Meat Issue Solved

[spnadmin]

Balbir ji

My best to you also on your journey. Place yourself in His mysterious power.

 

[pk70]

Quote"GURU JI DIDNT even acknowledge/comment on this...pointer is that this is IRRELEVANT and not worth commenting..( ALL other questions comments answered by Guru Ji)...we just need the Gyaan and Dhyaan and get out of Denial. IMHO..the MEAT question HAS BEEN SETTLED as stupid Jssi ji has written...its of no importance at all.

Giani Jarnail Singh,
Respectfully I ask you, how you can say on one hand, Guru ji" hasnt acknowledge comments on it", then "abhakhya ka kutha bakra khana" vaak is used in favor of meat eating? Where do you stand?
Coming back to your historical quote. In about four hours they ransacked Lahore? What you are talking about? Why it was only for four hours? Then after that time, did normalcy follow? It lasted for days. The best Principal Surjit singh is better than Bhai Veer Singh ? In his "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kosh"(154) clearly states that it was about early business of meat in which residents of Lahore were involved in. So lets dump Veer Singh, has Pr surjit Singh written any Gurbani Shabad Kosh that can enrich us, correct us? It is irrelevant to comment if it is not in agreement with Principal Surjit Singh. How many times I wrote here that "abhakhya ka bakra khana" Guru Vaak was not about eating or not eating meat. Even Randip Singh who agrees with on this issue also admits that Shabad is all about hypocrisy, but you keep bringing other stuff. How this Shabad can be tagged to Babur -attack or meat eating.
I myself do not want to waste time here because examples are given just out of context. As you quoted yesterday, all chaskas should be abandoned to walk on this Guru panth, I agree, then why Vegetarian or non Vegetarian debate is being done ?
Just to share with you here is another Guru Shabad that may lead us to some good conclusion.
mlwr mhlw 1 ] mrx mukiq giq swr n jwnY ] kMTy bYTI gur sbid pCwnY ]1] qU kYsy AwiV PwQI jwil ] AlKu n jwcih irdY sm@wil ]1] rhwau ] eyk jIA kY jIAw KwhI ] jil qrqI bUfI jl mwhI ]2] srb jIA kIey pRqpwnI ] jb pkVI qb hI pCuqwnI ]3] jb gil Pws pVI Aiq BwrI ] aUif n swkY pMK pswrI ]4] ris cUgih mnmuiK gwvwir ] PwQI CUtih gux igAwn bIcwir ]5] siqguru syiv qUtY jmkwlu ] ihrdY swcw sbdu sm@wlu ]6] gurmiq swcI sbdu hY swru ] hir kw nwmu rKY auir Dwir ]7] sy duK AwgY ij Bog iblwsy ] nwnk mukiq nhI ibnu nwvY swcy ]8]2]5] (pMnw 1275)

Randip singh
Excellent analysysis. This shabad has less to do with meat and more about Hypocrasy.
Did you know that Brahmins who served their Muslim rulers actually ate Hala meat, just so they could "suck up" to them? There are some interesting history books on this.
Randip Singh Ji, I agree.
Saying all this, this translation clears up one thing, i.e. Kutha (as per rehat Maryada) refers to ritual meat and not killed meat as some pro-veggie groups claim.
Again I agree, Kutha word is used to high light hypocrisy. Please tell me what it has to do what are vegetarians saying? Are they saying Guru ji says especially in this Shabad that it is against meat eating? I wrote many times to Giani ji that this shabad is all about hypocrisy applicable to all and has nothing to do with meat eating or not eating. The whole shabad is about abandoning hypocrisy and meditate on HIM.

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[pk70]

Background



The following guidelines are only indicative and not comprehensive in any case.[/FONT]

Major guidelines [/FONT]

I.[/FONT]The SGGS itself should always be used to define its own terminology, meanings, symbols, terms etc. that are already clearly defined within the SGGS itself. The external reference or Extrinsic aids in such cases should not be employed unless some absurdity is to be resolved. In normal case the definition as given in the Granth should be preferred.
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II.[/FONT]The proper interpretation of any given WLVS should be determined, not only by that with which it stands immediately connected, but by considering other approved Banis, if any, which have bearing upon the meaning throughout the entire SGGS. Further, the meaning of any given WLVS can only be determined by bringing together all related scriptures that sheds light on that WLVS.[/FONT]Sikh80 Ji

