Gurus Was Guru Nanak God?

[simpy]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Surinder Kaur ji, am I correct to say that a, lets say in present day, brahm giani, a sadhu, a saint or a Gurmukh cannot called themselves a Guru ie Sat Guru (in relation to the Sikh dharam).

A Guru i.e. the 10 Sikh Guru's can be all the above but not vice versa. Otherwise we will have "living Guru's" which unfortunately some Sikhs ( a particular sect) tend to believe in.

A Guru is the voice of God - the revealer of God’s word

Respected Kaur-1 Ji

Today or in any time period, a ‘real’ Saint- does not call himself/herself a guru. It is the followers who claim them to be their Guru.

Only a follower who himself/herself is at a certain level of spiritual elevation(a person who has some knowledge and know the value of the divine attributes) can tell about a Saint- if he/she is a real or a fake.

Saints/Gurmukhs/Brahm Gyani/Sadhu happens in all times.
These people are humble to the extent of Guru Arjun Dev Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they have the sense of Sacrifice to the extent of Guru Gobind Singh Ji has, most of all they consider themselves to be the sevaks(servants) of those who are bhagats/sadhaks/seekers and they help the seekers whole heartedly without asking for any donations(money or in kind). Their knowledge/wisdom is not for sale.

Now think about your body, from head to toe how many actions and reactions are going on, all is happening by itself- who is doing it- God. And He never claims that HE is doing all this for us. This kind of quality a real Saint has. He/She does good for the humanity and never claims it. People who recognize the truth make that person a Saint/Guru.

A guru is the voice of God-the revealer of God’s word

And God’s word is revealed to us in so many different ways. (As HE is ALL) God’s way of doing this is limitless-cannot be explained. Discussing this issue of the acceptance of living Guru or not is a waste of time.

What Guru does is show us the path, Path to God(Home).
How can Guru tell us about the path- as He is there at Home.(Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru and has the teachings from several Gurus and Bhagats who are reached Home)
Now walking the path is bhagat’s job.
Guru will assist on every step, but you have to walk yourself.
And God is going to accept your bhagti or not- it is God’s Will. Bhagat has to develop a lot of divine qualities in them to receive His Nadar.
For some it takes many lifetimes.
Many seeker gets assistance from different sources during different lifetimes. So how we learn everything depends on where we are born/language we speak/religion we follow and more.

Our job is finding our own mistakes(and correct them) and looking at others good points(and follow them).


Dharam can be a step to achieve salvation but this is not the only step.
Dharam disciplines us.
If your soul is enough disciplined otherwise(from a prior lifetime) you may not need a religion to depend on. Any Realized Soul or a Spritual Book or Souce can become your Guru.

 

[Hai_Bhi_Sach]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh,

I am very baffled to note that why do you have to make life so complicated when things can be explained very simply.

Anyone who gives you the “GUR” is referred to as a Guru. This “Gur” can be spiritual or non-spiritual. Our school teachers are also our Gurus because we have learnt something from them. Spiritually, a Guru is one who sows the seed or gives you “Naam”. He can be a Saint/Gurmukh/Brahm Gyani/Sadhu or for that matter he can be disguised as a beggar. You are unlikely to know him unless he wishes to reveal himself. The important thing is not the “Guru” but the “Naam” he has given. You can sit next to a Guru all you life but not get anywhere. You task is to populate the “Naam” the seed he has sown. When the fruits on the tree are ripe and bursting with aroma, the Sower will again enter your life to pick the fruit. Until such time you wait patiently. Remember, again the Sower can come again in any disguise but this time you will be in a position to recognise him.

We are not capable of recognising how the process works. So please, please do not try to define what you do not understand. You are just playing a game of words. Learn the example from our Gurus. By defining, not only will you waste your time but you will also confuse others. Your Sower will come and go but you will be sitting waiting for the Guru you have imagined.

As far as the question of Guru Nanak Dev ji being God? Well the answer is very simple. What is the colour of your glasses ? With green glasses you will see Green, With red glasses you will see Red. It depends from where you see him. Form the foot of the hill or the peak of the hill. From each level his appearance shall be different. It all depends what your eyes can seen. He will be seen as God to some. When he is merged with/in the supreme hi is God. When he is among us he is a Guru. The Sower of seed.

Also remember the one who sows the seed is not necessarily going to came back for you. We always have several supreme spirits on the earth with us almost all the time. They can come and guide you in body form or in Sooksham sareer (bodyless form).

The more books you read, the more opinions you will have, the more confused you will be. At the end of the day you will have to take down and throw away this burden of KNOWLEGDE. Knowledge if not handled properly will give you the disease of EGO. Then Why carry it ?

Guru Fateh

 

[simpy]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh,

I am very baffled to note that why do you have to make life so complicated when things can be explained very simply.

Thanks much for your simple explanations. i have a few things to ask you, if you do not mind please....

You are unlikely to know him unless he wishes to reveal himself.

Can you please throw some light on this in the context of Gurbani-

rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ] gurbani page-607

When he is merged with/in the supreme hi is God. When he is among us he is a Guru. The Sower of seed.

