The "Truth" Revealed. Its An Offense To Speak Punjabi At UNO

[Sinister]

The problem seems to be a lack of trust in the GOI census.

What I am about to show you is something really cool…
What about the East India company?…surely there was no plot back in 1871 to paint the Sikhs as leaders of female infanticide.

http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/page.php?title=1881v2&action=next&record=537

main site:
http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/census.htm

turns out that in 1871 census shows a significant sex ratio discrepancy as well!

There were 10,210,053 males to 8,640,384 females in Punjab…a ratio of 0.8462
This is lower ratio than most other states under British Raj

Again more statistical consistency with that of the GOI census...things starting to look bleaker.

Lets stop denying the SEVERITY of the problem…it would be the first step in trying to fix it.

 

[Admin]

There is no one denying the problem, even a single instance of this nature is a black spot... the problem is portraying the wrong canvas... it may be worse than the most states but still not the worst.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Dear Sinister ji (Now that is an interesting concept, eh?)

The problem seems to be a lack of trust in the GOI census.

I shall shorten that by one word.

The problem seems to be a lack of trust in the GOI .

Chardi kala! :ice:

Mai

 

[Sinister]

There is no one denying the problem, even a single instance of this nature is a black spot... the problem is portraying the wrong canvas... it may be worse than the most states but still not the worst.

why cant it be the lowest? its just a sex ratio stat.

reason

data

proof

you have mine

undermining the statistic with a conspiracy theory is nothing short of lame attempt at throwing ambiguity at what would appear to be some sembelance of the truth. Not to mention mocking and degrading the hardwork of the people who have conducted the studies...many of whom are sikh.

i just did the math...even in 1871 punjab had the lowest sex ratio (female:male).

 

[Sinister]

Dear Sinister ji (Now that is an interesting concept, eh?)



I shall shorten that by one word.

The problem seems to be a lack of trust in the GOI .

Chardi kala! :ice:

Mai

mai ji ... fully understandable sentiment

oh and dont worry about the name...im a nice guy :}8-:

cheers

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Sinister ji,

oh and dont worry about the name...im a nice guy

Not a bit! One meaning of sinister if left as in left-handed which the nicest guy in the world was.

And what's in a name? I have been a very old lady from the day of my birth!

Chardi kala! :ice:

Mai (not really all THAT old)

 

[spnadmin]

Sinister ji

You have done a good job of pulling together some data. Last night I spent about an hour surfing and looking for information to contribute to your effort. There is some but it is not broken down by state. There is one excellent article - a controlled research study -- however only southern Indian states were included in the analysis.

This is an interesting pattern. I don't know if I am right. Southern and central Indian states appear to be more represented in government sponsored projects related to foeticide, maternal death, and maternal reproductive health, and the studies that are connected to them, than northern states. Why? Are there political, demographic, cultural reasons -- or am I seeing things in the rsearch that are not there?

 

[harbansj24]

Narayanjot ji,

A generous view would be that the northern states are basically agrarian states and they find it difficult to put together a team for such detailed academic studies. But the truth is that in the last 40 years or so, South has quietly galloped ahead in all aspects be it cultural, academic, technological and even sports. There are several reasons mostly cultural and attitudinal which may not be palatable to us.

But slowly things are changing for the better.

 

[spnadmin]

harbhansj24 ji

Now you are raising another issue -- that has made me wonder since this thread began.

There may not be sufficient data regarding issues of foeticide and maternal reproductive health in the northern states, including Punjab, to be able to tell whether the claims about Punjab and Sikhs are True OR False. And you point to this issue albeit a suggestion. A cultural dilemma: to move forward with GOI initiatives and in the process loose cultural identity VERSUS retain cultural identity and forgo the potential benefits of GOI initiatives. You said it better than I: There are several reasons mostly cultural and attitudinal which may not be palatable to us.

