• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Meat Issue Solved

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
Writer
SPNer
Jul 14, 2007
4,576
1,609
Chaska is related to "TONGUE"....taste buds...and EVERYTHING we eat is CHASKA. Hasnt anybody not heard a DAHI lover extolling the virtues of a heavenly thall of dahi freshly jammiah hoyah with a desi ghee prautha and achar ??

 

pk70

Writer
SPNer
Feb 25, 2008
1,582
627
USA
Quote"I have also read that the slok quoted on panna 1412 line 10 is written by Guru nanak Ji and that it refers to the butchering of animals in the early hours of dawn....so that meat would be ready for markets...
BUT then Guru Amardass Ji added His own commentary in Line 11..
Declaring that the Lahore town of extreme cruelty/slaughter etc has become...Pool of ambroisal Nectar/home of Praise....WHY ??
Because of the BIRTH of BHAI JETHA JI ( later to become Guru Ramdass Ji )..... see how beautiful this is....the scorching heat of HELL on EARTH miraculously turns into the cooling pool of amrit and home of Praise by the BIRTH of such a Man of God like GURU RAMDASS JI.
On the surface these two sloks look "contradictive" to each other but explained as above..the logic is clear...GURBANI is never contradictory.

2. Chaska is related to "TONGUE"....taste buds...and EVERYTHING we eat is CHASKA.
Gyani Jarnail singh ji,You are dead wrong here, chaska goes near to craving also known as tongue taste. If one is hungry, there is need to eat, any kind of food goes to satisfy hunger. Visit the hungry; they take any thing to eat. Even meat doesn’t remain chaska in that situation.

Hasnt anybody not heard a DAHI lover extolling the virtues of a heavenly thall of dahi freshly jammiah hoyah with a desi ghee prautha and achar ?? OR soembody else extolling the heavenly taste of DAAL MAKHNEE..Mahan dee Daal at Guru ramdass Ji Langgar in Amritsar * OUT OF THIS WORLD !!! some ones SAMOSAS...another famous restaurants burfee..soem halwaii's laddoos..churan laddoos..etc etc ALL are CHASKA. in fact this is called SWEET TOOTH...meaning a HABIT for sweets that is ADDICTIVE !! again this is CHASKA...
Yes, here again ,craving/chaska to satisfy tongue taste regardless of the form of food. Shouldn't Sikhs pay attention to this point too? Sure, they should. From where have you got idea that all Sikhs don't do that?

2. I find people are being very choosy...whereas GURU JI declares RAS MEETHA..and then Ras MAAS...everybody with an "agenda" is busy attacking the MEAT RASS" and completley IGNORING RASS MEETHA whcih comes FIRST !!! ALL the BABAS..the Taksalis..the AKJs..the derawadees..ALL united against MAAS RASS.....and completly ignoring MEETHA !!! how FUNNY ?? Can anybody quote even ONE BABA preaching AGAINT "MEETHA RASS CHASKA" ?? Who gave us the right to pick and choose ?? Guru Jis LIST has NINE RASS listed..we just PICK "ONE" ( Vegetariansim as a "vehicle to reach GOD" is Brahmin/Hindu/JAIN based baggage we carry - my opinion)>>> WHY JUST ONE RASS ???
PK JI please answer this..i would be pleased to hear your views.

First of all, respected Gyani ji, we were discussing about a shabad which has nothing to do with the issue” if eating meat is right or not”; however, it was given that color to that Guru Vaak by you. I just tried to tell you that use the Shabad that fits in your views.
Now coming back to MEETHA CHASKA” Guru Sahib also talks about that in Shabad” Baba hor khana khushi khuaar…” it covers all kind of food that is more attached to tongue taste than need of the body. Shabad has bigger application than this as you know, however, meetha chaska is covered though. Why didn’t I pick up? Well the topic was meat, so I was wondering if meat eating is also CHASKA? People crave meat, obviously that is Chaska, and people crave for other foods- sweet or sour- also fall in the same category. Is it Chaska, of course. I am not one of those vegetarians as you pointed out, I don’t eat meat because it is hard for me to eat meat, I visualize innocent animals when I see meat. Where do I stand on this issue? When there is vegetarian food available in million forms then why to eat meat? Why to go on slaughtering innocent animals just for chaska If some one says it is Ok, I don’t say it is sin, if its OK for some, it is fine with me but for that we really do not need imaginary support. Just keep eating whatever you do. Why to question vegetarians either? They may have same views for Vegetarian food as you have on meat eating. If they are the ones who question you on this issue, you are also acting in the same manner, what is the difference between them and you?

3. gur Ji has warned agianst MEETHA RASS getting the better of US..and just see how many Doctors warn us agisnt SUGAR....how many Gurdwaras are now being forced to proivide sugarless Chah due to the DIABETES/BP/OBESITY/etc etc of the SIKH Sangats !!!
I would be most pleased IF ALL SIKHS would get off this "anti-Meat" bandwagon and get cracking on spreading GURU JIs WARNING on ALL NINE Rass.... YES 9 of them and MEAT is LAST on the list meaning it is the LEAST important
Meat comes last because of rytham. There is no special reason for that though.
To be vegetarian being a Sikh is a choice, I am still wondering what kind of bandwagon you are talking about. As per Guru ji teachings, idiots argue over meat because they do not know “gyan,dhyan” Chaskas totally disapprear in that state of mind.
....ALL 9 rass are to do with our BODY..SREER and are DANGEROUS TO OUR HEALTH. Stop picking and choosing....ONCE we have all CONQUERED all the EIGHT preceeding rass then we can go on to vanquish the meat rass....victory belongs to the KHALSA.

