Serving A True Guru

[AmbarDhara]

Serving a True Guru

A true Guru is one who knows the Truth, who is Eternal, so is capable of showing us the True Path to reach the Ultimate Truth. Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Gurbani is my True Guru, The Divine Light. It dwells in my heart. I have made Singing Lord's Praises my occupation(way of living). I do it by all means and I do it for all the time. This is my service towards my Guru. I share my Guru's words with others as well.

Today I am going to share the following Shabad with those who are interested in Gurbani. In this Shabad Guru Ji describes :What happens when we place our faith in the True Guru.

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar


Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi


SGGS JI

ANG 18​

SATGURU PRASAAD​

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
sireeraag mehalaa 1 ||
Siree Raag, First Mehl:


ਭਲੀ ਸਰੀ ਜਿ ਉਬਰੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੁਈ ਘਰਾਹੁ ॥
bhalee saree j oubaree houmai muee gharaahu ||
It all worked out-I was saved, and the egotism within my heart was subdued.


ਦੂਤ ਲਗੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥
dhooth lagae fir chaakaree sathigur kaa vaesaahu ||
The evil energies have been made to serve me, since I placed my faith in the True Guru.


ਕਲਪ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
kalap thiaagee baadh hai sachaa vaeparavaahu ||1||
I have renounced my useless schemes, by the Grace of the True, Carefree Lord. ||1||


ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਭਉ ਜਾਇ ॥
man rae sach milai bho jaae ||
O mind, meeting with the True One, fear departs.


ਭੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਕਿਉ ਥੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
bhai bin nirabho kio thheeai guramukh sabadh samaae ||1|| rehaao ||
Without the Fear of God, how can anyone become fearless? Become Gurmukh, and immerse yourself in the Shabad. ||1||Pause||


ਕੇਤਾ ਆਖਣੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਖਣਿ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
kaethaa aakhan aakheeai aakhan thott n hoe ||
How can we describe Him with words? There is no end to the descriptions of Him.


ਮੰਗਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਕੇਤੜੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਇ ॥
mangan vaalae kaetharrae dhaathaa eaeko soe ||
There are so many beggars, but He is the only Giver.


ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਪਰਾਣ ਹੈ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
jis kae jeea paraan hai man vasiai sukh hoe ||2||
He is the Giver of the soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life; when He dwells within the mind, there is peace. ||2||


ਜਗੁ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਬਾਜੀ ਬਨੀ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਾਇ ॥
jag supanaa baajee banee khin mehi khael khaelaae ||
The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out.


ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕਸੇ ਵਿਜੋਗੀ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
sanjogee mil eaekasae vijogee outh jaae ||
Some attain union with the Lord, while others depart in separation.


ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੩॥
jo this bhaanaa so thheeai avar n karanaa jaae ||3||
Whatever pleases Him comes to pass; nothing else can be done. ||3||


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
guramukh vasath vaesaaheeai sach vakhar sach raas ||
The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.


ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥
jinee sach vananjiaa gur poorae saabaas ||
Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.


ਨਾਨਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਪਛਾਣਸੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਉਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੪॥੧੧॥
naanak vasath pashhaanasee sach soudhaa jis paas ||4||11||
O Nanak, one who stocks this True Merchandise shall recognize and realize the Genuine Article. ||4||11||​

Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan


Gurbani alakh lakhiayaa


Gurbani Gavo Bhaee


charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

AMBARDHARA ji

Your explanation of a TRUE GURU is not sufficient. I'd love it if you throw some light. You said true guru is one who knows the truth.I want to ask you "What is the truth???"

WHAT IS BAANI???
You have written that singing Lord's praises is my service to him. But i have to tell you here for your own benefit that singing Lord's praises is not the SERVICE with which you will merge with the almighty. Singing his praises is not the way he pleases. The objective of this life is to merge with him. Singing lord's praises is not going to take you anywhere.

You have also written that you share Guru's words with others as well, it is welcomed if that sharing takes the listener to the right path but you yourself are not aware that singing lord's praises is not the true service to him.

 

[spnadmin]

Nirmaljot Baidwan ji

First, please avoid the use of caps and bold caps when posting as it looks like screaming and we ask members not to do this.

Very interesting ideas you have put out for discussion. Help me understand a little better what your own understanding is. It is difficult for me to understand how and why you differ with Ambardhara.

Your explanation of a TRUE GURU is not sufficient. I'd love it if you throw some light. You said true guru is one who knows the truth

. How do you define True Guru?