India the democratic republic, world's fastest growing economy, bright financial, commercial and technological future of south Asia is only 50 years old. This is change at warp speed! Standing on the sidelines I sometimes want to plead to Indians and non-Indians alike- please give India the space to make some mistakes! India has made more progress than many western democracies in 1/4 of the time it took to do it.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Dear all,

Let us not forget what this is really all about.

If a million little girls are murdered - before or after birth - or a lakh or any large number, this will cause social upheaval. OMG

Morally, however, it is no different than if 100 or 10 or even one little girl is killed because she is unwanted; this is a hate crime and it must be stopped!:}--}:

Of course, as a Sikh, I would be happy if it turned out that the statistics showing that we are the major killers of daughters are false. I would still ache, though, for every little Sikh girl denied life because of her gender.

(I don't mean to imply that nonSikh little girls are any less valuable; it's just that I'm writing about Sikhs here.)

Is chardi kala appropriate here? Of course, chardi kala is always appropriate for a Sikh, but no ice cream this time.

Mai

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<A cultural dilemma: to move forward with GOI initiatives and in the process loose cultural identity VERSUS retain cultural identity and forgo the potential benefits of GOI initiatives.>>

narayanjot ji

i am not clear what you meant by losing cultural identity.

i have lived in almost all places of india and i did not find any place which is growing fast losing it's cultural identity due to growth.

 

[spnadmin]

<<A cultural dilemma: to move forward with GOI initiatives and in the process loose cultural identity VERSUS retain cultural identity and forgo the potential benefits of GOI initiatives.>>

narayanjot ji

i am not clear what you meant by losing cultural identity.

i have lived in almost all places of india and i did not find any place which is growing fast losing it's cultural identity due to growth.

Huck Finn ji

You are really speaking to two different issues. One issue that you speak to is the dilemma of loosing cultural identity versus moving forward. A dilemma is always a perceived state, a perceived problem, and therefore the reality of a dilemma is psychological rather than empirical. The other issue you are speaking to is whether there is any actual or empirical loss of identity due to growth. These are two different things.

For the sake of argument let me stipulate that "the potential benefits of GOI initiatives" in fact pose no dilemma. That there is no empirical evidence that a group will sacrifice some or all of its cultural identity if it moves with the GOI initiatives. This may not be true, but let's for now assume that it is true. No dilemma in fact. That does not mean that one or another group with a clearly defined sense of cultural identity will not feel psychologically threatened and resist change or resist the "potential benefits of GOI initiatives.

So there we are left with more questions:

1. Is the perceived or psychological threat of a loss of cultural identity "real" or is it merely a subjective truth.

2. Are there any case studies or sociological studies of various cultural groups that can help us answer question 1 above.

3. Are there actual situations where groups who define themselves religiously, linguistically, historically express fear of loosing their cultural integrity and therefore resist change?

4. Can question 3 be answered using data/evidence from survey research, anthropological investigations?

There may be more questions. Those are the ones that occur to me now. In the social sciences one reads of two kinds of logic: the logic of science and the logic of meaning. One is investigated with data (seen the posts of Sinister ji) and the other is investigated through the study of the beliefs and expressed experiences of a people. Both should be taken seriously. One is not more valid than the other. In my view, to ignore the inferences that come from either the logic of science or the logic of meaning is to invite consequences that can be extremely unpleasant.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

narayanjot ji

we are both on the same page wrt the analysis approach. However, the logic of meaning, as you put it, also needs a data set to define it.

Most of the sociological research i have come across is based on large sample sets with data being gathered not only through objective questions but also through open ended discussions.

What we generally come across as the "vocal" resistance might actually be a fringe minority voice. This cannot be discerned by subjective analysis, but only through a data based and factual approach.

It's a quite famous saying i heard in college - In God we Trust, rest all back up with Data.

secondly - could you elaborate on the GOI initiatives we are talking about?

----------

on a side note:

if we are discussing sociological impact of government programs, i have seen impact in the tribal areas. The lifestyle of those people has been changed for good and bad due to the change. A few have benefited but a majority have fared badly.
I put that to poor planning and short sighted policies. A lot of work is required in those geographies.