Why to wait? Why not start conquering all chaskas all together. That is what Guru ji says unlike you who say that first conquer other chaska before working on meat chaska. Victory belongs to all, not only to Khalsa. Believe me that very effort of yours will put you in the same bandwagon.
 

pk70

Writer
SPNer
Feb 25, 2008
1,582
627
USA
Dear PK 70 ji

In the essay written by principal surjit singh ji I read that the line Page 1412, Line 10
ਲਾਹੌਰਸਹਰੁਜਹਰੁਕਹਰੁਸਵਾਪਹਰੁ੨੭॥
लाहौरसहरुजहरुकहरुसवापहरु॥२७॥
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||


Is misinterpretted as It is related to invasion and Not killing of killing of Animals because if it is related to killing of animals
then why Guru Amar das ji wrote

Page 1412, Line 11
ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
लाहौर सहरु अम्रित सरु सिफती दा घरु ॥२८॥
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
The city of Lahore is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||

Because Killing of Animals or Eating meat chaska was not at all stopped by the time Guru Amardas
Kds1980 Ji
There are two words used by Guru ji on 1442 in Vaak 10" Jehr and Kehr" if it were only about someone's attack, why "Jehr" word is used? Obviously Guru ji qualifies "kehr" To me it seems Guru ji is saying about slaughtering of animals. There is another Guru Shabad that states" to feed one life, many lives are taken" I cannot remember, I shall post it for your information. It all comes down to choice of living. People live the way they like.

If you see in this Guru Vaak“the home of praise” it is about people of the city indulged in Nam Simran, possibly Guru ji is hinting about change occurred over years as no resident of Lahore was doing that during Guru Nanak. If Guru Amardas Ji ‘s presence is referred in this Guru Vaak, it states also the same idea. No contradiction exists as said by Giani Jarnail Singh ji.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
Pk70 ji,

People who live a life of denial cannot be convinced. Until they develop the understanding of " Gyi-aan and Dhi-aan " they cannot begin to realise what Guru ji telling us. The words Jehr and Kehr are not in their dictionery.

The translation of the tuks provided by KDS is deplorable. It makes the tuk sound like a war time report.

Page 1412, Line 10
ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

Page 1412, Line 11
ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
लाहौर सहरु अम्रित सरु सिफती दा घरु ॥२८॥
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
The city of Lahore is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||

In the first verse, Guru Nanak Dev ji has CURSED the city of Lahore for the KEHAR (extreme level of Atrocities on animals) that is akin to jehar(poison) that do and shall for ever take place in the city of Lahore in the early hours of the Morning (instead of singing praises of the Lord). Whereas the verse by Guru Amardas ji comes about due to Guru ji's visit to Lahore where where the Sikh sangat expressed their grave concern over Guru Nanak Dev ji's comments. It is thus that Guru Amardas has assured the Sangat that there shall be a shehar of Amritsar which will be directly opposite to Lahore where only praise of the Lord will take place. Hence in this verse Guru Amardas has infact laid the foundations of the City of Amritsar. The house of Praise.

My sincere apollogies to the sangat for this error. What has been said by Guru Nanak Dev ji still stands correct today as per verse 27. Therefore verse 28 as has been translated is incorrect as Lahore Shehar has not become "the home of Praise".


The sangat may be aware that there is also a similar curse on the city of Amritsar where Guru ................... was refused entry to Harimandir Sahib. Guru ji said "Amritsariae andar sadiae". Upon hearing this the ladies of Amritsar ran to Guru ji and begged forgiveness. Guru ji took mercy on them and said "Mai-aan rabb Rajai-aan".

Coming to the issue of meat, if killing animals for food was acceptable to Guru Nanak Dev ji then why would Guru ji use the words Jehr and Kehr in verse 27.


ekmusafir_ajnabi
 
Last edited by a moderator:

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
It is a "war report" in a manner of speaking ...heh, heh... see this link ...the invaders ate fruit...
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji :page 1412:SearchGurbani.com

Of course at another level it is not a war report, and we can take this to mean that neither animals nor humans were the objects of slaughter, in a manner of speaking :D of course..

No matter how the reading goes...

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥
saadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the point of the shabad.


ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,


ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,706
14,381
75
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Chaska...havent we all heard..Live to Eat and EAT to LIVE ? PK Ji I am aware of this. The POOR eat to LIVE..and those with Chaska LIVE to eat !! A poor man eating meat wouldnt be having chaska....and a Malik Bhago eating DAAL could be having CHASKA. Perfectly sensible.

Gurbani is for ALL...both meat eaters and non....so the ESSENTIAL point of Gurbani is CHASKA..CRAVING..ADDICTION to beyond CONTROL. Meat and non meat..SAAG or Non Saag is the Central point Gurbani stresses...its we with our own involutions and twistings that pick up on one or the other...pick and choose....we even go so far as to submit..that others dont have the GYAAN/DHYAAN that we have...just ebcasue the other oen eats what we abhor..and then we call them in denial..abhorrent creatures of Jehr Kehr ....
I humbly submit that Jehr Kehr is in EVERYONES DICTIONARY....those who eat meat and those who eat SAAG. You talk about animal cruelty...(jehr Kehr)...please read Guru nanak Jis shabad on GANNA( Sugar cane)..absolutley beautiful IMAGERY by Guur Ji....how the poor Ganna - sugar cane plant is PULLED up by its roots...its HEAD CHOPPED OFF..its FEET lopped off by sharp instruments...then TIED up in bundles...thrown upon transport and then taken to the Sugar Mill...and then PUSHED throught eh CRUEL MILL where its JUICES are DRAINED OUT....even its lifelss dead body is NOT SPARED..that is then BURNED in the FIRE on which its juice is BOILED to make Sugar !!!
WHY did GURU JI go so far to write such a moving Image filled shabad about a ..lifeless..vegetable ?? Just black out the words GANNA..and the entire shabad can be one Jehr Kehr image about an ANIMAL being used for FOOD...Surprisingly GURU JI NEVER WROTE a single shabad so GRAPHIC baout ANIMAL SLAUGHTER... why ?? Because we and all in thsoe times too..were already aware of how animals are slaughtered.... BUT EVEN TODAY many many millions still stuck in Time WARP idea thta.."PLANTS" are lower life Form..feel NO PAIN..DONT SUFFER..dont cry..dont scream..dont struggle....blah blah blah....THATS WHY GURU JI chose to write such a Graphic Shaabd about the PLANT SUGAR CANE !!!

