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Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?

japjisahib04

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and I dont think being Born Blind..crippled..female...poor...starving..sick..etc etc is God's PUNISHMENT....WHY all these things happen..ONLY HE KNOWS..read the Asa dee vaar concluding shabads about the Chulleh rehan charreh...
Karma and punishment, original sin etc etc are all laien concepts to GURMUTT. The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.
Giani Ji, I do agree with you being born blind, crippled (I will not add female) is not God's punishment. If that was punishment, then gurbani wouldn't have guided us to share and help. The beauty is though people born blind, crippled still they live in harmony. Is this bothering you to give direct answer on reincarnation. Since journey ends for all, logically it is not possible that both paapi like me and puni meets the same ends and if the end for both same, then why gurbani is emphassing on hukam rajaaiye chalna.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
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Jul 10, 2006
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and I dont think being Born Blind..crippled..female...poor...starving..sick..etc etc is God's PUNISHMENT....WHY all these things happen..ONLY HE KNOWS..read the Asa dee vaar concluding shabads about the Chulleh rehan charreh...
Karma and punishment, original sin etc etc are all laien concepts to GURMUTT. The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.
Giani ji I think you are missing the point.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Sahni Ji, Gurfateh,
Imho YES.
1. There is no concept of Paap and Punn in Gurbani..BOTH are the Creator Himself.
Guru ji ha NEVER condemned nayone for being a Paapi...its always the "action" that is condemned and that action CAN be changed in this life...as did Sajjan Thuggh, Kauda Raksh and many others who met Guru Nanak ji..
2. So they are not belonging to different sides and go different ways.
3. Is it just "humility and magnanimity" on Guru Arjun Jis part when he says..dosh na kahoon devohn and tera bhanna metha laggeh..- thet Guru arjun nJi just doesnt "KNOW" who the papi is who is torturing and killing him..or the "paapi chnadu/Jehangir" are existing ONLY in OUR mind but not in Guru Arjun ji becasue in fcat there is NO Paapi and no Punni..BOTH are the Play of the Creator..Guur Ji is Hukm Razaii Challnna -following the Hukm set for HIM..and Jehangir is also following his hukm in his own manmukh way..
4. IMHO take the act of WATER returnign to the Ocean..one of the most used metaphors to describe our merger back into the SAT...doesnt "bad/paapi? water also go back into the Ocean just as readily and without HINDRANCE as Rain Water ? The OCEAN never rejects any drop..be it highly polluted sewage...or pure SNOW FLAKES falling upon its surface..ALL find solace on its surface and mingle in. IMHO the Creator is like the Ocean..He accepts ALL...
5. There is no question of me avoiding the reincarnation..i find it a superflous rejected theory becasue Gurbani tells us..nay INSTRUCTS us how to become GURMUKHS..SNOW FLAKES...and fall from the skies onto the Ocean Surface..rather than flow into it via sewage canal... Reincarnation like Karma, good and bad, paap and punn, rewards and punishment, hell and heaven are ALL REJECTED THEORIES. Gurbani MENTIONS them to reflect what WAS...and then goes on to GIVE us a TOTALLY NEW DIRECTION, NEW CONCEPT - GURMUKH that becomes JEEWAN MUKT without Fera but through LOVE of His Hukm.
 

japjisahib04

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Sahni Ji, Gurfateh,
Imho YES.
3. Is it just "humility and magnanimity" on Guru Arjun Jis part when he says..dosh na kahoon devohn and tera bhanna metha laggeh..- thet Guru arjun nJi just doesnt "KNOW" who the papi is who is torturing and killing him..or the "paapi chnadu/Jehangir" are existing ONLY in OUR mind but not in Guru Arjun ji becasue in fcat there is NO Paapi and no Punni..BOTH are the Play of the Creator..Guur Ji is Hukm Razaii Challnna -following the Hukm set for HIM..and Jehangir is also following his hukm in his own manmukh way..
Giani Ji
In stanza 17 Guru Nanak quotes that there are millions of articles and holy granth but despite availability of all these wisdom, he is astonished to observe the devils and nobles play of nature on this earth. He does not enter into controversy regarding the basis of all this. He simply says, “jo iqsu BwvY nwnkw sweI gl cMgI ] - whatever pleases You my beloved, is best.” - Guru Granth ang.726.13 (But when it came for argument at the extreme, Guru Nanak left enough authority to the seeker to cry for appeal and make commentary on the pathetic condition by saying “Eti Maar peiyee karlane te ki dard na aayaa -There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn’t You feel compassion, O Master?” What is this then Giani Ji. Can you elborate.
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait
 
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kds1980

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Kanwardeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am not here to judge anyone what they think or not about reincarnation or if they have atheistic interpretation of SGGS. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows that. No one else can find that out no matter how much one tries. That is why Sikhi is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own spiritual torch.

