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Mar 22, 2006
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

This topic of Jesus being the (only way, the son of God, dying for man's sins) is so shallow.
Lets look at the claim that he is the ONLY way.
The "Way" in Sanskrit, the oldest written language on earth is Dharma
When a saint of any path says, "I am.." he is telling the Truth. TO know one is the I am is the absolute truth.
One should evolve to that awareness in which one is the "I am"
To know the Way, the Dharma is to be the Dharma.
Son of God. We are 'sons and daughters' of the Creator. Even Christ said we are all sons of God.
He knew it and those around him hadn't realized it and they still don't.
Dying for man's sins. Jesus didn't die for all mens' sins or we would all be without sin. We have an ego, God Created it and its for us to humble our egos before the will of God.
Christ as a spiritual teacher could take on the karma of his students (disciples) or others who he chose by his divne will.
Guru Harkrishan (the 8th) Sikh Guru took on the karma of Delhi and died at 8, washing the karmas (sins) of the those who had contracted the dis-ease.
As a Sikh, I don't worship the man. I worship and pray to the One God that I live my Guru's teachings.
My Guru is the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. It has no personality.
That is the uniqueness of Siri Guru Gobind Singh. He didn't ask his Sikhs (Disciples) to worship him or call him God. He chastised those who would and told them they would go directly to HELL!
OUr Guru is the Word of God, the Shabd.
There is no comparison to this in world history. We are not the evolution of Islam, Christiantity, Hinduism Buddhism, or Judaism
Even B'hai says it is the evolution of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed. Bahaulau is the 9th incarnation of this soul. The Bab is the 8th.
What Christ taught, what Bahaulau taught, what Buddha lived and taught, what Krishna taught is the same as Guru Nanak right on through Kabir, Sheik Farid, Guru Gobind Singh. There is ONE Creator, One Truth. Each of us is a spark of light from the Original Light. WE are Hu (Light) man (mind).
By the way Buddha didn't even mention God, why does he need to. He live a path of humility and service.
We are Human Beings (Divine Beings)
We have not realized it yet. By God's Grace we eventually will.
Maybe this is Hell and these great evolved souls come down to this place to show us the way out of hell. We are under some illusion that this is earth and that hell and heaven are something beyond this place.
To be reborn, to reincarnate and forget one is that light, that one is Divine, is Hell. Just ask Kabir. His sacred hymns are in the Siri Guru Granth, not the Koran, the Vedas, not the Torah, not the New Testament of the Bible.
Guru Nanak tells us of the terrible world ocean and how to cross it.
To keep the Name of God in our hearts, on our breath and in our minds.
This path is for the disciplined, not the believer. We practice a holy way of life. That is Sikhi.
To commit to God's Will, that is Khalsa!
You cannot convert to this path. You cannot be born into it. You are already it in your soul and you know it through the Divine Guru.
Jesus means-savior from the Hebrew Yashua
Nanak means- Humility/without ego from the Sanskrit
Guru means, one who teaches us the Gur
One who guides the disciple from the darkness of spiritual ignorance to the Light of Truth.
"He who has ears, let him hear my words".
"You are the Light of the world, let you light so shine that all may see"
"Be ye therefor perfect, even as you Father in Heaven is Perfect"

All this was taught to his closest disciples by Jesus the Christ.
Until you can realize God is all, and see God in all, you are not a Christian, nor a follower of any Jesus.
You are just fumbling around trying to find your center.
Lets pray to God we all do. This world needs more saints.

Through Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh, may Thy Name forever increase and may all prosper by Thy Grace.

S.S. Sathanuman Singh Khalsa
Mukhia Jathedar
Guru Nanak Niwas
a Khalsa since 1974
a practicing Sikh since 1971
 
Aug 19, 2005
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

In Sikhism, when we die, we don't go anywhere. We are still in the center of God. Where can you go where God is not? Moses preached the kingdom of God, because he was aware of Jesus' teachings. hukam is the way things are, not the way we want them to be. Now if you read Anand Sahib ang 971 for about 4 pages, Sachey Sahiba kia nahee ghar tere. True Lord, who lack anything in Your House. And Psalm 23 "Adonai Ro'ee lo ehsar" The Lord is my shepherd friend, I will lack nothing. It's the same. God is all, we are only a product of His hukam will. Nanak realized this and blended with God. Read Jesus' prayer in Johns Gospel. Can't remember the chapter, 17, 19, 24? I don't have Bible at hand right this minute. Jesus prayed that we would all be one like he and God are. We become one by not being suckered into our ego, etc.
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 26, 2007
139
5
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Yes, the essence of the christian message is very similar to our own. It has been corrupted by time, politics, war and greed to become its now present form, exclusive and prejudicial of other faiths. I think any sane, rational person who is not afflicted by the righteousness of "faith" will be open to this argument.
 
Mar 22, 2006
27
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Dear Sir, I think you mean't Jesus preached the "Kingdom of God" is within us because he was aware of Moses' teachings who lived a thousand years before him. I agree with your assessment on the HOKUM. Yes, the comparitive relationship between Anand Sahib and 23rd Psalm is great! The so-called "Lord's Prayer" (Matthew, Chaptar 5) from the Sermon, Christ gave his closet disciples, often referred to as the "Sermon on the Mount". The key is he went away from the multitudes and taught the inner teachers of the Master. In that realm he taught his students how to pray. The prayer was probably a Jewish prayer he learned from his youth.
By the way the 22nd Psalm is what Christ sang on the cross as he hung. Its is a also a message like Guru Nanak Dev ji that I find as one reads it and meditates on it, one becomes the poet (David) who sang it originally. As in singing and meditating on Siri Guru Granth, one becomes the Guru. Jesus, like Guru Arjan Dev was teaching as he was tortured so when the future sacrifices of his followers came, this would give them the divine words to know in their hearts.
thanks for your words of inspiration and wisdom.


Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa
Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 26, 2007
139
5
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Yes, interesting how it seems we are the only ones who reach out and say, let all be one? Anyone getting the message yet?
 