The Real Message of Gurbani is FOOD IS FOOD...No Spiritual benefit is attached to any diet...Eat SPARINGLY what nature provides...Bhagat ji ahs said..Eat Khicchrree..Rice-daal Porridge...BUT can the entire 6 Billion people eat just khichhrree alone..is that a Practical solution..Do our Gurdawra Langgars ONLY seve Porridge and nothing else..Its just a POINTER by ONE Bhgat Ji..Guru ji gives OTHER POINTERS..many of them.. like for example in Sidh Ghost..the Yogis proudly informed Guru ji that they ONLY ate roots/fruits... GURU JI DIDNT even acknowledge/comment on this...pointer is that this is IRRELEVANT and not worth commenting..( ALL other questions comments answered by Guru Ji)...we just need the Gyaan and Dhyaan and get out of Denial. IMHO..the MEAT question HAS BEEN SETTLED as stupid Jssi ji has written...its of no importance at all.

Regards

Gyani jarnail Singh
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
Kds1980 Ji
There are two words used by Guru ji on 1442 in Vaak 10" Jehr and Kehr" if it were only about someone's attack, why "Jehr" word is used? Obviously Guru ji qualifies "kehr" To me it seems Guru ji is saying about slaughtering of animals. There is another Guru Shabad that states" to feed one life, many lives are taken" I cannot remember, I shall post it for your information. It all comes down to choice of living. People live the way they like.

If you see in this Guru Vaak“the home of praise” it is about people of the city indulged in Nam Simran, possibly Guru ji is hinting about change occurred over years as no resident of Lahore was doing that during Guru Nanak. If Guru Amardas Ji ‘s presence is referred in this Guru Vaak, it states also the same idea. No contradiction exists as said by Giani Jarnail Singh ji.

Dear pk 70 ji and gyani ji

You can Read interpretation of that tuk in following link

KAUN MAAS KAUN SAAG KHAVEY 16

Principal Surjit singh has written that through that tuk Guru Nanak Dev ji predicted destruction of lahore which was going to happen.

Even in mahan kosh kahan singh Nabha has written that after watching cruelty of rulers on people in lahore Guru Nanak dev ji said that shalok and after That it is well known fact that in 1524 entire city of lahore was burnt down by forces of Babur.So Guru Nanak Dev ji warned people of lahore

And at the time of Guru amardas ji Gurbani was propagated in Lahore so Guru Amardas ji said that lahore is now city of amrit

My interpreatation may be not correct so I request to all those who read punjabi to read it themself.

But I found This translation. more upto mark
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,706
14,381
75
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Dear KDS Ji, Gurfateh.
There is nothing wrong in the translation you submit. Its widely accepted and may be the correct one.... the one i submitted has been held by quite a few scholars. Guru nanak Jis Babarvani is eyewittness account of the sacking of Saidpur Emnabaad..and Guru Ji was present in LAHORE in 1524 sacking by Babur. So its perfectly acceptable.
The important point to remember is that GURBANI is not "contradictory". What i am trying to put across is that many armchair "Gurbani gyaanidhyannis" will attempt to twist these tuks and say Gurbani is contradictory....One Guru Ji says this and the other says that...that si the point i am making.
Here is an entry from the Sikh encyclopaedia.....scroll down to Lahore 1524 and you see he says the same thing about this shabd as you have quoted Principal Surjit Singh Ji. Principal Sahib is one of the best Sikh missionary writers found today...logical and learned. I vist his site often.

Gyani jarnail Singh
Babar's Invasion (1525 A.D)

