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H.t.

SPNer
Oct 9, 2006
38
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikh’s journey in faith...

I'm curious.....

God created Adam and Eve.
Adam had 2 sons: Cain and Abel.
Cain kills Abel.

Hmmm....

So how did more babies get born? Who was Cain's wife?

In your post I see that you don't believe in the Bible. You read it looking for a reason to call it foolishness. Cain and Abel were not Adam's only sons.
In Genesis 5:4 see are told of these other sibling.
Cain's wife was his sister. This would later be forebidden at Sinai, but at Cain's generation the human gene-pool had only degenerated in sin for one generation. By Sinai, it had been over two thousand years of degeneration.
("over two thousand" is reached by adding up the ages in the geneology: so-and-so lived this-many years and begot this-person. These dates are actual solar years. If they were months as some assume, Cainan the son of Enosh was not quite 6 when he had his first son."
 

Dimitri

SPNer
May 4, 2006
77
5
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

All that adam, eve, cane stuff is just a story. Get over it and join the new age of thinking.
 

binnz001

SPNer
Sep 21, 2006
12
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Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Waheguruji ka khalsa , waheguru ji ki fateh.

Excuse me plz but dont u think that this guy "RAJS" is trying to just make his point?

ok let me ask u RAJS whats the proof that whatever is written in bible abt jesus is true ? I mean , c'mon grow up man , thats a christian holy book , thats what they r supposed to write ? do u guys have any proof of whatever is written in holy bible ?
Its not good to compare as u know Sikhi is a totally different thing which u wont understand but our guru's never praised there own existance , which i think bible does....

& in the beggining , u say Guru Nank Sahib DIED, Mohammad DIED , what happend to Jesus ? Dint he ? i think he did ... & if u r so sure that he ressurected , WHY doesnt any other religion confirm this ? If he really was here for mankind ????

My point is before u point fingers on others look under ur closet , Sikhism teaches us Humanity as our religion & we dont differnciate anyone as per religion , i was myself told to leave a church in goa coz it was thr prayer time & i was not allowed to attend that ... ?? Does that really what Jesus wanted ? Did he die for Humanity or he was Killed by HUMANS for some of his beleives , i think he cud have shown a bigger miracle by going invisble when he was being crucified ?


Fateh.
 
Apr 7, 2006
6
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Jesus flapped it when he was gonna get Crucified, he started saying "my lord why have you forsaken me" Guru Ajran Dev ji, on the other hand said "tera keeya mithaa lagay" meaning "oh lor your actions seem so sweet to me" when they was made to sit on a hot plate with hot sand being poured into teir head. who is greater? it dont take a genius to decide does it?
 
Aug 19, 2005
163
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65
Fremont, California
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

"Badbakht ham chu, bakhil, ghafel, baynzar, beybakh." 721 Translation I am not sure, but it is about Guru Nanak stating his shame, and unworthiness." Guru Nanak was worthy because of the grace of God.

"Main nirguniarey, ko gun nahin, apey taras peyoee." 1329 Guru Arjan Dev Ji also claims unworthiness, but only worthy because of the grace of God.

Jesus asked why God had forsaken him. I think it is the same pattern of humbleness, or is it simply a question for us to ponder about what he was going through. King David said in Psalms that even if he goes to Hell (She'ul) God is still with him. Jesus taught the truth shall set you free. Truth never abandon's anyone. It is us that abandons the truth.

Jesus used the singular version of God "Eli" or Elohi". The plural version of God is "Elohai," or "Elohim." Perhaps the singular is used to remind us that our version of God is too limited. The mind cannot fully comprehend. Kimat kehe na paya. Jesus lived as a human and suffered as a human. And I am sure he had human feelings, like crying at Lazarus' death. He even cried the night before his shaheed crucifixion asking his heavenly Father that if it was His will that this cup of suffering should paas him. Not so much a cop out attitude, but as if he was truly willing to suffer for humanity. But he said to God that if it was God's will that Jesus not be the one to suffer, then he would also agree to God's hukam will.

If you study deeply into Biblical Literature, I don't mean fundamentalistic view, but other commentaries, there are tons of things written on this topic of why God abandoned Jesus. Some commentators say that it is not abandon "sabakhtani," but offered "."

When we are about to die, we think God had abandoned us. But God does not abandon anything. Where there is anything, there is hukam; where there is hukam, there is God.

Jesus must have known that if he refused to die, the Roman government would have retaliated even more. There were lots of political problems and corruption from the Jewish religious establishments down to the corrupt Roman government. But this does not mean all religious Jews and all Romans were corrupt.

