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Islam Quran - To All Sikh Students

kilemba

SPNer
Mar 17, 2008
24
2
It is unfortunate that we try to understand the Koran while we leave the SGGS . I cannot begin to read a book that does not allow me to grow as an individual but make one methodical and mechanical in action and deed. Ask anyone who claims to read the Koran what they have understood.
I believe that the SGGS should be our guide and consience .
 

lionsingh

SPNer
Nov 8, 2010
105
67
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ke fateh

I agree, one should read and try to understand other religious books. And surly one comes across many useful things. I feel every Sikh should have knowledge about other religions. A Sikh who tries to understand Guru Granth Sahib Jee and has read about other faiths finds himself truly blessed. If you forget about the adulterations that have cropped into us and if you stick to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, you'll feel that God has been too kind on you for giving you birth as a Sikh.

What I feel (if you permit me to say, I may be wrong) there cannot be many 'Religions'. Truth cannot be in multiple. It has to be One. Yes there may be many 'Faiths', many ‘Paths’.

Only Guru Granth Sahib Jee makes you realize that One Religion.

Then if we are learners ...we should read and learn.....Do I have the freedom to post Copy & Paste....SPN is a Philosohical site...but have already had warning for expressing an opinion.

SOME BELIEVE OTHERWISE

Quotes from the Qur'an and Hadith
on war, violence, infidels, and unbelievers

The terrorist element in Islam may not be shared by most Muslims but it cannot be denied it is a part of Islam and prevalent in countries that have an Islamic government. The radical fundamentalists cannot be ignored or denied as part of this religion, which influence becomes just as much social and political as it is religious. Certainly it is true that not all Muslims are terrorists, however the majority of Terrorists are Muslim.

WHERE IN THE WORLD IS A FREE ISLAMIC COUNTRY THAT ALLOWS THOUGHT & FREEDOM OF WORSHIP ?

To compare Christianity or any other religion is like apples and oranges. As Christians we do not practice the Old Testament but the teachings of the New Testament, by Christ and the apostles. so any arguments to try and castigate Christians for doing the same fail miserably.

Recently the Spokesman for the Taliban said, “Those youths who did what they did destroyed America with their airplanes they’ve done a good deed.” He went on to say “THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF YOUTH WHO LOOK FORWARD TO DEATH LIKE THE AMERICANS LOOK FORWARD TO LIVING.”
In the book of Proverbs the God that they say they obey says, “all those who love death hate me.” Just a interesting observation, how do the leaders get his followers to do what he will not.

Surah 2:256 “Let there be no compulsion in Religion.” This would be a rational position if practiced as a standard, however Muslims disallow the Bible (as well as other books of religion) in their countries and do not give people a choice. They do not want to engage in dialogue or allow freedom of choice when they are in control. To present the Bibles Gospel is tantamount to aggression, so one is labeled an infidel, and the use of force can be used to restrain him. The rest of this verse says “Truth stands out Clear from Error: whoever Rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped, the most trustworthy Hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth And knoweth all things.” This verse seems to imply that those who embrace Islam willingly are accepted.

Why is it so hard for Muslim to become a Christian or join with another religion? Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57) This command is practiced in almost all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

While the Qur’an says not to begin with hostilities, and Allah does not love the aggressor, it is not acceptable when Islam is refused. For it teaches not to turn away and bless but “the one who attacks you, you attack him in like manner...whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong, there is no way (blame) against them.”

Sura 26:227 “Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of God, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!”

They present certain verses and ignore others verses that have quite a different tone such as 3:85 “Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).

Muslim’s make every effort to suppress any who claim to follow the Bible. They say they believe the Bible but will not allow the Bible to be taught to Muslims. They cannot allow anyone who believes the Bible the right to declare their belief as they do. Their persecution of Bible believers shows their lack of trust in their own religion to show any truth. If they trust the power of the Qur'an, why would they rely on physical force and intimidation. However they will say,“Therefore grant a delay to the Unbelievers: Give respite to them gently (for awhile).” Sura 86:17
“And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.” [Soorah an-Nisaa'4:75]

What I have seen on the news is that we cannot understand the Quran, it's in Arabic and we (those who do not believe) are considered illiterate, we are feeble in spiritual understanding. So words that we read in English do not mean the same in Arabic. Lets examine this argument: The translation is by Muslim scholars who speak Arabic and know the meaning, yet for some reason they don’t translate it accurately in the English! One only needs to read the Hadiths to know what is meant by the verses.
Another translation of the preceding verse is “Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.”

Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calendar). Say, “fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.” (Soorah an-Nisaa 4:75)

The Jews are to be eliminated

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.
There is a consistency in the statements in Qur'an about the Jews, Christians, unbelievers, infidels, polytheists, only a few statements are favorable. But the direct approach of whom Mohammed meant is clear from his theme of elimination and destiny for punishment.

Sura3 3:64: “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers (whom he defined as Christians in the 5th surah “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.) and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!’”

What does The true God say about cursing his people? Read Gen.12:3
Sura72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

“What, do you desire to guide him whom God has led astray? Whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way [of salvation]. They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as a friend or helper. (Arberry, Interpreted p.113)

Hadith, the body of traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu Hurayah) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews. (Sahih of Muslim, quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al Quran by Ali Akbar, Bismi Publishers 1992, p.44)
Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Sura 9:5)
4:101 “When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.” 4:102 “For the Unbelievers, Allah has prepared a humiliating punishment.”

8:19 “(O Unbelievers!) if ye prayed for victory and judgment, now hath the judgment come to you: if ye desist (from wrong), it will be best for you: if ye return (to the attack), so shall We. Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they (were multiplied: for verily God is with those who believe!”

8:59-60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”

Another translation makes this plain - “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”
9.123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you”

9.73 “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”

Surah 2, Contains the subject of war numerous times (Jihad). It is approved to be the solution to aggression when necessary. The following paragraphs are out of the Qur’an. (The Qur’an was written in Arabic, but translated in English by those who are Muslim and speak Arabic.)

“War is prescribed to you: but from this ye are averse.” (Sura 2:212).

“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)

Sura 2:187-189 “And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked.”

2:190-292 “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.”

2:193 “And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and let there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.”

2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.”

2:244 “Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.”
Many of these quotes should be self-evident what the meaning is. Of course they will be some that say that what they mean is not what they read like. Muslim clerics and their apologists are saying “the command to kill non-Muslims is not for today” it was only for a certain time. Where in the Qur’an does it say this? It does not say or teach the commands to kill the “infidels”, “unbelievers” “Jews” and “Christians” was only for a previous time. ” Nowhere. why should we accept this rhetoric? There is proof in the Qur'an that it is actually to continue and increase.

No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will leave the faith) and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.” (Bukhari volume 9, no.64)

One of their Hadiths states about their own: Narrated Ikrima: The statement of Allah’s Apostle (Muhammad), “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” (Hadith 9:45; 84.2.57.)

Sura 9:29-33 “Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled.”

Sura 8:15 “O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers preparing for battle do not turn your backs to them. [Anyone who does] shall incur the wrath of God, and Hell shall be his home,- an evil dwelling (indeed)!”

Sura 8:57 “So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson.”

Sura 8:65 “O Messenger! Rouse the Believers among you to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish two thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are people without understanding.” In other words those who believe not in Allah are not equal to those who do.”

Sura 8:67 “It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

Sura 6:157 “Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth God's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.” So if you are not a Muslim, how do you think this affects you.

Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

“Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you and you shall not be treated unjustly.”

“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).

Sura 9:39 “If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put others in your place”