Also remember the one who sows the seed is not necessarily going to came back for you. We always have several supreme spirits on the earth with us almost all the time. They can come and guide you in body form or in Sooksham sareer (bodyless form).

Can you please explain this again in the light of Gurbani...

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ] gurbani page-695​

The more books you read, the more opinions you will have, the more confused you will be. At the end of the day you will have to take down and throw away this burden of KNOWLEGDE. Knowledge if not handled properly will give you the disease of EGO. Then Why carry it ?​

Sadh Sangat Ji, knowledge is a very good thing. See what is happening with the lack of knowledge- Pakhandi babas are flourishing and looting the public so shamelessly. And leaders are sitting back(scared of being cursed by them) and doing nothing.

And you do not throw the knowledge away, you never will, but you will acquire spiritual wisdom with simran; simran that is done with a pure mind, along with unconditional love for God and unshakable faith in Guru/God.

One has to learn. Knowledge puts us in the way of wisdom. Wisdom is experiential. It is the truth one recognizes in the external world that already resides in the internal one. Wisdom does not need digesting, deliberating, debating or dissecting by doubt or reason. It breathes within you as calm surety and perfect peace.








i humbly apologize if i hurt anybody's feelings.

 

[Hai_Bhi_Sach]

rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ] gurbani page-607

• By concealing, the jewel remains not concealed, even though one may try to conceal it.
• By concealing, the jewel remains unconcealed, unless he (Parmatma) wants it left concealed.

ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ] Please choose one and why?

(He who tastes it, alone knows, its relish, like a dumbman's taste.)

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ] gurbani page-695

1. The universe that you see outside also dwells in the body; whoever seeks for Him, finds Him there.
iQru Gir bYshu hir jn ipAwry ] siqguir qumry kwj svwry ]
Please correct me if I am wrong. This is a very unusual task I have been given.
Sadh Sangat Ji, knowledge is a very good thing. See what is happening with the lack of knowledge - Pakhandi babas are flourishing and looting the public so shamelessly. And leaders are sitting back (scared of being cursed by them) and doing nothing.
My sentiments are with you on this matter. We (Sikhs), not only need to known where we stand but also should know where others are coming from. We need to learn how they strike so we can defend ourselves and can counter attack effectively. Hence my point to Kaur-1. We should not burry our head in the sand like an Osterich and hope that the problem will go away. Knowledge from that point of view is not harmful. If is necessary for our survival. As Sikhs we are also defenders of the faiths.


And you do not throw the knowledge away, you never will, but you will acquire spiritual wisdom with simran; simran that is done with a pure mind, along with unconditional love for God and unshakable faith in Guru/God.
I have to disagree with you here. Knowledge can give you wisdom but not spiritual wisdom. Simran is a widely misunderstood term. You cannot put two swords in one casing. Although these are two distinct routes can lead to the same goal post but not all are capable to following this path.
Knowledge gives you life. Simran leads you to death. And this death leads you to the ultimate death. If it is knowledge you seek then
jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ] gurbani page-695

Take that knowledge from inside. That is available free from the efforts outside. “Buy one get second for free.”
One has to learn. Knowledge puts us in the way of wisdom. Wisdom is experiential. It is the truth one recognizes in the external world that already resides in the internal one. Wisdom does not need digesting, deliberating, debating or dissecting by doubt or reason. It breathes within you as calm surety and perfect peace.
First define your journey and whose path you want to follow. You can go on scientific route like Buddah with Wisdom and Experientation. But at the end of the day you will have to empty your vessel of knowledge for the Guru to give you parshad. So why elongate your journey. Osho Rajnesh too took the long route. This point may be displeasing to the appetite of some.
Sikhism as I see is a default route to be one with the maker. Remain in “Prem” and you will not even know the distance travelled in your journey.
kbIr pRIiq iek isau kIey Awn duibDw jwie ]
BwvY lWby kys kru BwvY Grir mufwie ]25]
The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you. A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have. Either way you have to die.You have to first find a real Gem among many fakes. So why waste time die in love of God.
If ones feeling get hurt then one is yet to become Sikh of Our Gurus.
"Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass"

 

[simpy]

Respected Hai_Bhi_Sach Ji,

You mention now-

rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ] gurbani page-607

• By concealing, the jewel remains not concealed, even though one may try to conceal it.

By concealing, the jewel remains unconcealed, unless he (Parmatma) wants it left concealed.

And in your previous post you said-

You are unlikely to know him unless he wishes to reveal himself.

It seems self contradictory.

anyways


Satguru Parsaad-
ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ]
rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ]
gurbani page 608


Here Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Ram Das Ji is telling us about the qualities of a bhagat …

Second line clearly says that this jewel of Naam cannot be kept hidden—because the philosophy of life for this person is totally different from a sansaari.
This person is living in this maya and keeping himself/herself totally detached from it. No Iness is present in this person. Is filled with unconditional love for all. Is seeing/feeling/hearing God within and without. How all this can be concealed- be these qualities are possessed by a beggar or a king-you will be able to see them.