Good job, if only people can just stick to these two guidelines, Guru message can be understood better way. There is interpretation within Guru Granth sahib Ji.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

guru piayeree pk70 ji, gurfateh.
no offense but we may have got some signals crossed.
Here is my take:
1. SRM and Gurbani are in tandem on Kutha Meat. No contradiction. Those groups who say Sikh MUST be vegetarian are WRONG and contradict the SRM/Gurbani. This is what i mean when i say thet the Meat controversy is artificially created/sustained and Gurbani/SRM solved the issue decades ago.
2. Diet has no significance in Gurmatt - sehaj is advised in ALL. No recommendation by Guru ji either way (meat eating or saag eating).
3. The Shaabd in essence does concentrate on HYPOCRACY ..YES. The Sword of HYPOCRACY cuts both ways....
4. No one...has the exclusive "right" to claim sole "right" on Gurbani. Bhai Sahib Bhai Veer Singh Ji is a major Pillar of Sikhi and also Father of Modern Punjabi Literature etc etc...BUT he too cannot be 110% RIGHT on everything..and he is not ( examples can be given but not in scope here)
Similarly just because someone hasnt written a "Kosh" he can be dismissed out of hand ?? I dont subscribe to such. Baba Budha Ji didnt write a single word..Bhai gurdass Ji wrote 22 Vaars, hundreds of Kabits swaiyas and even scribed the SGGS...Baba Budha Ji was chosen to be First Granthi of Harmandarsahib.
5. Gurbani is AGAADH BODH..meaning as deep as the deepest ocean...only Guru Jis Kirpa can lead us anywhere...thus i have given BOTH views on Lahore sher jehr kehar sawa pehr. This is a HISTORICAL INCIDENT - Babr sacked Lahore in 1523 when Guru nanak ji was an eyewittness and is believed to have written babar vani and this slok. As to WHY??? babar chose this time and that time and why he limited the sacking to this hour or that hour..frankly ONLY Babar knows. You may be aware that there are aslo two versions of AAvan athherey jaan athanveh..Marad ka Chela...some beleive this verse is about Sher Shah suri..others believe a different version...again ONLY GURU NANAK ji knows- BOTH sides have good logical arguments..take your pick.
5. MY Personal method of education is to provide my students BOTH/THREE/FOUR sides to each incident...based on various authors/arguments/..and give equal opp to all - discuss..evaluate..arrive at your own conclusion. Guru Jis kirpa is NOT anyones Copy Right. Sometimes a five year old comes up with such a deep insight that i am humbled....no offense to Bhai Veer Singh Ji and his koshes and chamatkaars.(BTW i have ALL his koshes and chamatkaars..and teach them as well to interested students)

Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Background



The following guidelines are only indicative and not comprehensive in any case.[/FONT]

Major guidelines [/FONT]

I.[/FONT]The SGGS itself should always be used to define its own terminology, meanings, symbols, terms etc. that are already clearly defined within the SGGS itself. The external reference or Extrinsic aids in such cases should not be employed unless some absurdity is to be resolved. In normal case the definition as given in the Granth should be preferred.[/FONT]


Guru message can be understood better way. There is interpretation within Guru Granth sahib Ji.

PK 70 Jio,
Gurfateh.

With this is agree 150%.
SGGS is COMPLETE.
SGGS needs no extraneous "keys" etc to understand
SGGS doesnt need any extraneous books granths etc to understand.
SGGS shabds almost always HAVE further explanations elsewhere..all we need to do is to look/know how to look.
Just listen to Bhai Sahib Bhai Mohinder Singh SDO Gurbani Kirtan at his website to hear many examples of how SGGS shabds are linked by a common thread... www.sabdvartara.org. This is a favourite topic of SDO ji.
Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[pk70]

guru piayeree pk70 ji, gurfateh.
no offense but we may have got some signals crossed.
Here is my take:
1. SRM and Gurbani are in tandem on Kutha Meat. No contradiction. Those groups who say Sikh MUST be vegetarian are WRONG and contradict the SRM/Gurbani. This is what i mean when i say thet the Meat controversy is artificially created/sustained and Gurbani/SRM solved the issue decades ago.

Gyani ji That is what"Ekmusafir_ajanbi, wrote earlier quoting Guru Sahib, actually I was never on any side save for misquoting Gurvak to prove something about meat eating or Halaal eating.

3. The Shaabd in essence does concentrate on HYPOCRACY ..YES. The Sword of HYPOCRACY cuts both ways...

Doubtless, hypocrisy keeps us in duality. Walking on Guru path, choices automatically changes.