So,let me ask you this question in another way then. What are your thoughts as a Sikh about God and Soul?

Please share with us.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh
My views about God and soul are somewhat similar to what is written on sikhiwiki
God - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
The fundamental belief of Sikhism, too, is that God exists, not merely as an idea or concept, but as a Real Being, indescribable yet not unknowable

soul
Soul - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
The soul according to Sikhism is an entity in our body because of which the body can sustain life. On the departure of this entity from the body, the body becomes lifeless - No amount of manipulations to the body can make the person make any physical actions. The soul is the ‘driver’ in the body. It is the ‘roohu’ or spirit, the presence of which makes the physical body alive.
 

kds1980

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Guru Piayrio jios,
Gurfateh.

I DONT allow any type of "colouring" to stop me from reading or visiting any site or book or video or movie. Thus I have never refused any Radha Soami literature, any bible literature from visiting "converters"..I ahve Korans presented to me by the Ahmadiyas, I go to Panthic weekly/waheguru network related sites ( to many they must be Solid Panthic Sites and equal perhaps to Gurbani or at least sacred..!!)..I hold the View that NO ONE is all wrong..or all right..each site, each book has something of value..none is absolutley worthless. So Yes Sikh Marg dot com is on my favourite bookmark folder as are those other sites like Tapoban, Damdmai Taksaal, Rara sahib, Nanaksari sites...and i visit and read them all..and come to my own conclusions. That is SIKHI is all about - Gurmatt doesnt restrict one.
The Very first person that i came across with "atheist" views was the Preetlari Author Gurbaksh Singh...who was pushing the idea that Guru Gobind Singh ji was just a Man..and all his battles etc were won due to brillance of miliraty thinking etc etc..and in those days Malayan SIKHS got even the British Govt in Malaya to BAN the Preetlari Magazine as it was supposedly "communist-atheist" anti sikh..even though it was the only Punjabi Magazine of good standard...the thinking was ..we prefer to NOT read anything..IF that is what results form banning preetlari. My dad preferred ANSWERING the Preetlari lekhs through Parchaar..he never beleived in hiding his head in the sand..neither do i.
SIKHS also work on the premise that IF..you tell a lie..or repeat a lie..many times .....people will beleive it as Truth..that is what is happening not only with Sikh Marg..bUT also with people like ME...I have had the Label "Kala afghanist" applied to me..simply becasue I say i did read his books and he is NOT totally WRONG...to many he is NOT TO BE even MENTIONED..much less read !! what height of ignorance. Most of thsoe who so happily apply such labels on others have not bothered to read KA's books...many say the same things about Rozana Spokesman..But keep quiet about the other daily that habitually carries news about Babas, Pir Jormelas, samadh akhand paaths, havans, namdhree guur parvachans, etc etc which are all ANTI-SIKH NEWS on a Daily basis...I dont give two hoots to such biasness.

MY FIRM BELIEF..is..we are Born HUMANS..we have the Unique GIFT of SGGS, GURBANI..which came through the TEN Nanak jamas over a period of 250 Yeras, we have Hundreds of thousands of Martyrs who SHOWED us the Right Way with their Lives. We have been GIFTED a PIO DADDEH DA KHAZANAH..to "OPEN AND SEE"...use the Gurbani Tools to IMPLEMENT CHANGES in our daily lives...and Become GURMUKHS.
Gurbani GUARANTEES that a GURMUKH will NOT REINCARNATE...a GURMUKH WILL NOT BE IN KARMA..the GURMUKH WILL Have his place in SACHEE DARGAH. AND to become a GURMUKH is not easy..it takes every second of our short human life...so only FOOLS will waste time arguing about...wind blowing and leaves fluttering...because at the Bottom Line..ONLY HE KNOWS all the answers we seek..why we waste time in attempting to count the stars..when we know very well that ONLY HE KNOWS ?? MY aim is i am sitting for the EXAM of MY LIFE..and i just cannot afford to keep wondering ..what IF..what IF..i have only limited time to "study"..and i must make sure i pass with flying colours..so that i can come out LAUGHING like Kabir Ji said....and occupy my Sacha Pirr in the Sachi Dargah. PERIOD.:cool::cool::cool:
Gyani ji

