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Aug 27, 2005
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpoint)

vijaydeep Singh said:
Gurfateh
Repected Satyaban Ji,

Om Namoh Shivaha

Creation bows to one with greatest(power).


Das bow to your devotion and explantion.

yuo helped das to undestadn the trinty in Gurmat also as we also have Three form of Guru in Sanatan Sikh Panth.

Ie Atamdev(Akal ,who is in).

Istdev(Sabad Guru or Guru Granth Sahib Ji ie verbal manifestation of Akal(in Nihungs there could be two more scriptures).

Gurudev(Guru in living community and giving us Baptism or letting us leran meditation).

Thanks a lot.

Vijaydeep Ji

Thank you for that kind word.

Om shanti shanti Om
Satyaban
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpo

So, you choose to follow Christ because you fear death?

Or am I missing something?

The Gurus said that death is no object. It is inevitable and natural and is not evil.

The message behind Christ's resurrection implies that death is bad and must be overcome. It is apparently overcome by connecting oneself with Christ.

This is the type of spiritual blackmail that keeps me away from the Abrahamic faiths and firmly entrenched within Nanakian philosophy of balancing the spiritual and temporal realms of our very nature.

An interesting discussion, and I'd like to hear more views.

Sugmad said:
Guru Gobind Singh Ji describes his call to the guruship in the sixth chapter :
When I was performing austerities and meditating on Maha Kaal on the lofty Hem Kund in the high Himalayas, I became absorbed in the Immortal One and became one with the Lord. My mother and father also served the Lord with great devotion. I did not wish it, but the order came for me to take birth in Kal Yuga (present age of darkness). The Immortal One told me how first the demons were created, but they trusted in their own arms and so were destroyed. Then the gods were created , but they became proud (worshiped their own strength) and called themselves Parmashur (Supreme God). Maha Dev (Shiv Ji) called himself The Imperishable; Vishnu appointed himself Parmashur; Brahama stated that he was Par Braham (Supreme Brahama); but none of them knew the true Lord. Then the Lord created the eight witnesses (Earth, Sun, Moon, Fire, Wind, Water etc) but people began to worship them. Some people worshiped stones, some worshiped water and became ensnared in egoism. the Siddhs and Sadhs likewise found their own Panths (sects) and went astray in quarrels and pride. Datta Traiya was created, he only let his finger nails grow and matted his hair, but he failed to meditate on the love of Hari. Gorakh made disciples of great Rajas, but only taught them to split their ears and put in earrings. Ramanand became a Bhairagi and wore a wodden necklace, but forgot the Lord. All the great souls only founded their own sects. Muhammad was ordained King of Arabia by the Lord, but he only taught circumcision to his devotees. He caused his own name to be repeated and did not proclaim the True Name. So the Immortal one said to me,
"I have glorified you as my son, I have created you to proclaim the panth; Go, spread the faith there, and restrain the people from folly." I stood up and made obeisance and said, "This Panth will spread in the world when Thou givest assistance."For this reason the Lord sent me; then i took birth and came into this world. What he spoke that I speak and I bear no enmity to anyone. Those who call ne Parmashur shall fall into the pits of Hell; Know me as his slave only, have no doubt about that. I am the slave of the supreme being and have come to behold the spectacle of the world; What the Lord told me, that I tell the world and I will not remain silent through fear of mortals.
I have come into this world for this purpose, For the sake of faith the divine Guru sent me: "Wherever you extend the faith, Seize and hurl down evil deceivers." For this very purpose we have taken birth - All you saints understand this in your heart, to spread the faith, to protect the saints, and to chastise all evildoers.

GURU GOBIND SINGH JI WAS ALSO THE SON OF GOD

We are all sons and daughters of God.

That's the point.

These recollections of the Tenth Master in the Dassam Granth are effectively the same meditations as those of Guru Nanak who taught that worshipping multiple deities and/or performing immoral acts.
 
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Aug 27, 2005
328
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Baltimore Md USA
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpoint)

An important difference between Abrahamic religions and faiths that rose out of the subcontinent of India is that Islam, Judaism and Christianity expect their "reward" for "righteous" living comes after death where as I believe we can have an intimate experience of God in this life. I consider death a necessary step in my spiritual evolution.