nanakbab.jpg
Babar was soldier of fortune, founder of the Mughal dynasty in India, diarist and poet, descending in the fifth generation from Timur, was born on 14 February 1483. In June 1494, he succeeded his father, 'Umar Shaik , as ruler of Farghana, whose revenues supported no more than a few hundred cavalry. With this force of helmeted, mailclad warriors, Babar began his career of conquest. He joined in the family struggle for power, thrice winning and thrice losing Samarkand, alternately master of a kingdom or a wanderer through the hills. In 1504, he made himself master of Kabul and so came in touch with India whose wealth was a standing temptation. In 1517 and again in 1519, he swept down the Afghan plateau into the plains of India. He entered the Punjab in 1523 on the invitation of Daulat Khan Lodhi, the governor of the province, and 'Alam Khan, an uncle of Ibrahim Lodhi, the Delhi Sultan. But, wars in his home country however, compelled Babar to return so that his final invasion was not begun until November 1525.
Babar's army of 12,000 men was mostly undisciplined group of men who wanted to loot the riches of India. These 12,000 men, a tiny army with which to attempt the conquest of Ibrahim Lodhi's realm, first devasted Punjab. Guru Nanak in his famous epic named "Babarvani" describes the atrocities of Babar and his men in Punjab.
Babarvani (Babar's command or sway) is how the four hymns by Guru Nanak alluding to the invasions by Babar (1483-1530), are collectively known in Sikh literature. The name is derived from the use of the term in one of these hymns "Babarvani phiri gal kuiru na rot khai -Babar's command or sway has spread; even the princes go without food" (GG, 417). Three of these hymns are in Asa measure at pages 360 and 417-18 of the standard recension of Guru Granth Sahib and the fourth is in Tilang measure on pages 722-23.
In his first invasion, Babar came as far as Peshawar. The following year he crossed the Indus and, conquering Sialkot without resistance, marched on Saidpur (now Eminabad, 15 km southeast of Gujranwala in Pakistan) which suffered the worst fury of the invading host. The town was taken by assault, the garrison put to the sword and the inhabitants carried into captivity. During his next invasion in 1524, Babar ransacked Lahore. His final invasion was launched during the winter of 1525-26 and he became master of Delhi after his Victory at Panipat on 21 April 1526.
Guru Nanak was an eye-witness to the havoc created during these invasions. Janam Sakhis mention that he himself was taken captive at Saidpur. A little of his, outside of Babarwani hymns, indicates that he may have been present in Lahore when the city was given up to plunder. In six pithy words this line conveys, "For a pahar and a quarter, i.e. for nearly four hours, the city of Lahore remained subject to death and fury" (GG,1412). The mention in one of the Babalvani hymns of the use of guns by the Mughals against the Afghan defence relying mainly upon their war - elephants may well be a reference to the historic battle of Panipat which sealed the fate of the Afghan king, Ibrahim Lodhi.
The Sikh tradition strongly subscribes to a meeting in 1520 between Guru Nanak and Babar during the latter's invasion of Saidpur, now called Eminabad, in Gujranwala district of Pakistan. The town was taken by assault, the garrison put to the sword and the inhabitants carried into captivity. According to the Puratan Janam Sakhi, Guru Nanak and Mardana, also among the captives, were ordered to be taken to prison as slaves. The Guru was given a load to carry and Mardana a horse to lead. But Mir Khan, says the Janam Sakhi, saw that the Guru's bundle was carried without any support and Mardana's horse followed him without the reins. He reported this to Sultan Babar who remarked, "If there was such a holy man here, the town should not have been destroyed." The Janam Sakhi continues, "Babar kissed his (Guru Nanak's) feet. He said, 'On the face of this fair one sees God himself.' Then all the people, Hindus and Musalmans, began to make their salutations. The king spoke again, 'O dervish, accept something'. The Guru answered, 'I take nothing, but you must release all the prisoners of Saidpur and restore their property to them'. King Babar ordered, 'Those who are in detention be released and their property be returned to them'. All the prisoners of Saidpur were set at liberty"
Babarvani hymns are not a narrative of historical events like Guru Gobind Singh's Bachitra Natak, nor are they an indictment of Babar as his Zafarnamah was that of Aurangzab. They are the outpourings of a compassionate soul touched by scenes of human misery and by the cruelty perpetrated by the invaders. The sufferings of the people are rendered here in accents of intense power and protest. The events are placed in the larger social and historical perspective decline in moral standards must lead to chaos. A corrupt political system must end in dissolution. Lure of power divides men and violence unresisted tends to flourish It could not be wished away by magic or sorcery Guru Nanak reiterated his faith in the Almighty and in His justice. Yet so acute was his realization of the distress of the people that he could not resist making the complaint: "When there was such suffering, such killing, such shrieking in pain, did not Thou, O God, feel pity? Creator, Thou art the same for all!"
The people for Guru Nanak were the people as a whole, the Hindus and the Muslims, the high-caste and the low-caste, soldiers and civilians, men and women. These hymns are remarkable for their moral structurs and poetical eloquence. Nowhere else in contemporary literature are the issues in medieval Indian situation comprehended with such clarity or presented in tones of greater urgency. In spite of his destructive role Babar is seen by Guru Nanak to have been an unwitting instrument of the divine Will. Because the Lodhi's had violated God's laws, they had to pay the penalty. Babar descended from Kabul as God's chosen agent, demonstrating the absolute authority of God and the retribution which must follow defiance of His laws. Guru Nanak's commentary on the events which he actually witnessed thus becomes a part of the same universal message. God is absolute and no man may disobey. His commands with impunity. Obey Him and receive freedom. Disobey him and the result must inevitably be retribution, a dire reckoning which brings suffering in this present life and continued transmigration in the hereafter. The hymn rendered in free English verse reads:
Lord, Thou takest Khurasan under Thy wing,
but yielded India to the invader's wrath.
Yet thou takest no blame;
And sendest the Mughal as the messenger of death.
When there was such suffering, killing,
such shrieking in pain,
Didst not Thou, O God, feel pity ?
The fourth Babarvani hymn is probably addressed to Bhal Lalo, one of Guru Nanak's devotees living at Saidpur itself. It ends on a prophetic note, alluding perhaps to the rise of Sher Khan, an Afghan of Sur clan, who had already captured Bengal and Bihar, defeated Babar's son and successor, Humayun, at Chausa on the Ganga in June 1539 (during the lifetime of Guru Nanak), and who finally drove the Mughal king out of India in the following year. The hymn in Tilang measure is, like the other three, an expression of Guru Nanak's feeling of distress at the moral degradation of the people at the imposition by the mighty. It is a statement also of his belief in God's justice and in the ultimate victory of good over evil. In an English rendering:
"
As descendeth the Lord's word to me, so do I deliver
it unto you, O Lalo:

[Babar] leading a wedding-array of sin
hath descended from Kabul and
demandeth by force the bride, O Lalo.
decency and righteousness have vanished,
and falsehood struts abroad, O
Lalo.

Gone are the days of Qazis and Brahmans,
Satan now conducts the nuptials, O Lalo.

The Muslim women recite the Qur'an and
in distress remember their God, O Lalo.

Similar is the fate of Hindu women of
castes high and low, O Lalo.

They sing paeans of blood, O Nanak,
and by blood, not saffron, ointment is made,
O Lalo.

In this city of corpses, Nanak
proclaimeth God's praises, and uttereth
this true saying:

The Lord who created men and put them
to their tasks watcheth them from
His seclusion.