It is similar in Africa and other developing nations.

--------

i see two major forces changing India.

Information - easy access to information through various media like tele, phones, internet and newspapers is leading to what many term as "ignition" of a billion minds. Information is a great leveler and this explosion is fast changing the face of urban and rural india.

Globalization - India might not be as hot as China for FDI but certainly it is spreading its influence in much bigger way. Access to global markets and global aspirations are driving today's youth.

There are pitfalls - inequity of benefits being reaped, poor infrastructure, poor administration

but it is easy to critique from outside. It is still a Work in progress and I can see only a bright future in next 20 years.

 

[harbansj24]

Yes Narayanjot ji, I fully agree with your well expressed views.

Now if we can deviate from the original thread, then I would like to augment or supplement what you and Huck Finn ji have said.

The comments have been made with respect to South Indians. Having observed them closely and also north Indians particularly Punjabis and Sikhs, I can say that the South Indians as a whole have:

1. Moved ahead without losing their cultural identity. In fact their temples got better. Their Bharatnatyam and Carnatic music have got worldwide recognition and appreciation.
2. Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai are now recognized internationally as IT centers of excellence.
3. Just by simple observation, the above 3 cities along with Coimbatore, Madurai, Vishakapatnam, Cochin, Mysore and Tuticorin are are far ahead than any other North Indian city with the obvious exception of the National Capital Region of Delhi. This was not the case just a few decades back and North Indians particularly the Punjabis took pleasure in contemptuosly calling them "Illuds" derived from the negative term "Illey" used by them.
4. Their Sportspersons now compete easily and even better Punjabis and Sikhs. This was unimaginable just 15 years back.

So how did they pull themselves up to this stage. I daresay that either conciously or sub conciously they have followed the simple principles taught by our Gurus far better than we have, such as:

1. Practice humility.
2. Know when to let go.
3. Fight with QUIET tenacity for your beliefs and principles.

There is much that we can learn from them especially Tamils and Malayalis. :hmm::}{}{}::whisling:

 

[spnadmin]

harbhansj24 ji

These are wisdom pills,

1. Practice humility.
2. Know when to let go.
3. Fight with QUIET tenacity for your beliefs and principles.

And I agree having been reading some Tamil language web sites recently than there is a lot to be learned from their approach. A lot.
There is much that we can learn from them especially Tamils and Malayalis.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

narayanjot ji

i have been exposed to the cultureal melange that is india for last many years. I truly have picked up these pearls and diamonds even from many places.

but hey, pearls are not for public display, especially with unsavory characters

 

[spnadmin]

Sorry huck ji

I meant to address my comments to harbhansj24 ji -- My mistake. :down:

 

[Sinister]

Sinister ji

You have done a good job of pulling together some data. Last night I spent about an hour surfing and looking for information to contribute to your effort. There is some but it is not broken down by state. There is one excellent article - a controlled research study -- however only southern Indian states were included in the analysis.

This is an interesting pattern. I don't know if I am right. Southern and central Indian states appear to be more represented in government sponsored projects related to foeticide, maternal death, and maternal reproductive health, and the studies that are connected to them, than northern states. Why? Are there political, demographic, cultural reasons -- or am I seeing things in the rsearch that are not there?

N. Kaur Ji,

I dont know if such a discrepency or pattern exists , cause i didnt see any while i was looking up stats...in fact i felt that punjab seems to over-represented in the statistics category (but that is just a feeling...because i was searching particularly for punjab information). could you provide proof or further explanation?
did you see more federal government sponsored initiatives on female infanticide prevention in India's lower states? (its hard to go on gut feelings?)

When i was surfing for the info I only noticed one thing....there is NOT enough data...in fact i would like to criticize the Indian government and indians in general for not having enough stats on such important issues.

If such a discrepency does exist then i think HarbansJ has answered relatively well.
I think it would be mostly because of political reasons. OR Like harbansji said major academia (or as ruskies call it; 'intelligentsia') of India has moved to the south...and academia brings with it more activism. (i think)


Aside: female infanticide rates seem to be largely uneffected by education Levels...WEIRD!

Fetal sex determination in infants in Punjab, India: correlations and implications -- Booth et al. 309 (6964): 1259 -- BMJ

conclusion: Fetal sex determination was common, especially if the family already had daughters. Sex determination seems to be driven by a desire to have sons, with socioeconomic status and education having little effect. The lower prevalence of fetal sex determinations for girls is likely to be due to abortion of fetuses found to be female.

 

[Sinister]

Sinister ji,




Not a bit! One meaning of sinister if left as in left-handed which the nicest guy in the world was.

And what's in a name? I have been a very old lady from the day of my birth!

Chardi kala! :ice:

Mai (not really all THAT old)

Mai ji

Your RIGHT! Sinister in latin means left. Rectus means right.

Did you know that if you were to take every naturally occurring active enzyme (built from chiral amino acids) in your body and pass an incident ray of plane polarized light across them…the ray would pivot to the left! (Levorotatory)

FUN FACTS!

Who was the nicest man on the planet? If ya don’t mind my nosiness or curiosity?

keep it awesome
sinister

 

[kds1980]

Yes Narayanjot ji, I fully agree with your well expressed views.

Now if we can deviate from the original thread, then I would like to augment or supplement what you and Huck Finn ji have said.

The comments have been made with respect to South Indians. Having observed them closely and also north Indians particularly Punjabis and Sikhs, I can say that the South Indians as a whole have:

1. Moved ahead without losing their cultural identity. In fact their temples got better. Their Bharatnatyam and Carnatic music have got worldwide recognition and appreciation.
2. Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai are now recognized internationally as IT centers of excellence.
3. Just by simple observation, the above 3 cities along with Coimbatore, Madurai, Vishakapatnam, Cochin, Mysore and Tuticorin are are far ahead than any other North Indian city with the obvious exception of the National Capital Region of Delhi. This was not the case just a few decades back and North Indians particularly the Punjabis took pleasure in contemptuosly calling them "Illuds" derived from the negative term "Illey" used by them.
4. Their Sportspersons now compete easily and even better Punjabis and Sikhs. This was unimaginable just 15 years back.

So how did they pull themselves up to this stage. I daresay that either conciously or sub conciously they have followed the simple principles taught by our Gurus far better than we have, such as:

1. Practice humility.
2. Know when to let go.
3. Fight with QUIET tenacity for your beliefs and principles.

There is much that we can learn from them especially Tamils and Malayalis. :hmm::}{}{}::whisling:

Harbans ji

You are right we have to learn good things from south india,But we have to understand the cultural difference between Punjabi's and south Indians.South Indians always had the culture of education that's why we had and still have brilliant scientists from south while punjabi sikhs are known for fond of farming,truck driving ,auto part shops restaurents,army etc these things require more of skills than education.It was obvious when IT industry arrived in India their obvious choice was going to be south because of avalability of large number of educated youths which are going to work at cheap salary.

I also want to point out that Andhra pradesh has the highest number of suicide rate among farmers and chief archietect of IT industry of hyderabad
chandra babu naidu lost election so badly that his political career is in danger now.SM krishna of karnataka met the same fate and lost the power
so just because their is IT industry in south it does not meet it is prospering.

2)Another point I want to mention is that Southern parties from past 13 years have bargained a lot from centre showing numerical power.Key portofolio's of IT ministry and textile is with DMK and these days ministers openly claim that they are benefitting their state so growth in sectors where south Indian ministers are appointed is obvious

3)on the point of sports persons I am surprised because I have yet to see
south Indian sportsmen on international level.India is obsessed with cricket
and we hardly have any good p-layer from south now.Infact In 90s karnataka players dominated indian cricket team but not now.similarly there was not even a single south Indian in olympic medal winners of India