4. No one...has the exclusive "right" to claim sole "right" on Gurbani. Bhai Sahib Bhai Veer Singh Ji is a major Pillar of Sikhi and also Father of Modern Punjabi Literature etc etc...BUT he too cannot be 110% RIGHT on everything..and he is not ( examples can be given but not in scope here)

Gyani ji, I compared your best missionary with Bhai Sahib Veer Singh ji, it can be said in case of Pr Surjit Singh too, you quoted him like the last master of interpretor of Gurbani.I myself do not agree with tagging stories to Guru Shabad. Even when Guru Sahib addresses history, he makes it clear by using some words.

Similarly just because someone hasnt written a "Kosh" he can be dismissed out of hand ?? I dont subscribe to such. Baba Budha Ji didnt write a single word..Bhai gurdass Ji wrote 22 Vaars, hundreds of Kabits swaiyas and even scribed the SGGS...Baba Budha Ji was chosen to be First Granthi of Harmandarsahib.

Comparision is made when only one person is promoted as the best one.

5. Gurbani is AGAADH BODH..meaning as deep as the deepest ocean...only Guru Jis Kirpa can lead us anywhere...thus i have given BOTH views on Lahore sher jehr kehar sawa pehr. This is a HISTORICAL INCIDENT - Babr sacked Lahore in 1523 when Guru nanak ji was an eyewittness and is believed to have written babar vani and this slok. As to WHY??? babar chose this time and that time and why he limited the sacking to this hour or that hour..frankly ONLY Babar knows. You may be aware that there are aslo two versions of AAvan athherey jaan athanveh..Marad ka Chela...some beleive this verse is about Sher Shah suri..others believe a different version...again ONLY GURU NANAK ji knows- BOTH sides have good logical arguments..take your pick.

I agree, questioning was triggered when only one meaning was declared the final one. Gurbani is like an ocean, in every dip new jewel is found.

5. MY Personal method of education is to provide my students BOTH/THREE/FOUR sides to each incident...based on various authors/arguments/..and give equal opp to all - discuss..evaluate..arrive at your own conclusion. Guru Jis kirpa is NOT anyones Copy Right. Sometimes a five year old comes up with such a deep insight that i am humbled....no offense to Bhai Veer Singh Ji and his koshes and chamatkaars.(BTW i have ALL his koshes and chamatkaars..and teach them as well to interested students)

Again, I agree heartily with you; however, Guru Granth Sahib conveys one message, also known as Gurmat, Nanak-philosophy, nothing should be said or interpret against that; I hope you will agree with me on this

guru piayeree pk70 ji, gurfateh.

Respected Gyani ji I am not bhainji, you guess about me is wrong, Guru Fateh any way.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

abhakhiyah....word ( derogatory) used to describe the language of the invaders...the muslims...the unclean...by the "MR. Clean" (Brahmin/pandit/prohit), the Dharam de Thekedaars, the super holies. Thus a goat slaughtered while the kalma in abhkhiyah language was read over it..becomes kutha/sanctioned/purified/Hallal......or otherwise....( unclean/banned/unfit for consumption..) depending on which side of the divide you are.
2. Abhakhiayah is also.."Bad Language"....and we all know what is bad language...and thats got nothing to do with religion per se...this can be swear words..bad words..nindiya...gossip..snide remarks..remarks that hurt..are meant to destroy someone/his/her marriage/character..etc etc..and since the TONGUE is used in BOTH situations....the tongue EATS..as well as SPEAKS...could the SAME "Tongue" that EATS the unholy/holy meat....also be the one that SPEAKS...the holy/unholy "LANGUAGE" ??..the ABHAKHIYAH ??? Guru Ji might be using the Double-Edged SWORD..here ?? If we go by Gurbani...speaking ILL nindiya etc is also BAD..and a Tongue that speaks ill is certainly NOT HALLAL..as in Haak Pariya Nanka us SOOR us Gayeh..the words are NOT directed at FOOD but Human Behaviour....

AAD JI..you are very very right...Gurbani is so multifaceted and at so many LEVELS..it is like being in a Hall of Mirrors at a carnival....Only those who have Guru Jis Kirpa can really appreciate the sheer beauty of Gurbani..

Balbir Ji..Bon Voyage..May Guru Ji keep you safe in His hands...

Sikh80 Ji..i will be missing you too..Guru Ji Bless..

Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[pk70]

PK 70 Jio,
Gurfateh.