9:52“…Allah will send His punishment from Himself or by our hands.”
The Qur’an teaches: Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home . . . The unbelievers are your sworn enemies . . . Seek out your enemies relentlessly . . . . You shall not plead for traitors . . . Allah does not love the treacherous or the sinful. (Dawood, Koran, pp. 367-68.)
“. . . kill the pagans wherever you may find them . . .”
Sura 4:74: “Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great value.”
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”
Sura 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.” Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Surah 9:14 at-Taubah 9:14)
Sura 9:78-83 “Know they not that God doth know their secret (thoughts) and their secret counsels, and that God knoweth well all things unseen? Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity, as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labor, and throw ridicule on them, God will throw back their ridicule on them: and they shall have a grievous penalty. 80 Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, God will not forgive them: because they have rejected God and His apostle; and God guideth not those who are perversely rebellious. Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the apostle of God: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of God: they said, “Go not forth in the heat. Say, “The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat.” If only they could understand! Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do. If, then, God bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: “Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind.”
Sura 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”
Sura 9:123: “Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him.” Hey neighbor how do you feel about this?
Infidels are those who worship any other but Allah. Yet I have heard Muslims claim Allah is the same God of the Old Testament. If so why are not the Jews and Christians accepted? The answer is clear, because they reject their apostle.
Sura 9:29-33: “Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, 'Ezra (Ozair) is a son of God'; and the Christians say, 'The Messiah is a son of God'. Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the sayings of the Infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided!..He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it.”
Mohammed said: “No Muslim should be killed for killing a ***** (infidel).”(Hadith vol. 9:50) This means a non- Muslim.
Sura 15:66: “And We made known this decree to him, that the last remnants of those (sinners) should be cut off by the morning.”
Instead of conversion by force, physically or otherwise, Christ said that His disciples did not fight because His kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36). Those who fight love this present world and the Bible says the love of the Father is not in them. Indeed, He told His disciples, “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you” (Mt 5:44). I have nothing similar to this in the Qur'an yet it the teachings of Christ are supposed to be in it.
What about peace treaties and appeasement with Islamic forces?
In the Qur’an, Sura 8:58: “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah).Surely they cannot escape.”​

Sura 9:3: “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”​

4:90 “For those who join a group between you and whom there is a treaty, or (those who become) weary of fighting you, had Allah had willed, He could have given
them power over you, and they would have fought you. Therefore if they withdraw and wage not war, and send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah has not given you a way (to war) against them.” [The purpose of terror is to cause people to become so “weary of fighting” they surrender.]​

What does this mean? In another translation 4:90 “If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”​
Sura22:18 “Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills.v:19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.v:20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.v:21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.v:22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!”
Sura 47:4 “Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them… He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, - He will never let their deeds be lost.” Another English translation says, “When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.”
Sura 59:2 “It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering of the forces. Little did you think that they would get out: and they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the wrath of Allah came to them from quarters from which they had little expected it, and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their own dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers.”
Sura 59:4,5 “That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger: and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in punishment. Whether you cut down O you Muslims the tender palm-trees, or if you left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of Allah, and in order that He might cover with shame the rebellious transgressors.”
Sura 59:14 “They will not fight you even together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting spirit amongst themselves: you would think they are united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.”
Sura 61:4 “Verily God loveth those who, as though they were a solid wall, do battle for his cause in serried lines!”
Surah 61 encourages the Muslims to give their wealth for their cause, and if necessary their lives for the cause of Islam. It is passages like this that advocate war. Sura 61:9-11 “Fain would they put out the light of God with their mouths! but though the Infidels hate it, God will perfect his light. He it is who sent his apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that, though they hate it who join other gods with God, He may make it victorious over every other religion.” O ye who believe! shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in God and His Apostle, and that ye strive (Jihad) (your utmost) in the Cause of God, with your property and your persons: that will be best for you, if ye but knew!
Sura 69:44-48 “And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath). But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing.”
Sura 66:9: “O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!” Another translation says, “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate”
Sura 8:39-40: “Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.” Another translation is 8.39 “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.”
Sura 9:5: “And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful.”
This is but a small sampling of the hatred and violence that is included in this book that can be used by those of this religion. This book is the foundation upon which this religion is founded. This begins to explain the motivation and the action we see by those who put these sayings into practice. Islam is not based on the individual opinion of Muslims, but the Qur’an. So why is it I’m able to find what others say is not there?
What are there expectations? Do they want to live in peace with others and allow people the freedom to choose? There are some who believe in peace and there are numerous verses that speak of not killing or harming others, even animals. But Militant / fundamentalist Islam's goal, is able to use passages in the Qur’an for their goal of bringing all mankind into submission (“Islam”). And if not then the other option is to kill all “infidels”, unbelievers if necessary (these are the unbelievers in Allah and Muhammad his prophet, not unbelievers in God (Sura 2:190-192;4:76; 5:33; 9:5, 29,41; 47:4).
Islam in obedience to the Qur’an is the driving force for most of the terrorism today we are seeing today. If you don't believe this, check who the majority of people are that are doing the terrorist acts throughout the world.
The truth is that the only sure way to paradise for a Muslim, to die in a Jihad. Sura 9:111 “God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.” “And if you are slain, or die in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.” (Surah 3:157 Al-Imran 3:157)
Contrary to other religions that offer heaven by good works and Christianity that offers it for free to those who believe and follow Jesus Christ, a obedient Muslim can not be sure of his hereafter without it. Muslims are offered a palace; in it are 72 mansions with 72 homes with 72 sheets on 72 beds with 72 virgins that never lose their virginity. Mohammed said, “The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise (if he is killed).” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:35.) “They [true believers] will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches” (Sura 37:48). This gives us insight into their denial of this life and being rewarded in the next. The promise of heaven to those who die in battle for the cause of Allah is quite a promise.
Sura 48:27-28 “Truly did God fulfil the vision for His Apostle: ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if God wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory. It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is God for a Witness.” (Maulama Mohammed Ali 1917 translation says of this verse-- this prophecy of the prevalence of Islam over all other religions, is a prophecy which extends into the distant future while Arabia saw its fulfillment in the lifetime of the holy prophet the prevalence of Islam does not however mean the political supremacy of it its adherents at all times. Nor does the prophecy signify that other religions would at any time entirely disappear. It only indicates that the superiority of the religion of Islam over all other religions will at last be established. And Islam will be the religion of the majority of the nations of the earth. No other Scripture prophesies the triumph of the religion it preaches in unmistakable terms.)
Is this good news, apparently for some it is.