You further mention:

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ]gurbani page-695

1. The universe that you see outside also dwells in the body; whoever seeks for Him, finds Him there.
iQru Gir bYshu hir jn ipAwry ] siqguir qumry kwj svwry ]

……

and in your previous post you said-

When he is merged with/in the supreme hi is God. When he is among us he is a Guru. The Sower of seed.

Also remember the one who sows the seed is not necessarily going to came back for you. We always have several supreme spirits on the earth with us almost all the time. They can come and guide you in body form or in Sooksham sareer (bodyless form).

The twist you made here is very interesting.

Satgur Parsaad…

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ] pIpw pRxvY prm qqu hY siqguru hoie lKwvY ]
The One who pervades the Universe also dwells in the body; whoever seeks Him, finds Him there. Peepaa prays, the Lord is the supreme essence; He reveals Himself through the True Guru.

So God dwells within us as well as all over.And Dhan Dhan Bhagat Peepa Ji is telling us that God is within and can be reached if we seek. Lord reveals Himself through the True Guru.
As well gurbani tells us over and over again-HE IS ALL HIMSELF- sBu ikCu Awpy Awip hY
Then bani tells us- THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GURU AND GOD.

My question to you is-How come sower of the seed is different than the guide?

We need to bring ourselves to a point where we see Him and only Him……


Satgur Prasaad
iQru Gir bYshu hir jn ipAwry ] siqguir qumry kwj svwry ]

Remain steady in the home of your own self, O beloved servant of the Lord. The True Guru shall resolve all your affairs. ||1||Pause||
Here Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji is telling us to learn patience and stay in faith, as HE(GOD) IS THE KARTA PURKH, TAKING CARE OF EVERYTHING. A sadhak does not worry about his/her affairs, as faith in God is strong enough and he/she has surrendered totally his/her body/mind/belongings to God/Guru. No iness is present anymore, it is Him and only Him…….


You mention:

The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you.

A true sikh, does not sit in judgment of other religions, as you yourself said

As Sikhs we are also defenders of the faiths.

a true gurmukh, respects all. as he/she see God alone within and without(Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar). indifference means there is presence of haumay(ego). and gurbani tells us


haumY nwvY nwil ivroDu hY duie n vsih iek Twie ]

The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you. A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have. Either way you have to die.You have to first find a real Gem among many fakes. So why waste time die in love of God.
If ones feeling get hurt then one is yet to become Sikh of Our Gurus.
"Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass"

You are contradicting your own words-

A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have.

Then you mention-

Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass……

Another thing I must say-
DEATH- death has to come first.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji has written all in Jap(JapJi).

In the first pauri Guru Ji says- We need to accept His Will(hukam).

In second pauri Guru Ji explains the Hukam further and tells us what happens by coming under His Hukam.-Ego dies.

In third pauri Guru Ji tells us that God leads us to walk on this path.

In fourth pauri Guru Ji mentions infinite love for God, Naam and Contemplation during Amrit Vela.




Sadh Sangat Ji death has to come first, until you kill this haumai, nothing is possible. Mind has to be purified.

Simran alone (without the inner cleansing) leads to SAHAS SYANPAA mentioned in japji sahib pauri 1. As this becomes just like a meditation that a sidh yogi does to acquire Sidhies.

And just to clarify one point-

i never said- ‘knowledge gives you spiritual wisdom’. not sure how you got that point.
Also when you are on this path, you do not drop knowledge, it comes to you. When the third eye opens, you perceive all the knowledge that is ever known. And once again..WE MUST BE CONSTANTLY CHECKING OUR EGO, THIS HAS TO BE UNDER CONTROL ALL THE TIME. Otherwise, no use.






Humbly i am only suggesting the truth, please forgive me.

 

[Hai_Bhi_Sach]

Surinder Kaur Cheema ji
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.
Brothers and sisters of this forum. If you are going to read the contents of this conversation, then Please form your own opinions on this conversations. If your do not agree with my comments, feel free to call me a madman or a fool but do not get confused. I take no responsibility.

ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ]
rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ]
gurbani page 608

The first line is the explanation to the statement in the second line. (Gurban is written in parables those who seek the truth shall find the answers within)
By concealing, the jewel remains unconcealed, unless he (Parmatma) wants it left concealed.
Only the one who have tasted the “Naam” knows the taste. The taste of “Naam” when it ripens, it drips on the tongue like a sweet Necter (This is the Jewel). It is only the taster that knows the taste but cannot explain it. Because his tongue is tied.
The “Dumbman” is excited, full of joy. This joy in him is trying to burst out. You can see it in him, the Jewel wants to show his glory but alas his posessers dumbess prevents the exposure. Guru ji prompts to us “Recite the naam and find the taste out for youself.
With due respect to you, this is the reason why I added the first line as a hint and asked you to choose one answer.
Please experience the taste and you shall find the answer.

The twist you made here is very interesting.

There is no twist. This is the very cause of confusion in ones mind. We take words out of context and then try to make sence out of it.

