Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

[Astroboy]

Academy's book's explanation :
Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabirji | Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Academy Malaysia - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Academy Malaysia

Selok #47
Sri Kabir Ji says, the human body, like a long skirt, has caught fire on all the
4 sides (North, East, South, West). The physical body, like a tattered blanket,
has burnt to ashes but the fire does not touch nor heat the real-self (Atma) form
of thread.

Selok # 48
Sri Kabir Ji says that the 5 elements made the body like a begging bowl and
the Yogi (human residing in it) thinks it as unbreakable,
but break it does and turns into ashes.

 

[spnadmin]

NamJap ji

Yes. The 4 sides are North, South, East and West. The body is burnt but the soul is not harmed or destroyed. And the true self is Atma. At a very spiritual level, Kabir is talking about weaving jeevatma and paramatma together. But how he tells this truth is disarming and very personal.

 

[spnadmin]

Hope I am getting this right? These would be the next 3 salokas (49-51). I am posting them so that they are up here for discussion.

ਕਬੀਰ ਥੋਰੈ ਜਲਿ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਝੀਵਰਿ ਮੇਲਿਓ ਜਾਲੁ ॥
kabeer thhorai jal maashhulee jheevar maeliou jaal ||
Kabeer, the fish is in the shallow water; the fisherman has cast his net.


ਇਹ ਟੋਘਨੈ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲਿ ॥੪੯॥
eih ttoghanai n shhoottasehi fir kar samundh samhaal ||49||
You shall not escape this little pool; think about returning to the ocean. ||49||


ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਜਉ ਅਤਿ ਖਾਰੋ ਹੋਇ ॥
kabeer samundh n shhoddeeai jo ath khaaro hoe ||
Kabeer, do not leave the ocean, even if it is very salty.


ਪੋਖਰਿ ਪੋਖਰਿ ਢੂਢਤੇ ਭਲੋ ਨ ਕਹਿਹੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੫੦॥
pokhar pokhar dtoodtathae bhalo n kehihai koe ||50||
If you poke around searching from puddle to puddle, no one will call you smart. ||50||


ਕਬੀਰ ਨਿਗੁਸਾਂਏਂ ਬਹਿ ਗਏ ਥਾਂਘੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥
kabeer nigusaaneaen behi geae thhaanghee naahee koe ||
Kabeer, those who have no guru are washed away. No one can help them.


ਦੀਨ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਆਪੁਨੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫੧॥
dheen gareebee aapunee karathae hoe s hoe ||51||
Be meek and humble; whatever happens is what the Creator Lord does. ||51||

 

[spnadmin]

Assignment: Salokas 49 through 60


This group of salokas were difficult. The place where I would like to start is with this line because it is the one that I pondered over for a long time. Then we can take it line by line.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਜਉ ਅਤਿ ਖਾਰੋ ਹੋਇ ॥
kabeer samundh n shhoddeeai jo ath khaaro hoe ||
Kabeer, do not leave the ocean, even if it is very salty.

Kabir is implying that we are already in the ocean, the Divine Ocean, Oneness, though we may not realize this truth. So don’t leave it! What is so important about the ocean? The ocean is vast, it is the seat of creation, it is bigger than a puddle or two puddles, it is deep. The ocean is the source of life, and it is salty – Kabir ji is commenting on how difficult it may be to taste the salt. But salt preserves and purifies. Kabir ji is saying, Don’t leave the ocean even if it is difficult to be there. Don’t leave the ocean because it is the source of life and is purifying and preserving. The ocean – is it a metaphor for Akaal himself, the source of life, the seat of creation, purifier and preserver? Is Kabir telling us, Do not leave the creator?

Now one line at a time.

ਕਬੀਰ ਥੋਰੈ ਜਲਿ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਝੀਵਰਿ ਮੇਲਿਓ ਜਾਲੁ ॥
kabeer thhorai jal maashhulee jheevar maeliou jaal ||
Kabeer, the fish is in the shallow water; the fisherman has cast his net.