We weren't there 2,ooo years ago. The style of the New Testament is not written as a historical document, but as an interpretation of what happened with man's attempt to explain philosophically what happened.

When we get sick or ready to die, we need to examine ourselves and inquire within why we are suffering, why God has abandoned us (so to speak). If we focus on negativism, we will suffer. If we get a pure vision of reality (darshan dekh), then, as Paul says, "oh death, where is thy sting."

Dook Sukh saam. God never abandons anyone or anything. He can't negate Himself. It is us who lose vision of Him. Jesus showed his human emotions and feelings at this time for us to question ourselves when we have suffering times, so that we wake up and walk in truthfulness. sachiara hoeehe.
 

Ramnjit

SPNer
Apr 3, 2006
3
0
30
Fort Atkinson
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Asai hovve , MusillMann hovve, Hindu hovve te Sikh hovve, it dont matter we all are humans and we are all being ignorant by debating god, we shouldn;t debate god , we should debate why not god and we should just accept that
god love's every one, and the names we give for it, its name that we gave it not what it gave its self, and my freind " Raj" you put in ur description for Sikh's "It is ironic, that the original message given by Nanak “there is no Hindu nor Muslim but all are equal,” ended up forming a new identity, to be called a Sikh (disciple) or, to be known as Khalsa (pure) if baptized."

now let me explain to you that you have this wrong. The reason for Khalsa was to make the caste system come to its dimise, that people of all castes can go get baptized and become part of khalsa in which all people are equal, and it doesnt mean that people are not khalsa arn't equal, only those who were in the hindu caste who which dont believe they are can go get amrit and become part of khalsa. It has nothing to do with what kind of religion you are.

In fact i beleive that anyone can be sikh, that sikhism isnt even a religion its a way of life, that anyone can be sikh and whatever they want due to the openess of sikhism.

But some people are just not informed well enough about sikhism to fully understand it , and that is really a shame.

Also if any of you question my Picture, its a picture for the flag of Azaadistan, wanna kno more about it check out the Azaadistan thread , you can search it and you'll find a couple. It relates to equailty of all people.
 
Aug 19, 2005
163
123
65
Fremont, California
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Everyone is Sikh, because everyone is constantly learning something about reality. Many are dualistic, because they can't differentiate between reality and illusion, between falsehood and truth. All faiths teach we must learn, and it takes humbleness to learn to be happy, healthy, and successful. There is a shortcut to learning this, and that is by learning what is written in the Guru Granth Sahib, which is not a religious book, not a religious literature, but solid, truthful information we all need to learn. Sikhism is not a religious lifestyle, but one of living truthful. It is not about accepting or rejecting Jesus, but it is about accepting truths that we learn in life, whether it is from Hindus, Muslims, Christians, or Jews. Truth has no religion, but religions have some truths. It is not about universalism, but about the truth in the universe. It is up to us to explore this beauty in creation and we can share it with others, regardless of one's religion. God does not have a religion. Jesus prayed, "Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done." So, why are so many people arguing over religious fundamentalism, but noone is accepting the kingdom of God. Hukam razaee chalna, Nanak likya naal. This is the secret to living truthful, to take off the blindness we have caused by our five vices: ego, lust, anger, overattachment, passion, etc. Where is "Thy kingdom come" coming from, and where does it go to. The kingdom of God should come into our awareness. It is all around us. There is no place in which God is not. He is the center of all and all is in the center of Him. Sargun nirgun nirankar. Aad puran mad puran, ant puran Parmeshereh. God, hukam, truth, and reality are one, and it is up to us to learn where we fit in this sach kande.
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

What is up with new edition of bible every so often?
Jesus didn't know how to write jack, he didn't write the bible, his buddies who wanted to use religion to make their lives easier did.
Jesus wasn't one with God, else he wouldn't have said I am Son of God and other egotistic things he said.

We are all sons and daughters of God. Not only Jesus.

Jesus was good for that time period but now it is all about Guru Nanak. Follow Guru Nanak and be safe.

Not only that, Christians are dehdharis, they worship Jesus who was a human. In the Khalsa Marg (way of life), we sing praises of Akaal and read Bani which is to be implemented in daily life.

By becoming chela of Jesus, have you got yourself rid of jealousy and hatred?
How about control over 5 theives?

Jesus had long hair and didn't cut, do you cut?
So do you even follow Christianity or just miguided yourself and now trying to misguide others?
 