Mar 22, 2006
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Sat Nam Khalsa ji.
Yes, that is our role now. This why Guru Gobind Singh came and lived his life. He directed his Khalsa to stand for Truth, Justice and Be the LIGHT!
I am blessed I was born into the family I am. I am blessed that my destiny brought me a humble, fearless teacher. I am blessed I continue on this path of Dharma. I am blessed to be the son of Dasmesh.
This is our time. We must inspire Christians to be Christ-like, Jews to live the life of a Messiah, Hindus to be fearless like Sri Krishna and Shiva, Hanuman and Ram. We must inspire Muslims to live the life of a humble man and woman of service. We must imspire our Sikh brothers to recognize that women are the Grace of God and we wouldn't be here without them.

If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all!
 
Aug 19, 2005
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Of course Jesus knew how to write. He even was admired by the scholars of his day. First read the New Testament, then tell me that it teaches Jesus did not know how to write.

Not all Christians believe Jesus is God. But all Christians believe that God is the Father of all creation. Psalms teaches that we are Gods and sons of the Most High. This is not against Guru Granth Sahib. Bible is difficult to understand, because many people teach the wrong meanings in the Bible. Guru Granth Sahib is also being misunderstood. People call Sikhism reformed Hinduism, and the Brahmanized Government of India sponsored modern scholars of Sikhism to say so. They even misquote Gurbani.

You all need to study Guru Granth Sahib, then discuss philosophy on this link, so that you all don't attack each other.
 
Feb 15, 2006
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"Not all Christians believe Jesus is God."

Yes they do. It's fundamental to Christian belief that God incarnated as a human in order to liberate people from their sins by the sacrifice of his death. It's based on older religions, the annually dying god-men like Horus, Osirus, Attis, Mithras, Dionysus-Bacchus. It's kind of a mish-mash of Judaism and the Egyptian, Greek and Roman religions of the time. There are literally hundreds of spurious scriptures which were removed from the Christian canon due to narrowing the view of what is orthodox. Many of those scriptures reveal radical ideas long supressed in modern Christianity. Some bear parallels with Hinduism and Buddhism, some are like the paganism of the Greeks and Romans. Modern Christianity is definitely an invented religion, altered to suit a particular interpretation. Even the 4 gospels scholars can prove have been altered and rewritten.

Tradition teaches Jesus was born December 25. Coincidentally, this is also the celebrated birthday of Mithras. The pagan dying god was resurrected from the dead during Easter, the month of Astarte/Ishtar/Isis symbolized by the fertility of an egg. Christianity is simply watered down mythology of paganism.

BTW, all these pagan god-men were also born of virgin mothers. That was the proof they were divinely sired and thus greater than human. Some heroes were demi-gods with both human and divine characteristics. Christianity had councils and debates lasting hundreds of years which establish orthodox doctrine. Jesus is both fully human and fully divine per orthodoxy. As symbolized in the trinitarian letters IHS which stand for Iesous Hominus Sanctus (Jesus the god-man).

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the god Mithras, slayer of the bull. Early represntations of Saint Michael the Archangel slayer of the Dragon/shaitan come from this, as does Manjushri, the bodhisattva of wisdom who slays delusions of the mind. (Buddhism, particularly Pure Land sect were influenced by Manichean Christians fleeing persecution and genocide by the orthodox.)

Roman soldiers were the staunchest devotee's of Mithras, the Sol Invictus (Invincible Sun). The wealthy would slaughter a bull, and literally be drenched in the blood of a bull. The poor could only afford a lamb. This is the foundation of the teaching washed in the blood of the Lamb, refering to Jesus. Originally, they literally were washed in blood.

Also, because it was a soldier religion, the themes soldier for Christ remain.

And Jesus was then, is now considered a solar deity, per relationship to Zoroastrianism, the forces of light battle the forces of darkness. Sun of God. Son of God. The communion host in it's disc-like circular form is no accident either.

In Persian belief, Ahura Mazdah ("Lord Wisdom") was the supreme god, he who created the heavens and the Earth, and another son of Zurvan. Atar, his son, battled Azhi Dahaka, the great dragon of the sky, and bound it in chains on a high mountain. The dragon was, however, destined to escape and destroy a third of mankind at the final reckoning, before it was slain. Ahura Mazdah was the god of prophetic revelation, and bore both Ahriman and Ormazd.
As leader of the Heavenly Host, the Amesha Spentas, he battles Ahriman and his followers to rid the world of evil, darkness and deceit. His symbol is the winged disc.

Ahura Mazda

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Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God. Christ symbol. Catholic priests do a puja where the body and blood of Christ is put in bread and wine. When they eat this, they believe they are taking God into themselves. Jesus = God to them. The host or round bread which has become the god is put into a monstrance, which is sunburst shaped to recall the Sol Invictus (Sun god). This round bread is then worshipped as god by Catholic Christians (the earliest form of Christianity).

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Another early symbol of the crucified god...but it's not Jesus, its Orpheus Bakkus. As the Christian crucifixion on the left retains the Bacchian symbol of grapes for wine. The third picture is the god Bacchus-Dionysus, as the grape personified, just as Jesus also becomes the literal wine and bread.

In Roman mythology, Bacchus (in the Greek, Dionysus) was the God of wine, intoxication and madness. Many of the miracles later ascribed to Jesus were first performed by Dionysus, including turning water into wine and a miraculous resurrection. Bacchus
 

