Sexual Intercourse, Need Or A Want?

[justosh]

I wanted to ask this question because the thought arrived to me when i was at my college computer doing course work, and I BECAME hungry, with-out thinking about it.

So then i thought, one does not become aroused, just like i became hungry. With influences of Kaam (lust) around people and because of those influences images form in the mind which lead to one having desires (I have observed people in my class that respond like that, and its around 95% that do).


Point being i spontaneously became hungry, but one dose not spontaneously become aroused.......

So is it a need or a want?

i understand its a need to start a family, thats fair enough.... but what about these people who say it is a psychological need?

I welcome all faith and beliefs to comment, can be either religious, philosophical or psychological or all of them.

please, if you are going to state facts, can you please put a reference so we all can study it

Thanks

 

[Harry Haller]

I suppose sex could be debated long and hard and very little could be possibly achieved.

Food on a regular basis is essential to survival, sex is not.Once you have enough children, there is no point in having sex other than for procreation. Having said that the closest I feel to my wife is during sex, and that feels more spiritual than fun. The trouble is there are so many different types of sex, just as there different types of food. And do we actually get 'hungry' or do we yearn for a particular type of food, to taste, to devour, if it were hunger alone, surely rice and daal would do fine.

Sex as an expression of love between two people is a wonderful experience. Sex, having paid money for, and taking place in an alleyway stinking of urine is not so.

In my view, sex remains the closest you can get to another human being, it does not require money, status, finery, just an abundance of love, but like everything we experience,
the majesty has been stripped out of it, and it now represents pleasure, rather than union.

I think if sex is driven by love, union, intimacy, then it is a need, outside of these, it is a want.

 

[justosh]

But what about people who feel union with God or a being- that can be possible without sexual intercourse. further more do we need sex to express love and unity?

If i put it this way, when i went India for a month, there was little references to sexual activities hence i found myself thinking about it less- much to the point where i forgot about the influences in the UK, so when i came back to the UK the influences hit me hard, again found myself think about it alot.

so can one say it has been glorified by society so much that it has become a need?

 

[Harry Haller]

As I said before, sex outside of a loving relationship bears little resemblance to sex within. I find that the sex that one yearns for, lusts after, is predominantly the physical act, rather than the spiritual union, ie, the same way you may be hungry, but want a Big Mac rather than just the sensation of not feeling hungry.

There is a line of thought that union with God is akin to the best orgasm you have ever had, one could even ponder as to whether the spiritual pleasures of loving sex are there to give us an insight into the power of love, the feeling of oneness with another being.

Do we need sex to express love and unity? no, it is the other way round, sex is a medium to express love and unity, just as our hair expresses our love and unity with Creation. Should I grow my hair? Should I have sex? no, first find the love.

The more you write, the more I think you are talking about sex in its most basest act, rather than as a by product of a loving union.

There is a general line of thinking that the way to better sex is variety, to make sex sexier, clothing, fetishes, swinging, orgies, drugs, and those that are not having such sex, are not really living, but such sex leaves you feeling incredibly dirty, it demoralises you, it makes you a slave, and far from enhancing sex, it turns it from something beautiful and pure, into something disgusting and base, it numbs you, so that the rituals that surround the sexual act have to be more and more pronounced in order to get the same effect, it is a one way ticket to the very pit of your brain.But in the materialistic society we live in, the quick fix society, loving sex is seen as quaint and old fashioned.

I am as guilty as you, even though married, I still have the most sordid thoughts about my wife, I find it disrupts my connection with Creator, I cannot find myself in a state of Naam when I feel like this, it is base and for the self only, however, when I think of us as pure loving souls sharing that love, I find that compatible with a state of Naam, the gold thread of Hukam seems to flow through that action, if anything, to love someone that much, that you can experience such happiness is a blessing from Creator, anything else is just scratching an itch.

I note you are of a young age, some words of experience, for every sexual experience you have between now, and when you fall deeply in love, you will have more to undo in order to enjoy that love as Creator intended, I am 43 now, and still have not completely made up what I have lost through lust.

 

[Archived_member15]

"...The inner purpose of human sexuality is to regain wholeness and manifest the oneness of God..."

- Daniel Chanan Matt (Jewish Zohar translator)


"...The sexual relationship is in reality a thing of great exaltation when it is appropriate and harmonius...Keep this great secret and do not reveal it to anyone unworthy, for here is where you glimpse the secret of the loftiness of an appropriate sexual relationship...When the sexual relation points to the Name, there is nothing more righteous or more holy than it..."