Satgur Parsaad…

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ] pIpw pRxvY prm qqu hY siqguru hoie lKwvY ]
The One who pervades the Universe also dwells in the body; whoever seeks Him, finds Him there. Peepaa prays, the Lord is the supreme essence; He reveals Himself through the True Guru.

This is an academics way of trying to make sense with words and without any realisation.

So God dwells within us as well as all over. And Dhan Dhan Bhagat Peepa Ji is telling us that God is within and can be reached if we seek. Lord reveals Himself through the True Guru.

Are you now not contradicting yourself here ?
The Guru gives you the “Gur” technique and you practise that technique and you DISCOVER God. We are the Gods. There is no second. sBu ikCu Awpy Awip hY

As well gurbani tells us over and over again-HE IS ALL HIMSELF-sBu ikCu Awpy Awip hY
Then bani tells us- THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GURU AND GOD.

This is where there is confusion. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GURU AND GOD and US (When you have realised it) We are all one and the same. There is no Duality.


My question to you is-How come sower of the seed is different than the guide?

Again taken out of context and from a different conversation but I will try to explain.

Think of the Farmer as the sower of the seed. Once the seeds are sown in the fields, the Farmer if he chooses to can send any one of his family members to go and tend to his crop. Those members are also his own seeds. As I had said, we have among us several higly spiritual beings who from time to time come to attend to us “The Crop”.


Satgur Prasaad
iQru Gir bYshu hir jn ipAwry ] siqguir qumry kwj svwry ]

Remain steady in the home of your own self, O beloved servant of the Lord. (Meditate and look within yourself, seek not outside)(Discover yourself)

The True Guru shall resolve all your affairs. (The Truth is within you and will resolve all your affairs) ||1||Pause||
Here Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji is telling us to learn patience and stay in faith, as HE(GOD) IS THE KARTA PURKH, TAKING CARE OF EVERYTHING. A sadhak does not worry about his/her affairs, as faith in God is strong enough and he/she has surrendered totally his/her body/mind/belongings to God/Guru. No iness is present anymore, it is Him and only Him…….



You are creating duality here

You mention:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach

The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you.


A true sikh, does not sit in judgment of other religions, as you yourself said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach

As Sikhs we are also defenders of the faiths.


a true gurmukh, respects all. as he/she see God alone within and without(Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar). indifference means there is presence of haumay(ego). and gurbani tells us


haumY nwvY nwil ivroDu hY duie n vsih iek Twie ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach

The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you. A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have. Either way you have to die.You have to first find a real Gem among many fakes. So why waste time die in love of God.
If ones feeling get hurt then one is yet to become Sikh of Our Gurus.
"Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass"


You are contradicting your own words-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach
A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have.

Then you mention-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach
Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass……



The message here is, be serious if you want to follow the path of discovery. We are trying to discover ourself and not anyone else. Your consider there to be DUALITY. There is GOD and there is GURU. – There is only one and one only. As long as you keep creating barriers within yourself, you are the one who stands to loose. It is like a dog chasing his own tail but does not realise the tail his own. (An analogy only no offence intended here – Sincere apologies if offended)



Another thing I must say-
DEATH- death has to come first.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji has written all in Jap(JapJi)……………………….


Most of Jap(Japji) is a conversationwith Sidh Log. I wll not dwell into this you will get even more confused.


Sadh Sangat Ji death has to come first, until you kill this haumai, nothing is possible. Mind has to be purified.

Simran alone (without the inner cleansing) leads to SAHAS SYANPAA mentioned in japji sahib pauri 1. As this becomes just like a meditation that a sidh yogi does to acquire Sidhies.

We treat Kam, Krodth, Lobh, Moh Ahankar as enemies. As long as you treat them as so you can never conquer them. They are your best friends and treat them as friends. In your search of self discovery, you need their help. How to use them is again a like a dumbmans sweet.
(You will aquire is sehj subaye or scientifically)


And just to clarify one point-

i never said- ‘knowledge gives you spiritual wisdom’. not sure how you got that point.

Ok I apologise if I misinterpreted you

Also when you are on this path, you do not drop knowledge, it comes to you. When the third eye opens, you perceive all the knowledge that is ever known. And once again..WE MUST BE CONSTANTLY CHECKING OUR EGO, THIS HAS TO BE UNDER CONTROL ALL THE TIME. Otherwise, no use.


This may be your experience in your journey at you stage. I do not believe in carrying excess baggage.

Dead people do not have ego. You have to be alive to detect that.



Humbly i am only suggesting the truth, please forgive me.

No apologies needed, you too are an image of god, just like me. The truth you say is your version. When you taste the Nector. Your opinion will change. I wish you luck on your journey.



My sincere apologies if I have caused anyone any offence
Guru Fatehj

 

[simpy]

Respected Hai_Bhi_Sach Ji,

Thanks much for resolving the confusion you were creating. thanks a lot...

So you say-

]

Most of Jap(Japji) is a conversationwith Sidh Log. I wll not dwell into this you will get even more confused.