When the fish is in shallow water (not the ocean) death waits for the fish. Death comes when the fisherman casts his net. In our ordinary lives we are the fish; we are in shallow water; we have lost our connection with the ocean. Death waits to cast its net. Death is the fisherman.

ਇਹ ਟੋਘਨੈ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲਿ ॥੪੯॥
eih ttoghanai n shhoottasehi fir kar samundh samhaal ||49||
You shall not escape this little pool; think about returning to the ocean. ||49||

In our ordinary lives – the little shallow pool – there is no escape. Death is certain, Kabir already said that. So in the time when we live in the shallow pool we should think about returning, regaining the ocean, regaining the Naam, joining Hari.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਜਉ ਅਤਿ ਖਾਰੋ ਹੋਇ ॥
kabeer samundh n shhoddeeai jo ath khaaro hoe ||
Kabeer, do not leave the ocean, even if it is very salty.

(see above)

ਪੋਖਰਿ ਪੋਖਰਿ ਢੂਢਤੇ ਭਲੋ ਨ ਕਹਿਹੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੫੦॥
pokhar pokhar dtoodtathae bhalo n kehihai koe ||50||
If you poke around searching from puddle to puddle, no one will call you smart. ||50||

Poking around from puddle to puddle means reincarnation. Switching from one ordinary life in shallow water where the fisherman Death waits to cast his net, to another puddle and another puddle, coming and going from one puddle to the next in the cycle of life and death.

However, I have a problem with the translation “no one will call you smart.” That has to be wrong. I am not getting it.

ਕਬੀਰ ਨਿਗੁਸਾਂਏਂ ਬਹਿ ਗਏ ਥਾਂਘੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥
kabeer nigusaaneaen behi geae thhaanghee naahee koe ||
Kabeer, those who have no guru are washed away. No one can help them.

Now what happens when we have no Guru? We remain trapped in shallow water, in puddles. Come the rain and storms we are washed away and no trace of us or our puddle remains.

ਦੀਨ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਆਪੁਨੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫੧॥

dheen gareebee aapunee karathae hoe s hoe ||51||
Be meek and humble; whatever happens is what the Creator Lord does. ||51||

Kabir ji is saying- Submit, surrender to the reality of all of this. Be meek and do not fight the truth. We are in shallow water. The fisherman Death awaits us. We should make an effort to return to the Ocean where we are purified and preserved. When we surrender to faith and devotion, the Divine will work through us. But in the end, whether we return to another puddle and another puddle, or whether we make the final return – to the Ocean – that happens according to the time set for us by Akaal the Creator of Everything.

 

[pk70]

However, I have a problem with the translation “no one will call you smart.” That has to be wrong. I am not getting it.(quote aad0002)

aadBhain jio

Please first read the following Saloka carefully again
ਕਬੀਰ ਥੋਰੈ ਜਲਿ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਝੀਵਰਿ ਮੇਲਿਓ ਜਾਲੁ ॥ ਇਹ ਟੋਘਨੈ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲਿ ॥੪੯॥
Kabīr thorai jal mācẖẖulī jẖīvar meli▫o jāl. Ih togẖnai na cẖẖūtsahi fir kar samunḏ samĥāl. ||49||
In here Kabir ji hints at thesmall support(small pond=thore jall/toghanai) the fish takes by being in a small pond, and points out to be in the biggest place to be better off. Small pond as a metaphor expresses limitations.
The Idea is coming from the above quoted saloka in which Kabir ji talks about a fish whose life support is water, if she remains in the Ocean, her chances to get into the hands of convenient fishermen diminish, even if she enjoys small pond more than the Ocean still she is better of in the Ocean than in the small pond.
Now this is the base Kabir ji has built, then he moves on to say his idea he wants to convey in the first place.
ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਜਉ ਅਤਿ ਖਾਰੋ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਪੋਖਰਿ ਪੋਖਰਿ ਢੂਢਤੇ ਭਲੋ ਨ ਕਹਿਹੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੫੦॥
Kabīr samunḏ na cẖẖodī▫ai ja▫o aṯ kẖāro ho▫e. Pokẖar pokẖar dẖūdẖ▫ṯe bẖalo na kahihai ko▫e. ||50||
Kabir, leave thou not the ocean, though it be very saline(not attractive to tastes). If thou search for shelter from pond to pond, no one shall call thee wise.( again hint is at the limited shelter)