With this is agree 150%.
SGGS is COMPLETE.
SGGS needs no extraneous "keys" etc to understand
SGGS doesnt need any extraneous books granths etc to understand.
SGGS shabds almost always HAVE further explanations elsewhere..all we need to do is to look/know how to look.

Respected Giani ji

This says it all about how to understand Guru Granth Sahib Ji in right way.

 

[Randip Singh]

Again I agree, Kutha word is used to high light hypocrisy. Please tell me what it has to do what are vegetarians saying? Are they saying Guru ji says especially in this Shabad that it is against meat eating? I wrote many times to Giani ji that this shabad is all about hypocrisy applicable to all and has nothing to do with meat eating or not eating. The whole shabad is about abandoning hypocrisy and meditate on HIM.[/FONT]

There was a silly debate raging some time ago on another forum that stated Kuttha means "killed meat". It does not according to this Tukh. It means "Ritually Killed meat" i.e. that which has been sacrificed for God (like Halal).

The shabad is not against meat eating. Sikhism is neither for nor against meat eating. It leaves that decision to the individual conscience. This shabad has been cited by some pro-veggie groups as being about not eating meat, as has been pointed by people here, it is not about meat.

There is only one shabad to my knowledge that actually talks about meat, and that is:

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.​

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.​

First Mehl:
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.​

If you read Gyani ji's analysis however, it is correct too in a respect.

The essay written by my colleagues and edited by me tackles this issue head on:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

There was a silly debate raging some time ago on another forum that stated Kuttha means "killed meat". It does not according to this Tukh. It means "Ritually Killed meat" i.e. that which has been sacrificed for God (like Halal).

The shabad is not against meat eating. Sikhism is neither for nor against meat eating. It leaves that decision to the individual conscience. This shabad has been cited by some pro-veggie groups as being about not eating meat, as has been pointed by people here, it is not about meat.

There is only one shabad to my knowledge that actually talks about meat, and that is:

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.​

First Mehl:

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.​

​

If you read Gyani ji's analysis however, it is correct too in a respect.

The essay written by my colleagues and edited by me tackles this issue head on:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

On the contrary this shabad has been used by supporters of meat eaters as a certificate under which they get a pass for killing animals for eating purposes.

This Shabad highlights the plight of those hypocrites who comment or argue on the issue of meat, who have no knowledge of Gyi-aan or Dhi-aan. See highlighted lines.

mehlaa 1.
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.​

[URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/../redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.srigranth.org%2Fservlet%2Fgurbani.gurbani%3FAction%3DPage%26Param%3D1412%26english%3Dt%26id%3D59935%23l59935"]Page 1412, Line 10

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ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥

लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥

Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||​

[URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/../redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.srigranth.org%2Fservlet%2Fgurbani.gurbani%3FAction%3DPage%26Param%3D1412%26english%3Dt%26id%3D59937%23l59937"]Page 1412, Line 11​

ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
लाहौर सहरु अम्रित सरु सिफती दा घरु ॥२८॥
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
The city of Lahore is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||​

In the first verse, Guru Nanak Dev ji has CURSED the city of Lahore for the KEHAR (extreme level of Atrocities on animals) that is akin to jehar(poison) that do and shall for ever take place in the city of Lahore in the early hours of the Morning (instead of singing praises of the Lord). Whereas the verse by Guru Amardas ji comes about due to Guru ji's visit to Lahore where where the Sikh sangat expressed their grave concern over Guru Nanak Dev ji's comments. It is thus that Guru Amardas has assured the Sangat that there shall be a shehar of Amritsar which will be directly opposite to Lahore where only praise of the Lord will take place. Hence in this verse Guru Amardas has infact laid the foundations of the City of Amritsar. The house of Praise.​

My sincere apollogies to the sangat for this error. What has been said by Guru Nanak Dev ji still stands correct today as per verse 27. Therefore verse 28 as has been translated is incorrect as Lahore Shehar has not become "the home of Praise".​

The sangat may be aware that there is also a similar curse on the city of Amritsar where Guru ................... was refused entry to Harimandir Sahib. Guru ji said "Amritsariae andar sadiae". Upon hearing this the ladies of Amritsar ran to Guru ji and begged forgiveness. Guru ji took mercy on them and said "Mai-aan rabb Rajai-aan".​

Coming to the issue of meat, if killing animals for food was acceptable to Guru Nanak Dev ji then why would Guru ji use the words Jehr and Kehr in verse 27.​

ekmusafir_ajnabi​

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[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

1. OUCH...ouch ! oh my...I am very very sure OUR Beloved Guru Nanak Ji would NEVER "CURSE" anyone..let alone CURSING an entire CITY of Lahore which surely contained many many God fearing naam japping souls. ( EK Muisfir ajnabi 's message says Guru ji "CURSED LAHORE".) IMHO Guru jis is just stating a Fact of History plain and simple - death and destruction/slaughter of the innocent etc.
2. Cursing/Sraap/ etc are not in Guru Jis dictionary. They shouldnt be in OURS as well if we are genuinely sikhs of the same GURU. In Fact Gurbani is clear that there is no cursing/sraap.