- Moses ben Nahman (1194-1270 AD), Jewish Kabbalist master


Now this part should be be arresting: "When the sexual relation points to the Name, there is nothing more righteous or more holy than it"

Yes NOTHING is holier!

When sex is mutual and self-giving, when the two lovers care not about their own pleasure - solely at least - but about pleasuring the other, then sex can ascend to divine heights. It becomes an act of seva - mutual, self-sacrificing, self-giving love and in the sexual act what you have is not only the unity and harmony of the sexes, but an icon of that Higher unity between God and the soul.

However many sexual relationships nowadays are based not on self-giving love but rather on lust and the desire, merely, for the sensual pleasure itself rather than sex as an expression of a deep, loving, committed relationship between two people.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

gurmqI siB rs Bogdw vfw AwKwVw ]
Through the Guru`s Teachings, I enjoy all the pleasures in the great world-arena.

siB ieMdRIAw vis kir idqIE sqvMqw swVw ] .The True Lord has brought all my senses and organs under my control.

 

[Harry Haller]

Just to throw an interesting dimension into the arena, where does that leave masturbation........?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

where does that leave masturbation........?

Veer Ji I'm not sure thats what Vouthon meant by describing a

self-giving love

 

[Randip Singh]

Look Sikhism talks about Kaam, which is an un-natural obsession with sex. It's about self gratification.

Sex per se is not unnatural and Sikhism does not condemn it as per my understanding.

 

[Kamala]

Kaam has nothing to do with having sex with your consort, it is not bad at all for wanting to have it with your consort, the main reason why Kaam is bad is because some people cheat on their wives or husbands. The bad Kaam that the Guru ji talks about is that if you cheat on your consort or have crushes on random people because they are "hot"

So mainly Kaam is only bad if you use it on someone other than your consort. You can think someone is sexy but you shouldn't want to have sex with them.

 

[Kamala]

Just to throw an interesting dimension into the arena, where does that leave masturbation........?

Abrahamic religons would say it is bad, but honestly I don't think it is condemned, we shouldn't just talk about these stuff in the religious site... also if you do it, whatever, not our problem, but please have some shame (not at you harry) and do not freely mention it.

 

[Harry Haller]

Kaam has nothing to do with having sex with your consort, it is not bad at all for wanting to have it with your consort, the main reason why Kaam is bad is because some people cheat on their wives or husbands. The bad Kaam that the Guru ji talks about is that if you cheat on your consort or have crushes on random people because they are "hot"



So mainly Kaam is only bad if you use it on someone other than your consort. You can think someone is sexy but you shouldn't want to have sex with them.

Sorry Bhenji, but I think you are wrong. To say there is nothing at all wrong with kaam for your consort is misguided in my opinion. I am one of those extremely lucky men who actually finds it difficult to find other women attractive. My absolute ideal partner purely from a physical angle is my wife, this is great as it means she never has to worry about me straying, but, do I feel I am acting within Sikhi, when her back hurts, and she needs me to be gentle, kind, loving, and all I can think about is Kaam?

Or, lets say my wife is feeling a bit unloved, the dog has died, she has had a bad day at work, what she needs more than anything is love, lots of love, unconditional love, not Kaam, what she does not need is Kaam...

Even now I find it incredibly difficult to just 'have a kiss, or have a cuddle', as a man, I am focusing on where this will all lead to, not just concentrating on the moment, and how beautiful the moment is, but the good bit, the kaam bit.

I know that when I stroke my wifes hair, cuddle her and then turn over to go sleep, she feels a lot more appreciated and loved than if let kaam take over whenever I feel like it.

for the record, I define kaam as lust with no love present, the sort of thing animals do. ....

 

[Harry Haller]

Abrahamic religons would say it is bad, but honestly I don't think it is condemned, we shouldn't just talk about these stuff in the religious site... also if you do it, whatever, not our problem, but please have some shame (not at you harry) and do not freely mention it.

Kamalaji

I respect your sentiments, however I would not class this site as a religious site, anymore than I would class myself as a religious person. Actually I despise the word, it conjures up images of people more concerned with rituals and appearances than substance. I am not religious, I merely crave the truth.

This site to me, is a site devoted to the furthering of philosophy that is in line with Bani. The next step, having made oneself aware of this philosophy is to live it.

If one is going to live than it is important that one imports and accepts this philosophy 100% completely into every part of ones life.

If we ignore this avenue, than we also ignore a huge amount of people for whom Kaam is a massive problem, despite having no partner.