Aug 19, 2005
163
123
65
Fremont, California
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Jesus never called himself God, he did say he was one with God, and if you see Me, you have seen the Father; and we need to get to that level as well. Psalms says "You are gods and sons of the Most High, all of you. When on humbles ones self, he realizes he is not separate from God, who is in and out of everything at the same time. We are nothing but the product of God's hukam.

I wish people would stop idolizing Guru Granth Sahib and start learning Guru Granth Sahib. Many Christians put us to shame. They have Bible studies, but we Sikhs only hire a granthi to read the hukamnaa, or we just read Sukhmani Sahib then feast on langar. Nobody is learning anything. People have lavish Akhanda Paaths in the home, which is okay, but nobody is learning about God.

Why don't Christians have an Akhand Paath of the Bible. The Jews use to have Akanda Paatha of the Torah, the first five books of Moses.
 

binnz001

SPNer
Sep 21, 2006
12
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

thats a good point raised by "KHALSA FAUJ" .

No disrpects to any religion but why do christians say that jesus was son of god ? What do they think of other life forms ? A person who stays truthful & does good deeds , doesnt he get the honour of being a god's own child ? or still he has to depend on Jesus ? ? ? ?
Guru Nanak Dev Ji said we are all children of god , irrespective of what we follow
"Awal Allah Noor Upaya Kudrat Ke Sab Bande
Ek Noor Te Sab Jag Upjiya Kaun Bhale Kaun Mande"

I believe we being Sikhs , have been given the gift of GURBANI by our gurus to stay directly in touch with the Akal Purakh Waheguru.
 
Aug 19, 2005
163
123
65
Fremont, California
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Sons of God is everyone, but not everyone acts like a son of God. In ancient Biblical times, Son of God meant a king. Later on, it evolved into a warrior hero, then into a man of spiritual merits. A son of God is a product of God's hukam. Let's learn how to cooperate like sons of God to bring about world peace. It starts with you, then your family, then your community, then your country, then the world. Learn Guru Granth Sahib to know how to do this, then pass it on to others.
 

H.t.

SPNer
Oct 9, 2006
38
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Jesus never called himself God, he did say he was one with God, and if you see Me, you have seen the Father; and we need to get to that level as well. Psalms says "You are gods and sons of the Most High, all of you. When on humbles ones self, he realizes he is not separate from God, who is in and out of everything at the same time. We are nothing but the product of God's hukam.
I don't know if you believe in angels or not, but in Revelation, John sees and angel and bows to him. The angel calls John out on it, reminding him that he (the angel) is not God. So we are not to worship any but God. That's aslo one of the ten commandments.
However, throughout the Gospel accounts, people did worship Jesus. He never stops them. This leads us to C.S. Lewis's trilema. Was Jesus a madman who thought He was God, was he a blasphemer who pretended to be God, or was he in fact God Himself inhabiting a human body.
Please concider, who is this one called the Anointed Savior?
seeking after God
H.t.​
 

H.t.

SPNer
Oct 9, 2006
38
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Sons of God is everyone, but not everyone acts like a son of God. In ancient Biblical times, Son of God meant a king. Later on, it evolved into a warrior hero, then into a man of spiritual merits. A son of God is a product of God's hukam. Let's learn how to cooperate like sons of God to bring about world peace. It starts with you, then your family, then your community, then your country, then the world. Learn Guru Granth Sahib to know how to do this, then pass it on to others.

Three things:
1. Son of God (in the Old Testament) is used to refer to any sentient being, who God created directly, Angels, Adam, the body of Christ (the spirit for that body was God Himself).
2. I totally agree with you. lets make this world a world of peace. There is a Judeo-Christian prophesy that tell of a time when The children of Yisrael will rule the world in righteousness. I can't wait.
3. what is "hukam"?
 

H.t.

SPNer
Oct 9, 2006
38
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

thats a good point raised by "KHALSA FAUJ" .

A person who stays truthful & does good deeds , doesnt he get the honour of being a god's own child ? or still he has to depend on Jesus ? ? ? ?
Who is by there own works cleansed of former evil works? All your future cannot change your past. Only Jesus was always perfect, so in His sacrifice for us, God's judgment sees His righteousness not our past mistakes.
If, however, you were to have never done anything morally wrong, yes you could enter Heaven on your own merit. I'll bet almost anything that even just starting a this year you've already failed absolute perfection. I know i have.

seeking after God
Ht.​
 

H.t.