Khalsa1699

SPNer
Apr 8, 2007
10
1
Hi Rajs,

1. Enjoy your spiritual journey in Christanity where only 'Choosen Ones' lead to Salvation. Why selected ones? Interestinlgy, i met another convert to christianity who thinks only Christans can lead to Salvation which is again contradictory to what Bible says? Sikhism believes anyone can achieve salvation irrespective of the religion that they follow if they endear God in their heart and daily actions.
2. Bible said 'Earth was Flat' and All planets revolve round the Earth which was proven compeltely wrong. Church forced Copernicus to drink poison for saying truth?
3. Christian concept of Jesus as son of God. Sikhism regards all as the children of God. If he is the son of God then who are everybody else who exactly like Jesus and have same flesh and blood.
4. Christanity advocates infant baptism. Is this justified to baptise an infant who deosn't understand its meaning. In Sikhism infact baptism is discouraged. One should only become a Khalsa when they are able to fully understand the duties and responsibilities.
5. You have special day for worship, sunday. Why sunday because it's off or world was created on this day and rubbish blah blah blah when Days were named billions of years ater the earth was formed. There is no special day like Sunday or Sabbath for worship in Sikhism. All days are equal.
6. Christianity believes in Heaven and Hell as physical entities. So can you tell me which place on earth or which planet the heaven is and hell. In Sikhism there are no such physical places. If you want to compare Hell is equivalent to the cycles of births and deaths and heaven is equivalent to the soul merging with God.
7. Christanity doesn't believe in reincarnation when 30% of most advanced society of USA believes in it and so do Sikhism.
8. Christians have preists. Guru Gobind Singh abolished the priestly class making Sikhism free from their weaknesses and egos, the only priest is the Living Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib which contains all the knowledge and which is available for reading by any Sikh.
9. There is no sciencitific reasoning on Christan bible where as Guru Grath Sahib is full of Scintific stuff. Big Bang and other theories explained void before creation of universe and also predicts previous deaths of the universe and going to die again and so does SGSS (Sri Guru Grath Sahib).
10. What the modern scientists have discovered after years and years of reasearch and spending billions on their telescopes, Guru Nanank Devji wrote 500 years ago "There are earths, beyond earths, beyond earths' (SGGS p 3), There are skies above skies and earth below earths (SGGS p5)
11. Guru Nanak Devji wrote about Life in Plants (SGGS p 472) where as Indian Scientist Jagdish Chamder Bose discovered it first time and received Nobel Prize for this in 19th Century.
12. SGGS p.24 states "Many millions are the winds, waters and fires. Many millions are the countries and realms of the universe.
And World never knew of these different realms of the universe and Einstein's gave concept of 4th dimnesion Time. And now Super String theory thinks there are 10 different dimensions of the universe and critics of Super String Theory belives there might be more. And Guru Nanak Devji wrote all this 500 years ago.
13. Jpauji Pauri 34 states, "The Almighty created nights, seasons, days and weekdays. So also air, water, fire and space. In the mututal gravitation of these, He installed earth in this space for righteous actions. Therein He created life of different kinds and colors. Whose names are varied and endless". The Guru further says "The extent of His creations is known to none. The more we state the more remains to be stated".
And concept of Gravitation between heavenly bodies came much later than this. And Herbert Spencer used the same wordings much later when he writes "the more is known, the more grows the unknown. Ultimate scinetific ideas are all representations of realities that cannot be fully comprehend. (Herbert Spencer First Principles p 56)
14. Or Gurus never said they were God or send by God. They were mystics and increased their level of Consciousness, by their mystical experinces, to the stage where they could (And they say anybody could if willing to) communion with God. And Albert Einstein appreciates mystical wonders in 'The World I see it)

The list is tooooo long for you to read and me to write but if you still would like to know i can send you LOADs more stuff with GENUINE REFERENCES to claim my stake based on scholarly study and archives and not just copy/paste work without references. And the more i read the more i find THAT SIKHISM SCRIPTURE IS BASED ON EQUALITY OF PEOPLE, LOVE FOR GOD, EVERYBODY COULD REACH GOD, COSMOLOGY AND MANY INNER SECRETS.

And those people who don't understand their own religion and wander, i'm sorry to say but they keep wandering every time they transmigrate till they find the truth but truth is just ONE whether you find it in Sikhism, Hinduism or Christanity. Sorry for the harsh words but as i say TRUTH IS TRUTH AND THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH.

Regards
Harpreet Singh
 

Khalsa1699

SPNer
Apr 8, 2007
10
1
You wrote 'It is ironic, that the original message given by Nanak “there is no Hindu nor Muslim but all are equal,” ended up forming a new identity, to be called a Sikh (disciple) or, to be known as Khalsa (pure) if baptized.'. Let me explain you the bit background of this

In its essential beliefs Guru Gobind Singh introduced no change. His Sikhism was that of Guru Nanak, believing in the One supreme Creator who was without form or substance and beyond human comprhension (Jap Sahib), let alone taking birth in the form of human. He condemned the worship of idols (Jap Sahib). HE simply gave the institution of Guruship a permanent and abiding character by vesting it in the immortality of the Granth and in the continuity of the Khalsa Panth. Like Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh believed that the sovereign remedy for for the ills of mankind was nam - a life of prayer. He did not alter the form of prayers - the Adi Granthremained the scripture; his own works never accorded the same sanctity. He disaaproved of asceticism (Sabad Hazare) and ridiculed the caste system. His motto was: 'manas ki jat sab ek hi pahcanbo' - know all mankind as one caste. Like Guru Nanak, he believed that the end of life's jurney was the merging of the individual in God (Akal Ustat). The only change Guru Gobind singh brought was to expose the other side of the medal. Where as Guru Nanak had propagated goodness, Guru Gobind singh condemned evil. One preached the love of one's neighbour, the other the punishment of transgressors. Guru Nanak's God loved hs saints; Guru Gobind's God destroyed his enemies. The results were visible within a few months of the famous bapitismal ceremony when a sect of pacifists was suddenly transformed into a militant brotherhood of crusaders. (Guru Gobind singh told this is Zafarnaama to Aurangzeb in which he said why he chose this path). That was need of the time or the all beleivers would have terminated. The hills around Anandpur began to echo to the beating of wardrums and military commands.

The complexion of the Sikh community also underwent a radical change because up until that time the leadership had remained in the hands of the non-militant urban Khatris from whom the 'masands' had been drawn. They had been quite willing to pay lip service to the ideal of a casteless society preached by Guru Nanak but they were not willing to soil their lips by drinking 'amrit' out of the same bowl as Guru Gobind singh wanted to do.

All these changes happened to protect the orginal doctrine and there was no change in the basic philosophy. Guru Nanak started new religion becuase others were biased at that time and full of false ideas and preaches no truth. The initial identity was such as that of person seeking spiritual enlightment and later transformed to protect the faith from being terminated by infidels.

