose it. Remember to keep your chest size bigger than your waist or your heading for heart problems regardless of whether your a meat eater or veggie, Excess fat kills. One point that did seem a little biased was that meat contains chemicals and toxins, this is also true of a lot of veggie food unless organically grown and there is organic meat, so the message should be to eat the best you can in moderation, A good well balanced diet of personal preference is my advice to all my clients. Enjoy what ever you like just dont over do it
Tony
Thank you for an unbiased view. Whether veggie or not I think the answer to a better healthier lifestyle is moderation, Ive seen some extremely obese people from both sides, One has to remember the human body is extremely efficient at converting any excess food into fat and would prefer to burn off muscle tissue before burning fat. Once you've got it, its hard to lose it. Remember to keep your chest size bigger than your waist or your heading for heart problems regardless of whether your a meat eater or veggie, Excess fat kills. One point that did seem a little biased was that meat contains chemicals and toxins, this is also true of a lot of veggie food unless organically grown and there is organic meat, so the message should be to eat the best you can in moderation, A good well balanced diet of personal preference is my advice to all my clients. Enjoy what ever you like just dont over do it
Tony
Is it my imagination or does this conversation keep returning to the discredited theory of Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics and also Social Darwinism -- both of which have been scientifically discredited.
Cultural selection theory; it is a fusion of sociological principles/histories behind a Darwinian framework that help in identifying the chief agencies responsible for the emergence of certain Moralities.
It is systemic rather than deconstructionist when trying to figure out how a societies values and norms change.
It is different yet related to memetics and also encompasses Dual Inheritance Theory (Gene-Culture Coevolution).
(i think this is what Bhagatsingh ji including myself are trying to mimic/apply?)
The question really does come down to the wire when we start asking about life expectancy.
Heart disease has grown in the recent millennia and it is related to eating high fat diets combined with a lack of physical activity. A vegetarian is just as susceptible to heart disease as any other person especially if they are lethargic and love to overeat or eat high fat diets. (a good example of such a society is the South Asian society…which is one of the largest vegetarian populations yet still manages to top every other society in heart related problems).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7366753.stm
Considering the fact that meat intensive diets are considered to be predominantly Americo-European and intensive seafood diets Pacific-Asian…it would be worthy to note that these countries also have the highest life expectancy. The point I am trying to make is that life-expectancy depends on numerous variables for an independent country. For an individual, over-indulging in food leads to negative outcomes.
If you are not going to eat healthy you are not going to be healthy. Regardless of whether or not you are a vegetarian. People do a great disservice in thinking that if they cut meat out of their diet tehy will automatically lose weight and become healthy. Majority of the Junk food out there is compatible with a vegetarian diet. So this article I found to be misleading.
The majority of cavemen died of infectious diseases rather than a coronary blockage.... because they had to run after the mammoth before they ate it..they were more likely to die.
oh i dont know...maybe he gets sneezed on by the mighty elephant
...it was a major health hazard back then...getting sneezed on by a mammothtony
SPNer
Would have thought chasing the mammoth would have kept him fit. but ive never seen a cave drawing of an overwieght caveman so may be it did.
Tony
Tony
For those like me, with a direct ethical opposition to eating meat, a plant-based diet is almost easy, effortless, undeniably good for my body when compared to a traditional American diet that is loaded with four, five servings of meat a day (look at portion size - is your chicken breast the size of a deck of cards? It's more likely the size of your whole hand). While everyone in my family is stricken with diabetes, obesity, heart disease and other serious conditions, I remain the only person from my generation in my family that has remained relatively healthy on all aspects, with the occassional cold but no chronic diseases.
Source(s):
I get a wee bit annoyed with the (sometimes) supirior attitude of some vegans. Of course Vegans can get all of those diseases that they listed above there just perhaps not as common.
Source(s):
I get a wee bit annoyed with the (sometimes) supirior attitude of some vegans. Of course Vegans can get all of those diseases that they listed above there just perhaps not as common.
This is the difference between the West that eats meat and the East that eats meat.
At most in a Sikh meat eating household they may have it 3 times in a week (main meal). Rest of the time meals will be vegetarian.
Trust me when I say vegetarian meals in India are far from healthy. Loaded with ghee, cream and god knows what else, and usually fried, heart problems are becoming common.
The meat that is cooked in Punjab in a traditional Tandoor oven in contrast is very healthy.
Plus Sikhs in general tend not to be addicted to beef as much as Americans. They prefer leaner goat or mutton (as well as chicken).
I went Vegan for 2 months (was meant to be 3 but I couldn't stand it), and no offence, its got to be the nastiest diet I have ever been on. As for Soya milk (I don't even want to go there). Sorry.
Just in the way I find people in America whollping down tonnes of meat unnatural, I find a vegan diet unnatural. Again sorry.
As sinister has stated, the key is fitness and balance. ANY diet you have must have these two elements.
Maybe being chased by a Sabertooth may have an effect.
Maybe we need to release a few tigers in a few Gurudwara's to make the FAT ghee eating Sangat lose a few pounds.
LOL They didn't live long enough to get fat. Or get coronary disease.
Tigers in Gurdwaras ought to do the trick.
One word.
Milk! You realise in how many things this is in.
There was probably other things but I cannot remember.
One thing I will say is that, Vegan at least are not hypocrites like some of our vegetarian Sikh fraternity, who seem to be in some kind of denial about Milk and how it is basically liquefied meat.
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