Near Death Experiences: Reality, Dreams Or Other | Page 2 | Sikh Philosophy Network
  • Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Near Death Experiences: Reality, Dreams Or Other

Do you believe Near Death experiences are: and why?

  • People simply describing dreams in delirious states.

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • Something very different and possibly unexplained new knowledge.

    Votes: 7 46.7%
  • I do not know.

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • It is all made up hype.

    Votes: 1 6.7%

  • Total voters
    15

Searching

SPNer
Aug 8, 2011
146
218
Sherdil ji
What your professor told you is just a hypothesis which has been proposed in the past by doctors working on NDE. But this no way explains how people came to life after being pronounced as dead.
 

Searching

SPNer
Aug 8, 2011
146
218
There is a standard protocol to confirm clinical death. I would suggest you Google about NDE and read more. There are many documented cases. I am not saying NDE proves the presence of life after death. But it is something that raises many questions and has not been explained by scientists. Why would every dieing person have a similar dream?
There some hypothesis but no solid proof of what it is. Therefore only logical position for a theist would be being skeptical.
As far as reversing death goes that too is nothing short of a miracle as death is an irreversible thing. Or the wailing aunt would never let the funeral take place and wait for the nephew to resurrect.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,762
8,156
50
How does "NDE" makes a person better or worse?

How does it affect one's life?
well it makes them take the entire focus off their life, their goals, their aspirations, their hopes, and replaces it with five minutes of tripping the light fantastic!

In my misspent youth, one of the things I never tried was heroin, why? because everyone I spoke who had taken heroin described it as the best most beautiful feeling in the world, once you had tried heroin, life was never the same, you experienced things, feelings, that made real life seem boring and staid.

How can anyone focus on this life when they feel they have had a NDE that shows them what amounts to heaven?

I use the drugs analogy with certain practices quite often, it is because drugs are addictive, the feeling they give you is addictive, and I personally feel that once you tease yourself with glimpses of heaven, either through meditation, out of body experiences, or near death experiences, all you are doing is feeding that addiction, at the cost of your life, and those around you,

just my own view
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,762
8,156
50
Only if these frogs could talk ;)


Sat Sri Akal
I saw this earlier, but being busy with a soldering iron, thought I would look at it later, and indeed, I just have.

Its been a hard day, again, I started at 6, its now 9.30, and its like this every day, 7 days a week!
Around this time, I am normally quite jaded, quite sarcastic, but I have to say, that video put a smile on my face, I smiled, a warm proper smile, for the first time in a long time, I don't know whether NDE's exist or not, but you have to accept, Creation is beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

It does not make sense to me, unless the frogs are entering some sort of super hibernation, I will google this in the morning.

oh they can talk, we just can't understand them!
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,380
5,678
How does "NDE" makes a person better or worse?

How does it affect one's life?

Tejwant Singh ji say something or the frog will start croaking ;). Assuming frogs have a brain, I am sure they can answer this question so well! But unfortunately, we are too closed minded a species to hear or think. Ask a frog in Arizona and I am sure he/she will not believe this video ;). Such a frog will perhaps pose questions similar to yours and others ;) and mine.

All experiences, whenever these happen in time, have consequences, reasons and possible explanations. These may not relate to human terms or understanding. Say one has a near death experience, do you believe it could possibly shed some light on how and what we are and help with various aspects of living and helping! Before you ask another question, I would appreciate to hear from you how you see NDE impacting us if it were possibly for real? Surely the frogs go through it not knowing if they will ever be unfrozen again! Perhaps we will discover a lot of frozen life all over the Universe, near and far.

Sikhism teaches us an open mind and that is the strength one should never lose. I am not suggesting we don't question or start believing with eyes closed. Not suggesting either to believe everything without knowing as much as we possibly can explore.

Sat Sri Akal
 
Last edited:

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
550
61
London UK
People

I might be barking up the wrong tree here, but as an off the cuff observation, NDE n Sikh Philosophy, how does Sikh come into this ? Of course, it has a religious ring to it, but in terms of debate n discussion what exactly is the correlation and how is the subject matter entertained within Sikhism?