I am not saying that reading sikhmarg is bad.At one time i too used to visit it
and read articles from it .But beleiving in their Atheistic type of views and interpretations are hard to beleive for me.Many questions on this thread have been raised about reincarnation and I am sorry to say hardly anyone has been properly answered
 

Tejwant Singh

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That is true Giani Ji, Gurbani guarantees that a Gurmukh will not reincarnate, it is the golden opportunity to avail but where is the place for a papi like me. Guru Nanak has given so many metaphors. Will I reincarnate and be given second chance with more punishment in order to settle my dues, if I am little week. What will happen to this hukam, 'kar kar karna likh lai jao aapai beej aapai hi khao nanak hukmi avai jao' or will lekha jokha of my bad karma will be washed and will be given immunity after end of my journey? Will you simply Laugh like Kabir Ji or will help me to join you. Why Gurbani uses Grace through out SGGS?

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait
Mohinder ji ,

Guru Fateh.

Our Karams are about our human life, what deeds do we perform here? What seeds do we sow here? Karams have nothing to do with so called previous lives in Sikhi because no one knows about them as it is just a belief based on subjective truth not on objective reality that Sikhi is based on.

That is why for a Gurmukh, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the mindset by Shabad Vichaar gets rid of this belief.

Guru Nanak Dev ji explains how to have the right kind of mindset about this very well in Jap ji,"Sunyei manhiei, munn keetah bhaoh, antter gatt, tirath mal navoah."

In other words,by listening to Gurbani- not just hearing it-, one develops awareness, realisation, understanding and acceptance of Gurus' teachings which in result springboard us with motivation so that we can put these teachings into practice in our everyday lives. This is what Gurbani says is the only pilgrimage for a Sikh, which means that a Sikh becomes a true pilgrim 24-7 when he/ she has sowed the seeds of goodness within.

Regarding your statement about "Gurbani guarantees that a Gurmukh will not reincarnate, it is the golden opportunity to avail but where is the place for a papi like me," Mohinder ji, Gurbani says we are all paapis, no exception. That is why we should follow what Guru Nanak Dev ji said above.

Paapi in Sikhi is like a horse rider. If a horse rider claims that he/she has never fallen off the horse then that person has never ridden a horse.

Gurbani teaches us that it is ok to fall, and it does not matter how often we fall, it is how fast we get up, dust off and carry onto the Sikhi marg. Once we start doing that then we create the Gurmat mind set which does not allow us to blame our falls on some karams in some past lives which no one has any idea about.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

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Still does not explain your statement "<<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>>"

What happens to a manmukh if there is no reincarnation - Sikhee concept of reincarnation/transmigration that is ?


Kaur-1 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Only Ik Ong Kaar knows who is a Gurmukh and who is a Manmukh. No one else can find that out no matter how much he or she tries to play IK Ong Kaar. So, let us leave this to The Source and follow Gurbani which says that anyone who follows Sikhi Marg is able to develop the mindset which gets rid of the beliefs of reincarnation or 84 Lakh joons.

In my opinion, these 2 are just fancy words for recycling. We all get recycled in some manner or the other. It is like a supermarket bagger asking you which one would you prefer for your groceries, paper or plastic?:)

Tejwant Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

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For those who do not believe in reincarnation (ie GurSikhee concept of reincarnation) will also have to reject the concept of karma.

If there is only one life, then karma will not apply. Take for example a person born in poverty or crime, drugs, or handicapped etc. Those who believe in one life only are implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice and therefore unjust and unfair.

Its basically throwing the buck back to God and not us.

This will not apply : ਜੇਵੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੇ ਫਲਤੇ ॥: Jevehe karma kamaavadaa tevehe phalate: One obtains fruits according to the deeds which he does (sggs 317)

Whats the point when we are going back to the SAT anyways!! There is only one life - we came from the SAT and we will go back to the SAT so whats the point?


Kaur-1 ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

Too bad you starving and in pain dying child, thats the hand you were dealt by an unjust God playing the game of roll the dice. Its too bad that you have only one life
.