Only one thing to say now----

The one who really tastes the Naam Nectaar, sees, feels, and hears what japji(and the truth mentioned in the rest of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gramth Sahib Ji as well as in any other faith) says crystal clear within and without……..
Nothing can confuse a person who is tasting the Naam Ras, because this stage comes after all the confusions are resolved, and now all the mysteries are mastered........

Further you say....

We treat Kam, Krodth, Lobh, Moh Ahankar as enemies. As long as you treat them as so you can never conquer them. They are your best friends and treat them as friends. In your search of self discovery, you need their help. How to use them is again a like a dumbmans sweet.
(You will aquire is sehj subaye or scientifically)

You resolved your own confusion for others in your post…


Thanks and thanks and thanks again………………..

 

[Hai_Bhi_Sach]

Respected Surinder Kaur ji,

Our Gurus have tried to explain the mystery by complying with the rules of Kalyug. Guru Granth Sahib is read by every one whether he is a beginner or an advanced stage of spirituality or someone just suffering an itch – The so called Academic. The message is coded. At each stage of your spirituality the message becomes clear with the Grace of the Guru/God. The code is revealed. Guru Granth Sahib ji is indeed the only Ocean of Knowledge and Mystery on this planet that tells us the truth. No comments on other religions.

The Divine knowledge will only be revealed to the Gurus Faithful and not to the Academics.

"Logan Ram Khilona Jana". This is a message for the Academics.

"Padiya Moorakh aakhiae, jit Lab Lobh Ahankaar" (Please correct me if incorrectly quoted.) This again applies to the Academics.

ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ] You have clearly demonstrated your understanding to me. Your are not wrong either in your opinion because that is what you see from where you stand. That is your reality. Do not close your eyes and think this is the end of the journey. When you come to taste the “Nector” you will understand it better. Do not take this as an insult.

The one in sleep can be awakened but one that pretends to sleep cannot be woken.

Respected Surinder Kaur ji, this traveller is fearful of the reality. It is for that reason I have to keep my distance. As someone said "Do not take away anything from someone if you have nothing to give back". I felt I was doing just that and I too have been warned. I can turn your theories up side down and show you the true colour but I am not authorised to do so. I will not be able to put you back on your feet. What I am saying here is my freewill. I have not Authority. A wise person only needs a hint to go on to the right direction. I have in my own way tried to do that if you cannot see that then you are not ready for it. I am singing the tune from the same hymn book.

You have a long way to got yet. Your tree of life has many leaves, my tree has dried out with one leaf dwindling on it. This is not pride or ego, this is bare reality. I have seen and know the reality under the guidance of very highly spirited guides and Guru Amar Das ji. I am a soul who has been touched by the grace of four of our Gurus. Life is a progression. As a sikh keep an open mind. Please learn from this lesson. Never underestimate the will of nature.

You are free to address your agreement or disagreement with me. Simply say you agree with me or disagree with me. It is best to part neutral. A wiser step would have been to ask me a question, to clear your doubts/misunderstanding if any and not to sit in judgement on me.

"Sadhu ka kehia sehj Subae, Sadhu ka kehya birtha na jaye".

"Mera muj mein Kush nahi, Jo kish hai so tera, Tera Tuj ko Sompte kya lage mera "
I am only a servant.
Wahe Guru ji ki Fateh.

 

[simpy]

Respected Hai_Bhi_Sach Ji,


Endless thanks ....
so you say

this traveller is fearful of the reality. It is for that reason I have to keep my distance.

a true Gursikh does -Aap Jappey Awaraa Naam Japaway
he/she is not aap daray te horna nu vee daraan di koshish karey


a sikh who is sitting in Guru Ji's Charan Kanwal cannot be scared of the reality. Fearless is God and so are the Gurus and the same become their Bhagats.

I can turn your theories up side down

Universe/God's word/Truth is not a theory that can be turned around or even can be written down in totality in any human language.

I have seen and know the reality under the guidance of very highly spirited guides

i know who you are, thanks much for sharing it with sangat in your own words......



one other thing i must say-

when Bani is understood in deeper terms, the basic truth behind it does not change, it actually strengthens the truth. yes there are things which can be understood from two or more view points academically but again basic truth does not get distorted......



endless thanks again Hai_Bhi_Sach Ji

 

[Hai_Bhi_Sach]

Respected Surinder Kaur,

when Bani is understood in deeper terms, the basic truth behind it does not change, it actually strengthens the truth. yes there are things which can be understood from two or more view points academically but again basic truth does not get distorted......

Your are in what you are saying. But what one read and understood in the first class is different in the Tenth Class and will still be differet when you do your PHD. Because at every stage your mind is going through a transformation, your mind understands things better with experience , the deeper you go the better you understand. The ultimate truth will remain the same throughout AADSach, JUGAADSach. Just as Water to a little child is just water to quench his thirst, but as he grows/matures you can then tell him that it is made of two elements H2O etc. The basic truth that it is water remains the same. No Change there.