Brother H said something classic over another thread:
"... well the SGGS is,... although I am still at a loss to understand why you cannot seem to understand that applying Islamic thought to Sikh philosophy is like using apples in a recipe instead of oranges, and you keep complaining you cannot find the orange peel on the apple, why? because it is not there. You remind me of the blind man, in the dark room, trying to kick the black dog, that just isn't there."
Forgive me, I had to ask and, am on my way to a 10:30 meeting; perhaps later I might write up my train of thought, until then -

Thank you !
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Harkiran Kaur

Leader

Writer
SPNer
Jul 21, 2012
1,393
1,909
Quoted from my Own book on these phenomenon (keep in mind OBEs and NDEs are essentially similar / possibly the same experience, just initiated by different means). I'm the author of the below, and it covers some of the physiological theories behind OBEs/NDEs and my counter to some of them. There is also a great article by a Lawyer called a Lawyer's Argument for the afterlife which gets into much of the same... including an experiment by Dutch scientists which seems to prove that something exists beyond physical death and can be measured.


Theories On The Out-Of-Body Experience

Common OBE theories can be divided into two groups... those that

believe something leaves the physical body during an OBE, and those

that believe nothing leaves the physical body and that the OBE is

purely physiological in nature. Here are some of the more common

theories:

The Consciousness Separates And Leaves The Physical Body -

To believe in this theory, we need to look at consciousness as

separate from the physical brain. Consciousness controls the brain

but is not a product of it. We all know that fields can exist around a

physical object like a magnet, even though we can not easily see

them. Consciousness can be thought of a field that extends far past

the physical brain, and uses the physical brain to interact with the

physical world.

Quantum physics theories actually allow for this possible explanation.

If consciousness exists separate from the brain, then it must be able

to leave the physical brain for periods of time. Quantum mechanics

allows for multiple dimensions, accounting where consciousness

might travel during an OBE.

We do not know all that there is to know with our current scientific

knowledge, and I believe that quantum physics is only beginning to

open the door to understanding phenomena like out-of-body

experiences. I believe that ultimately, it will be able to be proven by

science. We have just not gotten there yet.

Most major religions believe in a multidimensional universe, or that

this physical life is only one step our existence as spiritual beings.

Therefore, most people on the planet already believe in a life after

death of some sort. And if the belief of a world beyond the physical

exists in so many minds, then it should not be much of a step further

to believe that we can access the realms beyond this one while still in

this life, through meditation and prayer.

---

Nothing Leaves The Physical Body;

Physiological Theories For OBEs:

I have a friend who is currently studying for his specialty in neurology

(a self proclaimed skeptic), and he was able to explain to me some of

the medical theories behind OBEs.


The OBE Is A Result Of Dissociation / Dislocation -

Dissociative phenomena are experienced as a disruption of the

normally integrated functions of memory, identity perception and

consciousness. This results in a feeling of separateness and in some

cases people reported seeing their physical body from a different

perspective. Dissociation and/or dislocation usually happen as a result

of a traumatic event, stress, or sleep deprivation. It is also linked to

Multiple Personality Disorder.

Dissociation may account for some OBE-like phenomena that happen

from an awake state, but do not explain those instances where an

OBE happened to patients during general anesthesia, or NDEs (Near

Death Experiences) where the person is clinically dead, for all intents

and purposes unconscious and unable to consciously experience the

dissociative phenomena.


Some neurologists would argue that the act of the brain dying, can

stimulate certain parts of the brain, and this may account for the

imagery.



The OBE Is Just A Dream -

The majority of OBEs happen spontaneously from within a sleep

state. This suggests that OBEs could really be vivid dreams or dreams

where one has become aware, called Lucid Dreaming, which will be

covered later in this book.

Evidence from experiments by Charles Tart in the 1960’s, have

shown that OBEs do not occur within a discrete measurable state,

and instead can happen in a variety of different states. Subjects that

successfully projected out-of-body while hooked up to an EEG

(electroencephalogram, where electrodes placed on the head can

measure brainwave activity) in Tart’s laboratory were shown to have

had their experience during periods of deep relaxation, heightened

awareness, but not exclusively during REM (Rapid Eye Movement)

sleep, which is when most dreams occur.

Also of note, are the OBEs that people have reported while being

under general anesthesia, and seeing the surgeon working on them as

they floated above the operating table. General anesthesia is known

to suppress REM sleep.

Dreams are commonly believed to be Astral Projections, where we

are not aware that we are projecting. Tart’s experiments only

conclude that an OBE can occur in many states. That does not mean

that REM can not be one of those states. It does however suggest

that not all OBEs occur during a state where we are dreaming.