Of course Max is right in the sense that "righteous" out of fearing God is "spiritual "blackmail. "If you do this or that you are going to hell" is not spiritual evolution. Making ahimsa, bhakti and selfless service an unconscious practice is spiritual evolution and performed gladly.
This I believe.

Om shanti shanti Om
Satyaban
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpoint)

Even simpler than that, I believe that one should do the right thing because it is the right thing.

"Is virtue a thing remote? I wish to be virtuous, and lo! Virtue is at hand." ~ Confucius
 

Ebucian

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May 1, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

"Only Jesus’ sacrifice made on the Cross can redeem a person from his sins; no one else’s sacrifice is acceptable to God because Jesus is the only person to ever be born on this earth who had never sinned. “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12) Sin can only be forgiven by God. However, God is also holy and his holy justice requires that sin must be punished. Since all humans are guilty of sin (Romans 5:12), therefore, Jesus took the punishment upon himself to pay the price for the sins of the mankind. I am going to give you an example to clarify my point. " quote from rajas

im sorry i havent time to put forward a fully fledged reply but just one thing.
you say only jesus's sacrafice is acceptable by god. that god only accepts the sacrafice from a person that has commited no sin. How did you go about finding out this. How do you know gods reasoning? Gods criteria for what is an acceptable sacerfice? Surely this can only be true if you accept blindly that "no one else’s sacrifice is acceptable to God because Jesus is the only person to ever be born on this earth who had never sinned" just because the bible or christain polemics claimed it as such.

Maybe there is a philisohpical reason for understanding Gods choice in sacrafice but right now i maintain that none can understand gods thought or mind untill we have merged with the akaal purakh.

No ofence intended. Mind the spelling and grammer for now. As said beforre i have very little time.
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

To be honest, Ebucian, it's not all that different to Sikkhs who think that the Ten Gurus are the only true masters, etc and that the Granth contains 'The Words Of God'.

The fact of the matter remains that God has no words. Only human beings have words to help us understand and communicate the world around us.

The Granth contains 'the words of the Gurus and other scholars'.

The only truth is God. Even if you say it in a thousand different ways by a thousand different people in a thousand different man-made languages...the truth remains one and the same.
 

Ebucian

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May 1, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

max314 said:
To be honest, Ebucian, it's not all that different to Sikkhs who think that the Ten Gurus are the only true masters, etc and that the Granth contains 'The Words Of God'.

The fact of the matter remains that God has no words. Only human beings have words to help us understand and communicate the world around us.

The Granth contains 'the words of the Gurus and other scholars'.

The only truth is God. Even if you say it in a thousand different ways by a thousand different people in a thousand different man-made languages...the truth remains one and the same.

I understand that and perhaps i worded my argument wrong. If you look at the quotation given by rajs he outlines what would be the thought and reasoning of God in regards to accepting a sacrafice. As far as i know No Guru ever tried to describe God and most definatly not his\her thoughts or reasoning. Infact reading japji sahib or many other parts of the guru granth sahib you can see that sikhism out rite rejects any attempt to explain god in any detail as our human form cannot begin to chomprehend.
Its one thing to belive that Guru Granth sahib is the enlightend teachings of our Gurus as revealed to them by god and another thing to belive we know how god thinks and works. Especially when Gurbani in many occasions rejects any notion of the description of God or his thoughts and workings
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Baltimore Md USA
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpoint)

I am neither a Christian or Sikh and sacrfice is a hard concept for me to reconcile with karma. Karma is a natural law and universal. That is Karma is the law everywhere in this universe. I have a hard time believing God would suspend any of his laws for benefit of mankind, we are not the crown of creation the universe is.

Peace
Satyaban
 

Pukandi Baba

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Mar 25, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

max314 said:
To be honest, Ebucian, it's not all that different to Sikkhs who think that the Ten Gurus are the only true masters, etc and that the Granth contains 'The Words Of God'.

The fact of the matter remains that God has no words. Only human beings have words to help us understand and communicate the world around us.

The Granth contains 'the words of the Gurus and other scholars'.