SPNer
Oct 9, 2006
38
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

In few
words ,,,,,Jesus said Come to me i take you to God, it means we have to wait long time to see jesus and then he will take us to God , as a middleman . we all know middleman is not a decision maker. Guru Nanak saidI will show a way that anybody,rich or poor, sinner like us can meet the God with out any middleman.
thanx
How could we even think ourselves worthy to come to God. He is perfect. How many times have you done wrong in your life. The Middleman is God Himself; Come to God in the name of God's salvation in Jesus and you will rule with God forever. God is calling, longing to save you. The angels rejoice everytime a new soul is added to the kingdom.
seeking after God
H.t.​
 

H.t.

SPNer
Oct 9, 2006
38
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

All that adam, eve, cane stuff is just a story. Get over it and join the new age of thinking.
If not God's special act of creation, how? Evolution? the strata do not work like a history book. The ceolicant (not sure on the spelling) dissapears for the strata 2,000,000 years ago, but remains unchanged with us today. Pollens are occationally found thousands of years before their correspending plants. Nearly all the apemen are "inconclusive" the other are hoaxes and lies.
I don't beleieve the Bible because it's what I was raised on. I believe because it is the best i have found anywhere.
seeking after God
H.t.​
 

H.t.

SPNer
Oct 9, 2006
38
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Jesus flapped it when he was gonna get Crucified, he started saying "my lord why have you forsaken me" Guru Ajran Dev ji, on the other hand said "tera keeya mithaa lagay" meaning "oh lor your actions seem so sweet to me" when they was made to sit on a hot plate with hot sand being poured into teir head. who is greater? it dont take a genius to decide does it?

Jesus said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" because He felt God's hatred toward all the sins that Jesus took on Himself. Jesus was crying out because of Guru Nanak. Any wrong the Guru did in his life was paid in full on the cross. All of us are made pure by salvation if we will accept it.
seeking after God
H.t.​
 

tatkhalsa

SPNer
Nov 1, 2006
12
0
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

as a sikh i would respect your beliefs and encourage you to follow the path which you feel is true and righteous.

However, being a student of religious philosophy, ethics and theology. I would have to criticise your understanding of Sikhism, Buddhism, Christianity and also to some extent Islam (although i am not too educated about islam), you have made a great claim that buddha and guru nanak ji did not die for a purpose, but they died and lived a normal life with some spiritual factors?...

If you read up on Guru Nanak Ji's death you will hear 1000s of different accounts. Many people claim Guru ji had simply disappeared. However, seeing my self as an intellect, I came to the conclusion that an unthinking man, would outrule suggestions of how Guru ji died. Yet Sikhs must remember that we are against supersticious beliefs and I would take comfort in knowing that Guru ji died and lived as a normal man.

As for the claim that Jesus died for a purpose, currently at my university there is a great controversy over whether jesus ACTUALLY did die upon the cross... and Rajs as you are a now a Christian I'm sure you'll know of these many different points of views.

My intention by posting this is not to say , 'Be a sikh and nothing else' but an unthinking man is somebody happy to accept what they are told, your views seem very orthodox and I hope that you are not simply picking this information from one school of thought ( as it does seem very rehe{censored}d ) if you have found God, thats great! Because my religion believes God is One. If you took the path of Christianity to find this, good luck!... However, you should look in to the facts of Christ's death...

WJKK WJKF!

oh and as for the india flag... dont ask, was born in london studying at Cambridge... but i registered to the forum when i was in india for study reasons!
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

Jesus's philosophy wasn't great enough, that is why Guru Nanak came to preach the truth and remove the wrong things in place.

Everyone is responsible for themselves. No one saves anyone.
Only Akaal saves and wases sins. Jesus dying for sins is the main concept which is responsible for corruption in the world. People think that they can do whatever and then just ask Jesus for forgiveness. This concept has also crept into some Sikhs in the form of Akhand Paaths. They believe that do Akhand Paath and all sins are gone. However, it doesn't work like that. Self improvement is what makes God happy and washes sins.
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Re: Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith...

As for Jesus dying for sins of Guru Nanak, Guru Nanak was Guru and Guru never makes a mistake, forget about sin. Therefore, you trying to prove Jesus as being above Guru Nanak is out the window. Bible isn't authentic and is changed every so often while GuruBani is the same as it was before.

No one is above Akaal.

Jesus wasn't in the same state of mind when he was about to behanged while Guru Gobind Singh Ji was unchanged by the martyrdoms of the Sahibzadas.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji said "Tera Keeya Meetha Lagai" meaning whatever God does is sweet and didn't ask God to save him or whatever.

Why did Jesus forget to write the bible?
 
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