The OBE Is A Hypnapompic/Hypnagogic Hallucination -

Some people with a sleep disorder such as narcolepsy, sometimes

experience vivid imagery just as they are falling asleep or upon

waking. Another symptom of narcolepsy is sleep paralysis, where the

person wakes up unable to move for a brief period. These symptoms

are caused by elements of REM sleep intruding on the waking state.

However, people who do not have narcolepsy can also experience

both sleep paralysis and hypnagogic or hypnapompic hallucinations.

It has been suggested that OBEs could just be vivid imagery from

these hallucinations.

This theory could explain some of the OBE experiences, but since

Tart found that REM sleep does not necessarily have anything to do

with OBEs, and the fact that OBEs have occurred while people have

been under general anesthesia when they are most definitely not

waking up and experiencing hallucinations, it can not account for all

of the OBE type phenomena.

Also of note, is that with hypnapomic and hypnagogic hallucinations,

the imagery can be very different from person to person and very

dream-like in quality. Common images are vague shapes and

shadows that may already be in the room but are changed in the

mind of person having the hallucination to resemble something else.

I find it hard to believe that an OBE could be a hallucination because

for everyone who experiences it, the circumstances are exactly the

same, except for the location where they are projecting. The sounds

and feelings experienced in an OBE do not seem to change much

between individuals. And Instead of having dreamlike imagery, an

OBE seems to fall on the opposite side of the spectrum, almost being

too real to be a fantasy created by the mind.

Sleep paralysis does play a role however, and is related to OBEs.

Many people report that they were in sleep paralysis immediately

prior to an OBE. It is from the paralysis state that the required

vibrations seem to develop. All though not all people report having

sleep paralysis episodes before their OBEs, it may just be that they

were unaware of the paralysis. Deep relaxation is definitely

necessary to induce an OBE, so maybe the complete body paralysis

(which is relaxation at its utmost) allows an OBE to happen more

easily.

I have had numerous OBEs occur in conjunction with sleep paralysis

episodes, where I would wake up unable to move anything but my

eyes, and then immediately feel strong vibrations and hear rushing

sounds in my ears. I think that when someone is in sleep paralysis,

they may already be half way out-of-body.



The Angular Gyrus, and Epilepsy –

As described by CNN news on 19 September 2002, Neurology

researchers in Switzerland reported that during a procedure for

epilepsy, a patient told them she had floated above her own body and

was watching herself. This happened when a particular part of the

brain called the angular gyrus, in the right cortex, was stimulated by

an electrode… and it happened every time the angular gyrus was

stimulated.

The explanation is that OBEs could be caused by a misfiring of

certain parts of the brain while under stress. The angular gyrus is

thought to have a role in how the brain analyzes sensory information.

Of course, certain parts of the brain may indeed play a role in OBEs.

I have no doubts that something physiological needs to happen to

induce the consciousness to separate, and that maybe the angular

gyrus is part of the equation. Where our consciousness goes when it

separates, the scientists can not account for! In all the years of

neuroscience, they have yet to be able to pinpoint the exact point of

consciousness in our brains!
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,639
Harry brother thanks for your reply. Sorry to hear about your heart situation and eat well brother and exercise more. I keep telling the same to myself too.

In terms of the thread topic it is just a curiosity type of topic and not substantially serious. As Sikhs we should always be open to learning whether through our own experiences or efforts or those of others. I am just conjecturing here that at the time of near death brain calls in all the directors and managers of the company (body) to a meeting. The autonomous regions like the heart and lungs also report to the honcho, brain. So what occurs at this juncture perhaps is fascinating as probably the brain tells all the interface managers and operational manager like the vision department, the hearing department, all five of them to shut up. So the question is who takes notes and are these notes termed near death experiences. My conjecture would be that these are if you live to tell and live and remember the crazy goings on in this come to dada/Jessus moment. There is far too much unknown about us and much to know if you want to. So I welcome others thoughts and experiences if any in this regard. I have not had a near death experience yet. If I do and am capable of telling afterwards, I will. If other have and can tell it will be fascinating. It should be unabridged and unfettered and without any fear as to how Harry ji or Tejwant Singh ji or others are going to rip it apart.

So folks share up if you had experiences, had come to know first hand of others and don't be scared.