When we come across something new or difference, we automatically put our defence up. It is natural. We then try and relate it to our experiences and understanding to see if it fits your way of thinking. If it does not then one rejects it. Because you have through your journey acquired a certain mind set in which you feel comfortable. Do not be ignorant. Do not slam the shutters down. It is possible that someone elses experience or opinion may be the catalyst you need to open or clear your passage. Sikh never stops learning I too learn every day.

a true Gursikh does -Aap Jappey Awaraa Naam Japaway

he/she is not aap daray te horna nu vee daraan di koshish karey

I agree, but if someone was heading in a wrong direction, would you not hold his/her shoulder and tell them that you are going astray.


The point of "drey" is only applicable to me in this context and not to anyone else. My journey is such that I have to be careful. - Please do not mis-understand me. I am sorry i cannot say anymore.


And also the fear I expressed was for the sake of those who are just begining their journey on this path. We are in a forum where everyone has access to irrespectively of their spiritual maturity.


So respected Surinder kaur ji I cannot mislead you. But it is your own will whether to believe me or not. There is no competition here. I am only trying to share my experience and understandng with you.


Finally, Respected surinder kaur ji, the death I have mentioned is the death of one desires. Desire is an element that gives you life. Take ones desires away and you will collapse. Sikhi prepares the student to die a spiritual death and to die such a death where death comes no more.

Feel free to go on your selected path but DO FEAR THIS that what if you are wrong, all those people that are now following you because of your theories, Who is going to be answerable. So tell the people that it is your opinion. Let them then decide for themselves.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Wahe guru ji ki fateh.

 

[simpy]

Respected Hai_Bhi_Sch Ji,

Once again thanks endlessly......

For a Gurmukh it is not a strange thing that Kur is performing its shameless dance in all its colors and shapes as it(kur) is bound to time and space. And an FYI- a True Gurmukh cannot be cheated for he/she is always awake(cyqMn).


Only fear a True Gursikh ever has is that he/she does not forget the Ultimate/Piayara/Satguru/God even for a second, and this is not worldly BY, it is vYrwg.

A Gurmukh does not have to go door to door and advertise his/her faith, as it speaks for itself.
rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ]


People come to a Gurmukh when they see endless courage, 100% honesty, calmness, unlimited santokh and the other unlimited divine qualities shining through the person and ask him/her from where he/she is cultivating all these attributes. A gurmukh does not have to tell others-hey your faith may be wrong, come and join mine; or be afraid of your faith it may be wrong- A GURMUKH DOES NOT TELL OTHERS TO FOLLOW HIM/HER. FOR A GURMUKH’S RADIENCE ATTRACTS OTHER SEEKERS TO HIM/HER AND THE GURMUKH CONNECTS THEM WITH THE GURU, NEVER TRIES TO BECOME A GURU HIMSELF/HERSELF, NEITHER HE/SHE FAKES IT. A gurmukh respects all faiths, our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Ji are connecting us to the infinite blessings of all the Gurus/Bhagats/Paigambars of all the times, and this is happening endlessly. After having such a blessing---

qw kau DoKw khw ibAwpY jw kau Et quhwrI ]

GURBANI IS THE ULTIMATE TRUTH. AND IT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

DHUR KI BANI DOES NOT NEED A surinder TO CORRECT THE TRANSLATIONS; IF THE BELIEF IS FIRM, IT WILL SPEAK FOR ITSELF.
surinder is humbly doing the seva, and will keep doing it; some will like, some will not- for she lives/breathes/eats/sees/feels...... that truth which no negativity can alter.





thanks endlessly once again Hai_Bhi_Sach Ji.....

 

[Arvind]

Surinder ji... Sometimes while reading your words, I feel Rabb aap bol reha. Keep us in Charhdee Kala ji.

Regards.

 

[simpy]

mY bMdw bY KrIdu scu swihbu myrw ]​

 

[Hai_Bhi_Sach]

Surinder Kaur ji,

"Jab eh kahat ki main kish karta, Tab eh garab jon mein phirta".

Who is Surinder or who am I, We are are all toys of nature. Our centre (Focal point) is elsewhere. We are only recievers controlled by the Universal Conscience. We are all living a lie. Be objective and look at yourself. You will learn more.

Peace be upon you. Exercise shanti, shanti, shanti.

Guru Bhalla kare

Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

 

[simpy]

Respected Hai_Bhi_Sach Ji,


Endless thanks again and again,

Surinder Kaur ji,

"Jab eh kahat ki main kish karta, Tab eh garab jon mein phirta".

Who is Surinder or who am I, We are are all toys of nature. Our centre (Focal point) is elsewhere. We are only recievers controlled by the Universal Conscience. We are all living a lie. Be objective and look at yourself. You will learn more.

Peace be upon you. Exercise shanti, shanti, shanti.

Guru Bhalla kare

Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

Soul is not a slave of time and space.




And learning never ends-as


swihbu myrw nIq nvw sdw sdw dwqwru ]







endless thanks again and again......................

 

[badmash]

yes, yes, yes, yes...he was not.