The God you mentioned above is how the Semitic people think of their concept of God who is vengeful, creates evil- hence evil, jealous and kills babies.

Following are just a few examples which I am sure you must be aware of:

-Isaiah 13:15-18, If God can find you, he will thrust you through, smash your children to pieces before your eyes,

Jeremiah 19:7-9
God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.

Hosea 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."


GOD created perfect EVIL Ezekiel 28:15

God said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

"I am the LORD your God, ...... And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:13,29)


One can go on and on.

The above has nothing to do with the concept of Ik Ong Kaar in Sikhi who is NIRBHAU and NIRVAIR.

So, the picture you showed has everything to do with actions of fiendish cruel people who make children suffer and starve while lining their own pockets with the aid they get from the outside world when famines or natural disasters are stuck.
Do you remember Katrina in New Orleans when Bush had no idea what was happening there while he was vacationing in Crawford, Texas, at his cozy ranch?

It has nothing to do with some unjust god the way you claimed.

Tejwant Singh
 

spnadmin

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Tejwant ji

Though I do not think that Kaur-1 ji intended Ik Oankaar to be cast in the semitic way, I cannot help but repeat your words as follows:

So, the picture you showed has everything to do with actions of fiendish cruel people who make children suffer and starve while lining their own pockets with the aid they get from the outside world when famines or natural disasters are stuck.

A buzzard is waiting for a child to die of starvation and weakness - imagine the terror of the child -- because of the deeds, the kamas, of Manmukhs NOW. Deeds in a previous joon are of no relevance. All who put into action the political tactics that led to this, and all who failed to do something, anything, to stop it (me, I have done nothing) have turned their/my faces from the Guru. The fact of this evil is my punishment NOW. More importantly, having another chance in another lifetime to change my ways,purify my spiritual identity, and obtain mukhtee, does not achieve justice for that child NOW.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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EXACTLY Narayanjot Ki..YOU seem to be even better than me at putting across what i am trying to say...Beautiful....that is exactly what Gurbani is all about...NOW...not he "past..not the future....NOW. NOW NOW..everything happens NOW !!.