Here Kabir ji is addressing those people who are out there to worship or guidance from every thing handy, he advises them to take support of the Lord who is the biggest one, whose support is not limited like of others; he further checks out their intellect by saying, if one wanders around these established places that still depend upon the Lord, he cannot be called wise. So who is wise then?
He seeks the support from the Creator only upon whom all others also depend.
My humble views

 

[spnadmin]

pk70 ji

I am just pasting this part of your response below:

he further checks out their intellect by saying, if one wanders around these established places that still depend upon the Lord, he cannot be called wise. So who is wise then?

Ok - Thank you for your clarification. I don't doubt you are right in your answer. My problem is that the phrase as it is now translated does not convey your meaning either. It does not come across. I am thinking that a more direct translation of ਭਲੋ ਨ ਕਹਿਹੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੫੦॥ bhalo n kehihai koe Would make more sense than "no one will call you smart." Somehow it doesn't fit. Maybe to be clear I mean it doesn't fit the context of the complete saloka. And it is ambiguous. Who is "no one?" Since everyone else in the picture is also deluded, who would be left to call anyone smart along the lines that you just described? Guruju seems to be speaking of a particular kind of inspired intellect -- not just a high IQ. Your interpretation is logical, but I am still puzzled by the translation. How did the translator come up with that wording?

 

[pk70]

but I am still puzzled by the translation. How did the translator come up with that wording?(quote aad0002)

aad Bhain jio

These people call them scholars or interpreters, they do this thing all the time, that is why I am convinced Guru Message cannot be translated but be conveyed in essence. Here is another example of a translators' blind fall
ਗਉੜੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥ (SGGS 327)
Ga▫oṛī Kabīr jī.
Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

ਪਿੰਡਿ ਮੂਐ ਜੀਉ ਕਿਹ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
Pind mū▫ai jī▫o kih gẖar jāṯā.
When the body dies, where does the soul go?
( Note= Is Bhagat Kabir ji talking about after death question or something about right here, it will be decided his next Vakas.)

ਸਬਦਿ ਅਤੀਤਿ ਅਨਾਹਦਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥

Sabaḏ aṯīṯ anāhaḏ rāṯā.
It is absorbed into the untouched, unstruck melody of the Word of the Shabad.
(Note: important word “atit [/FONT]ਅਤੀਤਿ ” which means immaculate, unattached. What it has to do with after life information? I wonder[/FONT]?)
Translator couldn't figure out the meaning of Body in this context because body is not used as body but bodily attachment as per the second Vakas. List goes on.

[/FONT]

 

[Astroboy]

Since everyone else in the picture is also deluded, who would be left to call anyone smart along the lines that you just described? Guruju seems to be speaking of a particular kind of inspired intellect -- not just a high IQ. Your interpretation is logical, but I am still puzzled by the translation.

Maybe Kabir Ji was speaking to his disciples who were already learning to see from their teacher's point of view. Just like a father would advise his children.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Dear Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please allow me to add my 2 cent worth.

In the following Saloks, Kabir ji is talking about the difference between shallowness, parochial (closed) mindedness which breeds me-ism and open mindedness which leads us to the depths of One-ism and makes us find connection with Ik Ong Kaar. One more thing to keep in mind is that shallow waters, ponds are part of fresh( sweet water) unlike the salt waters of the oceans which are deep. Yes, some may argue that there are little salty ponds on the beach where one can also see the fish. But here Kabir ji is comparing salt water ocean against the fresh water little ponds.