True is that Lord, true His verdict,
and true is the justice He dealeth.

As her body's vesture is torn to shreds,
India shall remember my words.

In seventy-eight they come, in ninety
seven shall depart; another man of
destiny shall arise.

Nanak pronounceth words of truth,
Truth he uttereth; truth the time
calls for."
The words Seventy-eight and ninetyseven" in the penultimate line are interpreted as 1578 and 1597 of the Indian calendar, corresponding respectively with 1521 and 1540 which are the dates of Babar's invasion and Humayun's dethronement by Sher Khan/Shah. Though Babar's Tuzk, or Memoirs, a work of high literary quality, gives many interesting details of the campaigns and the events he was involved in and also describes the Indian life and customs very minutely there is no mention in these recollections that he met Guru Nanak. Nevertheless, the possibility of such a meeting having taken place cannot be ruled out. There are references in Guru Nanak's bans to Babars's invasions. An open tragedy like the one that struck Saidpur moved him profoundly and he described the sorrows of Indians-Hindus and Muslims alike-in words of intense power and suffering. Babar's army, in the words of Guru Nanak, was "the bridal procession of sin." In fact, Indian literature of that period records no more virile protest against the invading hordes than do Guru Nanak's four hymns of Babarvani in the Guru Granth Sahib.
Babar died on 26 December 1530 at Agra. Several years later his body was moved to its present grave in one of the gardens of Kabul.
Babar's ivasion and occupation of India impacted the life in India in all aspects. His generals forced people to be converted to Islam, his Zamindar's and other influential people bestowed lands and property on the newly converted Muslims. Babar himself became a Ghazi which in Islamic terminology is a positive epitecht and it means "a muslim who has killed a non-muslim", such a person is guaranteed heaven with "beautiful women, wine and rivers of honey." Another thing to note is that Babar destroyed several Hindu temples all over Punjab, and UP. Reason being is because founder of islam, Mohammad had done the same thing when he attacked Meeca and destroyed its temple and idolized Kaba. He made a pathway to kaaba using destroyed debree of the old temple, this tradition was continued by all the Mughal kings who invaded Indian, including Humayun, Akbar, Jahangir, Shahjahan and Aurungzeb, they destroyed temples and converted them to mosques, even though it is not allowed in islam as muslims claim but Mohammad himself had done it so they followed their leader.
The clash between Sikh and Islamic culture was inevitable and resulted in first small hostilities between Guru's followers starting with the Sixth Guru Guru Hargobind and later into full scale with Tenth Guru Guru Gobind Singh.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
  1. Copyright © Harbans Singh "The encyclopedia of Sikhism."
 
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
It is a "war report" in a manner of speaking ...heh, heh... see this link ...the invaders ate fruit...
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji :page 1412:SearchGurbani.com

Of course at another level it is not a war report, and we can take this to mean that neither animals nor humans were the objects of slaughter, in a manner of speaking :D of course..

No matter how the reading goes...

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥
saadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the point of the shabad.
ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,
ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

The wise need not be repeatedly reminded. There is usually an age at which one can be reformed. A sleeping person can be awaken but one who is pretending can be. But then there are some who will simply refuse to.

Kindly do not use verses in isolation from SGGS to look smart. This is Beadbi. At least use the entire tuk if absolutely necessary.

ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥
The mortals are sent into the world; they arise and depart.There is no joy in this. ||24||



Humans are sent into this world to gain spiritual knowledge (Gyi-aan) so that they can mend their ways and find a path for liberation. If the mortal takes birth and departs without such knowledge then what is the joy in it. This is where we differ from animal kingdom. The thought of the animal is only limited to filling their belly and no more. If a human being who is being supported by several sacrifices of small organisms that give life to our body, does the same then can he be different to the animal. If you have decided to follow Sikhism, the do not waste time in a life of pretense.


ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

Are you ready for this? .
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,949
55
United Kingdom
oops! And sorry for jumping to conclusions AGAIN.

But now I have looked and I think stupidjassi ji was only referring the meaning of one word.

Look at the above line at Page No. 472. IT Clearly says 'Abakhiya Da Kutha' . Hence its clear that the meaning of word 'Kutha' is NOT meat but HALAL/Kosher ,which is one of the 4 cardinal sins.


He doesn't seem to be commenting on the meaning of the shabad. That was my impression only. Just the meaning of the word. The shabad seems to speaking about moral corruption and spiritual hypocrisy.



ਮਃ ੧ ॥
ma 1 ||
First Mehl:

17 ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥
maanas khaanae karehi nivaaj ||
The man-eaters say their prayers.

ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ ॥
shhuree vagaaein thin gal thaag ||
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.

ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥
thin ghar brehaman poorehi naadh ||
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.

ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ ॥
ounhaa bh aavehi ouee saadh ||
They too have the same taste.


ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
koorree raas koorraa vaapaar ||
False is their capital, and false is their trade.

ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥
koorr bol karehi aahaar ||
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.


ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
saram dhharam kaa ddaeraa dhoor ||
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥
naanak koorr rehiaa bharapoor ||
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.

ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ ॥
mathhai ttikaa thaerr dhhothee kakhaaee ||
The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;


ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ ॥
hathh shhuree jagath kaasaaee ||
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!



ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
neel vasathr pehir hovehi paravaan ||
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.


ਮਲੇਛ ਧਾਨੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
malaeshh dhhaan lae poojehi puraan ||
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.

ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥
abhaakhiaa kaa kuthaa bakaraa khaanaa ||
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,

ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
choukae oupar kisai n jaanaa ||
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.

ਦੇ ਕੈ ਚਉਕਾ ਕਢੀ ਕਾਰ ॥
dhae kai choukaa kadtee kaar ||
They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.