Above all, Sikhism never preached the wrong ways of converting people from other religions like Islam and Christians who are still engaged in these wrond doings. sikhism is the only religion whose Scripture could be claimed by Sikhs, Hindus or Muslims because Saints/Fakirs from all the major faiths of the time contributed in the Scripture. No other religion is unbiased as Sikhism.

Sikhism beleives in the divine spirit which every human contains in them. If that wasn't the case there was no need of such a high level of consciousness as we have.
 

ripdrool

SPNer
Aug 17, 2005
10
0
55
I am a Christian by choice because of faith and other personal reasons. When I was a "baby" christian I had many ill concieved notions about Christ and the Bible. What I found was that many practicing Christians go by the traditions of men and not the traditions of what Christ was about.

When you look at the Bible you should realize that it's actually the history of the family of Jesus leading up to his birth, death and resurection and his families struggle with the great evil who is Satan. Infact many passages of the Bible are "so and so begat so and so who begat so and so" and so forth. It's the story of Jesus Christ's family starting with Adam and the direct battle against Satan who rebelled against God in heaven. There are many Bible scholars who don't believe Adam was the first human created. If he was who did Cain go marry in the land of Nod?

But back to my point of traditions of men. Many Christians believe Christ was born on December 25 which is a total impossibility. He was more than likely born during the middle of September. He might have been concieved around the modern Christmas though. But we must realize that the early Christian church was cultivated in Rome who had many pagan beliefs. Those beliefs mingled in with the teachings of the Bible till we had holidays like Easter which isn't even mentioned in the Bible. In the actual documents the Hebrew word for Passover is used. But because of the early Christians hatred for Jews they tried to seperate themselves from the Jewish holidays and the people who killed Christ. What they forget is that the Bible tells us is that there should be no hatred towards Jews because they were chose to do what they did.

Today in the Christian church there are many denominations or divisions of belief ie. Catholic, Baptist, Penecostal, Episcopalian so on and so forth. Some of these denominations have killed others of different denominations because of differing beliefs. I can Imagine God not being very happy about that. And I can believe that God can't be happy about Christians who judge anyone else. According to the Bible only one person has been sentenced to die in hell and that's the son of perdition or Satan. Judge not or you will be judged are words from the Bible. The story of Moses and the Pharoh come to mind. God himself hardened the heart of Pharoh. Should Christians judge Pharoh because God himself hardened his heart towards Moses and the Israelites? Christians need to hate the sin and not the sinner. This isn't to say that there aren't laws that should be followed. Christ said himself that he came not to change one letter of the law. Christ also said to give onto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and give unto God what is God's. Which can be translated as live under the laws and rules of a just country while still being a Christian. Fortunatley I live in the U.S. where some very wise people almost 250 years ago allow me to worship in the matter I decide as long as I'm not infringing on the rights of others. I'm a Christian living under personal Christian laws while living under the just laws of the United States which allow me to do this. I served in the military to protect the rights of everyone in this country to believe as they please.

Christ never demanded anyone to follow him. He never forced anyone to see like he did. Even his apostles goofed up and forsake him yet he still kept them around. Christ set forth an outline for a way in which we could live peacefully and in harmony with the world and others around us. Yes as Christians we fall flat on our face but we try to get back up and start from where we left off. One of the Apostles asked how many times should we forgive someone? Christ said said seventy times seventy if you have to.

I chose to believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. I believe his words are sacred and good..It's men that have twisted them around to thier own dark needs. We all have to sail our own spiritual boat. And though I believe in the Bible and it's words I also see the wise words of the Gurus. This wisdom should be respected as all people who believe in good should be respected.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in evil and that it exsists. I think we as good people should bond together to do our best to make sure that evil doesn't try to control what we believe or how we believe. I think there is evil lurking out there hiding under the banner of Christianity and other religions. This evil takes form in not being able to see the good in things and only the bad. This evil tries to tell us how to believe and how our salvation will be found.

Like the Bible says.. We must be wiser than the serpent. I don't wear my religion on my shirt cuffs. I would prefer people to look upon me as a good person and then ask why I am a good person. I want my deeds to be what is good and not the reputation of my religious beliefs. I want to sit next to the ***, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or any other person as friends as long as they don't force me to believe like they do. It's when they try to take that freedom away is when good people need to take action.

Peace be with all of you,

Mike.
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
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Sikhs are very tolerant people. For one thing don't go around "witnessing" Sikh beliefs, or trying to degrade other beliefs thus necessitating some conversion. We have a right to answer missionaries to highlight our differences or clarify misunderstandings they promote. But in Sikhism, if a Christian is a good Christian, he will have a good spiritual outcome from those beliefs and practices.

What people do not accept are missionaries prostletizing to mislead Sikhs and gain converts. Any missionary to a website of another religion is inviting criticizism of his indefensible positions.
I am a Christian by choice because of faith and other personal reasons.
Well and good. Why are you on a Sikh website answering a thread by an "ex-Sikh" missionary witnessing why his faith is superior to ours? Is it to defend and clarify Christian message which is being refuted here for audacious disrespect to Sikh people on this forum? I used to debate with Rajs 4 or 5 years ago on PunjabOnline. He spammed every Sikh website with this conversion message.
But we must realize that the early Christian church was cultivated in Rome who had many pagan beliefs. Those beliefs mingled in with the teachings of the Bible till we had holidays like Easter which isn't even mentioned in the Bible.
There are a lot of pagan overtones in Christian religion. It's audacious Christian missionaries should arrogantly be prostelitizing this doctrine to people of other religions.
But because of the early Christians hatred for Jews they tried to seperate themselves from the Jewish holidays and the people who killed Christ. What they forget is that the Bible tells us is that there should be no hatred towards Jews because they were chose to do what they did.
lets not get into the legacy of anti-Semitism. The very figure of Roman procurator Pontius Pilate washing his hands to absolve his guilt, when he was the only party with the authority to order the crucifixion, who had a wife who was a secret Christian, is all legacy of Roman Catholic Christianity. You would have to rewrite the Bible to eliminate this ancient taint. Tell it to Hitler or Julius Streicher quoting "Jewish people are of their Father the Devil."
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." ~John 8:44 (Christian Bible)
In one of the war crimes trials in Germany after World War II, a pastor who lived near Dauchau was asked why he didn't object to the obvious mistreatment, to the shootings and mass killings going on. With tears he replied to the Court. "I believed in the scripture that said after calling for the death of Christ, the Jewish people said, "his death be upon us and on our children."