ਕਬੀਰ ਥੋਰੈ ਜਲਿ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਝੀਵਰਿ ਮੇਲਿਓ ਜਾਲੁ ॥
kabeer thhorai jal maashhulee jheevar maeliou jaal ||
Kabeer, the fish is in the shallow water; the fisherman has cast his net.

Here Kabir ji using the metaphor of fish in relation to us. That if we are closed minded/shallow in our thought process, hence not ready to listen to the one who has true wisdom then we dwell in false security which is exposed easily, hence we entice ourselves to get caught in the net of those who perceive our shallowness. Who are those fishermen ready with their nets? False Sadhus that he has talked about in the Saloks before- Derawalas- Snake oil salesmen. The ones you, Antonia ji interpreted so well.

ਇਹ ਟੋਘਨੈ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲਿ ॥੪੯॥
eih ttoghanai n shhoottasehi fir kar samundh samhaal ||49||
You shall not escape this little pool; think about returning to the ocean. ||49||

Kabir ji was a great poet and his similes above show that. We know that by nature the fresh water fish can not survive in the salt water of the ocean and vice versa.Salmon is the only exception which can survive in both.

So here Kabir ji is asking us to become a kind of fish that can survive in the depth of the ocean. In other words become open minded so the fear of the depths of ocean is overcome so you can cope with this world and live the life of Miri-Piri. The open mindedness will make you swim the depths of life and hence take away the fear which you have cultivated in your self made cocoon- small pond.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਜਉ ਅਤਿ ਖਾਰੋ ਹੋਇ ॥
kabeer samundh n shhoddeeai jo ath khaaro hoe ||
Kabeer, do not leave the ocean, even if it is very salty.

Once again, let us talk about the laws of nature. Ocean fish can not leave the depths of the salty waters and dwell in fresh water. That is the fact. So now the question arises, what is Kabir ji talking about here? Do not try to run away from your problems. Only by confronting them, you can solve them. Swallow the bitter pill( salt water) if you must. It is the only way to learn.

ਪੋਖਰਿ ਪੋਖਰਿ ਢੂਢਤੇ ਭਲੋ ਨ ਕਹਿਹੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੫੦॥
pokhar pokhar dtoodtathae bhalo n kehihai koe ||50||
If you poke around searching from puddle to puddle, no one will call you smart. ||50||

Here, Kabir comes back to the puddles of shallowness that he talked about in the previous Salok49. No matter how much you wander from puddle to puddle, you will get caught by the fishermen- False teachers- Sadhus-Dera walas- Snakeoil salesmen, no matter how much you try otherwise, hence it is not to your advantage. You will become like a rolling stone that can never gather moss- remain ignorant, immersed in me-ism.

No one can take our me-ism out of us. It is we who have to make that effort ourselves by the help of a True Guru- teacher that he expands below.

ਕਬੀਰ ਨਿਗੁਸਾਂਏਂ ਬਹਿ ਗਏ ਥਾਂਘੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥
kabeer nigusaaneaen behi geae thhaanghee naahee koe ||
Kabeer, those who have no guru are washed away. No one can help them.

So now the question arises, what tools shall we use in order to take ourselves out of the shallow waters of me-ism because eventually the puddle is going to get dried up, all the water will evaporate and then there is no way to survive?

Here Kabir ji is saying, seek the True Guru- teacher- the one who can train you to explore the depths of salt waters of the ocean- who can teach you to wear the robe of sadness with dignity- remain in Chardi kala-who can train you to cope with the odds of life. Otherwise you will be a loser and even those Dera walas- Sadhus-the snake oil salesmen can not help you when you are truly in need of help.

ਦੀਨ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਆਪੁਨੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫੧॥
dheen gareebee aapunee karathae hoe s hoe ||51||
Be meek and humble; whatever happens is what the Creator Lord does. ||51||

With the help of this True Guru- teacher you will shed your ego- Me-ism and then you will be at peace with yourself and will stop wandering from one puddle to the other.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Astroboy]

Once again, let us talk about the laws of nature. Ocean fish can not leave the depths of the salty waters and dwell in fresh water. That is the fact. So now the question arises, what is Kabir ji talking about here? Do not try to run away from your problems. Only by confronting them, you can solve them. Swallow the bitter pill( salt water) if you must. It is the only way to learn.