I want to ask you "What is the truth???"

How do you define the truth?

WHAT IS BAANI???

What is your definition of baani?

i have to tell you here for your own benefit that singing Lord's praises is not the SERVICE with which you will merge with the almighty. Singing his praises is not the way he pleases.

What do you think pleases him?

The objective of this life is to merge with him. Singing lord's praises is not going to take you anywhere.

What do you think will take us there?

you yourself are not aware that singing lord's praises is not the true service to him.

What do you believe is true service to him?

If you can bear with these questions and answer them the thread will mean more and we will know what you think. That will make the discussion more interesting. :happykaur:

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

SPNADMIN JI

i'll surely put my thoughts forward regarding all the questions i put. But i want to know the understanding of AmbarDhara ji Or anyone else can get into it and reply to what questions i have put. Then i'll surely answer to the questions that i put.

THANKS:sippingcoffeemunda:

 

[spnadmin]

Our problem is that Ambardhara does not visit the forum any more. So we would be waiting , for some of us, until we are called to the Court of the Lord, before anything would happen. So why don't you go ahead. It will make things more interesting if you do and in my case I will get to read your ideas before I am called to account.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Our problem is that Ambardhara does not visit the forum any more. So we would be waiting , for some of us, until we are called to the Court of the Lord, before anything would happen. So why don't you go ahead. It will make things more interesting if you do and in my case I will get to read your ideas before I am called to account.
spnadmin ji Ambarsaria here to roll the ball as one might say. I think there is enough common between the two Ambars (skies), Ambardhara/Ambarsaria lol

AMBARDHARA ji

Your explanation of a TRUE GURU is not sufficient. I'd love it if you throw some light. You said true guru is one who knows the truth.I want to ask you "What is the truth???"

WHAT IS BAANI???
You have written that singing Lord's praises is my service to him. But i have to tell you here for your own benefit that singing Lord's praises is not the SERVICE with which you will merge with the almighty. Singing his praises is not the way he pleases. The objective of this life is to merge with him. Singing lord's praises is not going to take you anywhere.

You have also written that you share Guru's words with others as well, it is welcomed if that sharing takes the listener to the right path but you yourself are not aware that singing lord's praises is not the true service to him.

Nirmaljot Baidwan ji I read your post with interest and some assumptions as to what you were projecting. While it is good to say something is not right, I think it is also equally if not more important to describe what that right is. I believe that is where most of spnadmin ji's questions stem from.

I can comment but I cannot comment on your behalf, because I am not you even though we are all from one:interestedmunda:.

Your post actually started a little spark in my head and I hope it is in line with the content of this thread.

What I read so far is the emphasis on "service" and specifically service to the Guru.

For example is it a valid service to recite praises of the Guru or God? I would say it is not just as you seem to say in your post. Let me explain,

• Praise is the act of making positive statements about a person, object or idea, either in public or privately. Praise is typically, but not exclusively, earned relative to achievement and accomplishment.
  • Does God need our praise as an action, my suggestion will be no, it is not required.
• Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is a treatise with many and large number of Shabads steering us towards one God that is the creator of all and praising the same God that is everywhere and in each of us.
  • • Through shabads about our mortality
    • Through shabads about the greatness of God's creation
    • Through shabads about getting rid of wrong assumptions about God and the worship
    • Through shabads about false worldly techniques and practices about salvation
    • ..... and a very large quantity of others
• Given the contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, what is the praise we mortals can offer
  • • We can understand ourselves whether through understood singing, reciting, etc.
    • We can understand through discourse.
    • We can share our understanding through any of recitation, discourse, facilitating access
      • The focus must be on understanding though
    • This I will call praising in the right sense where the praise is,
      • Not to say how good God is but understanding what it is.
      • Not to sing how good God is but understanding what it is.
      • Not to recite how good God is but understanding what it is.
• The only override for me in the above is per the saying, "does the end justify the means"
  • Say we all the creation of God have different techniques towards understanding, can those be followed?
    • For me the answer would be "Yes" as long as we don't start taking measure in contradiction of the teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
      • Say start looking for "Gurus", "Cheat sheets or fast tracker sant mahants", etc., as these will create enough of a barrier that the results will be a mirage of success while in fact these will be a failure

I hope this gives some food for thought in this thread.