ALL this stuff about what will happen FUTURE !!!..a baba used to tell this ridiculous story..a Sadhu who had spent a life time in Meditation...was sitting in meditation one day..wehn a COW ran past him after escaping the Butcher..who wasnt far behind...the butcher came to the sadhu and asked him..have you seen my cow..and the sadhu kept quiet..BUT POINTED in the direction the cow took. Neeldess to say the Cow was caught..and slaughtered...BUT thats not the end of the story...IN the FUTURE...the sadhu had to become a COW..and was Slaughtered...becasue in hsi previous life..he pointed her out to the butcher !!! Can anything be MORE RIDICULOUS..yet people lap up such tall tales with vigour...Karma..jaisah beejh taisah lunneh..sow and reap blah blah.
ALL the SOWING is on this EARTH..and all the REAPING is also Here. People who sow COTTON will get COTTON and NOT Papyas !! HERE and NOW. Gurbani tells us how to GET PAPAYAS..if we wnat papyas...or Cotton if we need cotton..NOTHING is a Vague imaginary "happening in the future..next life blah blah..THAT is the stories Snake Oil merchants tell you..NOT the GURUS..they came to Tell us the TRUTH.:welcome:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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The 84 lakh joon brick rests on the reincarnation brick which rests on the Karam brick..a House of Cards.
For decades no body dared to even write a single sentence against eh Imaginary 84 lakh joon figure..the various granths the various religious sects had different figures and all...then it became clear that GURU NANAK JI rejects this imaginary figure because the Creation is limitless...not possible to LIMIT HIM into a FINITE number..which the 84 lakh joon actually is...
Previously the Creator was also being LIMITED to Finite numbers..Heavens, Planets, Pataals and earths etc..GURU NANAK JI Rejected this too and revealed the UNLIMITED Vastness of the Craetor...so the pataals and all stood rejected as false
Then the Creator was LIMITED to being GOOD ...the PUNNI..the REWARDER...whiel the BAD GUY was the so callaed Dharam Raaj..the SAITAN..shaitan...etc etc..GURU NANAK JI REJECTED this LIMITATION of the CREATOR..declaring he is LIMITLESS..and cannot be CONFINED to "GOOOD" only while the BAD is out of His...Gurbani says HE is ALL GOOD and BAD. He is Paapi and He is Punnee..
NOTHING HELPS..everything depends on HIS GRACE...a so called Paapi cna be saved..a so callaed Mahaprash Sri 1000000008 can be REJECTED..IF HE so wishes..THERE is NO APPEAL..NO COURT..NO RECOURSE..HE Makes the Final Call. HIS GRACE is uppermount..surmounts ALL.
Previously so called "scholars..Brahmas..Vishnus..Shivas..Brahmcharis..Rishis..Munis TRIED to SECOND GUESS HIM..HIS ACTIONS...limited Him..He cna ONLY do this..HE CANT possibly DO THAT..How can a Papee be saved..How could a Punnee be rejected...They tried to EXPLAIN :His ACTIONS...His BEHAVIOUR...tried to REASON and LOGIC...all those is REJECTED BY GURBANI...HIS NAME is TRUTH and He is the CREATOR..the SAT..the OCEAN that ACCEPTS ALL...snow flakes..sewage..hydrochloric acid..sweet rain..pure ice bergs from Greenland..the dirties polluted water from the cities of New York etc...NO DISCIMINATION.
Same types still continue to make JUDGEMENT CALLS..they show us Chernobyl..and ASK>>WHY? WHAT did those people do ??..What did the German Jews do to deserve Hitler ? What did the Russins do to deserve Stalin..what did the world do to deserve Jenghiz Khan..Hannibal..what did the PUNJABIS DO TO DESERVE GURU NANAK JYOT ??
WHO KNOWS ?? WHY we try and Play GOD ?? ask..wonder..frustrated..because there are NO ANSWERS...Guur nnak ji Didnt say WHY He came to PUNJAB...why not ISRAEL..why NOT CHINA...why not ARFICA..or INUIT ?? Men CREATED their own tall tale and foisted it on to Guur Gobind Singh Ji..putting words into His Mouth..as to why??when ??what For?.. etc etc when in fact HE said NO SUCH THING !!! Its all CONJECTURE fairy tales...and men are proud that the Guur is admitting to his "previous life"..becasue thats what they have been beleiving in stuff all along...when we ask Then WHY GURU NANAK to Guru Teg babhdur Ji didnt explain nay such PREVIOUS LIVES..penances..karams etc etc..whY ?? and why NOT ?? again the same FRUSTRATION...because ONLY HE KNOWS..and its HIS DOMAIN..we are beating our heads...against the WALL...
The HOUSE OF CARDS..built on FINITE JOONS..reincarnations based on DEEDS..imagined and not true becasue NO BODY has any evidence of what constitutes what..Karma etc falls FLAT.
GURU NANAK JI came in Human Form, spoke Human Language, Wrote Human Language, sang human language, Gurbani is in Human Language...and its for HUMANS to USE it and Become GURMUKHS....and HOPE that HIS GRACE is forthcoming...OTHERWISE..its HIS WISH.....He is the CREATOR..the final authority...on why chernobyl..and why nagasaki..and why americans are so rich...and saudis have got so much oil..while the sudanese wait for Buzzards to eat them alive...whoever can ANSWER all these questiosn is the CREATOR..Congrats !!! But I doubt He reads SPN...( he he he maybe HE DOES..!!!):happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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and another point worth noting...WHY do we have this Tall tales spread by the Nanaksari and other sampardaiyas that BABA NANAK IS COMING AGAIN....The Nanaksarees spread this falsehood that Guru nanak ji has already completed 10 jaams from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh.and He is Now in the Nanaksaree Babas..Nand Singh, Ishar Singh et al...SECRETLY..and from Number 85 of these Babas Guru nanak will again become MANIFEST OPENLY.
Others often claim they are GURU NANAK..Guru Gobind Singh..or any other Guru they fancy or imagine themelves to be...

BOTH these scenarios are DIRECTLY due to the False beleif of reincarnation which is REJECTED by GURBANI.:yes::yes::yes: The Blind leading the Blind..towards OBLIVION...
 