To be fair the Crusades and the Inquisition were also religious wars, but they were not sanctioned by the Bible or Jesus. No Scripture was used to promote this. The crusaders acted under the name of Christian but they could not validate their actions from the Bible or by the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. It was by a Church gone drunk with power and to bring others under its influence. Christian separation is always needed to discern between what is God's and what is Caesar's. The fact is the true Church started by Jesus was martyred throughout the centuries by Islam and even by some who called themselves the Church.

What I have also heard is that these terrorist are no different than those who claimed to be Christian. Such as Jim Jones or David Koresh. This comparison fails in several ways. 1st- Jim Jones never used the Bible to commit his suicides and he had the people do suicides willingly on themselves because they were brainwashed, they did not kill others outside their group in the name of God.

2nd- Koresh already came from the cultic teachings of the 7th day Adventist church, so he was removed from Christianity. He too did not have his people kill others, but convinced them to follow him to their own deaths. Besides if we look at how many of these people are found in Christianity in comparison to Islam it is very little.
So these are poor comparisons to those who kill and enslave others in the name of God throughout the world and any other religion.

Let those who are for peace speak louder than those who want to kill.
 
Oct 29, 2010
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Dear Lionsingh,
I thank you for taking time to put this forward - I consider this very useful and I find some of the things are the same as any good person would believe in - but it is evident that it is meant for mainly 'unthinking masses' from the forceful language used. I also thank S|kH who I believe started the subject. I encourage you to keep doing till we have brought out all the facts -

I must admit when I am angry with my children I tend to use this type of language.
I always think that we can open out the Quran, Bible and other religious documents and discuss them - why do we not do the same to Granth Sahib? It is a way of getting the full understanding.
Before I offer any comments I could not read all your document - there is too much take in but once I got the general gist I thought it is worth discussing a few things that I can understand and contribute.
Things need to be brief and simple for keeping peoples' attention (I cannot keep all these things in mind) and I wonder if our understanding of the Sikhism has gone farther than our grasp because there is too much information. If we take any part of a scripture I would think all people may agree but it needs to be put into context to hit the hearts of our family members.
Some differences between the Sikh and Islam teachings:
Islam is a 'dictatorial' religion whereas Sikhism is more 'democratic'.
Islam says do not question 'truth' Sikhism says question truth
Islam says kill those who do not believe Sikhs say teach those who do not know the TRUTH
Islam makes blanket statements about a group of people like elliminate Jews and do not take Christians for friends - what would they do after they kill all those and then there will be all islamists - they will disagree with eachother and kill like sunis and shia then they will end up killing their family members - as that furthering humanity? You a a Hedonist would be a hypocrit to accept that!
Islam bullies people into religion Sikhs present information for people to choose and then expects them to be TRUE
Islam (and Christanity) conquer lands and Sikhism defends its land and those who are also TRUE