The only truth is God. Even if you say it in a thousand different ways by a thousand different people in a thousand different man-made languages...the truth remains one and the same.

I think your mistaken my dear fellow.

This statement you've made about 'God has no words' is incorrect. The Bible says in the beginning there was the word of God - Now how is that any different? The Shabad in the Guru Granth Sahib ji is the word of God that was elivered via the Gurus AND other holy saints. In the Bible there is only words that have been delivered via the disciples. aand not Jesus!
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

Pukandi Baba said:
I think your mistaken my dear fellow.

This statement you've made about 'God has no words' is incorrect. The Bible says in the beginning there was the word of God - Now how is that any different? The Shabad in the Guru Granth Sahib ji is the word of God that was elivered via the Gurus AND other holy saints. In the Bible there is only words that have been delivered via the disciples. aand not Jesus!

And I think that the Bible is as wrong as Sikkhs who claim that it contains 'the word of God'.

The Granth is:

1. - A set of moral codes to give to a barbaric world.

2. - A way of thinking about God that does not lay any importance at the feet of names, idols, rituals, etc.

The world of Guru Nanak was a world apart to the one in which we live now. Things we take for granted today such as equal rights between genders and races, etc was an alien concept at the time. Today, inequality is considered the absurdity.

But despite the habbits of men having change (generally) for the better, there are still holes in our conduct. If there were not, then there would have been no Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Nor would there have been a Holocaust...or all of the inhumanity that still exists today.

It's far less than what it once was, but when human beings get into seemingly more complex situations, they lost their moral center and get sucked into the world of the Five Thieves, even if they are essentially good people.

In the cyber-world of the 21st century global village, Nanakian philosophy offers a way to get people to find their moral centers when the world starts to carry them away from moralistic actions. Whether a man reads the advice of Confucius, invests in the nobility of Christ's words when addressing humanity, or uses the Granth's teachings, it matters not which way we choose. What matters is the end product: that we become full, happy and morally fulfilled human benigs.

And the greatest judge of that is your own heart.

Satyaban said:
I am neither a Christian or Sikh and sacrfice is a hard concept for me to reconcile with karma. Karma is a natural law and universal. That is Karma is the law everywhere in this universe. I have a hard time believing God would suspend any of his laws for benefit of mankind, we are not the crown of creation the universe is.

Peace
Satyaban

"Sacrifice" is necessary for any kind of acheivement.

You must sacrifice in order to well in exams. You must sacrifice in order to create a successful family and raise children. You must sacrifice when you want to excel at your career.

And - like Guru Gobind Singh Ji - you must sacrifice in order to help acheive a world that is closer to an all-accepting, secularist democracy whereby all human beings can live as human beings. The Khalsa were created for no other reason than to protect the sanctity of basic human rights of other people. The Guru even went into talks with the Mughal emperor in an attempt to negotiate the laws of the empire into something that was more secularist and accepting...even after the deaths of his father and two of his youngest sons at the hands of that same emperor.

Revenge has no place in Sikkhi, because of the Ek Onkar concept. 'Enemies' and 'friends', 'life' and 'death'...these are all words given by the human mind in its feeble attempt to describe a universe it can never understand. None of these things actually exist.

The Gurus understood this.

The Sikkhs do not.
 
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Pukandi Baba

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Mar 25, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

max314 said:
And I think that the Bible is as wrong as Sikkhs who claim that it contains 'the word of God'.

.

It's Sikhs!

Anyway - Are you saying that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not the word of God, because it seems to be confusing?
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

Pukandi Baba said:
It's Sikhs!

It's not even an English word.

But like the term 'Buddhism' has two 'd's to illustrate the emphasis on the 'd' pronounciation, it has been argued by many that a more correct English spelling of the word 'Sikhism' is in fact 'Sikkhism'.

Anyway - Are you saying that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not the word of God, because it seems to be confusing?

I am saying that the Granth contains what I think is the truth about God...or as close as we can get to a truth about God in terms of its human linguistic expression through poetry and prose.

But this does not make it 'the Word of God'.

It's no different from any other of the countless religions that claims to have 'the Word of God'.

"Na koi Hindu. Na koi Musalmaan."