Gyani ji.
I remember when the last thread was closed, my last mail was that you, by raising the finger on authenticity of Dasam Granth, also raises the authenticity of Hemkund Sahab and Hazoor Sahab. After that , the thread was closed.
In continuation of that thread in a new face now you have raised once again your finger on Guru Amar das ji, Not only 3rd guru but also again on Guru Gobind singh ji because both of them have proved the re-incarnation. For your kind information the incarnation theory is not new. See----
Far too often we blindly believe in what we have been taught without using our own faculties to examine the world around us and to come to our own conclusions. The concept of reincarnation and of Karma has existed since the dawn of time and it forms the foundation of a number of the great religions of the East: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and Zoroastrianism. Japanese esoteric Dadaism, Tibetan traditions and other disciplines of South-East Asia also make use of these ideas. In ancient Greece, the main scientific and philosophical schools accepted the principal of past lives, notably the Pythagoreans, Aristotelians and the Platonists. Ancient jewish groups such as the Hessians, the Pharsians and the Caraites include the notion of past lives in their teachings and these branches of jewish faith form the basis of modern day Christianity. The Gnostics, the Kabbalistes, Amerindians, pre-columbine cultures, Polynesian Shamans, Celtic Druids and the wise men of African, Peruvian, Columbian and Brazilian cultures also share this faith as do many modern schools of thought such as the Theosophies and the Anthroposohes.


The use of past life regression techniques are for many years now as these are fantastically efficient techniques and are capable of plunging any person deep into the subconscious to do a little 'spring-cleaning'! Unfortunately in the West science has rejected spirituality as an irrational dream even though in antiquity the Greek, Egyptian, Mayan and Incan societies spent a great deal of time researching the nodes of the past and therapeutic techniques developed to dissolve these nodes became a part of everyday life. However it must be said that through the work of quantum physics a certain notion of reincarnation has been re-introduced over the past few years. Today many experiments have sought to prove re-incarnation and these experiments have been greatly supported by the reports of spontaneous past life regressions which have occurred to people in various states of altered consciousness. These regressions occur whether or not the individual previously 'believed' in past lives. In a number of these cases, the regression can be objectively assessed.
I hope your curiosity would have been satisfied by now. Well i couldn't understand what took you to Goindwal if you were not ready to accept the theory of re-incarnation? Why did you performed 84 Japji sahab path if mentally you were not prepared? I wonder.
Guru fateh !!
 
Nanaksari and some other Babae's are misqouting the concept of reincarnation and predict a false rumour that Guru Nanak ji or Guru Gobind Singh ji will come again. Absolutely impossible. Yes bhatt says, "Kawan kahat hai Guru muaa". When guru ji is not dead, he is present among 5 pyare. But the recarnation theory is different then this belief.
Dalai Lama before he dies, raises his finger in any particular direction and the followers search the new born babies in that direction. Through some of their technique they find out the new baby in new avtar of Dalai Lama. That also proves the theory of re-incarnation.
In AGGS, the mahalla, resembles one jot of Guru Nanak in all Gururs. Gyani ji do you have any doubt?
 

lotus lion

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Hi Gyani Jarnail Singh,

I think it is fair to say that you beleive that you do not believe in reincarnation.

"...due to the False beleif of reincarnation which is REJECTED by GURBANI"

"So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period."

If it is OK, I will take this as the starting point of our discussion.

If you feel that this is an unjust statement please say and we will take the conversation another direction.

Now I am afraid to say that you are completely mistaken. Perhaps even lost in a quagmire.

Reincarnation is a fundamental pillar of the Sikh Dharma, intertwined with Karma and is taught throughout the Guru Granth Sahib.

Please see one tuk of interest from many:

Sarab jī▫ā mėh eko ravai.
Among all beings, the One Lord is pervading.

Manmukẖ ahaʼnkārī fir jūnī bẖavai. ||5||
The eogtistical, self-willed manmukhs wander in reincarnation. ||5||

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 228

For Brothers and Sisters who are not versed in reading the Gurmukhi Script at the moment, Me included, i have included the transliteration.

Fir means again.

Juni means birth.

Therefore Fir Juni means Birth again. I.e. Reincarnation.

Would you agree with me that this statement means that the Guru Granth Sahib teaches about Reincarnation?

Sincerely Gyani Ji, I request that you answer the question directly so that we can actually have a real discussion. I say that as respectfully as i can as whenever i have asked directly, it is completely ignored.