3. The undue emphasis on..second half line..Gyyan dhyaan nahii jannea
is overdone Belorra. imho those who "imply - subtley and not so subtley that they who are vegetarians and thus following Guru Nanaks Gurmatt path are the ones who have "Gyaan Dhyaan" while the others are sorely missing in this..tends to highlight this part a bit too much.
The More important is Second line...KAUN Maas..Kaun SAAG Kahaveh...solves the riddle of Gyaan Dhyaan - those who KNOW what is Maas and what is Saag are the ones genuinely having Gyaan Dhyaan..(imho )
3. There are lots of us who are in Line FOUR...day time and in front of the public..we hold our noses ( nay thumb our noses at the meat eaters as some lowly life form jehrr kehr massacrists..murderes etc..) BUT at NIGHT (under cover..in PRIVATE...) we never even hesitate to DRINK HUMAN BLOOD - HAAK PRAYA NANAKA US SOOR US GAYEH....grab others lands, abuse the trust of the innocent, play con tricks to cheat, rob, murder..white collar crime..whatever and everything happens..but when Day Dawns..we say..Na Na asseen sakahari hundeh haan ji..khoob khanna khichhrre hee or Kath ki Roti.. this is HYPOCRICY as well and shown up in this Shabad.
4. Isnt it a fact that there are Many Hundreds of thousands of Amrtidharee Kirpan wearing "SIKHS" doing exactly ( Today) what the Shabd says the "Brahmins" did. Who are the MOORAKHS..all those who needlessly argue that meat eating/or not eating is SIKHI. That Amrit is broken by MEAT eating. Meat eating doesnt break AMRIT. Amrit is not that easy to break.
5. The so called "curse" on Amritsar is extraneous history...not corrobrated by Gurbani. Imho our GURU wouldnt be so evil hearted to curse the entire city of AMRITSAR simply because the PUJAREES of Harmandar sahib refused to open the Doors of Darbar sahib to Him. The Gurdwara commemorating Guru Teg bahadur Jis visit ot Harmandar Sahib is just NEXT to AKAL TAKHAT SAHIB. Meaning Guru Ji sat there...and then went away when the pujarees refused him entry to Harmandar Sahib/Akal Takhat sahib. Period. NO "cursing/berating/hitting his heels on the ground in anger How dare they ??? etc etc etc. Simply goes agisnt the very grain of our beloved Hind dee Chadar !! IMHO..story invented by some DERAWADEE BABA (many new ones spring up daily in Punjab seeing how lucarative goluck collections are)/Nirmala/Udasee SADHU etc is entirely plausible...Such SADHUS Curse and stamp their foot all the time...just watch any Hindi TV serial...
No offense to any hurt feelings..
Gyani JSA..( sans gyaan dhyaan to many..but no cursing/foot stamping here..not the Gurus Way at all...

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

ਸਭਨੀ ਘਟੀ ਸਹੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਹ ਬਿਨੁ ਘਟੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
सभनी घटी सहु वसै सह बिनु घटु न कोइ ॥
Sabẖnī gẖatī saho vasai sah bin gẖat na ko­ė.
God the Cosmic Husband dwells within all hearts; without Him, there is no heart at all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੯॥
नानक ते सोहागणी जिन्हा गुरमुखि परगटु होइ ॥१९॥
Nānak ṯė sohāgaṇī jinĥā gurmukẖ pargat ho­ė. ||19||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs are the happy, virtuous soul-brides; the Lord is revealed to them. ||19||

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
जउ तउ प्रेम खेलण का चाउ ॥
Ja­o ṯa­o parėm kẖėlaṇ kā cẖā­o.
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
सिरु धरि तली गली मेरी आउ ॥
Sir ḏẖar ṯalī galī mėrī ā­o.
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥
इतु मारगि पैरु धरीजै ॥
Iṯ mārag pair ḏẖarījai.
When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥
सिरु दीजै काणि न कीजै ॥२०॥
Sir ḏījai kāṇ na kījai. ||20||
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||

ਨਾਲਿ ਕਿਰਾੜਾ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥
नालि किराड़ा दोसती कूड़ै कूड़ी पाइ ॥
Nāl kirāṛā ḏosṯī kūrhai kūṛī pā­ė.
False is friendship with the false and greedy. False is its foundation.

ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੂਲਿਆ ਆਵੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੨੧॥
मरणु न जापै मूलिआ आवै कितै थाइ ॥२१॥
Maraṇ na jāpai mūli­ā āvai kiṯai thā­ė. ||21||
O Moollah, no one knows where death shall strike. ||21||

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
गिआन हीणं अगिआन पूजा ॥
Gi­ān hīṇaʼn agi­ān pūjā.
Without spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance.

ਅੰਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨੨॥
अंध वरतावा भाउ दूजा ॥२२॥
Anḏẖ varṯāvā bẖā­o ḏūjā. ||22||
They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality. ||22||

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
गुर बिनु गिआनु धरम बिनु धिआनु ॥
Gur bin gi­ān ḏẖaram bin ḏẖi­ān.
Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation.

ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਖੀ ਮੂਲੋ ਨ ਬਾਕੀ ॥੨੩॥
सच बिनु साखी मूलो न बाकी ॥२३॥
Sacẖ bin sākẖī mūlo na bākī. ||23||
Without Truth, there is no credit; without capital, there is no balance. ||23||

ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ॥
माणू घलै उठी चलै ॥
Māṇū gẖalai uṯẖī cẖalai.
The mortals are sent into the world; then, they arise and depart.

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥
सादु नाही इवेही गलै ॥२४॥
Sāḏ nāhī ivėhī galai. ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||

ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥
रामु झुरै दल मेलवै अंतरि बलु अधिकार ॥
Rām jẖurai ḏal mėlvai anṯar bal aḏẖikār.
Raam Chand, sad at heart, assembled his army and forces.

ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
बंतर की सैना सेवीऐ मनि तनि जुझु अपारु ॥
Banṯar kī sainā sėvī­ai man ṯan jujẖ apār.
The army of monkeys was at his service; his mind and body became eager for war.

ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥
सीता लै गइआ दहसिरो लछमणु मूओ सरापि ॥
Sīṯā lai ga­i­ā ḏehsiro lacẖẖmaṇ mū­o sarāp.
Raawan captured his wife Sita, and Lachhman was cursed to die.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥
नानक करता करणहारु करि वेखै थापि उथापि ॥२५॥
Nānak karṯā karanhār kar vėkẖai thāp uthāp. ||25||
O Nanak, the Creator Lord is the Doer of all; He watches over all, and destroys what He has created. ||25||

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
मन महि झूरै रामचंदु सीता लछमण जोगु ॥
Man meh jẖūrai rāmcẖanḏ sīṯā lacẖẖmaṇ jog.
In his mind, Raam Chand mourned for Sita and Lachhman.

ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥
हणवंतरु आराधिआ आइआ करि संजोगु ॥
Haṇvanṯar ārāḏẖi­ā ā­i­ā kar sanjog.
Then, he remembered Hanuman the monkey-god, who came to him.

ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥
भूला दैतु न समझई तिनि प्रभ कीए काम ॥
Bẖūlā ḏaiṯ na samjẖa­ī ṯin parabẖ kī­ė kām.
The misguided demon did not understand that God is the Doer of deeds.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥
नानक वेपरवाहु सो किरतु न मिटई राम ॥२६॥
Nānak vėparvāhu so kiraṯ na mit­ī rām. ||26||
O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||

ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
महला ३ ॥
Mehlā 3.
Third Mehl:

Ref to mussafir ajnabis comment on Guru amardass jis "assurance on foundation of amritsar ( Holy) vs lahore (EVIL) city" assertion.

ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
The city of Lahore is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||

Amrit_SAR - POOL of Ambriosal Nectar....exists in every place where the SANGAT gathers to perform Gurbani Kirtan/Naam japp/NamKatha/share Guru ka Langgar. This is not a reference to Amritsar city which was established long after Guru amardass Ji.

2. RAMDASS SAROVAR is another ususally misunderstood word. It is normally taken to mean that "Sarovar of Guru ramdass ji"...but what are we say when GURU ARJUN JI declares.... Due to continous repetition of RAAM..I BECAME known as "RAMDASS"...this surely cannot mean that Guru Arjun ji is also Guru Ramdass (his father) ?? RAMDASS means the DASS of RAAM the Creator....similarly RAMDASS SAROVAR is the place where the DASSES of RAAM the Creator gather to do Gurbani kirtan/katha/share langgar etc. Every Gurdwara palce of sangat congregation is RAMDASS SAROVAR.