You said you served in the military to defend the religious freedoms of others. Yet, you served in the military obeying the political and tactical commands of your superiors. The American military has been embroiled in human rights violations, training torturers of other military regimes (El Salvadoran, Guatamalan, etc. So, while a noble sentiment, the truth may have little to do with freedoms for anyone. You were a soldier, not of your own convictions, but of the agenda whose forces you served. The military is about professional killing to protect the interests of the state, not spiritual or even democratic idealism. It protects economic interests first and foremost because the United States is a corporate democracy.
"U.S. personnel were present in interrogation and torture rooms, in Guatemala in 1989 when Sister Ortiz was kidnapped, taken to a secret prison and repeatedly raped and tortured by troops commanded by General Hector Gramajo (a CIA asset and graduate of the U.S. Army School of the Americas). Eric LeCompte, Dir. of SOA Watch, who lived in a Washington, D.C. Assisi Community where Sr. Ortiz lived for a decade, describes Sr. Ortiz screams in the night. Ortiz said there are more than a half-million survivors of torture living in the US; more than 150 governments, led now by the US, engage in torture: Many of our fellow Americans wear a blindfold hiding from the truth of what our government is doing. But each of you has eyes to see, ears to hear, and a voice to oppose this crime against humanity."

http://www.archive.org/details/ortiz
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Legacy of the wealthy in North America. Victims of El Salvadoran Death Squad. Four Murdered American nuns.
They were killed by the Salvadoran National Guard. They were pulled from their vehicle, raped, shot, dumped into a ditch, and this was a typical Salvadoran death squad operation. This one got a lot of the attention in the press in the U.S., because victims were American. Although at the time, U.S. officials actually tried to excuse it, Alexander Haig, I believe it was Alexander Haig spoke publicly about there being an exchange of gunfire, which implied these were pistol packing nuns who had to be brought down in combat by the Salvadoran forces. Jean Kirkpatrick actually said, well, these were not real nuns, her suggestion being that they were activists and this somehow -- she seemed to be suggesting this somehow legitimized their targeting. That was in fact the principle behind these death squad operations. Democracy Now! | Is the U.S. Organizing Salvador-Style Death Squads in Iraq?
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Legacy of the Salvador Option.
Special Forces May Train Assassins, Kidnappers in Iraq - Newsweek The War in Iraq - MSNBC.com

Christianity does not believe in religious equality or religious freedom. It believes in the inherent inadequacy of all religious systems without conversion to Christ. It gives the Divine Commission to go out and win souls to Christ believing those souls are condemned along with their religious convictions without conversion. Christians do not see any spiritual validity In Sikh Guru's. But they want people to think they do. Just like they say Sandhu Sundar Singh was a good Sikh. And a good example for all Sikhs. You are talking a lot about forgiveness for the mistakes of Christians. But you do not even acknowledge how insulting is this missionary thread you are responding to.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 (Christian Bible)
I want to sit next to the ***, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or any other person as friends as long as they don't force me to believe like they do. It's when they try to take that freedom away is when good people need to take action.
Who is talking about taking action against whom?
Fortunatley I live in the U.S. where some very wise people almost 250 years ago allow me to worship in the matter I decide as long as I'm not infringing on the rights of others. I'm a Christian living under personal Christian laws while living under the just laws of the United States which allow me to do this. I served in the military to protect the rights of everyone in this country to believe as they please.
I live in the United States where 250 years ago some "very wise" people butchered my ancestors to a point of extinction. I don't even want to hear about freedom of religion. Is that what the US did to the ghost dance of Wavoka practiced by Lakota Sioux at Wounded Knee Creek?

The "wise" people who participated in this massacre of over 350 unarmed men, women and children in 1890 were applauded all over America. Twenty soldiers were given Congressional medals of Honor, the highest military award in the land for participation in the slaughter, which to this day remain unrescinded.
WoundedKneeMasacre.jpg
wndknee.jpg

Freedom of religion in the USA. Don't believe in it. Never trust it.

In February 1890, the United States government broke a Lakota treaty by adjusting the Great Sioux Reservation of South Dakota, an area that formerly encompassed the majority of the state, into five relatively smaller reservations. This was done to accommodate homesteaders from the east and was in accordance with the government’s clearly stated "policy of breaking up tribal relationships" and "conforming Indians to the white man’s ways, peaceably if they will, or forcibly if they must." Once on the half-sized reservations, tribes were separated into family units on 320 acre plots, forced to farm, raise livestock, and send their children to boarding schools that forbade any inclusion of Native American traditional culture and language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre
Amnesty Magazine
"Bury my heart at Wounded Knee.
Deep in the earth.
Cover me with pretty lies.
Bury my heart at Wounded Knee."
~Buffy Sainte Marie
 
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ripdrool

SPNer
Aug 17, 2005
10
0
55
For some reason you have decided to become semi hostile towards me and the post I made. You quoted the parts you didn't like but seemed not read or care about the parts where I said that Sikh Gurus were very wise and should be respected.

I don't like the "Militant" Christian Missionarys who go out and blast other religions in hopes of converting them. The converts they get are gonna be blinded by hate and that isn't what Christ was all about. There are few things worse than a bad person who portrays themselves as a Christian. You will find these people spreading the ministry of Christ by using threats and fear instead of loving and understanding. These people curse and look down on people of other faiths before getting to know them or the situation they are in.

I think the real basis of Christianity has many things in common with Sikhism. I don't expect Sikhs to believe like I do if they choose not to. I don't see anything in the Sikh beliefs that would lead me to believe that they demand that I practice all that they believe.