 

[Kamala]

Sorry Bhenji, but I think you are wrong. To say there is nothing at all wrong with kaam for your consort is misguided in my opinion. I am one of those extremely lucky men who actually finds it difficult to find other women attractive. My absolute ideal partner purely from a physical angle is my wife, this is great as it means she never has to worry about me straying, but, do I feel I am acting within Sikhi, when her back hurts, and she needs me to be gentle, kind, loving, and all I can think about is Kaam?

Or, lets say my wife is feeling a bit unloved, the dog has died, she has had a bad day at work, what she needs more than anything is love, lots of love, unconditional love, not Kaam, what she does not need is Kaam...

Even now I find it incredibly difficult to just 'have a kiss, or have a cuddle', as a man, I am focusing on where this will all lead to, not just concentrating on the moment, and how beautiful the moment is, but the good bit, the kaam bit.

I know that when I stroke my wifes hair, cuddle her and then turn over to go sleep, she feels a lot more appreciated and loved than if let kaam take over whenever I feel like it.

for the record, I define kaam as lust with no love present, the sort of thing animals do. ....

Lust for your consort is OK. As long as it is not for anyone else.

Kamalaji

I respect your sentiments, however I would not class this site as a religious site, anymore than I would class myself as a religious person. Actually I despise the word, it conjures up images of people more concerned with rituals and appearances than substance. I am not religious, I merely crave the truth.

This site to me, is a site devoted to the furthering of philosophy that is in line with Bani. The next step, having made oneself aware of this philosophy is to live it.

If one is going to live than it is important that one imports and accepts this philosophy 100% completely into every part of ones life.

If we ignore this avenue, than we also ignore a huge amount of people for whom Kaam is a massive problem, despite having no partner.

I think this is a very religious site, I see Ik Onkaars everywhere and debates on religion. Is Bani not religious? Also I already said what is to be said, that Kaam for your consort is OK but not for anyone else. If people think it is OK to have Kaam for anyone other than your consort, then that is their problem, lol.

 

[Luckysingh]

Well how about the couples that maintain their mutual love by encouraging each other to have sexual encounters with another person and sometimes prefer to watch ??
In UK this activity was known as 'swinging'

 

[Randip Singh]

Sorry Bhenji, but I think you are wrong. To say there is nothing at all wrong with kaam for your consort is misguided in my opinion. I am one of those extremely lucky men who actually finds it difficult to find other women attractive. My absolute ideal partner purely from a physical angle is my wife, this is great as it means she never has to worry about me straying, but, do I feel I am acting within Sikhi, when her back hurts, and she needs me to be gentle, kind, loving, and all I can think about is Kaam?

Or, lets say my wife is feeling a bit unloved, the dog has died, she has had a bad day at work, what she needs more than anything is love, lots of love, unconditional love, not Kaam, what she does not need is Kaam...

Even now I find it incredibly difficult to just 'have a kiss, or have a cuddle', as a man, I am focusing on where this will all lead to, not just concentrating on the moment, and how beautiful the moment is, but the good bit, the kaam bit.

I know that when I stroke my wifes hair, cuddle her and then turn over to go sleep, she feels a lot more appreciated and loved than if let kaam take over whenever I feel like it.

for the record, I define kaam as lust with no love present, the sort of thing animals do. ....

Even Kaam for your partner is bad, because Kaam is an un-natural obsession with sex. In this respect Kaam could take the form of forcing your partner to have sex when she/he does not wish to.....or wish to partake in certain practices.

There is a huge difference between Kaam and making love to your partner.

For many years I could not get my head around this concept. I thought Kaam just was sex, and I thought how can sex be bad in a loving relationship? Then I realised, that Kaam is an "Obsession". It is about SELF gratification. Making love is about giving, mutuality, tenderness and above all LOVE. Kaam has nothing to do with love but has everything to do with selfwill, and satisfying self.

 

[justosh]

Sorry was very busy last night so couldn't reply, but now that im reading the replies i understands that its the intention behind the act that has become a "need" not the act itself. however i still hold to the point about the type of environment, just as Guru Arjan Ji said "the environment puts the dirt on ones mind".

Saying that, what the border of love and lust?

 

[Harry Haller]

Saying that, what the border of love and lust?

the point where you are more interested in your pleasure than your partners pleasure

 

[Randip Singh]

the point where you are more interested in your pleasure than your partners pleasure

Exactly!!!

We are then in effect Munmookh, selfwilled.

 

[Kamala]

Lol, I already made my point. Basically it is OK for your partner, not for anyone else though. Kaam is used by everyone to have children, even great avatars/gurus have children lol, that doesn't mean that they sinned in that area xD