I believe upto this point no one is totally wrong or off course in this thread but perhaps there are red flags here and there which require some clarification.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: I personally find music a good solace in this crazy world as it gives you the rhythm and the message if you try to understand the words. Aside from Shabad Kirtan, Gurdass Mann and the like, I enjoy the following type and always ponder whether some of Baba Bulley Shah writings would have been considered by our Gurus has Baba Bulley Shah been born few centuries earlier,

Baba Bulleh Shah - Sher Miandad Khan - Raaz Dhiya Gallan

YouTube - Baba Bulleh Shah - Sher Miandad Khan - Raaz Dhiya Gallan

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

AMBARSARIA JI

I somewhat agree with your thoughts particularly when u say.

"This I will call praising in the right sense where the praise is,

• Not to say how good God is but understanding what it is.
• Not to sing how good God is but understanding what it is.
• Not to recite how good God is but understanding what it is.

"
But from where will the understanding of that almighty will come??? This is still a question. It cannot come with our own designed methods. Is there any method that god himself created to meet him. If he could be achieved by just reciting hymns or baani(AKHRI BAANI) then everyone would have been to SACHKHAND. But this is not the truth as we can see that many who teach the masses or tell the masses about spirituality are entangled in many controversies. This world is full with false gurus, but on the other hand this world has never been fair to the true saints because the true saints preached what is the truth & truth is not liked by many. You can take examples of our gurus only from First Mehl to tenth Mehl, the world was not even fair to them.

But cant there be any true saint in this world??? Is sikhism against saints and saadhs???
Suppose if Guru Nanak comes again to this world, will we be able to recognise him???

Well this might be getting out of the context of the thread, this was just a thought that came to my mind and i shared.

Talking about the questions i put, i'll surely answer them but i need time. May be few hours.

THANKS & REGARDS

 

[Ambarsaria]

AMBARSARIA JI

I somewhat agree with your thoughts particularly when u say.

"This I will call praising in the right sense where the praise is,

• Not to say how good God is but understanding what it is.
• Not to sing how good God is but understanding what it is.
• Not to recite how good God is but understanding what it is.

"
But from where will the understanding of that almighty will come??? This is still a question. It cannot come with our own designed methods. Is there any method that god himself created to meet him. If he could be achieved by just reciting hymns or baani(AKHRI BAANI) then everyone would have been to SACHKHAND. But this is not the truth as we can see that many who teach the masses or tell the masses about spirituality are entangled in many controversies. This world is full with false gurus, but on the other hand this world has never been fair to the true saints because the true saints preached what is the truth & truth is not liked by many. You can take examples of our gurus only from First Mehl to tenth Mehl, the world was not even fair to them.

But cant there be any true saint in this world??? Is sikhism against saints and saadhs???
Suppose if Guru Nanak comes again to this world, will we be able to recognise him???

Well this might be getting out of the context of the thread, this was just a thought that came to my mind and i shared.

Talking about the questions i put, i'll surely answer them but i need time. May be few hours.

THANKS & REGARDS

Nirmaljot Baidwan

But cant there be any true saint in this world??? Is sikhism against saints and saadhs???
This is one of the essences of our Gurus teachings to tell us that God/Sachkhand is within each of us. You don't need a third person to find what is inside you.

So Gurbani in Shabad after Shabad helps with this self discovery if you put your resources to it. Only a "Pakhandi" can let you hitch a ride to Sachkhand/God. Analogy is you probably seen lot of Babey/Pundits/Clairvoyants telling you on TV how they can solve all your problems and bring you luck. How come they cannot pick a lottery number every time (I am sure it is simpler than finding God) but are too happy to put their hand in your pocket. This is "Gol Mol" (a thievery) business and nothing more nothing less

So in the end only you are in-charge of yourself.

Suppose if Guru Nanak comes again to this world, will we be able to recognise him???

The power of persuasion of Guru Nanak Dev ji, the fearlessness so awesome, and their humbleness so high, that he will be easily recognizable. How will you recognize,

• You will see Baba Nanak kick some serious butt of the,
  • Radhasowamis, Nanaksarias, Ramdasias, Sach Khandias,etc., without favoring any one of these
    • So by corollory baba Nanak is not there in any of these or other places
  • Hindu establishment in Delhi and their surrogates who have forgotten why they are still Hindu!
  • He will go after the Talibans, the Ayatollahs, the Akalis, the BJP, and the like to call their bluffs

Ek baba Nanak si - Babbu Mann's Latest Song - By SharanHayer

YouTube - Ek baba Nanak si - Babbu Mann's Latest Song - By SharanHayer

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

@ ambarsariya
I quote you.
""This is one of the essences of our Gurus teachings to tell us that God/Sachkhand is within each of us. You don't need a third person to find what is inside you"".