ਉਪਰਿ ਆਇ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥
oupar aae baithae koorriaar ||
The false come and sit within them.

ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ਵੇ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ॥ਇਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਅਸਾਡਾ ਫਿਟੈ ॥
math bhittai vae math bhittai || eihu ann asaaddaa fittai ||
They cry out, ""Do not touch our food, or it will be polluted!""

ਤਨਿ ਫਿਟੈ ਫੇੜ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥
than fittai faerr karaen ||
But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.

ਮਨਿ ਜੂਠੈ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰੇਨਿ ॥
man joothai chulee bharaen ||
With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥
kahu naanak sach dhhiaaeeai ||
Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.

ਸੁਚਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
such hovai thaa sach paaeeai ||2||
If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||

Excellent analysysis. This shabad has less to do with meat and more about Hypocrasy.

Did you know that Brahmins who served their Muslim rulers actually ate Hala meat, just so they could "suck up" to them? There are some interesting history books on this.

Saying all this, this translation clears up one thing, i.e. Kutha (as per rehat Maryada) refers to ritual meat and not killed meat as some pro-veggie groups claim.

The meat issue in Sikhism controversial leaves this choice to the individual. If one traces the history of this issue one finds latter Hindu converts with Vashnavite tendencies pushing the vegetarian agenda.
 
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
Dear pk 70 ji and gyani ji

You can Read interpretation of that tuk in following link

KAUN MAAS KAUN SAAG KHAVEY 16

Principal Surjit singh has written that through that tuk Guru Nanak Dev ji predicted destruction of lahore which was going to happen.

Even in mahan kosh kahan singh Nabha has written that after watching cruelty of rulers on people in lahore Guru Nanak dev ji said that shalok and after That it is well known fact that in 1524 entire city of lahore was burnt down by forces of Babur.So Guru Nanak Dev ji warned people of lahore

And at the time of Guru amardas ji Gurbani was propagated in Lahore so Guru Amardas ji said that lahore is now city of amrit

My interpreatation may be not correct so I request to all those who read punjabi to read it themself.

But I found This translation. more upto mark

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥

Punjabi Translation by Prof Sahib Singh ji

ਜੇ ਜਾਮੇ ਨੂੰ ਲਹੂ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਜਾਮਾ ਪਲੀਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ), (ਪਰ) ਜੋ ਬੰਦੇ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਲਹੂ ਪੀਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਹਰਾਮ ਦੀ ਕਮਾਈ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਪਾਕ (ਸਾਫ਼) ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਪਲੀਤ ਮਨ ਨਾਲ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਕਬੂਲ ਹੈ)? ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਮੂੰਹੋਂ ਸਾਫ਼ ਦਿਲ ਨਾਲ ਲੈ, (ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਹੋਰ ਕੰਮ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਿਖਾਵੇ ਹਨ। ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਤੁਸੀ ਕੂੜੇ ਕੰਮ ਹੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋ।੧।
Shalok, First Mehl:If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?O Nanak, recite the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion. You enter other wordly doors and practice false deeds. ||1||


Who sucks human blood? Those that practice adharm. Those who use force on others. Those that practice unrighteousness. Those that lead a life of duality. Those that have not yet fully accepted our Gurus and are fully immersed in the pleasures of Maya. Those who do not practice Guru's instruction with heartfelt devotion. The human as well as the animal are both subjected to force. To carry out these acts is akin to drinking ones blood. On one side they pretend to be Gyaani (person of knowledge) like the Molvi. Todays Sikh is no different. This is all against the fundamental principles of "Dharam di Kirit".


Bani revolves in the bounds of "Dharam di Kirat, Naam Simran, and Wand ke Shako" any translation that does not comply with the above is what Guru Amardas ji, in Anand Sahib refer to as Kachi Bani. Bani that breaks the three fundamental principle of Sikhism as founded by Guru Nanak Dev ji.


If professor Surjit Singh has an incorrect understanding of Bani then are we to follow him like a sheep does another. People change theirviews and interpretation in exchange of fame. Practicing adharm leads to the body becoming impure. It comes back as a physical disease. (Dukh daru sukh rog bhaya, jaan sukh taam na hoe)


A wise one will read between the lines the message given by our Gurus. This ability is only comes about when one done heartfelt simran and by the blessings of our Gurus. I am fully aware that the times are tough on all of us. It is not for all to benefit from the above and therefore I do not say more. One day when you wake up from this illusion one will begin to understand our Gurus message.


May our Gurus have mercy on all.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,706
14,381
75
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
ekmusifir ajnabi ji,
gurfateh.

I look forward to reading the paper you are writing ( to rebutt the essay by Randip Singh ji - you mentioned it somewhere i forget right now... (Guru willing)..btw i do read all your missives...between the lines and over the lines as well as below the lines !!! True SIKHI is LEARNIG..un-learning..and RE-Learning...a continous process...

Regards

Gyani jarnail Singh
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
I look forward to reading the paper you are writing ( to rebutt the essay by Randip Singh ji - you mentioned it somewhere i forget right now... (Guru willing)..btw i do read all your missives...between the lines and over the lines as well as below the lines !!! True SIKHI is LEARNIG..un-learning..and RE-Learning...a continous process...

Regards

Gyani jarnail Singh

This is so true! In discussions like this one there is so much to re-discover. This thread is not the first place where this shabad was visited. The focus on using the hymnto direct behavior is on level of understanding. But in looking at the hymn again and again, there is something remarkable about it that shows two things: the great poetic vision of the Gurus is remarkable; they used poetry to teach us at several levels at once.


The first line is pretty powerful -- there is no "heart" without the Pir, the Husband Lord enshrined within. A person does not have to be a genius to figure out what he is supposed to do after reading this.