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

On the contrary this shabad has been used by supporters of meat eaters as a certificate under which they get a pass for killing animals for eating purposes.

This Shabad highlights the plight of those hypocrites who comment or argue on the issue of meat, who have no knowledge of Gyi-aan or Dhi-aan. See highlighted lines.

mehlaa 1.
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.​

If this shabad is being used by supprters of meat eating then they are just as stupid as those who support a vegetarian diet.

This shabad is a direct refrence to those people who think they have more Gyan and and Dhan because they have a paricular diet, in this case vegetarian Pandits who sneered at meat eaters. Guru Nanak was a wise man indeed.

As for your other points, I draw you to Gyaniji's excellent rebuttle:

1. OUCH...ouch ! oh my...I am very very sure OUR Beloved Guru Nanak Ji would NEVER "CURSE" anyone..let alone CURSING an entire CITY of Lahore which surely contained many many God fearing naam japping souls. ( EK Muisfir ajnabi 's message says Guru ji "CURSED LAHORE".) IMHO Guru jis is just stating a Fact of History plain and simple - death and destruction/slaughter of the innocent etc.

2. Cursing/Sraap/ etc are not in Guru Jis dictionary. They shouldnt be in OURS as well if we are genuinely sikhs of the same GURU. In Fact Gurbani is clear that there is no cursing/sraap.

3. The undue emphasis on..second half line..Gyyan dhyaan nahii jannea
is overdone Belorra. imho those who "imply - subtley and not so subtley that they who are vegetarians and thus following Guru Nanaks Gurmatt path are the ones who have "Gyaan Dhyaan" while the others are sorely missing in this..tends to highlight this part a bit too much.
The More important is Second line...KAUN Maas..Kaun SAAG Kahaveh...solves the riddle of Gyaan Dhyaan - those who KNOW what is Maas and what is Saag are the ones genuinely having Gyaan Dhyaan..(imho )

4. There are lots of us who are in Line FOUR...day time and in front of the public..we hold our noses ( nay thumb our noses at the meat eaters as some lowly life form jehrr kehr massacrists..murderes etc..) BUT at NIGHT (under cover..in PRIVATE...) we never even hesitate to DRINK HUMAN BLOOD - HAAK PRAYA NANAKA US SOOR US GAYEH....grab others lands, abuse the trust of the innocent, play con tricks to cheat, rob, murder..white collar crime..whatever and everything happens..but when Day Dawns..we say..Na Na asseen sakahari hundeh haan ji..khoob khanna khichhrre hee or Kath ki Roti.. this is HYPOCRICY as well and shown up in this Shabad.

5. Isnt it a fact that there are Many Hundreds of thousands of Amrtidharee Kirpan wearing "SIKHS" doing exactly ( Today) what the Shabd says the "Brahmins" did. Who are the MOORAKHS..all those who needlessly argue that meat eating/or not eating is SIKHI. That Amrit is broken by MEAT eating. Meat eating doesnt break AMRIT. Amrit is not that easy to break.

6. The so called "curse" on Amritsar is extraneous history...not corrobrated by Gurbani. Imho our GURU wouldnt be so evil hearted to curse the entire city of AMRITSAR simply because the PUJAREES of Harmandar sahib refused to open the Doors of Darbar sahib to Him. The Gurdwara commemorating Guru Teg bahadur Jis visit ot Harmandar Sahib is just NEXT to AKAL TAKHAT SAHIB. Meaning Guru Ji sat there...and then went away when the pujarees refused him entry to Harmandar Sahib/Akal Takhat sahib. Period. NO "cursing/berating/hitting his heels on the ground in anger How dare they ??? etc etc etc. Simply goes agisnt the very grain of our beloved Hind dee Chadar !! IMHO..story invented by some DERAWADEE BABA (many new ones spring up daily in Punjab seeing how lucarative goluck collections are)/Nirmala/Udasee SADHU etc is entirely plausible...Such SADHUS Curse and stamp their foot all the time...just watch any Hindi TV serial...

No offense to any hurt feelings..
Gyani JSA..( sans gyaan dhyaan to many..but no cursing/foot stamping here..not the Gurus Way at all...