:happy:

Here, Kabir comes back to the puddles of shallowness that he talked about in the previous Salok49. No matter how much you wander from puddle to puddle, you will get caught by the fishermen- False teachers- Sadhus-Dera walas- Snakeoil salesmen, no matter how much you try otherwise, hence it is not to your advantage.

:yes:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Kabir Ji is always one of those who....Take the bull by its horns...that is a Fact. He may look soft..but hes actually as hard as nails underneath...each tuk of his bani shows this thru and through..:happy:

 

[spnadmin]

We have a difference of opinion. Vaheguruseekr ji.

You are interpreting the salokas very differently. I am seeing this as the outer "body fish" needs to move toward union with the "divine fish within," union of body and soul, ordinary with immortal, in order to get back into the Divine Ocean where it belongs to become one with the Creator.

The fisherman is Death, the puddle is the ordinary world, the rain is the passage of natural life. And my reasoning comes from the overall message of Kabir: to abandon worldly confusion and make a union with the Divine - Naam. Everything else is a vain pursuit. And the dummies who escort you through life won't know the difference anyway.

I don't think you are seeing it that way but you are being very diplomatic. But maybe we are seeing the same thing in two different ways. What is your thinking? (What does your neech tell you?)

 

[Tejwant Singh]

We have a difference of opinion. Vaheguruseekr ji.

You are interpreting the salokas very differently. I am seeing this as the outer "body fish" needs to move toward union with the "divine fish within," union of body and soul, ordinary with immortal, in order to get back into the Divine Ocean where it belongs to become one with the Creator.

The fisherman is Death, the puddle is the ordinary world, the rain is the passage of natural life. And my reasoning comes from the overall message of Kabir: to abandon worldly confusion and make a union with the Divine - Naam. Everything else is a vain pursuit. And the dummies who escort you through life won't know the difference anyway.

I don't think you are seeing it that way but you are being very diplomatic. But maybe we are seeing the same thing in two different ways. What is your thinking? (What does your neech tell you?)

Antonia ji

Guru Fateh.

Gurbani is like a mutilfaceted diamond cut by our Gurus. Both of us are looking at the same diamond,however, perhaps under different lights, which is ok. That is the beauty of turning this gorgeous poetry into prose.

Body is just recycled once we die. Dust to dust and our soul which is Energy that drove this engine called the mortal body becomes part of the Creative Energy- Ik Ong Kaar.

You mentioned reincarnation in your post. Sikhi acknowledges that others believe in reincarnation but every Shabad in Gurbani says that if you follow the Guru's path to find connection with Ik Ong Kaar, then there is no such thing as reincarnation. This is the only precious birth you should be concerned with and live it with dignity with the help of Gurmat ideals.

"Bahut janam bicherie thei madho- eh janam tumerei lekhei"- (Someone- please give me the page number from SGGS). It means that I have been hopping from one puddle to the other( using your thought process) because that is what I believed in. But now, I just want to do my best in this life and get rid of that belief of reincarnation.

When the opportunity arises, we will talk about mukti one day because a Sikh is not interested in eternity-mukti either.

Now as far as being diplomatic is concerned, when I showed that to my wife she scoffed at me. Kabir ji will not let anyone remain diplomatic. A slap with a velvet glove on is not Kabir ji's cup of tea.

Interesting interaction. This is the only way a great student like you can teach me.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Kabir Ji is always one of those who....Take the bull by its horns...that is a Fact. He may look soft..but hes actually as hard as nails underneath...each tuk of his bani shows this thru and through..:happy:

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.


I agree with you. Kabir ji had a great gift to use the language of the people and make it easier for them to understand what he was talking about. Singing anything is very easy. Understanding what is being sung needs a certain langauge and Kabir ji had that in him.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

VaheguruSeekr ji
Guru Fateh!