ਸਭਨੀ ਘਟੀ ਸਹੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਹ ਬਿਨੁ ਘਟੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
sabhanee ghattee sahu vasai seh bin ghatt n koe ||
God the Cosmic Husband dwells within all hearts; without Him, there is no heart at all.



So what is the treasure we receive if we are virtuous. The next line explains that.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੯॥
naanak thae sohaaganee jinhaa guramukh paragatt hoe ||19||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs are the happy, virtuous soul-brides; the Lord is revealed to them. ||19||


Now the ever-famous and ever-teaching part. Guruji, saying the treasure will never be ours unless we get over ourselves and abandon the false path of pride, and ego.


ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,


ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.



The idea is developed in the next lines.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥
eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||
When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥
sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||


ਨਾਲਿ ਕਿਰਾੜਾ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥
naal kiraarraa dhosathee koorrai koorree paae ||
False is friendship with the false and greedy. False is its foundation.


Now the poetic genius comes in here. Who is this moollah? Whose death is Guruji talking about here? There are two ways to understand this. But coming after the earlier lines, what is Guru Nanak mean by Moollah and death. This is a metaphor. Adding here: After reading what Giani has reported, the metaphor is a metaphor at 3 levels. Powerful.

ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੂਲਿਆ ਆਵੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੨੧॥
maran n jaapai mooliaa aavai kithai thhaae ||21||
O Moollah, no one knows where death shall strike. ||21||


Next Guruji tells us -- this is the price you will pay if we do not walk on his path, give Him our heads.
We have no "intelligence" no "wisdom" of our own. We will never find the path of righteousness without Him. Equipoise will never be ours and we will never find His truth. Adding here again: Is Babar's lessons learned, a lesson for us?

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
giaan heenan agiaan poojaa ||
Without spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance.

ਅੰਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨੨॥
andhh varathaavaa bhaao dhoojaa ||22||
They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality. ||22||



ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
gur bin giaan dhharam bin dhhiaan ||
Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation.


ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਖੀ ਮੂਲੋ ਨ ਬਾਕੀ ॥੨੩॥
sach bin saakhee moolo n baakee ||23||
Without Truth, there is no credit; without capital, there is no balance. ||23||


ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ॥
maanoo ghalai outhee chalai ||
The mortals are sent into the world; then, they arise and depart.

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥
saadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||


Now here is the part that made me think twice, three times, four times. What is Guru Nanak doing here? Is this about a Hindu god and a band of demons -- really? Is he telling a joke: If he is, then Hindus and monkeys and Hindu monkeys do not eat meat. We can see from Giani's report that this could be a metaphor for Babar. We can also see that Guru Nanak is using the story of Raam Chand to emphasize what he was saying earlier about this gur bin giaan dhharam bin dhhiaan || Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation.

and about this
saadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24|| There is no joy in this. ||24||

ਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥
raam jhurai dhal maelavai anthar bal adhhikaar ||
Raam Chand, sad at heart, assembled his army and forces.


ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
banthar kee sainaa saeveeai man than jujh apaar ||
The army of monkeys was at his service; his mind and body became eager for war.


ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥
seethaa lai gaeiaa dhehasiro lashhaman mooou saraap ||
Raawan captured his wife Sita, and Lachhman was cursed to die.


ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥
naanak karathaa karanehaar kar vaekhai thhaap outhhaap ||25||
O Nanak, the Creator Lord is the Doer of all; He watches over all, and destroys what He has created. ||25|| The Lord destroys what He has created. This is an important clue.


ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
man mehi jhoorai raamachandh seethaa lashhaman jog ||
In his mind, Raam Chand mourned for Sita and Lachhman.

ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥
hanavanthar aaraadhhiaa aaeiaa kar sanjog ||
Then, he remembered Hanuman the monkey-god, who came to him.

ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥
bhoolaa dhaith n samajhee thin prabh keeeae kaam ||
The misguided demon did not understand that God is the Doer of deeds.


Point
ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥
naanak vaeparavaahu so kirath n mittee raam ||26||
O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||

The Guru now tells us the outcome of this "struggle". The city of Lahore is another metaphor, used to explain something more spiritual than meat.ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
laahaar sehar jehar kehar savaa pehar ||27|| The city of
Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

There is no way to come to the conclusion that this is about meat, any more than the other shabad is about meat. It is about "the bridal procession of sin" that starts with pride and ego.


Thank you Ekmusafir ji for your contribution. And kds ji for coaxing me to re-read this with your commentary.

Thank you Giani ji for this, These hymns are remarkable for their moral structurs and poetical eloquence. Nowhere else in contemporary literature are the issues in medieval Indian situation comprehended with such clarity or presented in tones of greater urgency. In spite of his destructive role Babar is seen by Guru Nanak to have been an unwitting instrument of the divine Will.

It all makes sense.
 
Oct 14, 2007
3,369
54
Sachkhand

Point
ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥
naanak vaeparavaahu so kirath n mittee raam ||26||
O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||

Respected aad ji,

I am not involved too much in this thread and may ,therefore, be excused if I ask a very pointed question.
Do you , from the core of your heart, believe that above translation can ever be correct. ?
Why should the self existent ['saibhang'] ever act?
His will is enough to create or destroy this creation.
Sorry,I have picked up the line highlighted.
Kindly reply after some time. We are all here.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Sikh80 ji

The translation of that particular line is going to be a problem in English no matter who translates it because it is getting at erasing the unseen will or design of the unseen God. How logically can that which is not seen be erased? This is a problem because the English language is for want of a better expression very "object oriented."

The translation makes sense, captures the intent of the Gurbani, captures the meaning, in my opinion. Expecially after reading what Giani ji has reported in his comments on Babar back a few posts -- and his contribution of the thinking of Harbhans Singh.