Sat Sri Akal.
Have never had a NDE due to an accident or health issue...

found myself many years ago floating in my bedroom once in the middle of the night...then hovered back down...tingles all over...eyelids felt like they just opened again and i lay there wondering what the heck the just happened...obviously wasn't my physical body floating up there....i think :)

being dead whilst yet alive...the phrase comes up quite often in Gurbani i think...

many things happen during Simran that would suggest me (consciosness) is no longer attached to my physical body...is that an NDE? to me it tells me, i am more than my physical body and will continue to be when it stops operating...
 
Last edited:

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,380
5,678
<snip off topic - AK>

The issue is not to prove or postulate whether near death experiences exist. We experience every moment in our lives including when we are near death. The thread topic is to dialog or converse if there is any uniqueness, special significance or otherwise a special or ordinary character to NDEs. I conjecture without proof that there may be a special significance to NDEs as observed by some people,not all. Are such people on SPN and are still living to tell? Perhaps not. But the topic stands as such.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,639
<snip off topic - AK>

Now going back to the thread topic. The issue is not to prove or postulate whether near death experiences exist. We experience every moment in our lives including when we are near death. The thread topic is to dialog or converse if there is any uniqueness, special significance or otherwise a special or ordinary character to NDEs. I conjecture without proof that there may be a special significance to NDEs as observed by some people,not all. Are such people on SPN and are still living to tell? Perhaps not. But the topic stands as such.

Sat Sri Akal.
i would link NDE to OBE - OBE's are pretty dam real i would say, whether the event is actually leaving the Body or a shift in Dyaan of individual consciousness to other dimensions...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
550
61
London UK
Good evening All

What's missing from the above dialectical reasoning is the character and concept of God, particularly the immortality of the soul. Subject matter at the heart of the discussion is indeed a science and can at best perhaps, provide an apex of the intellectual realm of that phenomenon. But where one's starting point is unknown [consciousness], and one's conclusion and intermediate steps [HKJ version] are made up of the unknown [conscious activity], how can the resulting consistency ever by any manner of means become knowledge ? Yes, provided and given that the subject matter is entertained within the realm of the soul [avastha, beyond time n space] then it becomes a matter of belief, acting as a bridge as it were, between reason and ordinary experience to evaluate metaphysically the matter to hand. Caution must be had that the sum total of truth [sat] may be called reality [NDE n OBE], but even reality could be pigeon holed to many individual truths. One such truth is beautifully weaved by Baba Nanak in Jap Ji Sahib, pauri 34 to 37.

More another time - Goodnight !
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,029
7,158
Henderson, NV.
Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

<snip off topic- AK>

Now going back to the thread topic. The issue is not to prove or postulate whether near death experiences exist. We experience every moment in our lives including when we are near death. The thread topic is to dialog or converse if there is any uniqueness, special significance or otherwise a special or ordinary character to NDEs. I conjecture without proof that there may be a special significance to NDEs as observed by some people,not all. Are such people on SPN and are still living to tell? Perhaps not. But the topic stands as such.
Please respond to my questions about NDE posted as per your expertise.

Thanks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
550
61
London UK
Good morning Everyone,

The word argument often connotes anger or such like disposition, but is in actual fact something quite pleasurable. It can be creative n productive activity that engages our minds and our hearts in conversations with people we respect about ideas we cherish n values we hold. Rational arguments are not vindictive sarcasm or fist-banging speakers, but to the contrary, truth seeking paradigms.

Dialectically arguing a stance with one's own conviction or set of belief n value is the underpinning of the believing n doubting game, pushing us toward new and better ideas. It means playing ideas against each other, creating tension that forces us to keep expanding our perspective. It helps us achieve the "mingling of minds". I'm of the view that the learned Ambarsaria Ji is cautioning to that end so that fruitful discussion could be had without unnecessary sneer.

Good day !
 

Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,246
5,184
Yes, please let us keep to topic of NDE's. It is not my area of interest and I know next to nothing about it, so please forgive my own lack of interaction here.
 

Harkiran Kaur

Leader

Writer
SPNer
Jul 21, 2012
1,393
1,909
Some more articles

Full Article:
https://iands.org/research/important-research-articles/464-dutch-nde-study-attracts-worldwide-attention.html

"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. There is a theory that consciousness can be experienced independently from the normal body-linked waking consciousness. The current concept in medical science, however, states that consciousness is the product of the brain. Could the brain be a kind of receiver for consciousness and memories, functioning like a TV, radio or a mobile telephone? What you receive is not generated by the receiver, but rather electromagnetic informational waves (photons) that are always around you and are made visible or audible to you by the brain and your sense organs. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex, and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex), the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their "dead" body."