That is absolutely right that everything is within us and v'll find everything within us but have you found the way with which v'll find everything within us???? I have read & understood gurbani again and again but it does not tell me that by reading you will find everything within us.winkingmunda

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

guru saheb said

sB mih ieku vrqdw eyko rihAw smwie ] (27-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.
ijs nau Awip dieAwlu hoie so gurmuiK nwim smwie ]2] (27-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||
piV piV pMifq joqkI vwd krih bIcwru ] (27-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.
miq buiD BvI n buJeI AMqir loB ivkwru ] (27-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.
lK caurwsIh Brmdy BRim BRim hoie KuAwru ] (27-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.



guru saheb has clearly said that too much reading results to debate and arguing. It also leads to ego (haomai). Guru saheb gives us the example of PANDITS but this example is according to his time. These days sikhs are also in the same league, just like pandits recite hymns , we sikhs are parroting gurbani, reading superficially. The need of the hour is to understand what guru saheb has said, i.e just reading will not take you anywhere. I hope you agree with me.

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

well sir i do read with an open mind and if i write some things in here because of my open mindset i am sure i'd ruffle many feathers here.

I'd like to correct you regarding the perception you have about me sir. I do not read to prove my point of view. I write what i read that means i read first and then write , not that i write first and then read to prove myself. I do not read anybody's translation because everybody has their own mind set. I only read what GURU SAHEB wrote. And many thoughts are expressed by GURU SAHEB in very simple language like the shabd i quoted from SGGS. I Just searched SGGS randomly and i found that shabad. What i told you is said by guru saheb many many times in SGGS that reading will not take you anywhere and i'll stay on my words. May be i can quote many more shabads from SGGS to bolster the concept of reading. And sir i dont just read the lines of gurbani i understand them and i read the whole shabd. U tell me here that u are a bit old sir, and you also talked about oneness and realisation within, in an earlier post. Can i ask you what realisation you have had within???

Dont you think sir that after death anyone can realise the truth , when he/she cant during their lifetime.

THANKS& REGARDS.

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

NOW I COME TO THE MAIN TOPIC OF THE THREAD
I put forward some questions and spnadmin ji requestioned those questions. I’d like to discuss my views with an open mind as suggested by Ambarsaria ji.

1st Ques- How do you define True Guru?
Ans- True guru is the one who proscribes or prohibits his follower or we can say sikhs from mundane deeds or mundane affairs or rituals because a true guru tells us that these mundane deeds or rituals are not the right path to salvation or merging with the almighty. Guru sahib has told us in SGGS that the true teerath or srovar(holy pond) is within us, inside us & not anywhere else.
A true guru will never tell us to be involved in rituals or mundane affairs . He will not tell us stories, he will tell us the truth, he will only speak about the truth, rather he’ll show you the truth. Is there any technique that guru will tell us to merge with him ??? Infact yes there must be a technique , that’s why guru nanak dev ji said in SGGS on pg 58
ll੪ll ਹਉ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਉ ਆਪ੍ਨੇ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਉ
ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਓ
ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਮਿਲਾਵੜਾ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਚਿ ਮਿਲਾਓ ll੫ll
This is the verse between the number locks 4 & 5 of the shabad of Sri guru nanak dev ji. Guru sahib clearly tells us that “I ASKED MY GURU & THEN I STARTED TO WORK ON THE PATH AS TOLD BY MY GURU” . Guru sahib in other two lines of the verse tells us that after asking my guru I started to n the path of shabad & this destroyed my ego & after that gradually the true guru (ਸਾਚੇ) helped me meet the truth (ਸਾਚਿ). So its with the grace of true guru Guru Nanak met the truth , Guru Nanak who was himself SHABD SAROOP(form of shabd)needed a true guru, then who are we , who can meet the truth on our own???

One more interesting point here from this shabad is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had a guru but there was a lot of ambiguity as to who was his guru. But this ambiguity doesn’t change the fact that We need a true guru.

INTERESTINGLY I was further reading SGGS and I found another Shabad where Guru nanak talked about his Guru And his guru’s grace. On pg 14th Of SGGS

ll ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉll
llਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ll
llਮਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ll੧ll
llਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉll
llਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ ll੧llਰਹਾਉll

here again guru sahib is talking about his guru. So a guru is must. Also Guru nanak’s guru must be a human a man as was with 2nd , 3rd ,4th ,5th ……..10th guru. Also guru raam dass ji says IN SGGS on pg 40 which bolsters the concept of a man being a true guru.




ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤੀਐ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੈ ਧ੍ਰਿਗ ਜੀਵਾਸੁ
ਕੋਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਮੈ ਦਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ
ਹਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਚਉ ਖੰਨੀਐ ਮੈ ਨਾਮ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ll੧ ll
ਮੇਰ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮਾ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ
ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ll੧ llਰਹਾਉ ll
ਨਾਮੁ ਅਮੋਲਕੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਹੈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੈ ਲਗਿਆ ਕਢਿ ਰਤਨੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ
ਧੰਨੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਵਡ ਭਾਗੀਆ ਜੋ ਆਇ ਮਿਲੇ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ll੨ ll
ਜਿਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਾ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਵਸਿ ਕਾਲ
ਓਇ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਿਸਟਾ ਕਰਿ ਵਿਕਰਾਲ
ਓਹਨਾ ਪਾਸਿ ਦੁਆਸਿ ਣ ਭਿਟੀਐ ਜਿਨ ਅੰਤਰ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਚੰਡਾਲll ੩ll
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਆਇ
ਉਨ ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮੈਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ
ਜਾਂ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ll

I have quoted the whole shabd here but only to show that guru sahib has used the words “SAJJAN” & “PURKH” PURKH clearly stands for a “MAN”, SAJJAN is also used to describe the quality of a man where a person is very helpful or seeks our well being.

Its written “KOI GURMUKH SAJJAN JE MILAI MEIN DASSAI PRABH GUNTAAS”

KOI signifies to me that probability of someone being a true guru is not very high but guru sahib says if you meet a true guru he will tell you about the GOD “MEIN DASSAI PRABH GUNTAAS”

Guru sahib at some other place in SGGS has mentioned that
“ avar kaaj tere kitae naa kaam, mil saadh sangat bhaj keval naam”

Gurur sahib is askin us to meet a saadh or sant that’s why I asked AMBARSARIA JI that is Sikhism against saints????

He replied
“This is one of the essences of our Gurus teachings to tell us that God/Sachkhand is within each of us. You don't need a third person to find what is inside you.

So Gurbani in Shabad after Shabad helps with this self discovery if you put your resources to it. Only a "Pakhandi" can let you hitch a ride to Sachkhand/God. Analogy is you probably seen lot of Babey/Pundits/Clairvoyants telling you on TV how they can solve all your problems and bring you luck. How come they cannot pick a lottery number every time (I am sure it is simpler than finding God) but are too happy to put their hand in your pocket. This is "Gol Mol" (a thievery) business and nothing more nothing less”

AMBARSARIA ji was talking about realization within and not involving a third person . I agree that there are many false saints or gurus but there must be some true one, one in millions that’s why guru sahib said “ਕੋਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਮੈ ਦਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ ”. but U are not right in stating that you don’t need a third person, what you meant is you don’t need a guru & this is a statement directly opposite to SGGS . Otherwise guru sahb would not state what I mentioned in the shabads above.
Guru nanak sahib would not clearly mention that “mein apna guru pooch dekhya”

I’d also state that when guru nanak was here ,he was clearly against the rituals prevailing that time. SO I have to say that his guru must be a man. AND GURU SAHIB HAS SAID “”mein apna guru pooch dekhya””
Guru sahib says “pooch dekhya” not parh dekhya.
And the verse “GURU MAANYO GRANTH” is not in our SGGS.

So I have made my point clear that you need to have a true guru and follow what he tells you. This is the path of guru nanak and all the gurus.

True guru will not tell you other stories, he might not benefit you from outside but he will from inside. TRUE guru is the true “AMRITSAR” where contaminated souls take bath and are purified , I can put a whole shabad from gurbani supporting this statement but it’ll increase the size of the post.
68 TEERATHS are in the feet of the true guru. TRUE guru will tell you about naam and not just AKHRI NAAM. I’ve always stated that by naam guru sahib never meant some written words , naam is a power which cannot be bound in words, which cannot be bound in a book. NAAM SHABAD BAANI HUKAM are all used in the same context in SGGS. TRUE GURU has been given a lot of importance in SGGS and also mentioned in SGGS as I above mentioned, guru sahib says
“ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਾ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਵਸਿ ਕਾਲ”
Purkh (man )is used to signify the satguru or true guru. I think we all have to search for a true guru. Don’t know about all but I have to search as mentioned by guru sahib in SGGS.