He didn't say: "Na koi Hindu. Na koi Musalmaan...sirf Sikkh Panthis."

These are words and labels given to groups. Even the words 'Sikkh' and 'Khalsa' are words given to illustrate a concept. But they are only of use to humans...God has no use for these. The Gurus created them as a practical necessity to keep the non-thinking, form-craving hordes of barbaric rural farmers a way of living that was noble.

Things like "have a bath" and "don't rape women" and other kinds of things that we don't even have to think about in today's world were like mystical revelations to the people of 17th century India.

People forget the context in which Sikkhi was created, insisting on creating a three hundred year-old time warp in which we still wear clothes and garments (all products of maya, by the way...) when we could just as easily wear more standard clothing and act just as noble as if we wore a costume and lived life with dark hearts.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Baltimore Md USA
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpoint)

"Sacrifice" is necessary for any kind of acheivement.

You must sacrifice in order to well in exams. You must sacrifice in order to create a successful family and raise children. You must sacrifice when you want to excel at your career.

And - like Guru Gobind Singh Ji - you must sacrifice in order to help acheive a world that is closer to an all-accepting, secularist democracy whereby all human beings can live as human beings. The Khalsa were created for no other reason than to protect the sanctity of basic human rights of other people. The Guru even went into talks with the Mughal emperor in an attempt to negotiate the laws of the empire into something that was more secularist and accepting...even after the deaths of his father and two of his youngest sons at the hands of that same emperor."

I agree with you to a point. However what becomes a sacrifice is directly proportional to the amount of attachment to said sacrifice.
 

Pukandi Baba

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Mar 25, 2006
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Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

max314 said:
I am saying that the Granth contains what I think is the truth about God...or as close as we can get to a truth about God in terms of its human linguistic expression through poetry and prose.

But this does not make it 'the Word of God'.

So you cast doubt upon this line?

Jaisi Main Aawe Khasam Ki Baani Taisra Kari Giaan Ve Lalo”. Sri Guru Granth Sahib (722).

As the Bani (revelation) comes to me from my Lord, so do I reveal, says Sri Guru Nanak Sahib.
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpo

Satyaban said:
I agree with you to a point. However what becomes a sacrifice is directly proportional to the amount of attachment to said sacrifice.

Indeed. And if one becomes aware of the fact that "All Is One" ("Ek Onkar"), then what is really a relatively insignificant 'loss' in the grand scheme of things can become an immense sacrifice to those solely in the physical world...and can yield huge changes in the physical realm.

Pukandi Baba said:
So you cast doubt upon this line?

Jaisi Main Aawe Khasam Ki Baani Taisra Kari Giaan Ve Lalo”. Sri Guru Granth Sahib (722).

As the Bani (revelation) comes to me from my Lord, so do I reveal, says Sri Guru Nanak Sahib.

If I were to say to you that "inspiration comes to me when I write poetry", does this mean that the inspiration is literally and consciously making its way toward me?

No.

It is a way of saying that I am having some kind of experience that I wish to write down. It is me amidst this emotional/intellectual moment of inspiration that occurs in a flash because one's mind is in the right place at the right time.

So, too, did this happen with Nanak.

The Bani he writes are from his experiences in those moments when he feels a superlative connection to the Spirit Of The Universe. It's like bathing in the sea, looking around, and then recounting your experiences. It's not that the sea is coming to you...it's simply that you are already amidst the sea (as we all are...we are amidst the sea of God). But when one's eyes open, they see the Universe for what it truly is.

The moments that the Master recounts in Gurbani are the moments of insight; where his eyes open and he sees things as they truly are.

His first insight was the truest and the purest.

That insight was "Ek Onkar".

This was then followed by the Mool Mantra, from which everything in Gurbani is spawned.

The elegance of its simplicity is what is so astounding as we observe Gurbani reitterating the same Mool Mantra but exemplifying and illustrating it in a thousand different ways.

I hope I've made myself clear.
 
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Pukandi Baba

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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpo

max314 said:
If I were to say to you that "inspiration comes to me when I write poetry", does this mean that the inspiration is literally and consciously making its way toward me?

There's no comparison between Gurbani and poetry that you may write.