Specifics

Sura 8:65 says 20 believers can vanquish 200 unbelievers - Baba Deep Singh with 5000 (or was it 2000) threw out 20,000 bullies from Harminder Sahib grounds - so I believe that however the cause has to be right.
Sura 9:39 'If you do not fight he will punish you severely and put others in your place' - absolutly right - now take this in context of TRUTH. At work if there is a better employee than you you will punished by being replaced by another even in family leadership and so on.
Sura:9:123 'Believers wage war against such infedels as are you neighbours let them find you rigorus and know that god is with those who fear him - Hey neighbour how do you feel about that?' Correct these infidels are the ones who are today cutting the roots of Sikhism from inside - I am sure all would agree with this statement of Qoran.
"....72 virgins that never lose their virginity" - so what the devil did these guys do or get or is that telling you - 'islam is lieing and using you to do its dirty deeds"!!
"And Islam will be the religion of the majority of the nations of the earth. No other Scripture prophesies the triumph of the religion it preaches in unmistakable terms.)
Is this good news, apparently for some it is
"
A religion that is selectively blind to truth will mushroom on false foundation and eventually collapse on itself. Sikhs be aware of this no religion is bigger than the WAHEGURU ALLAH LORD - however our job is to listen to HIM, find the TRUTH and practice it (all Nanaks) and Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed all his family, himself for that - please tell me which other religion did that!!!
I conclusion may be you want to read "Islam and Terrorism" by Mark A Gabriel - that will open your eyes to the corruption, interpretation and hypocracy of a religion which also produced "SUFIS" who have contributed to Sikhism - but let us not be complacent either.
Bhul Chuck Maaf karni
 
Oct 29, 2010
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Firstly, you have not posted the link from where you copy-pasted this stuff and more importantly have you read Quran yourself?

:eek:rangesingh:
Sir,
I have not read Qoran nor Granth Sahib but from the information shared we tend to find more about other religions than Sikhism which is unfortunate.
I have briefly replied to this comment but the original text has smothered the reply ad I do not think people will be bothered to look for that because of the huge text camaflouges it!
Is there a way to remove it or can you possibly edit it out?
Thanks
 
Oct 29, 2010
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Dear eropa234
I hear your point of view. Note that Islam ruled Spain for 700 years and contributed significantly - it or it and Mughals contributed to Punjab and India too - they brought us into nationhood - I am sure it was not their intention but fairness and Truth prevailed and took them into their rightful place.
In the case of Islam in Spain when the leaders became complacent or tired (I do not know for sure) they were hammered out - now there is no sign of them there either.
All these GOOD things happen by deeds rather than words.
 
Oct 29, 2010
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Do you not find that because some one has brought this out we can discuss it - if we do not open the issues we end up in slander that is in the news - you do not know what end to get hold of and what to question or answer.

Have Guru Gobind Singh's Sikhs become so scared to find the truth - what can we protect if we do not know what the untruth that is tarnishing us?
 
Oct 29, 2010
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Sir,

You are pssionate about something - I understand some of your points and agree with them too.

I am also passionate to see Guru Gobind Singh's Sikhs express themselves and contribute. I do not appreciate slander and when the blogs get too big it is difficult to know which are the pearls and which the stones even if you have time to read all.

You will agree that most religions are there to help the communities and they have time and place. If they are not aired they rust and disappear. Let us pick one point at a time and give oportunity for the democratic religon to answer and the true followers to comment.

How do you think we can get out of this rut and move forward?
 

jasi

SPNer
Apr 29, 2005
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SS AKAL JI.

Fundamentals teaching by all Prophets/messengers/Gurus are different than what people practices by organizing their religions to look better than others by applying man's own rules to dominate others or what suit to some individuals self interest.

In many cases uses forces to convert the weaker or underprivileged by dictatorial rules.

Sikhism is a open book for all religion to follow the truth under ONE umbrella of one GOD.