What there must be is a mutual respect for all world religions as long as those religions allow for mutual respect.

Your hatred for the U.S. seems to be quite evident. The U.S. is not a perfect place and I never said it was. But it is a place where you as a Sikh and I as a Christian are allowed to practice our beliefs. We can build temples or places of worship to whatever god or religion we feel inclined. If you don't think that's a good thing then I don't know what is.

Yes the U.S. has done some horrible things in the past and some shady things nowadays. No country is blood free. My ancestors are Native American, the blood revenge tactic was used among my people. Should I hate my people for what they did for centuries? Or should I be happy that my people haved moved beyond such things? There was war waged between the tribes of my ancestors and the other tribes that surrounded them. The horrible things that people do in wars has been going on since war began. I ask you this.. Can you do the Ghost Dance at Wounded Knee today, or are your people shot down with gunfire?

Does it not take awhile for the seeds of freedom that were planted by the founding fathers of the U.S. to sprout? Do not these sprouts need to be tended by people who want to see the fruit of that tree? Are we not seeing some of that fruit with the "modern" religious freedoms we have? Isn't it the job of us in the U.S. to continue to make sure the fruit of freedom continues? No that fruit won't fully ripen withen our life time but somewhere in the future it will.

And yes I am proud for my service in the U.S. armed forces. There is nothing you can say to me that will change that. I know that there are bad apples amongst the barrel but you will find that in all things. Even you partake of the Internet. The same internet that has videos of child molestings and scams that take the money from people who don't have much. But you still use it because on whole it's good far out weighs the bad.

There is an old saying that you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
 

Khalsa1699

SPNer
Apr 8, 2007
10
1
Rajs, you wrote
"Mohammed, Nanak, Buddha, Krishna and Ram, all died and left no, whatsoever, assurance of ever returning. Jesus, however, promised to return to establish the Kingdom of God."

Truth is you living in the world of illusion and you don't want to except the truth becuase you are afraid of it because you hope to have Physical Kingdoms with pleasures in it. So you need false assurances of dead becoming alive and you believe others to do something for your sins. This clearly shows the weak person. IF you in search of truth wash away your sins yourself and not depends upon dead people.

You can't control your mind so talking rubbish and follow rubbish. Anybody can give you any assurance and fools like you follow them blindly. Dead people are like fruits fallen from their trees who can never ever go back to the same tree. If you transmigrate you will be with different flesh and body.

Guru Nank Dev ji didn't give any such false assurances because these are not TRUE. HE says we have spark divine within ourself, explore it, get enligtened and go back to your real home, merge with God. Could also reach your tenth gate (Tenth gate is cortex of brain where if consciouness concentrates bliss is unbounded) and get Salvation while living. Depending upon your sins and the level of your soul at the time of your death, you will acquire different plane of existance (Realm). The highest plane of existance is merging with God. If God had to establish any physical Kingdoms he could have done himself. He wants enlightened soul and not Kingdoms on this physical world.

Merging with God is like a light going back to light and water back to ocean. IF you want to search God search within yourself and not on sky or in dead people. You would waste away your life and gets nothing. Then keep wandering years after years to obtain another body and keeps on doing until either you enlighten yourself and merge with god or solar system/universe dies (But you won't find any so called physical Kingdom of God). And when solar system/Universe dies and you haven't reached your real home, then you (means your consciouness) will merge with just matter to form another world in which same cycles will appear but in what physical form, only God knows.

So either keeps wandering or enlighten yourself.
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
18
For some reason you have decided to become semi hostile towards me and the post I made. You quoted the parts you didn't like but seemed not read or care about the parts where I said that Sikh Gurus were very wise and should be respected.
We are still discussing Christian missionaries on a thread started by a Christian missionary to denounce the inferiority of Sikh religion. What you as an individual think or say about missionary propaganda is immaterial if the majority of Christian organizations have a different view. What is the mainstream Christian opinion about Sikh Gurus or Hindu Gods, or the Qu'aran? I'm not talking about the abstract concept of "bad" Christians, I'm talking about mainstream accepted Christian belief. The general consensus is other religions are bad, evil, inadequate, incomplete or even inspired by the devil. So, on a thread with a topic initiated by a Christian missionary, let's be honest with the facts. I'm not attacking you in particular, I'm attacking Christian missionary perogative and justifications using your defenses of the same.
I don't like the "Militant" Christian Missionarys who go out and blast other religions in hopes of converting them. The converts they get are gonna be blinded by hate and that isn't what Christ was all about. There are few things worse than a bad person who portrays themselves as a Christian. You will find these people spreading the ministry of Christ by using threats and fear instead of loving and understanding. These people curse and look down on people of other faiths before getting to know them or the situation they are in.
They are still "spreading the ministry." What is the difference if they spread a conversion message sugar-coating it with love and understanding. It becomes all the more insidious that the message itself is intolerant of the spiritual validity of another faith.

I think the real basis of Christianity has many things in common with Sikhism. I don't expect Sikhs to believe like I do if they choose not to.
Christian missionaries attempt to ingratiate commonalities with the targeted religion. (I don't expect Sikhs to believe like I do if they choose not to.) They are already Sikhs. Unless Christians (using sophisticated approaches) introduce people to new conversionary beliefs where they are given a choice to choose against their faith.