I will admit you make your points very well and it makes sense.

The Ik Onkar shabad is the whole truth, and that is what should unite all religions, but instead, it segregates us.
 

max314

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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpo

Pukandi Baba said:
There's no comparison between Gurbani and poetry that you may write.
Haha...I'm not saying that I have experienced God on the same level as Master Nanak :D I am merely using an analogy to illustrate my point about how inspiration - divine or otherwise - functions when writing poetry of any sort, and to show how this is the metaphor that Guru Nanak was using when writing these passages.

I will admit you make your points very well and it makes sense.

Many thanks.

The Ik Onkar shabad is the whole truth, and that is what should unite all religions, but instead, it segregates us.
It does not segregate us. What segregates us is Men insisting on calling God by different names, and inventing religions.

If the Mool Mantra was not embedded in the Granth that 'Sikkhs' like to call their own and was instead found on a scrap of paper floating at sea, it would no doubt have awakened the entire world to the Eternal Truth.

It is these human names that keeps it separated from the world.

Guru Gobind Singh did not invent a religion. He invented an army. An army that was required to replace the fascist regime of the Mughal Empire with the secularist democracies that we take for granted in today's world.

In order to reach God, one cannot call oneself a Sikkh, or a Muslim, or a Hindu...for God recognises no much man-made divisions. Yes, names are a necessary evil that we humans are bound to - we cannot conceive of a thing with no name and no form (which is why we falsely deify the Gurus, because it is easier to focus on a man-like figure with a form and a name than the True Guru who has none of these). But that does not make these names True.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji recognised this before anything else.
 
Aug 27, 2005
328
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-Sikh's journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar Viewpoint)

Wow! This is a tough thread for someone with meager knowledge and understanding.:confused: However I do have a couple comments to making up names of God and names of religion

I am of the opinion that the names applied to religions and God are indicative of where that religion was founded and two the manner in which worship is carried out or practiced.

As a Shaivite I accept all religions because all are on a spiritual path that has twists and turns. It is unfortunate that all religions don't feel the same way.

Instead of religion being a unifier it is a great divider.:down:
 

Pukandi Baba

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Mar 25, 2006
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-Sikh's journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar Viewpoint)

Satyaban said:
As a Shaivite I accept all religions because all are on a spiritual path that has twists and turns. It is unfortunate that all religions don't feel the same way.

I've got a question veerji.

I've always wondered how hindus thought that the dieties they believe in exist in the forms that they are illustrated in. In the Gurbani many hindu Gods are mentioned but my perception of it is, they do exist, but not in the forms that i've seen them in (6 arms 4 heads etc etc)

If you could please shed a little light on this?
 

Anoop

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Mar 13, 2006
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith(Rajinder Nijjar's Viewpoint)

All i got to say is....jesus, the gurus there are no different. GOD is already here everywhere, its like the physical world is camoflauging god. God is the truth and the truth reality. Now you talking about jesus is the son of god etc. There goes your ego again. There goes your BELIEF. Anyone can become gods son, anyone can become god when they see the divine light, if its through meditation etc. Jesus met god, so did the gurus. The thing is, people who are in christianity dont actually understand it properly, they just start beliving in jesus, its not about beliving in jesus, its about god. Your trying to say jesus is the only one who god came about to. Its not that. Jesus was born first obviously jesus was present with god at first. God is god. Belief is all ego-ism, and that is what christianity shows, egoism, they like...oh my god jesus.....oh my god...jesus help us...MIRACLE...MIRACLE...Ohmy GOD JESUS!!. No offence but christianity have to much ego, they dont actually understand the bible or jesus as much.

Im not saying this because your mentioned 'unlike nanak'...to tell you the truth, there is no race when referering to who met god first. We were all with god before this physical world came about. We were all with god, when you come to the physical world, we all forget about god, and to remember god and not breaking gods promise we have to realise god. Jesus was wise enough to do this, and god came to him through his concious. He realised god, and then started to preach.. The same goes for Guru Nanak De ji, and the gurus. The thing is, we dont belive in miracles, christians do because of ego-ism. God is realised in different times when there is a need!!!
 
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