But perhaps we sikhs would be better off if he had said he was? We would be a more proselytizing religion. We would be more unshakable in our faith, our righteousness, our fervor, our confidence, our struggles. Perhaps we would have pushed into the middle east and central india, promulgating our beliefs of equality and earthbound duty and justice. We would be more able to stand confidently against the righteous delusions of other faiths who proclaim theirs is the only way?

I am not so sure our founders honesty has served our ultimate wellness. I think a bit of megalomania and false righteousness on the part of the founders of our faith may have stood us and Sikhi better in the long run, in terms of longevity, conviction and strength in numbers. For forgive me for saying so, but the posts above are by definition abstract and out of the domain of thought of most ordinary humans. And while some, the few, have the ability to grasp and comprehend the true way, it is by definition a way of moral and personal sacrifice and acceptance which leaves bare the borders of the modern nation to the attacks of those who believe they are better and their way the only path to salvation. :whisling:

 

[sahilmakkar1983]

goNf mhlw 5 ]
go(n)add mehalaa 5 ||
Gond, Fifth Mehla:

gurU gurU guru kir mn mor ]
guroo guroo gur kar man mor ||
Chant Guru, Guru, Guru, O my mind.

gurU ibnw mY nwhI hor ]
guroo binaa mai naahee hor ||
I have no other than the Guru.

gur kI tyk rhhu idnu rwiq ]
gur kee ttaek rehahu dhin raath ||
I lean upon the Support of the Guru, day and night.

jw kI koie n mytY dwiq ]1]
jaa kee koe n maettai dhaath ||1||
No one can decrease His bounty. ||1||

guru prmysru eyko jwxu ]
gur paramaesar eaeko jaan ||
Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.

jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ]
jo this bhaavai so paravaan ||1|| rehaao ||
Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||

gur crxI jw kw mnu lwgY ]
gur charanee jaa kaa man laagai ||
One whose mind is attached to the Guru's feet

dUKu drdu BRmu qw kw BwgY ]
dhookh dharadh bhram thaa kaa bhaagai ||
his pains, sufferings and doubts run away.

gur kI syvw pwey mwnu ]
gur kee saevaa paaeae maan ||
Serving the Guru, honor is obtained.

gur aUpir sdw kurbwnu ]2]
gur oopar sadhaa kurabaan ||2||
I am forever a sacrifice to the Guru. ||2||

gur kw drsnu dyiK inhwl ]
gur kaa dharasan dhaekh nihaal ||
Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, I am exalted.

gur ky syvk kI pUrn Gwl ]
gur kae saevak kee pooran ghaal ||
The work of the Guru's servant is perfect.

gur ky syvk kau duKu n ibAwpY ]
gur kae saevak ko dhukh n biaapai ||
Pain does not afflict the Guru's servant.

gur kw syvku dh idis jwpY ]3]
gur kaa saevak dheh dhis jaapai ||3||
The Guru's servant is famous in the ten directions. ||3||

gur kI mihmw kQnu n jwie ]
gur kee mehimaa kathhan n jaae ||
The Guru's glory cannot be described.

pwrbRhmu guru rihAw smwie ]
paarabreham gur rehiaa samaae ||
The Guru remains absorbed in the Supreme Lord God.

khu nwnk jw ky pUry Bwg ]
kahu naanak jaa kae poorae bhaag ||
Says Nanak, one who is blessed with perfect destiny

gur crxI qw kw mnu lwg ]4]6]8]
gur charanee thaa kaa man laag ||4||6||8||
- his mind is attached to the Guru's feet. ||4||6||8

There are so many references in the gurubani, that clearly illustrates that there is no difference b/w GOD and Guru(perfect master). and this reference clearly proofs that GURU IS GOD,
even Gurubani states that , GURU IS ABOVE THAN GOD,
if anyone is inquisitive about such things, i can put that references also,
Gurubani also states that perfect master is always present on the earth, this earth is meaning less without a guru(Living Guru), and Guru is that who can show u the GOD directly, when u go to him.
Just ask and see the GOD,
then u will get the permanent proof of the GURU's power, that GOD cn only show u GOD
see and then believe, other wise this discussion we are going to forget after sometime.
because there is no proof of it.

Guru Fateh.

 

[simpy]

There are so many references in the gurubani, that clearly illustrates that there is no difference b/w GOD and Guru(perfect master). and this reference clearly proofs that GURU IS GOD,
even Gurubani states that , GURU IS ABOVE THAN GOD,
if anyone is inquisitive about such things, i can put that references also,
Gurubani also states that perfect master is always present on the earth, this earth is meaning less without a guru(Living Guru), and Guru is that who can show u the GOD directly, when u go to him.
Just ask and see the GOD,
then u will get the permanent proof of the GURU's power, that GOD cn only show u GOD
see and then believe, other wise this discussion we are going to forget after sometime.
because there is no proof of it.

Guru Fateh.

Respected Sahil Makkar Ji,

You are right.

Discussions with others have no effect, unless the teachings of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are literally adapted in real life. Comparisons with others, condemning others and so on… are not going to take you anywhere.