Jaspi



Jaspi
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
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alikhan0 ji

I am taking the more low-key road on your last post. It was deleted because you are advertising a link (in fact 2 links) to learn about the Quran. Please do not do this again. Anyone who would like to learn about the Quran can contact you by pm. SPN is not here to provide a free platform for adherents other religions to gain students or new adherents.

No proselytizing! If it happens again, it will be considered spam. Thank you
 

Harkiran Kaur

Leader

Writer
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Jul 21, 2012
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To the OP: I have read some of the Quran, because throughout my life I have studied comparatively pretty much all the Worlds religions... I can't agree with you because of several conclusions I came to long ago:

1) While Islam is submission to God, it is submission on different levels for different people. Women for example are seen as lower than men, must be submissive to men physically, and even spiritually are seen as less than men. There is a passage int he Quran I remember reading which was a quite from Muhammad (I cant find the link again) which said that he had seen Hell and that the vast majority of it's inhabitants are women. That pretty much says it all.

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Quran 4:34

edit: here's the passage about women in Hell:
“Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

2) No other Holy book instructs so much violence on its adherents! Jihad is only one example. Killing non believers who will not convert under force. Men are also allowed, sanctioned by the Quran, to beat their wives if they disobey.

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."


Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

It even criticizes PEACEFUL Muslims!!!

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"


I just can't condone reading anything that is so filled with violence and mysogyny, which are against the principles of equality and ONEness and peace in the Sikh faith. And don't ever forget that Sikhs have died, rather than give up their faith and become Muslim!!!!
 
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There is no harm in reading and listening to any scriptures
available.
But one thing is very important to bear in mind that whatever is being
read or listened should be put to the test of Gurbaanee views and for this it is imperetive to be first well informed about the teachings from SGGS

I have personally listened to many scholars from Hindu as well as Islamic
fields and I did learn a lot.

Prakash.s.Bagga
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,762
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There is no harm in reading and listening to any scriptures
available.
But one thing is very important to bear in mind that whatever is being
read or listened should be put to the test of Gurbaanee views and for this it is imperetive to be first well informed about the teachings from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

I have personally listened to many scholars from Hindu as well as Islamic
fields and I did learn a lot.

Prakash.s.Bagga
I am not a great scruptures man myself, but I absolutely agree with you Baggaji that once one has the feel and essence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then anything can be used as a learning tool, be it a cowboy western, a heavy metal song, a soap opera, or peoples conversation.

Even watching a colony of ants can you illustrate concepts of Bani in real life, see that ant over there, the dead one, what did it achieve, was its life in vain, did it contribute to the overal success of the colony, did it use its life for some use, did it die self serving.

I quote Hesse,
This is the art of life. You may yourself as an artist develop the game of your life and lend it animation. You may complicate and enrich it as you please. It lies in your hands.
I would suggest some religions are more guilty of this than others, over complicated, over enriched, over animated......Hubris Easy to taunt, easy to trick, I guess even our own, even though ironically, it is probably the main facet that Guru Nanakji wished to lose
 
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ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਆਖਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਸਚਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਕਿਆ ਉਪਦੇਸੀਐ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 150}
Harry ji,
I appreciate your views. Your approach is very pragmatic.
Sikhs have received a great treasure of knowledge thru SGGS ji
and I find there is no such scripture which is solely based on a
Single word GuROO and its NAAM.

The Quote from Gurbanee is itself clear.

Prakash.s.Bagga
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,762
8,156
50
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਆਖਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਸਚਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਕਿਆ ਉਪਦੇਸੀਐ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 150}
Harry ji,
I appreciate your views. Your approach is very pragmatic.
Sikhs have received a great treasure of knowledge thru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
and I find there is no such scripture which is solely based on a
Single word GuROO and its NAAM.

The Quote from Gurbanee is itself clear.

Prakash.s.Bagga
Baggaji,

some might say too pragmatic....

it is a shame that the great religions of the day are now known by only the outer wrapper, if it looks good, it must taste good seems the maxim, and even this has penetrated Sikhism, it can take many years of study and devotion to climb up the religious ladder, in my view, Sikhism is one of the few religions where the very essence can be mastered in a single day, purely through attitude and action
 

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