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Archived_Member4]

mukiq pdwrQu pweIAY Twk n AvGt Gwt ]231] (1377-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231||
He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||
kbIr eyk GVI AwDI GrI AwDI hUM qy AwD ] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
Bgqn syqI gosty jo kIny so lwB ]232] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. ||232||
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232||
kbIr BWg mwCulI surw pwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine
qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswqil jWih ]233] (1377-3, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||
- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||
nIcy loien kir rhau ly swjn Gt mwih ] (1377-4, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
sB rs Kylau pIA sau iksI lKwvau nwih ]234] (1377-4, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ||234||
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||
AwT jwm causiT GrI quA inrKq rhY jIau ] (1377-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
nIcy loien ikau krau sB Gt dyKau pIau ]235] (1377-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ||235||
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||
sunu sKI pIA mih jIau bsY jIA mih bsY ik pIau ] (1377-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
jIau pIau bUJau nhI Gt mih jIau ik pIau ]236] (1377-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ||236||
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||
kbIr bwmnu gurU hY jgq kw Bgqn kw guru nwih ] (1377-7, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
AriJ auriJ kY pic mUAw cwrau bydhu mwih ]237] (1377-7, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ||237||
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||
hir hY KWfu ryqu mih ibKrI hwQI cunI n jwie ] (1377-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
kih kbIr guir BlI buJweI kItI hoie kY Kwie ]238] (1377-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ||238||
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

the "Brahman"..Pandit..Maulvi..Kazi...etc etc in Gurbani are more than just Brahman/kazi/pandit. They are "CHARACTER". IN Guru Nanak Jis time these people are the PARCHARAKS..the LEADERS....the Ones in FRONT of the Faithful....teaching/moulding/preaching.
TODAY these same "CHARACTERS" would also include the "GYANIS" ( yours truly included !!) the "Ragis, the Kathakaars, the kirtaniyas, the Bhais, the Jathedars...etc etc. Its the CHARACTER that is at FAULT ( Paap is BAD not the PAPEE !!) IF a GYANI is misleading the sikh sangat...preaching the wrong things...than its his BAD TEACHINGS that are condemned. Many people usually take the "OH Brahmin..OH Pandit..OH Kazee....as proof that...OH Guru Ji means the HINDU BRahmin/Pandit..or the Kazee or Mullah..NOT ME..I am a SIKH..not a Brahmin/kazee !!!
SO when Kabeer ji declares that the Brahmin is NOT the GURU of the devotees..neither is the GYANI or the Jathedaar or the Kirtaniya...( IF he is misleading/misinterpreting Gurbani/SGGS ). IF the Brahmin has knowledge of Brahma..then he is true Brahmin....and a Gyani who has the gyaan dhyaan of SGGS...then he is true Gyani - otherwise NOT. Gurbani is for ALL TIME.

Gyani Jarnail Singh

 

[Archived_Member4]

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji

When Kabeer declares that Brahmin is not the Guru of the devotees he is stating the Guru is the Guru of the devotees and no one else. So we must follow the Guru. What you have said about the Gyani or jathedaar also is true; for them not also being the Guru.

 

[Randip Singh]

mukiq pdwrQu pweIAY Twk n AvGt Gwt ]231] (1377-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231||
He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||
kbIr eyk GVI AwDI GrI AwDI hUM qy AwD ] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
Bgqn syqI gosty jo kIny so lwB ]232] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. ||232||
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232||
kbIr BWg mwCulI surw pwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine
qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswqil jWih ]233] (1377-3, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||
- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||
nIcy loien kir rhau ly swjn Gt mwih ] (1377-4, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
sB rs Kylau pIA sau iksI lKwvau nwih ]234] (1377-4, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ||234||
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||
AwT jwm causiT GrI quA inrKq rhY jIau ] (1377-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
nIcy loien ikau krau sB Gt dyKau pIau ]235] (1377-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ||235||
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||
sunu sKI pIA mih jIau bsY jIA mih bsY ik pIau ] (1377-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
jIau pIau bUJau nhI Gt mih jIau ik pIau ]236] (1377-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ||236||
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||
kbIr bwmnu gurU hY jgq kw Bgqn kw guru nwih ] (1377-7, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
AriJ auriJ kY pic mUAw cwrau bydhu mwih ]237] (1377-7, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ||237||
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||
hir hY KWfu ryqu mih ibKrI hwQI cunI n jwie ] (1377-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
kih kbIr guir BlI buJweI kItI hoie kY Kwie ]238] (1377-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ||238||
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.
231
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.
khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.
231
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.
Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?

Taking out the sentence we see ​

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

 

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