THESE THOUGHTS ARE WRITTEN WITH A VERY OPEN MINDSET AS ASKED BY SRI AMBARSARIYA JI> DO READ THESE WITH OPEN MINDSET. THIS IS NOTHING BUT WRITTEN IN SGGS.

The answer to the first ques put forward has gotten so lengthy, it could have gotten more lengthy if I would give other examples from SGGS. But I decide to put a halt. I’ll answer other questions iun separate posts.

REGARDS & THANKS
***

 

[Seeker9]

I’d also state that when guru nanak was here ,he was clearly against the rituals prevailing that time. SO I have to say that his guru must be a man. AND GURU SAHIB HAS SAID “”mein apna guru pooch dekhya””
Guru sahib says “pooch dekhya” not parh dekhya.
And the verse “GURU MAANYO GRANTH” is not in our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Dear Nirmaljot Ji

It's an interesting post

Re the part I have quoted above, from my limited knowledge it is my understanding that the 10th Guru bestowed Guruship upon Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.....

What are your views on this?

Before you answer, may I suggest you take some time to review this thread if you have not done so already:
Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth and the Radha Soami:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sects-groups-cults/3214-sab-sikhan-ko-hukam-hai-guru.html

 

[Ambarsaria]

Nirmaljot Baidwan ji I commented on your post below in red. Hope it is of value for your consideration.

NOW I COME TO THE MAIN TOPIC OF THE THREAD
I put forward some questions and spnadmin ji requestioned those questions. I’d like to discuss my views with an open mind as suggested by Ambarsaria ji.

1st Ques- How do you define True Guru?
Ans- True guru (God within and discovery through the guidance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) is the one who proscribes or prohibits (helps and leads) his follower or we can say sikhs from mundane deeds or mundane affairs or rituals (once you discover you don't need directions as to when to eat or what to eat or do, you are enlightened within and not a dependent person on anyone for spirituality) because a true guru tells us that these mundane deeds or rituals are not the right path to salvation or merging with the almighty (God is within you, where do you want to merge into! God's nature is all around with the same God embodiment, so synergistic working within and without is possible). Guru sahib has told us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that the true teerath or srovar(holy pond) is within us, inside us & not anywhere else.
A true guru will never tell us to be involved in rituals or mundane affairs (Enlightened does not need to classify) . He will not tell us stories (stories are a way of describing concepts and stories are not needed for people of all understandings. How many times you go to a Gurdwara that you feel you are smarter than the Katha person, Bhai ji, and the silent/vocal Babey, etc., it happens to me sometimes and it will happen differently to different people based on their level of understanding of Gurbani), he will tell us the truth, he will only speak about the truth, rather he’ll show you the truth. Is there any technique that guru will tell us to merge with him (again I don't understand this merging business, you have God within and God outside (both same), who you want to merge with to do what?) ??? Infact yes there must be a technique , that’s why guru nanak dev ji said in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on pg 58
ll੪ll ਹਉ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਉ ਆਪ੍ਨੇ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਉ
ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਓ
ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਮਿਲਾਵੜਾ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਚਿ ਮਿਲਾਓ ll੫ll
(ਗੁਰ is God in the above, the supreme Guru if you wish and within you to discover)

This is the verse between the number locks 4 & 5 of the shabad of Sri guru nanak dev ji. Guru sahib clearly tells us that “I ASKED MY GURU & THEN I STARTED TO WORK ON THE PATH AS TOLD BY MY GURU” . Guru sahib in other two lines of the verse tells us that after asking my guru (God) I started to n the path of shabad (Gurbani) & this destroyed my ego & after that gradually the true guru (ਸਾਚੇ) helped me meet the truth (ਸਾਚਿ). So its with the grace of true guru Guru Nanak met the truth , Guru Nanak who was himself SHABD SAROOP(form of shabd)needed a true guru (he believed in God as his Guru), then who are we , who can meet the truth on our own??? (Guru Nanak asked all to believe in one God, well summarized in mool mantir)

One more interesting point here from this shabad is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had a guru but there was a lot of ambiguity as to who was his guru (We should not confuse human teachers or wise men with Guru or God). But this ambiguity doesn’t change the fact (there is no fact to change) that We need a true guru.