So Sadh Sangat Ji, read BANI, and LIVE THE TRUTH, only then you will be able to see, feel, experience....... GOD IS GURU, GURU IS GOD, BANI NIRANKAAR….


Otherwise all this is just waisting your valuable time on this earth.

Satgur prasaad.


mwxs jnmu dulµBu hY jg mih KitAw Awie ]
pUrY Bwig siqguru imlY hir nwmu iDAwie ]
mnmuK BUly ibKu lgy Aihlw jnmu gvwieAw ]
hir kw nwmu sdw suK swgru swcw sbdu n BwieAw ]
muKhu hir hir sBu ko krY ivrlY ihrdY vswieAw ]
nwnk ijn kY ihrdY visAw moK mukiq iqn@ pwieAw ]


muKhu hir hir sBu ko krY ivrlY ihrdY vswieAw ]

nwnk ijn kY ihrdY visAw moK mukiq iqn@ pwieAw ]
Gurbani page 565

 

[sahilmakkar1983]

Respected Sahil Makkar Ji,

You are right.

Discussions with others have no effect, unless the teachings of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are literally adapted in real life. Comparisons with others, condemning others and so on… are not going to take you anywhere.

So Sadh Sangat Ji, read BANI, and LIVE THE TRUTH, only then you will be able to see, feel, experience....... GOD IS GURU, GURU IS GOD, BANI NIRANKAAR….


Otherwise all this is just waisting your valuable time on this earth.

Satgur prasaad.


mwxs jnmu dulµBu hY jg mih KitAw Awie ]
pUrY Bwig siqguru imlY hir nwmu iDAwie ]
mnmuK BUly ibKu lgy Aihlw jnmu gvwieAw ]
hir kw nwmu sdw suK swgru swcw sbdu n BwieAw ]
muKhu hir hir sBu ko krY ivrlY ihrdY vswieAw ]
nwnk ijn kY ihrdY visAw moK mukiq iqn@ pwieAw ]


muKhu hir hir sBu ko krY ivrlY ihrdY vswieAw ]

nwnk ijn kY ihrdY visAw moK mukiq iqn@ pwieAw ]
Gurbani page 565

GuruFateh Sarabjeet ji,

Yes, very true, Bani is great, and all the world is around Bani only,
Without Bani world cant exist.. Bani is within us.. The breathe that is going .. is because of Bani within us,
Bani is vibration, vibrating word... that is present in everybeing(all religion: hindu, muslim sikh christian)..
Yes this is true.. But m not taking the side of our Panth.. m not talking about reading the Bani.. again saying..
as this lines clearly tells that BANI is not what we are understanding...
but Bani is the power that is with in us... (SEE ORANGE lines)

and shabad about which here Gurubani is saying is also within us
and that SHABAD is BANI.
Please read the lines .. u will come to know BANI and SHABAD are one..
and within us. within our heart..
no need to speak from mouth... but we need to contemplate/meditate on the vibration that is already within us
ਸਚੇ ਭਗਤ ਸੋਹਹਿ ਦਰਵਾਰੇ ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਾਣੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
सचे भगत सोहहि दरवारे सचो सचु वखाणे राम ॥
sachay bhagat soheh darvaaray sacho sach vakhaanay raam.
The true devotees look beautiful in the Darbaar of the Lord's Court. They speak Truth, and only Truth.

ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰੇ ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਾਚੋ ਆਪਿ ਪਛਾਣੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
घट अंतरे साची बाणी साचो आपि पछाणे राम ॥
ghat antray saachee banee saacho aap pachhaanay raam.
Deep within the nucleus of their heart, is the True Word of the Lord's Bani. Through the Truth, they understand themselves.

ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਸਾਚੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥
आपु पछाणहि ता सचु जाणहि साचे सोझी होई ॥
aap pachhaaneh taa sach jaaneh saachay sojhee ho-ee.
They understand themselves, and so know the True Lord, through their true intuition.

ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਹੈ ਸੋਭਾ ਸਾਚੇ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
सचा सबदु सची है सोभा साचे ही सुखु होई ॥
sachaa sabad sachee hai sobhaa saachay hee sukh ho-ee.
True is the Shabad, and True is its Glory; peace comes only from Truth.

ਸਾਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਭਗਤ ਇਕ ਰੰਗੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
साचि रते भगत इक रंगी दूजा रंगु न कोई ॥
saach ratay bhagat ik rangee doojaa rang na ko-ee.
Imbued with Truth, the devotees love the One Lord; they do not love any other.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸ ਕਉ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਚੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੨॥੩॥
नानक जिस कउ मसतकि लिखिआ तिसु सचु परापति होई ॥४॥२॥३॥
naanak jis ka-o mastak likhi-aa tis sach paraapat ho-ee. ||4||2||3||
O Nanak, he alone obtains the True Lord, who has such pre-ordained destiny written upon his forehead.

SVJKK SVJKF

 

[GURVINDER]

you are right everything is god
but not everyone
love the humanity was the first message of guru nanak
remember it first