Have you heard about Jews for Jesus? These guys learn Yiddish, dress up like Hasidic Jews, join yeshivas and all for the purpose of ingratiating themselves into the Hasidic community in order to WIN CONVERTS. All missionaries talk kindly about the religion they desire to infiltrate.
Over the past decade there has been an alarming increase in the influence of evangelical Christianity. This growth has been accompanied by an astonishing increase in Christian missionary activities which target Jews for conversion. The annual budget for one such missionary group, "Jews for Jesus," is over $12 million. Well over 1,000 missionary groups, which actively work to convert Jews worldwide, spend over $250 million each year on their efforts. They sponsor hundreds of full-time missionaries, as well as television and radio programs, and have created over 400 "Messianic synagogues," which strive to appear Jewish but are, in fact, Christian.
Jews for Judaism Handbook - The Obsession to Convert Jews
Why India? | Mission India
Missionaries Under Cover | TIME
Because of the strong adherence to tradition by Sikhs, missionaries have attempted to repackage Christianity. Jesus is called "Satguru", church is referred to as "Satsang" and choir singing is called "Kirtan". Choir boys in Punjabi churches wear turbans to attempt to minimize the variation between Sikhism and Christianity. However, despite these attempts to disguise Christianity as a version of Sikhism, missionaries still cannot hide their intent: to destroy the Sikh faith.
Sikh Christian Evangelist in Punjab
What there must be is a mutual respect for all world religions as long as those religions allow for mutual respect.
Christianity as a world religion with a billion dollar budget geared to evangelization and witness implicitly does not respect other faiths. The imputation that Sikhs must show tolerance and "mutual" respect for missionary religions which seek to destroy them is laughable.
Your hatred for the U.S. seems to be quite evident. The U.S. is not a perfect place and I never said it was. But it is a place where you as a Sikh and I as a Christian are allowed to practice our beliefs. We can build temples or places of worship to whatever god or religion we feel inclined. If you don't think that's a good thing then I don't know what is.
I hate injustice, political lies and missionary evangelism. Massacres were occuring here just 2-3 generations ago. We have freedom to build churches to satan if we want. But try refusing immunizations for your child, that have been implicated in creating an epidemic of autism. No one had the freedom or even public referendum to debate genetically engineered foods being placed in supermarkets and contaminating organic farmland by drift. And after creating crops which were genetically altered to contain natural pesticides, the pollinating bee populations are being decimated by 70 and 80% catastrophically harming the balance of nature.

Talking truthfully about injustices isn't hateful. What is hateful is to rationalize and justify indefensible things. Stop defending the corporate mentality. They don't give a (bleep) about you. This great country lies on the bones of millions slaughtered. I'm sure you will come up with some zinger like, "it was good for Native communities to be destroyed, that way their descendants could participate in this great democracy and enjoy freedom."

Why not be honest with the truth? There is something wrong with imperialist attitudes that in this day and age still try to minimize and justify genocide.

CHRISTIAN IMPERIALISM IN THE MODERN WORLD.
Both BIA and church schools ran on bare-bones budgets, and large numbers of students died from starvation and disease because of inadequate food and medical care. School officials routinely forced children to do arduous work to raise money for staff salaries and "leased out" students during the summers to farm or work as domestics for white families. In addition to bringing in income, the hard labor prepared children to take their place in white society—the only one open to them—on the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder. Physical hardship, however, was merely the backdrop to a systematic assault on Native culture. School staff sheared children's hair, banned traditional clothing and customs, and forced children to worship as Christians...

The report says church officials killed children by beating, poisoning, electric shock, starvation, prolonged exposure to sub-zero cold while naked, and medical experimentation, including the removal of organs and radiation exposure. In 1928 Alberta passed legislation allowing school officials to forcibly sterilize Native girls; British Columbia followed suit in 1933. There is no accurate toll of forced sterilizations because hospital staff destroyed records in 1995 after police launched an investigation. But according to the testimony of a nurse in Alberta, doctors sterilized entire groups of Native children when they reached puberty. The report also says that Canadian clergy, police, and business and government officials "rented out" children from residential schools to pedophile rings...

The Truth Commission report says that the grounds of several schools contain unmarked graveyards of murdered school children, including babies born to Native girls raped by priests and other church officials in the school. Thousands of survivors and relatives have filed lawsuits against Canadian churches and governments since the 1990s, with the costs of settlements estimated at more than $1 billion. Many cases are still working their way through the court system. While some Canadian churches have launched reconciliation programs, U.S. churches have been largely silent.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/soulwound.html
Yes the U.S. has done some horrible things in the past and some shady things nowadays. No country is blood free. My ancestors are Native American, the blood revenge tactic was used among my people. Should I hate my people for what they did for centuries? Or should I be happy that my people haved moved beyond such things? There was war waged between the tribes of my ancestors and the other tribes that surrounded them. The horrible things that people do in wars has been going on since war began. I ask you this.. Can you do the Ghost Dance at Wounded Knee today, or are your people shot down with gunfire?
There was no war at Wounded Knee Creek. The action was perpetrated as a pacification effort against unarmed men, women, and children killing them with repeater guns as they ran away. STOP JUSTIFYING GENOCIDE. The Ghost Dance was banned by the American government until 1934. And the Congressional American Indian Religious Freedom Act (AIRFA) never had enforcement authority. It's a scandal that American Indian religious freedom is still suppressed in many ways. But more than that. The traditional life, and culture and language are destroyed. How can the dance have any significance now?
It is perhaps hard for those unfamiliar with the history of Native American religious oppression to realize that in our own lifetimes it continues to be difficult or impossible for Native Americans to freely practice their religions. The suppression of those practices has been pervasive...
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0095-182X%28199724%2921%3A1%3C35%3AFLAPAB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T&size=LARGE
Americans have freedoms only insofar as they are not perceived of as a threat, not too different, willing to be assimilated. Otherwise, the same fascistic attitudes and discriminations come into play. Because the old attitudes haven't gone, they're simply dormant.

UCLA Student Tasered by UCPD Police
YouTube - UCLA Student Tasered by UCPD Police
An Iranian UCLA Student quietly studying in the library was approached and asked to show his student i.d. Protesting that this was racial profiling because he was middle eastern, and no other students who were present were asked to show their i.d.'s, the student refused. The hall monitor then summoned the campus security police who responded with physical force and began torturing the student (over a library card) tasering him 5x, while demanding he "get up or be tased again." Despite the fact tasering makes movement impossible for several minutes.
On Friday March 30, 2007 at around 3:00pm, Mr. Kuldip Singh Nag, a Sikh American who was awarded the Bronze Star for his service in the U.S. Navy during the first Gulf War, was at his home in Joliet, IL when a local police officer noticed that a van parked on Mr. Nag’s private property had expired registration tags. Upon being confronted with this, Mr. Nag’s wife, Vera Kaur Nag, informed the officer that the van is parked on their driveway and was inoperable...