INTERESTINGLY I was further reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and I found another Shabad where Guru nanak talked about his Guru And his guru’s grace. On pg 14th Of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

ll ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉll
llਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ll
llਮਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ll੧ll
llਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉll
llਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ ll੧llਰਹਾਉll
(ਗੁਰੁ God)

here again guru sahib is talking about his guru (God). So a guru is must (belief in God is a must). Also Guru nanak’s guru (God) must be a human (that is what Babeys, bad teachers and like want one to believe) a man (Guru Nanak left you his teaching and so did the others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) as was with 2nd , 3rd ,4th ,5th ……..10th guru. Also guru raam dass ji says IN Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on pg 40 which bolsters the concept (this is the warning from people much wiser than us that if you are reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to bolster such things, you are going to miss the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) of a man being a true guru.




ਨਾਮੁਮਿਲੈਮਨੁਤ੍ਰਿਪਤੀਐਬਿਨੁਨਾਮੈਧ੍ਰਿਗਜੀਵਾਸੁ
ਕੋਈਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਸਜਣੁਜੇਮਿਲੈਮੈਦਸੈਪ੍ਰਭੁਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ
ਹਉਤਿਸੁਵਿਟਹੁਚਉਖੰਨੀਐਮੈਨਾਮਕਰੇਪਰਗਾਸੁll੧ll
ਮੇਰ੍ਰੇਪ੍ਰੀਤਮਾਹਉਜੀਵਾ ਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਇ
ਬਿਨੁਨਾਵੈਜੀਵਣੁਨਾਥੀਐਮੇਰੇਸਤਿਗੁਰਨਾਮੁਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏll੧llਰਹਾਉll
ਨਾਮੁਅਮੋਲਕੁਰਤਨੁਹੈਪੂਰੇਸਤਿਗੁਰਪਾਸਿ
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਸੇਵੈਲਗਿਆਕਢਿਰਤਨੁਦੇਵੈਪਰਗਾਸਿ
ਧੰਨੁਵਡਭਾਗੀਵਡਭਾਗੀਆਜੋਆਇਮਿਲੇਗੁਰਪਾਸਿll੨ll
ਜਿਨਾਸਤਿਗੁਰਪੁਰਖੁਨਾਭੇਟਿਓਸੇਭਾਗਹੀਣਵਸਿਕਾਲ
ਓਇਫਿਰਿਫਿਰਿਜੋਨਿਭਵਾਈਅਹਿਵਿਚਿਵਿਸਟਾਕਰਿਵਿਕਰਾਲ
ਓਹਨਾਪਾਸਿਦੁਆਸਿਣਭਿਟੀਐਜਿਨਅੰਤਰਕ੍ਰੋਧੁਚੰਡਾਲll ੩ll
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਪੁਰਖੁਅਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰੁਵਡਭਾਗੀਨਾਵਹਿਆਇ
ਉਨਜਨਮਜਨਮਕੀਮੈਲੁਉਤਰੈਨਿਰਮਲਨਾਮਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ
ਜਾਂਨਾਨਕਉਤਮਪਦੁਪਾਇਆਸਤਿਗੁਰਕੀਲਿਵਲਾਇll

I have quoted the whole shabd here but only to show that guru sahib has used the words “SAJJAN” & “PURKH” PURKH clearly stands for a “MAN”, SAJJAN is also used to describe the quality of a man where a person is very helpful or seeks our well being.

Its written “KOI GURMUKH SAJJAN JE MILAI MEIN DASSAI PRABH GUNTAAS”

KOI signifies to me that probability of someone being a true guru is not very high but guru sahib says if you meet a true guru he will tell you about the GOD (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji startin gfrom mool mantir keeps telling you that don't try to define God completely, it is not possible. Once you develop faculties to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, you don't need any one. Along the way you can have sharing as part of learning. None of such sharing entails calling anyone a Guru and have them hold your hand to discovery. You can definitely respect people for their help but they are not a path to God or the door keepers to enter God's abode or merging with the God that is already inside of you and all around you.) “MEIN DASSAI PRABH GUNTAAS”

Guru sahib at some other place in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has mentioned that
“ avar kaaj tere kitae naa kaam, mil saadh sangat (congregation; that is 1+1=3!, the benefit of good company) bhaj keval naam”

Gurur sahib is askin us to meet a saadh (a learned man or teacher that can help but is not a Guru or wearing Kalgis, false personas, bhibuti, etc.,) or sant (What!) that’s why I asked AMBARSARIA JI that is Sikhism against saints????

He replied
“This is one of the essences of our Gurus teachings to tell us that God/Sachkhand is within each of us. You don't need a third person to find what is inside you.