Victor Zammit: A Lawyer Presents Case For NDEs not being biological:

Full Article:
http://www.victorzammit.com/evidence/nde.htm
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
550
61
London UK
Some more articles

Full Article:
https://iands.org/research/important-research-articles/464-dutch-nde-study-attracts-worldwide-attention.html

"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. There is a theory that consciousness can be experienced independently from the normal body-linked waking consciousness. The current concept in medical science, however, states that consciousness is the product of the brain. Could the brain be a kind of receiver for consciousness and memories, functioning like a TV, radio or a mobile telephone? What you receive is not generated by the receiver, but rather electromagnetic informational waves (photons) that are always around you and are made visible or audible to you by the brain and your sense organs. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex, and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex), the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their "dead" body."

Victor Zammit: A Lawyer Presents Case For NDEs not being biological:

Full Article:
http://www.victorzammit.com/evidence/nde.htm
Harkiran Kaur Ji

[Polite probe]
I'm at odds with reconciling NDE n Sikhism, more so with the fact that you are an "amritdhari" [eternal being], how do you correlate the two?

Ideologically speaking, you are an atma [soul], the never dying, the eternal, and if anything, the spiritual science of the soul is a realisation of the same in this here and now world, the "present" life. It follows therefore, that you always have "been" here, you always "is" here and you always "will" be here, meaning, non-dimensional realm of the soul [atma-parmatma]. If that'd be correct then the net result of all experiences is that they bring about the "realisation" [ultimate truth] of the never dying you.

Much obliged
 

Harkiran Kaur

Leader

Writer
SPNer
Jul 21, 2012
1,393
1,909
Harkiran Kaur Ji

[Polite probe]
I'm at odds with reconciling NDE n Sikhism, more so with the fact that you are an "amritdhari" [eternal being], how do you correlate the two?

Ideologically speaking, you are an atma [soul], the never dying, the eternal, and if anything, the spiritual science of the soul is a realisation of the same in this here and now world, the "present" life. It follows therefore, that you always have "been" here, you always "is" here and you always "will" be here, meaning, non-dimensional realm of the soul [atma-parmatma]. If that'd be correct then the net result of all experiences is that they bring about the "realisation" [ultimate truth] of the never dying you.

Much obliged
You are correct. We always have been and always will be. What these experiences do is show us a glimpse of this fact. In an OBE for example knowing without any doubt that my consciousness is the only thing which is permanent and real is a huge spiritual realization! I mean not just believing or theorizing but actual knowing as fact from actual subjective (possibly objective) experience! Looking at your physical body from a perspective outside of it makes you realize just how impermanent and unimportant the ego identity associated with it is. It changes you.... On a seriously deep level!
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
550
61
London UK
Harkiran Kaur Ji, your writings reflect your wisdom - undoubtly ! save in places, where Sikh Ideology's conceptual tools, theorectical reasoning and vocabulary would've been much more effective and appropriate than the conventional modes of expression [NDE n OBE] of the contemporay world. I say this in view of the writings found within SGGSJ, both mystical n revelation. Terms such as avastha [realm], chautha pad [turyia], khand, brahmand, sachkhand [home of the soul], and so on have distinct and corresponding existence. On account you being an amritdhari Sikh, I'm at loss to discover why you've not brought them into the arena to expalin n support your claims ?

Nonetheless, you've managed to concisely capture some of the spiritual excursions with the right wording, for example, "glimpses". This hammers home a clear msg of the divide between the physical n the spiritual human - beautifully.

Finally, I'd like to touch on the difference between knowledge n experience. Although, relative in nature, but where the former a result of perception n conception of the things as they appear in their natural state, the latter is, as things are in themselves. That is to say, we can have all the knowledge about a dog but could never experience being a dog. Conversely, knowledge n experience of the existence of the soul as an independent entity is a priori within the house of Nanak, experience of which is not a necessity to validate existence.

More another time - lunch is waiting !

Bye for now -
 
Last edited:

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Featured Shabad

This shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev ji, and is found on Ang 1331 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Some of the key words have been translated for you, but you may have a better translation. Some words...

SPN on Facebook

...
Top