At this moment, the officer pulled out his pepper spray and attacked Mr. Nag. As Mr. Nag screamed in agony, the officer removed his baton and violently struck Mr. Nag numerous times until he fell to the ground. While the assault ensued, the officer was reported by both Mr. and Mrs. Nag as saying, “You f****** Arab! You f***** immigrant, go back to you f****** country before I kill you!”
[URL="http://www.saldef.org/content.aspx?a=1682[/quote]Sikh"]http://www.saldef.org/content.aspx?a=1682[/URL]
Sikh War Veteran and Bronze medal winner attacked severely, causing brain damage and episodic blindness.
Does it not take awhile for the seeds of freedom that were planted by the founding fathers of the U.S. to sprout? Do not these sprouts need to be tended by people who want to see the fruit of that tree?

And yes I am proud for my service in the U.S. armed forces. There is nothing you can say to me that will change that. I know that there are bad apples amongst the barrel but you will find that in all things. Even you partake of the Internet. The same internet that has videos of child molestings and scams that take the money from people who don't have much. But you still use it because on whole it's good far out weighs the bad.
There is a difference between "bad apples" in the military and "bad" Christians who make a poor representation; and accepted policies to genocidally annihilate unarmed noncombatants who ideologically support the opposition cause (as in the Salvador Option). There's a difference between a billion dollar global Christian Evangelism promoting destruction of religious and cultural identities in the name of Christian supremacy. Your internet analogy somehow fails to explain why anyone would justify wrongdoing by anyone. Where do our loyalties lie? With the corporate state or with humanity?
 

ripdrool

SPNer
Aug 17, 2005
10
0
55
You seem to be so very full of anger. You don't seem to be able to serperate people and bunch them all into one catagory. From what I read of your posts you believe that if mainstream Christians act a certain way then they all Christians act that way. This is a wrong way to believe.

The policeman who abused his authority by beating a Sikh war veteran was very wrong and there is no justifiable law to make it right. But he was acting on his own merrit and not representing the the other vast majority of law enforcement officers who would have never done such a thing.

Do you look down upon the Sikh who love the United States and serve in it's military? Do you look down upon Sikh who walk in parades carrying the U.S. flag proudly? Do you look down upon the Sikh who was a California Congressman? Do you look down upon the U.S. postal service for creating a stamp in honor of Sikhs? These are steps towards the right direction. Sikhs fought in Vietnam as well.

When was the last time government troops of the U.S. entered a Sikh place of worship and gun downed the people inside? There are individuals in the U.S. who are closed minded and hate anything out of the norm. You will find that in all countries, religions, and nationalities.

Sikhs aren't coming to the United States because it's an evil nation. They seem to be coming here because they realize they can make a good life for themselves and have freedom of religion. It's a nation where someone can come as a stranger and make a difference.

Pehaps you should take enough time to quote some internet stories of the good things that Christians and the U.S. have done. It may be hard for you but you can try.

Do you represent all of Sikhs or are you in a minority?

If you search the first post I ever made you will see that one Sikh actually said it was a beautiful post. That Sikh obviously didn't roll me together with false Christians who assault and threatened Sihks after 911.

All I'm asking is that you look on each person as an individual. Don't destroy the Christians who are open minded and don't force our beliefs upon other people. You might be suprised at what you find. Though there are many bible thumpers who scream and yell on Sundays because that's thier "holy day of sabbath". You will also find some of us who believe it when the Bible says that Christ became our sabbath so we treat everyday as a day of religious reflection and not just one day of the week. Many of us Christians don't believe you do evil all day and then repent of our sins and start all over the next day. We actually believe that repent means a change of heart and that you will try to not do those sinfull things ever again.

So please don't lump me in with what you believe is the mainstream Christian that you see on t.v.
 
Aug 19, 2005
163
123
64
Fremont, California
Guru Nanak never performed magic. The Janamsakhi stories were written by pandits. They are not historical documents, but that does not mean that nothing in there is true. If you believe that Guru Nanak squeezed blood out of bread as it states in janamsakhis, then this is against Guru Granth Sahib, because Guru Granth Sahib teaches Hukam razaee, which are all the natural laws of the universe.
 
Jan 25, 2007
10
0
41
Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

The 10+1 Gurus cannot lead us to God because neither they are God, nor did they claim any special relationship with God as Jesus did. The point is not how certain Christians behave but what Christ did for mankind.
Rajs

Dear Raj
Gurfateh

Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar once asked Guru Gobind Singh ji - whose relgiion is better, his own or the emperor's?

Guru ji replied - "To you, it is yours, and to me it is mine."

KOI APNI HI NAZAR SE TO HUMEIN DEKHEGA
EK KATRE KO SAMANDAR NAZAR AAYEN KAISE

You can not see others' religion with their point of view, and your point of view will always be inheriting some basic grounds for others' religion based on your perceptions and understandig of your own religion.

As far as your saying is concerned that I just quoted, there is no difference beteen the Param-Jot and Guru sahibaan. Calculating Guru sahibaan as 1 to 10 and thereafter 11th is not at all correct. Guru is not body, Shabad is Guru; and that is why Guru Sahib says - "PARBRAHM GUR NAAHI BHED"

There is no difference between Guru sahib and Waheguru ji. The difference is just one and that is that Guru is the door to the abode (Waheguru). But for the people who can not follow Guru sahib in the manner they are expected to, I remember Guru ji has said -

"Saacha Satgur Kya Kare Jo Sikkhaan Meh Chook"

Thanks and Regards
Parminder Singh
 
May 16, 2005
341
11
36
Vernon, BC Canada
Re: An ex-Sikh’s Journey in Faith

One can believe in jesus, and recognise other prophets and gurus, though we may not follow all of them and their specific teachings. We should remember that all of gods messengers have something worth while to give to us all and have good advice for our every day issues.

People get caugt up in "who's religion is better" but in reality, god does not follow our religions... he is god, the creator of us all!

I too can see alot of hate in this thread... i was told recently that when two people argue, they are both wrong :wink:

-Lionchild
 
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