So Gurbani in Shabad after Shabad helps with this self discovery if you put your resources to it. Only a "Pakhandi" can let you hitch a ride to Sachkhand/God. Analogy is you probably seen lot of Babey/Pundits/Clairvoyants telling you on TV how they can solve all your problems and bring you luck. How come they cannot pick a lottery number every time (I am sure it is simpler than finding God) but are too happy to put their hand in your pocket. This is "Gol Mol" (a thievery) business and nothing more nothing less”

AMBARSARIA ji was talking about realization within and not involving a third person . I agree that there are many false saints or gurus but there must be some true one (only truth is God) , one in millions that’s why guru sahib said “ਕੋਈਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਸਜਣੁਜੇਮਿਲੈਮੈਦਸੈਪ੍ਰਭੁਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ”. but U are not right in stating that you don’t need a third person (Intent is to understand the though which is that for example, I don't Radhaswami, Dhnadriawala, Nanaksaria leader, and any such. I can perhaps get greater benefit from talking to Prakash S. Bagga ji, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, Tejwant Singh ji, spnadmin ji, Aman Singh ji, Randip Singh ji, Souljyot ji, findingmyway ji, etc., that is learning), what you meant is you don’t need a guru & this is a statement directly opposite to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Not!) . Otherwise guru sahb would not state what I mentioned in the shabads above.
Guru nanak sahib would not clearly mention that “mein apna guru pooch dekhya” (I asked my God)

I’d also state that when guru nanak was here ,he was clearly against the rituals prevailing that time. SO I have to say that his guru must be a man. AND GURU SAHIB HAS SAID “”mein apna guru pooch dekhya””
Guru sahib says “pooch dekhya” not parh dekhya.
And the verse “GURU MAANYO GRANTH” is not in our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (sorry this is not structured so I don't understand what it adds to what you stated in previous paragraph/lines).

So I have made my point clear that you need to have a true guru (God) and follow (understand God through Gurbani) what he tells you (Sri Gur Granth Sahib ji is a teaching, once you learn you will know yourself and won't need to be told). This is the path of guru nanak and all the gurus (Believing in God and being one with evrything God created including oneself).

True guru will not tell you other stories (repetition already commented above), he might not benefit you from outside but he will from inside. TRUE guru (you are always in God's srovar you don't need baths and purification, it is for you to understand it.) is the true “AMRITSAR” where contaminated souls take bath and are purified , I can put a whole shabad from gurbani supporting this statement but it’ll increase the size of the post.
68 TEERATHS are in the feet of the true guru (literals will take you away from the God within and the God outside, please avoid if you can). TRUE guru will tell you about naam (naam is God, and Gurbani is a way to understand God. What is this naam business (I think Narankaria, Radhaswami, Namdharias , and other misguided feed such lines.) and not just AKHRI NAAM. I’ve always stated that by naam guru sahib never meant some written words , naam is a power which cannot be bound in words, which cannot be bound in a book (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji enables you to see God and God's omni-potence it is for you to fathom it for yourself. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does not put limit on the size of your understanding which can be limitless . NAAM SHABAD BAANI HUKAM are all used in the same context in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. TRUE GURU (one God, there is no adjective like TRUE needed) has been given a lot of importance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and also mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as I above mentioned, guru sahib says
“ਸਤਿਗੁਰਪੁਰਖੁਨਾਭੇਟਿਓਸੇਭਾਗਹੀਣਵਸਿਕਾਲ”
Purkh (man ) (good company) is used to signify the satguru or true guru (companions on a common journey starting from different places and ending in different places in time and location, not a bus driver taking the bus to wherever God is. Remember what needs to be discovered and understood is all around and within). I think we all have to search for a true guru (Not, you need to develop understanding of God). Don’t know about all but I have to search as mentioned by guru sahib in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

THESE THOUGHTS ARE WRITTEN WITH A VERY OPEN MINDSET AS ASKED BY SRI AMBARSARIYA JI> DO READ THESE WITH OPEN MINDSET. THIS IS NOTHING BUT WRITTEN IN Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Read with open mind and commented with open mind, so we all learn and share).

The answer to the first ques put forward has gotten so lengthy, it could have gotten more lengthy if I would give other examples (not needed as it is the biggest pitfall to seek what you want to prove through Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Object is to not translate but understand.) from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But I decide to put a halt (That is great) . I’ll answer other questions iun separate posts.

REGARDS & THANKS
***

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cjj-hzpjUw&feature=player_embedded#at=126