Thanks,

Lotus
 

japjisahib04

Mentor
SPNer
Jan 22, 2005
822
1,292
kuwait
BOTH these scenarios are DIRECTLY due to the False beleif of reincarnation which is REJECTED by GURBANI.:yes::yes::yes: The Blind leading the Blind..towards OBLIVION...
Giani Ji

Though I totally reject these babas, but had there been no reincarnation, Guru Arjan Ji wouldn't have mislead us by stating, 'anik janam bharam thith nahi paey' SGGS 686.18. In addition if there is really no reincarnation then from where the carried forward Grace forthcome for those who are born in golden spoon and flourish without doing any good deeds or mediatating. On the other hand I have seen people who really are devoted and fully dedicated but one day I hear their young daughter becomes widow or other serious tragedy falls upon them.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
 
Jul 10, 2006
918
77


Kaur-1 ji,

Guru fateh.


The above has nothing to do with the concept of Ik Ong Kaar in Sikhi who is NIRBHAU and NIRVAIR.

So, the picture you showed has everything to do with actions of fiendish cruel people who make children suffer and starve while lining their own pockets with the aid they get from the outside world when famines or natural disasters are stuck.
Do you remember Katrina in New Orleans when Bush had no idea what was happening there while he was vacationing in Crawford, Texas, at his cozy ranch?

It has nothing to do with some unjust god the way you claimed.

Tejwant Singh
Tejwant singh ji, Hukam raja-ee calna Nanak lekhea naal. We do not know what karam we collected from our past lives whatever form they maybe. But there is no denying that each of us are born with hukam that is lekhea naal. One of this determines our lifespan. We do not remember our past and we do not know our future. This is why we treat our life as if its the last chance to achieve the purpose of life. Gurbani says to make effort now and not to waste time and therefore waste our human life so hard to get.

If there is only one life then its very obvious that its implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice when writing the hukam. This implies that God is unjust and unfair.
 
Last edited:
Jul 10, 2006
918
77
Tejwant ji

Though I do not think that Kaur-1 ji intended Ik Oankaar to be cast in the semitic way, I cannot help but repeat your words as follows:

So, the picture you showed has everything to do with actions of fiendish cruel people who make children suffer and starve while lining their own pockets with the aid they get from the outside world when famines or natural disasters are stuck.

A buzzard is waiting for a child to die of starvation and weakness - imagine the terror of the child -- because of the deeds, the kamas, of Manmukhs NOW. Deeds in a previous joon are of no relevance. All who put into action the political tactics that led to this, and all who failed to do something, anything, to stop it (me, I have done nothing) have turned their/my faces from the Guru. The fact of this evil is my punishment NOW. More importantly, having another chance in another lifetime to change my ways,purify my spiritual identity, and obtain mukhtee, does not achieve justice for that child NOW.
We do not know what our past karam are. We also do not remember our past lifes but we know this "ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ ਪਾਈ ਦ੍ਰੁਲਭ ਦੇਹ
Cẖirankāl pā▫ī ḏarulabẖ ḏeh.
After a very long time, one obtains this precious human body, so difficult to obtain.

ਬੜੇ ਚਿਰਾਂ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਿਲ ਨਾਲ ਹੱਥ ਲੱਗਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। "

quote Sakhi"
Mardana and the ants
Guru Nanak arrived in Eminabad, in those days called Saidapur, after the invasion of Babar. The followers of Ibrahim Lodhi, the Sultan of Delhi, had resisted and Babar's army had decimated the town. The buildings were burned and in ruins and women and children walked among the dead, weeping and wailing.
As they walked among the destruction Mardana asked, "The Sultan was not so very popular here. Why were the lives of so many innocent people ruined?"
"It's justice," said Guru Nanak.
"This can't be justice," said Mardana. "Most of those killed were honest, hardworking men. And what could the women and children have done to deserve this? I don't see how God could let something like this happen."
"I have business in another part of town," replied the Guru. "Why don't you rest here, and I will explain it when I get back?"
Mardana lay down under a banyan tree and was soon fast asleep. He awakened suddenly to a bite on his leg. Looking down, he saw that he was covered with ants. He jumped up, slapping his legs and stomping his feet. When he was satisfied that all the ants were gone he looked up to see Guru Nanak smiling at him.
"Only one of those ants bit you," said the Guru, "and look what you've done to their whole population. Just how many did you cripple or kill? And where is the guilty one?" "


The suffering person in the picture maybe in the situation he is because of past karam which is lekhea nal or may not be as the sakhi above says.

The child above is most probably born into a family who are already going through severe hardship. So why was he born into that family and not in my shoes?
Its all Gods play - a 'just' one and not a game of roll the dice.
 

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