I do hope you do not mind if I respond in-line for a bit. It is easier to speak to your responses in turn.

NamJa ji reminded us that Kabir ji said,

कबीर मानस जनमु दुल्मभु है होइ न बारै बार ॥
Kabīr mānas janam ḏulambẖ hai ho▫e na bārai bār.
Kabeer, it is so difficult to obtain this human body; it does not just come over and over again.

The soul comes back - and it is difficult -- the right moment does not present itself over and over. The cycle of life and death for the soul is not a matter of now, again, now, again with every passing of a human life.

Antonia ji

Guru Fateh.

Gurbani is like a mutilfaceted diamond cut by our Gurus. Both of us are looking at the same diamond,however, perhaps under different lights, which is ok. That is the beauty of turning this gorgeous poetry into prose.

There is no doubt that Guruji speaks at more than one level and that these levels describe how rich the message is in ShabdGuru.

Body is just recycled once we die. Dust to dust and our soul which is Energy that drove this engine called the mortal body becomes part of the Creative Energy- Ik Ong Kaar.

The body is recycled, into dust. Then it is transformed into other forms of nature -- just as it emerged from nature over many cycles of transformation.

ਮਿਲੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਮਿਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
mil jagadhees milan kee bareeaa ||
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.


ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ ਇਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
chirankaal eih dhaeh sanjareeaa ||1|| rehaao ||
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||


ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸੈਲ ਗਿਰਿ ਕਰਿਆ ॥
kee janam sail gir kariaa ||
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

Guru Arjan Dev, Ang 176

I do not doubt that the body recycles in nature. But is Kabir ji not talking about the immortal and indestructible soul? My understanding is that the soul may have a different path, and can take life again. For Kabirji, the body is as he has said earlier in the salokas no more than a covering over flesh and bone.

ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਜਾਇਗਾ ਕਵਨੈ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਲਾਇ ॥
kabeer eihu than jaaeigaa kavanai maarag laae ||
Kabeer, this body shall perish; place it on the path.

That is why it was immaterial to him whether one was cremated or buried. His Bani focuses on the journey of the soul. In an earlier saloka Kabirji says that the soul will never have to take life again once it finds its Divine nature.

ਐਸੇ ਮਰਨੇ ਜੋ ਮਰੈ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਮਰਨਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੨੯॥
aisae maranae jo marai bahur n maranaa hoe ||29||
Let those who die, die such a death, that they shall never have to die again. ||29||

That must mean that the soul has taken life before and that is why the fish has to get back into the Divine Ocean.

You mentioned reincarnation in your post. Sikhi acknowledges that others believe in reincarnation but every Shabad in Gurbani says that if you follow the Guru's path to find connection with Ik Ong Kaar, then there is no such thing as reincarnation. This is the only precious birth you should be concerned with and live it with dignity with the help of Gurmat ideals.

Are you certain that Gurbani says there is no such thing as reincarnation? Guru Nanak says we will overcome our fear of the cycle of life and death. Some take this to mean that by overcoming our fear, the matter of reincarnation just goes away and it ceases to be an issue. Others take this to mean that there is no longer any need to fear because with mukhti the soul will end its journey. For Sikhs the jury is out on the question. But again, back to Kabirji -- either way the soul has to make the journey from the puddle to the Ocean, and the way out is through constant bhagat(th)i. Do you agree?

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੨॥
guramukh giaan this sabh kishh soojhai agiaanee andhh kamaaee hae ||2||
The Gurmukh attains spiritual wisdom, and understands everything. The ignorant ones act blindly. ||2||

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਸਹਸਾ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
manamukh sehasaa boojh n paaee ||
The self-willed manmukh is cynical; he doesn't understand.

ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਈ ॥
mar mar janmai janam gavaaee ||
He dies and dies again, only to be reborn, and loses his life uselessly again.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਹਜੇ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੩॥
guramukh naam rathae sukh paaeiaa sehajae saach samaaee hae ||3||
The Gurmukh is imbued with the Naam, the Name of the Lord; he find peace, and is intuitively immersed in the True Lord. ||3||

Guru Amar Das, Ang 1047

"Bahut janam bicherie thei madho- eh janam tumerei lekhei"- (Someone- please give me the page number from SGGS). It means that I have been hopping from one puddle to the other( using your thought process)

Here is another way to think about hopping about. The camel wanders from one oasis to another, and Guru Ram Das instructs, on Ang 235

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਮਨ ਕਰਹਲੇ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭਵਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭਾਲਿ ॥
anthar nidhhaan man karehalae bhram bhavehi baahar bhaal ||
The treasure is deep within, O camel-like mind, but you wander around outside in doubt, searching for it.

because that is what I believed in. But now, I just want to do my best in this life and get rid of that belief of reincarnation. Perhaps get rid of the belief; or instead get over the fear through continual devotion and eventual union with the Divine -- finally realizing that the Divine permeates all of creation and so death itself is defeated.

ਕਾਲੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥
kaal maar gur sabadh nivaarae ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, death is conquered and killed.
Guru Amar Das, Ang 1047

When the opportunity arises, we will talk about mukti one day because a Sikh is not interested in eternity-mukti either.

Now as far as being diplomatic is concerned, when I showed that to my wife she scoffed at me. You are diplomatic even if Kabir ji is not. Kabir ji will not let anyone remain diplomatic. A slap with a velvet glove on is not Kabir ji's cup of tea.

Interesting interaction. This is the only way a great student like you can teach me.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

So my understanding is that Kabirji tells us that in this lifetime, in this body, we have the opportunity to find the Creator within. And if we do not, there are times when the soul will make the journey again.

What happens to the soul (the divine fish) if a person (the body fish) just keeps on poking from puddle to puddle and does not get back in touch with the Divine Ocean? :idea:

 

[Astroboy]

Look at Selok 52 :-

ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨਉ ਕੀ ਕੂਕਰਿ ਭਲੀ ਸਾਕਤ ਕੀ ਬੁਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
कबीर बैसनउ की कूकरि भली साकत की बुरी माइ ॥
Kabīr baisna▫o kī kūkar bẖalī sākaṯ kī burī mā▫e.
Kabeer, even the dog of a devotee is good, while the mother of the faithless cynic is bad.

ਓਹ ਨਿਤ ਸੁਨੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਸੁ ਉਹ ਪਾਪ ਬਿਸਾਹਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੫੨॥
ओह नित सुनै हरि नाम जसु उह पाप बिसाहन जाइ ॥५२॥
Oh niṯ sunai har nām jas uh pāp bisāhan jā▫e. ||52||
The dog hears the Praises of the Lord's Name, while the other is engaged in sin. ||52||

I asked this question in class on how a dog could be good when he does not
understand the praises of the Lord. Any comments/answers ?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

We have a difference of opinion. Vaheguruseekr ji.

You are interpreting the salokas very differently. I am seeing this as the outer "body fish" needs to move toward union with the "divine fish within," union of body and soul, ordinary with immortal, in order to get back into the Divine Ocean where it belongs to become one with the Creator.

The fisherman is Death, the puddle is the ordinary world, the rain is the passage of natural life. And my reasoning comes from the overall message of Kabir: to abandon worldly confusion and make a union with the Divine - Naam. Everything else is a vain pursuit. And the dummies who escort you through life won't know the difference anyway.

I don't think you are seeing it that way but you are being very diplomatic. But maybe we are seeing the same thing in two different ways. What is your thinking? (What does your neech tell you?)

aad Ji..
I see it your way...and thats what i have been teaching my students.....my 2 cents worth.

 

[spnadmin]

Sangat ji

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਥਾਪਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
jin ko sathigur thhaapiaa thin maett n sakai koe ||
No one can overthrow those who have been established by the True Guru.



ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੋ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
ounaa andhar naam nidhhaan hai naamo paragatt hoe ||
The Treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is within them, and through the Naam, they are radiant and famous.


ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥
naao poojeeai naao manneeai akhandd sadhaa sach soe ||3||
They worship the Naam, and they believe in the Naam. The True One is forever Intact and Unbroken. ||3||


ਖੇਹੂ ਖੇਹ ਰਲਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਜੀਉ ਕੇਹਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
khaehoo khaeh ralaaeeai thaa jeeo kaehaa hoe ||
When the body mingles with dust, what happens to the soul?


ਜਲੀਆ ਸਭਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਰੋਇ ॥
jaleeaa sabh siaanapaa outhee chaliaa roe ||
All clever tricks are burnt away, and you shall depart crying.


ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਐ ਦਰਿ ਗਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੮॥
naanak naam visaariai dhar gaeiaa kiaa hoe ||4||8||
O Nanak, those who forget the Naam-what will happen when they go to the Court of the Lord? ||4||8||

This part of the shabad is in Sri Raag, Ang 17. It connects with the discussion about Bhagat Kabir ji in this sense.


If the jeevatma (the individual soul) does not manage in this one lifetime to join with the Divine - then what happens to that soul after death? If it does not merge with Divine Consiousness in this one lifetime, what is its destination? It is clear that Bhagat Kabiji and the Gurus say that at death the body rots, is cremated, decays, is recycled into the vast energies of nature and the Cosmos. The idea that souls reincarnate to cleanse themselves of the filth of past deeds over and over again in truth does not fit with Guru's Shabad.

Kabir ji says: There is only one chance in this lifetime to form a spiritual union with the Divine. But how is this question answered? Does then the soul return to continue is spiritual journey? Everything depends on how one understands the concept of "soul." Are there other lifetimes for the soul to continue its spiritual journey toward union with paramatma, the Divine Consciousness?

 

[spnadmin]

Look at Selok 52 :-

ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨਉ ਕੀ ਕੂਕਰਿ ਭਲੀ ਸਾਕਤ ਕੀ ਬੁਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
कबीर बैसनउ की कूकरि भली साकत की बुरी माइ ॥
Kabīr baisna▫o kī kūkar bẖalī sākaṯ kī burī mā▫e.
Kabeer, even the dog of a devotee is good, while the mother of the faithless cynic is bad.

ਓਹ ਨਿਤ ਸੁਨੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਸੁ ਉਹ ਪਾਪ ਬਿਸਾਹਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੫੨॥
ओह नित सुनै हरि नाम जसु उह पाप बिसाहन जाइ ॥५२॥
Oh niṯ sunai har nām jas uh pāp bisāhan jā▫e. ||52||
The dog hears the Praises of the Lord's Name, while the other is engaged in sin. ||52||

I asked this question in class on how a dog could be good when he does not
understand the praises of the Lord. Any comments/answers ?

NamJap ji - Have you already answered the question?

Those who dwell near the sandalwood tree, become just like the sandalwood tree. (Ang 1365)

 

[Astroboy]

Aad Ji,

The answer I received was merely this and the rest is left to the imagination. In class we do not have time to discuss at length.
Professor Harnek Singh Ji answered, "if you give a name to a dog and call it, it will respond to you."

Let me rephrase my query. Look at the following examples of a dog:

Page 481, Line 2
ਕਹਾ ਸੁਆਨ ਕਉ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਨਾਏ ॥
कहा सुआन कउ सिम्रिति सुनाए ॥
Kahā su▫ān ka▫o simriṯ sunā▫e.
Why bother to read the Simritees to a dog?
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1223, Line 17
ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਤ ਕੂਕਰੀ ਆਸਾ ਇਤੁ ਲਾਗੋ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਛਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
त्रिपति न होवत कूकरी आसा इतु लागो बिखिआ छार ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ŧaripaṯ na hovaṯ kūkrī āsā iṯ lāgo bikẖi▫ā cẖẖār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Like a dog, its desires are never satisfied; it clings to the ashes of corruption. ||1||Pause||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


:shock: