Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?

[lotus lion]

Hi Gyani Ji,

I appreciate that you are having multiple conversations, but my perception is that you are avoiding me.

Incase you missed my post (Edited for Clarity):

Hi Gyani Jarnail Singh,

I think it is fair to say that you do not believe in reincarnation.

"...due to the False beleif of reincarnation which is REJECTED by GURBANI"
"So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period."

If that is OK, I will take this as the starting point of our discussion.

If you feel that this is an unjust statement please say so and we will take the conversation in another direction.

Now I am afraid to say that you are completely mistaken. Perhaps even lost in a quagmire.

Reincarnation is a fundamental pillar of the Sikh Dharma. It is intertwined with Karma and is taught throughout the Guru Granth Sahib.

Please see one tuk of interest from many:

Sarab jī▫ā mėh eko ravai.
Among all beings, the One Lord is pervading.

Manmukẖ ahaʼnkārī fir jūnī bẖavai. ||5||
The eogtistical, self-willed manmukhs wander in reincarnation. ||5||

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 228

For Brothers and Sisters who are not versed in reading the Gurmukhi Script at the moment, Me included, i have included the transliteration.

Fir means again.

Juni means birth.

Therefore Fir Juni means Birth again. I.e. Reincarnation.

Would you agree with me that this statement means that the Guru Granth Sahib teaches about Reincarnation?

Sincerely Gyani Ji, I request that you answer the question directly so that we can actually have a real discussion. I say that as respectfully as i can as whenever i have asked directly, it is completely ignored.

Thanks,

Lotus

There is a lot of white noise around this issue that does not have anything to do with this thread.

I would appreciate getting to the crux of the matter and taking things from there.

My best regards,

Lotus

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant ji

It is not some people Even people like Dr.Sahib whose teeka is considered one of the best to understand Gurbani mentioned about reincarnation in His interpretations of shabad.

Kanwardeep Ji,

Guru fateh.

Of course reincarnation is mentioned in the Shabads. Our Gurus did acknowledge the existence of this belief in Gurbani. No one has denied that, and I agree with you that Dr. Sahib's teeka is the best so far because it is not done in a literal translation manner but he has interpreted it to the best of his knowledge.

Would you be kind enough to post the whole Shabad you have in mind, its english interpretation in your words alongwith Dr. Sahib's, so we can all discuss and learn from it?

Thanks


Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Satayban ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?

I am a bit puzzled by your question. My explanation is self explanatory. I urge you to read it again. And I did not understand why use hard words like HACKS to express yourself? I have no idea what you have in mind or what your agenda is. Please express yourself what you would really like to know.

Now, I have a question for you. Who wrote Shiva ji's story and when was it written? Is there any documented proof of it? I hope you do not ignore to respond to these questions as you have done in the past. As mentioned, a fair interaction can only occur if and when asked, one expects the response as you expected from me.

Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone.

Satayban ji,

Once again, it seems you have ignored to see my response before writing the above. I have no idea what you mean by "but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone". No one is accusing you of doing anything wrong, at least not me in my post. It is irrelevant whether you are alone or not and what kind of assurance does one need when one or more are wrong about the same thing? When we talk about interpreting the whole Shabad in a different language, parsing one or 2 words becomes meaningless and irrelevant in the discussion.

You have repeated many times in your posts that you find commonalities in what you think and what Sikhi is about, however under the same breath you, yourself admit, you have no idea what Gurbani says. So what ever commonalities you may try to seek can not happen without you knowing about Gurbani. So, in other words your claim is self contradictory based on nothing but superficiality and some preconceived ideas.

I can not enter a discourse about your scriptures, my interest was in your opinion of the translators and maybe improvements you could make.

I beg to differ with you on your above claim. Of course, you can enter into a discourse about SGGS and they are not MY scriptures by the way. They are for all humanity to savour. That is the reason the writings by people from other faiths like Hinduism and Islam, besides our Gurus' are in SGGS, our ONLY GURU. This would only occur and which is the true way to interact and find commonalities, if you studied Gurbani rather than throwing darts in the dark in a very superficial manner.

I would suggest that you study the interpretation of Jap ji by Amarpal Singh ji which is excellent. He is also interpreting Sukhmani Sahib which you should study as well. There are many great essays by Gyani Arshi ji, by Dr. I. J Singh, Dr. Dps Singh and many others in this forum. Just use the SEARCH icon and start your journey. After having done that then you may actually find commonalities in Sikhi with your own spiritual journey and many more questions to ask and to answer.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Satyaban]

Tejwant ji

I am most happy to see your response. I was having a rather slow day doing very little really and then:happy: there was your post. I filled a bowl of tortilla chips and ran to the store for a bottle of Mountain Dew and have my Newports at the ready, vices all. But let us get to the matters at hand and stay on topic.

Good God man can't a person agree with you. I said "Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone." I was agreeing with you about looking at one word taken out of context and not considering a poet's freedom, if a person writes poetically they are a poet to me. I threw in that subordinate clause so we don't get into parsing words.

I Said "So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?"

I said this because you were the one being critical of translations, translators, interpretations I don't know maybe the whole lot. I still expect that Sikh translators are wise and knowledgeable and don't rely on "Sikhism for Dummies" or translations by the Pope. Sarcasm. From the tone of your conversations I was ready to hear you say "I am the man for the job."

I don't think I am hard to understand. When I use a word I expect the reader to understand that I am applying definition number 1 not number 3. Before I would do that I would find a more fitting word. You say I don't respond to questions, in a way you are correct. I don't respond to questions that are not applicable to the topic, questions about statements I believe are clear enough and don't wish to be side tracked as we are now.

I mean for **** sake I made a statement about having some things in common with Sikhi and you remarked on that. So to make that crystal clear for you I believed those commonalities to be karma and reincarnation.

Now to get back on this topic you certainly appeared to me to take a position that you rejected reincarnation but don't bother to ask why because it is plain enough and I won't answer.

However when presented with a post by Kanwardeep ji you seem to be back pedalling. In previous posts you had a problem with people quoting the word "reincarnation". So don't ask me about that either just read your own post.

Now if you want to have a discussion about the topic or ideas that is fine. However, I am not going to entertain lengthy posts with multiply questions on the periphery of the topic. I don't enjoy it nor do I see anything useful to come of it so there is no point.

So my question to you is how do you come down the topic of reincarnation so we all know?

Peace
Satyaban

P.S. I started this post I don't know around 1pm and have been interrupted many times and lost text several times and it is now 2:30am. I am tired and not going to reread this post. Spell check and that's it.

 

[kaur-1]

Kanwardeep Ji,

Guru fateh.

Of course reincarnation is mentioned in the Shabads. Our Gurus did acknowledge the existence of this belief in Gurbani. No one has denied that, and I agree with you that Dr. Sahib's teeka is the best so far because it is not done in a literal translation manner but he has interpreted it to the best of his knowledge.

Would you be kind enough to post the whole Shabad you have in mind, its english interpretation in your words alongwith Dr. Sahib's, so we can all discuss and learn from it?

Thanks


Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh ji, are you saying that you do accept reincarnation? FYI some are denying this fact.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Singh ji, are you saying that you do accept reincarnation? FYI some are denying this fact.

Kaur-1 ji,

Guru Fateh.

It seems you have not read my posts about my view regarding reincarnation and 84 lakh joons in this thread. I urge you to do that.

Reincarnation is a belief and as mentioned in my posts in this very thread, that beliefs can change anytime and also mentioned that Sikhi is not considered by me as a belief system.

There is a vast difference between acknowledgment and acceptance and our Gurus acknowledged the existence of this belief in Hinduism. They also gave us the tools through Gurbani how to get rid of this senseless belief in the pragmatic life of a Sikh.


Tejwant Singh

 

[Satyaban]

Tejwant ji

Let me rephrase the question. Do you or do you not accept reincarnation as a factor in our existence?

Peace
Satyaban

 

[harbansj24]

Satyaban ji,

You would have noticed that that there is wide variation of opinion on this aspect. This is because reincarnation is only incidental or tangential to our existence as per Sikh philosophy.

Our focus is only the present birth and the aim is very clear. That is to strive to attain submergence in HIM.

We do not have to know, bother or worry about our past Karams or Births because we will not be able to know or understand it. It is futile to fret about the perceived rewards or punishments in some future Janams or paying for the past Karams in the present Janam.

Submergence in HIM can be attained by making the soul blemish less. And the natural aim of the soul is to unite with the Creator. If it is not able attain it in the present vehicle and it has to continue its journey in next vehicle, then so be it!

Guru Nanak ji's philosophy is aimed to rid mankind of unnecessary "bharams" and to make the path to him easier and simpler.

We should not regress by getting caught in complicated webs which are impossible to untangle.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Hi Gyani Ji,

I appreciate that you are having multiple conversations, but my perception is that you are avoiding me.

Incase you missed my post (Edited for Clarity):



There is a lot of white noise around this issue that does not have anything to do with this thread.

I would appreciate getting to the crux of the matter and taking things from there.

My best regards,

Lotus

Lotus Lion ji..
I will get back to you...am in the process of answering you on what i beleive sggs says.. please be patient..i know you are..
Warm regards

 

[spnadmin]

Satyaban ji,

You would have noticed that that there is wide variation of opinion on this aspect. This is because reincarnation is only incidental or tangential to our existence as per Sikh philosophy.

Our focus is only the present birth and the aim is very clear. That is to strive to attain submergence in HIM.

We do not have to know, bother or worry about our past Karams or Births because we will not be able to know or understand it. It is futile to fret about the perceived rewards or punishments in some future Janams or paying for the past Karams in the present Janam.

Submergence in HIM can be attained by making the soul blemish less. And the natural aim of the soul is to unite with the Creator. If it is not able attain it in the present vehicle and it has to continue its journey in next vehicle, then so be it!

Guru Nanak ji's philosophy is aimed to rid mankind of unnecessary "bharams" and to make the path to him easier and simpler.

We should not regress by getting caught in complicated webs which are impossible to untangle.

harbhansj ji

Once the famous physicist and astronomer Carl Sagan challenged the Dalai Lama during a television program, saying: if science were to disprove reincarnation, what would Tibetan Buddhism do. And the Dalai Lama responded: If science disproved reincarnation, then Tibetan Buddhism would have to get rid of the idea of reincarnation. But to disprove reincarnation would be mighty hard to do. He is saying, how do you prove it, how do you disprove it? Guru Nanak has said, We don't know.

Often I have found myself groping for words to express my own views clearly on the topic of this thread. You have done it for me. There is no way to "prove" or "disprove." And the path that Guru Nanak, and all Nanaks took, was to move the discussion to the "next level" so to speak and to seek "the precious jewel."

I appreciate your words because they put things into perspective and relieve both doubt and guilt.

 

[manbir]

I am worried about my present. I do not know my previous birth and have no chance to know my next birth. Humans would have known of their past and future if The Almighty wanted to give this capacity to the human beings. But we know that He by His supreme Will decided not to bestow the Humans this sense.

My Guru tells me that Waheguru Ji has given me this human form and this is a chance for me to meet my Creator.
Guru tells me not to miss this chance. My Guru has tried His level best giving so many examples and in a language that I 'may' understand telling me to make use of this human form to meet my Creator.

He tells me this is the only chance. My Guru tells me to lift myself spiritually to attain the the strength to merge with that being who created me.

The Creator has given this ability to the Humans. But we need to follow our Guru.

I am not worried about Reincarnation.

 

[harbansj24]

Narayanjot ji,

Neither I am a profound thinker nor a very articulate person. And I will never tire of saying that the works of Bhai Vir Singh ji have put the words in my mouth. His works are a huge hidden treasure waiting to be explored and getting enriched.

They are sure to change the lives of all who read them. I just started reading them a couple of years back and they have made a huge, huge difference to me.

They can lift one from depths of despair to heights of Chardi Kalan!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the lengthy post which I enjoy but sadly you have shown disliking for it. I do appreciate you making efforts though. Length of a post is not important. It is in the content.

FYI, SGGS is 1429 pages.

Your initial response to the post was a one liner which gave me the impression that you were dedicating your time in studying about Sikhi in order to find true commonalities. But today, to my pleasant surprise, it has more content in it which I am glad to interact with.

You write:

Good God man can't a person agree with you. I said "Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone." I was agreeing with you about looking at one word taken out of context and not considering a poet's freedom, if a person writes poetically they are a poet to me. I threw in that subordinate clause so we don't get into parsing words.

But your question about one word "reincarnation" was about parsing the whole literal translation with just this word rather than understanding the whole Shabad which you admittedly said you do not know as you have never studied Gurbani.

I Said "So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?"

I said this because you were the one being critical of translations, translators, interpretations I don't know maybe the whole lot. I still expect that Sikh translators are wise and knowledgeable and don't rely on "Sikhism for Dummies" or translations by the Pope. Sarcasm.

Satayban ji, Once you start studying Gurbani then you will be able to understand my explanation. Once again, you are throwing darts in the air in a superficial manner. So, please start doing your homework as I said before, Gurbani is for all humanity to savour. I have no idea why you feel reluctant to trying to study. One has to get to the ground to play ball, not sitting on the fence. Knowledge is everyone's friend.

From the tone of your conversations I was ready to hear you say "I am the man for the job."

I am sorry to disappoint you. It seems you claim to know more about others than about yourself. I did give the names of the people who have interpreted Gurbani in this very forum. Why don't you give it a shot? And one more piece of advice, please leave you Newport cigarettes somewhere else, wash your hands when you start studying Gurbani. One can start the inner cleansing by cleaning the outer first.

I don't think I am hard to understand. When I use a word I expect the reader to understand that I am applying definition number 1 not number 3. Before I would do that I would find a more fitting word.

Pardon my ignorance, as in the past when I have not understood what you meant,I asked you questions, which sadly you refused to answer. Your expectation from my side may be much greater than my own capacity, so that is the reason I ask questions. Otherwise there is no need for any questioning.

You say I don't respond to questions, in a way you are correct. I don't respond to questions that are not applicable to the topic, questions about statements I believe are clear enough and don't wish to be side tracked as we are now.

You above claim is interesting to say the least which one can also take it as a cop out because when you, yourself ask questions, you expect them to be responded and interaction is a 2 way street, just in case you were not aware of. Having said that, you have every right not to respond as you have done in the past. It says a lot about the person himself who only wants his questions answered. So, if you do not know the answers to my questions regarding your own faith, you can be honest enough to say you do not know. But once again, if you have any questions regarding Sikhi, please do not hesitate to ask. I will do my best to respond and if I am not able to, I will seek other members' help to do the same.

I mean for **** sake I made a statement about having some things in common with Sikhi and you remarked on that. So to make that crystal clear for you I believed those commonalities to be karma and reincarnation.

You have made the statements about commonalities in many other threads besides this one which is OK. That is the reason you said you joined this forum. However, as mentioned before, without studying about Sikhi way of life, then all becomes superficially mundane laced with preconceived notions, which in result become meaningless and irrelevant.

Now to get back on this topic you certainly appeared to me to take a position that you rejected reincarnation but don't bother to ask why because it is plain enough and I won't answer.

You are right in your above statement. I have repeatedly said that based on Gurbani. And I have no idea why you expect me to ask you about something that I claim based on Gurbani. You can ask me anything regarding Sikhi, as mentioned before.

However when presented with a post by Kanwardeep ji you seem to be back pedalling. In previous posts you had a problem with people quoting the word "reincarnation". So don't ask me about that either just read your own post

Your above statement seems quite misleading. Please specify where I have back pedalled and about what? I do not think you have read all my posts. I hope you respond to this accusation rather than avoiding it as you did in the past.

Now if you want to have a discussion about the topic or ideas that is fine. However, I am not going to entertain lengthy posts with multiply questions on the periphery of the topic. I don't enjoy it nor do I see anything useful to come of it so there is no point.

I am always ready for good interaction but as mentioned before, you have to be ready to respond when asked. so, the ball is in your court and it has been there for quite sometime. And did I forget to say that I am enjoying this lengthy post of yours?! Please keep it up.

So my question to you is how do you come down the topic of reincarnation so we all know?

I thought you knew the answer. Please read your own statement, once again:
"Now to get back on this topic you certainly appeared to me to take a position that you rejected reincarnation but don't bother to ask why because it is plain enough and I won't answer".

My response:<<You are right in your above statement. I have repeatedly said that based on Gurbani. You can ask me anything as mentioned before.>>


Any other questions? Please feel free to ask.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

For what these thoughts are worth. The word "reincarnation" never appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. "Reincarnation" which means taking the form of flesh again is the usual translator's analogy for what is stated in Guruji as "coming and going" and "life and death, cycles of coming and going, cycles of life and death. These terms can be taken at face value to mean the notion of having the 84 lakh joon (itself an ancient concept from pre Vedic times). Or these terms can be understood themselves as analogies, even metaphors, for a different kind of rebirth.

Or, Guru Nanak being highly literate and profound in his poetic talents may have indeed considered the power of metaphor to carry more than one level of meaning- at the same time within one phrase. More than one way for re-birthing of self, and a new way of thinking replacing the older way of considering the meaning of the metaphor.

Just a weak theory. Forgive me.

 

[Satyaban]

Namaste

I thank everyone for their posts because they have enabled me to have some understanding of Sikh thought on this topic. I think that as long as I keep my worship and yoga, behaving in thought and deed as harmlessly as I can all else will fall into place. It is all I can do.

I was not born with a heightened God consciousness or into a spiritually advanced situation and believe my spiritual journey and evolution will not be a short one. I don't think I have caused anyone's death but I have indeed caused great harm to others and myself. I believe my best hope for liberation in this life is to die with Lord Shiva's name or "Om Namah Shivaya" on my lips or the long shot of being part of some miraculous event of Biblical proportions.OMG After reading that you may think I find rebirth as a relief valve or something but no I consider it a loving God's grace. Reincarnation does not guide my life which would lead to acts that appear beneficial to others but done really for selfish reasons and expectations attached to them as opposed to being selfless as our service should be.

For me to believe moksha is possible for me when this body gives up I must also believe that my past incarnation or two must have been damned exceptional.

So anyway I am merely stating my view and understanding on this topic. I am neither so rude or so ignorant to entertain the thought of influencing anyone.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Admin]

Dear all, there is simply no question of one member influencing another, its all about learning and evolving...

Relax and enjoy!! :welcome:

 

[lotus lion]

Hi Gyani Ji,

Np at all, please get back as soon as you can.

Thanks,

Lotus

Lotus Lion ji..
I will get back to you...am in the process of answering you on what i beleive sggs says.. please be patient..i know you are..
Warm regards

 

[onspjo]

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

MSS ji(JAPJISAHIB04),
I agree with you. It is because of desires that we come and go. The use of Karmi aawe kapra nadri mokh dwar tells that it is because of karma that you come/wear a kapra(body,joon,human life) and only with the grace of God, will you see the door of moksha. It is our conscious(chitr) and subconscious(gupt) that keep the records and then we are given whatever joon to clear the accounts(fulfill desires).

GJSji, I do agree that we can not tell how many joons are there as only He knows the numbers. But I do not believe that you get human life once or you do not go in any other joon.

In Sukhmani Sahib, it is written that ANIK JON JANAMA MAR JAAM, NAAM JAPAT PAWEH BISRAAM. It is clearly stated that you go thru many joons.

WHY is HUMAN LIFE PRECIOUS? IT is after many joons(See above) that you get a human life. Why is it DURLABH and why is in human life your turn(chance) to meet gobind?

Because it is only in human form that you can learn what lobh, moh, ahankar, kaam, krodh, ego is and it is only in human form that you can learn to rid yourself of these and JAP NAAM. Only a human has the capacity(physical ang) of realizing the dasam dwar, hearing the anhad nad and more(you know what I am getting at). THAT is one of the reasons one should not mess with the body parts(piercing, cutting hair etc.) as most parts of the body play some part and are instrumental in the whole process of realization. In any other joon, you can not do that. That is why human form is your chance to be one with GOd.

That is my understanding and I truly believe it from the bani only.
Please forgive as I am a beginner only. Bhul chuk maaf karni and please correct me too if my understanding is wrong.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Japjisahib04 is a SARDAR JI.:redturban:

 

[onspjo]

MSS is for (Mohinder Singh Sahni) not MISS ). That is how he signed in his post.