These hymns are remarkable for their moral structurs and poetical eloquence. Nowhere else in contemporary literature are the issues in medieval Indian situation comprehended with such clarity or presented in tones of greater urgency. In spite of his destructive role Babar is seen by Guru Nanak to have been an unwitting instrument of the divine Will.

On my lunch break at the office, and can't say more. Have to get back to work. Will try better later tonight.
 
Oct 14, 2007
3,369
54
Sachkhand
Background


W[/FONT]e are blessed that we have got an eternal statute that should govern our lives and live styles should be adopted as per the writs contained in the Granth sahib i.e., the Sabad Guru. It contains pear of wisdom that we are supposed to follow. Seekers after facing difficulties do refer to the commentaries that are current in the current times. It has been an enduring task for all of us as to how to assign the meanings to the various lines and tuks. We do differ at many points and on account of this we are, sometimes, not able to establish the correct meaning that was intended to be conveyed by the Gurus.

One of the reasons that prompted me to undertake this exercise was on account of the fact that there are many metaphors in Bani and the Grammar of the language is different as compared to the present day language.[/FONT]

A[/FONT]n attempt is made to present the basic rules that should be followed by us while arriving at the meaning. Things should have been easier if there were some guidelines issued by the SGPC and the allied bodies. Things would have been simpler if some standardized translations and commentaries are issued by SGPC.[along with allied religious bodies engaged in this process, if any.][/FONT]

H[/FONT]owever, it has not been done so far. There must be some justifiable reasons for this as well; I am not aware of this. The exercise that is being undertaken shall be very lengthy, time consuming and arduous and can be completed with the guidance and continued support of the members.
The sole purpose of this is that we preserve this precious gift of the Lord for posterity in the state of virginity to the extent possible. The English translations have, on mass scale, resulted in distortions but we have no other alternative as anyone can post the translations and get away with the legitimate excuse that some English translation was relied upon.[/FONT]
The gullible seeker is likely to get lost by accepting the translations simply because these are fairly handy.

The following guidelines are only indicative and not comprehensive in any case.[/FONT]

Major guidelines [/FONT]

I.[/FONT]The SGGS itself should always be used to define its own terminology, meanings, symbols, terms etc. that are already clearly defined within the SGGS itself. The external reference or Extrinsic aids in such cases should not be employed unless some absurdity is to be resolved. In normal case the definition as given in the Granth should be preferred.
[/FONT]
II.[/FONT]The proper interpretation of any given WLVS should be determined, not only by that with which it stands immediately connected, but by considering other approved Banis, if any, which have bearing upon the meaning throughout the entire SGGS. Further, the meaning of any given WLVS can only be determined by bringing together all related scriptures that sheds light on that WLVS.[/FONT]

III[/FONT]. [/FONT]Every WLVS will be given as literal an interpretation as possible, unless such a literal interpretation would render the meaning absurd, or bring it into disagreement with other WLVS that also states the things in positive language in the context.[/FONT]

IV. [/FONT]No interpretation should be given to any WLVSbeyond what the[/FONT] fair meaning of the text itself allows[/FONT]. The metaphors should[/FONT] bear a relation to the fair meaning of the text and the context.
[/FONT]
V.[/FONT]All WLVS belonging to any particular philosophy must contain one or more of the peculiar features of the philosophy, by which it may be identified as related/belonging to that philosophy.[/FONT]

VI.[/FONT]The truth of any philosophy should be determined firstly by those WLVS that speak in clear and positive language, and not those that are symbolic or indicative in nature. No inference should be drawn from any symbolic or indicative WLVS that would bring it into contradiction with those which speak unequivocally on the same subject.[/FONT]

VII.[/FONT]
No philosophy should be derived based on a single WLVS of SGGS, a mere inference, or an argument from silence. Any philosophy should be found throughout the entire SGGS. In case there is a conflict the philosophy that is reflected in positive language should be preferred to the one that contains the definition/statement contained in the negative language.[/FONT]


VIII[/FONT]. To the extent possible one should avoid reference to the Extrinsic aids. In case there is a possibility of double meaning the meaning assigned to the text of Granth sahib should get preference over the extrinsic aids.[/FONT]


All that is proposed above is as per the Interpretation of Statutes authored by Maxwell, UK.


B. Extrinsic Aids

Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji.[/FONT]

Other approved Banis [not stated here][/FONT]


Abbreviations

SGGS=Sri Guru Granth Sahib[/FONT]
WLVS= words/lines and/Verses/shabads[/FONT]
OSA=other/second/another meanings[/FONT]

I have drafted the above with due care and observing due diligence. However, one can always improve upon when the guidance is received. [/FONT]

One is free to post the comments on these if one has formed a view. It shall be meaningful if we have some major areas of convergence/divergence.




Sorry, it is not properly edited for spellings/grammar.

[ after posting and re-reading I realize that there are lot of mistakes, shall try to rectify by tomorrow at this time only. Pardon me for inconvenience.]


May He bless Us All
[/FONT]
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Sikh80 ji

You are the only person who can tempt me away from my duties. Two questions based on what you have written:


If you read 4 English translations -- they will all be different. And if you look closely, they also reveal the biases of the translators.

When an English speaker learns to translate for himself, and then translates -- Will his/her translation be biased according to his/her understanding?

When a Punjabi speaker translates (from Gurbani to modern Punjabi) -- Will his/her translation be biased according to his/her understanding?

Translation results in vichaar and vichaar results in translation. There are no objective indicators for a good vichaar, anymore than there are objective indicators to decide who is at a high level and who is at a low level of spiritual development. So we have to assume that the progress of a "sangat" working together and learning together is a good experience for both the advanced and the beginner. Teach to learn and learn to teach. Forgive me.
 
Oct 14, 2007
3,369
54
Sachkhand
Respected add ji,

it has nothing to do with the present thread. It would be an ongoing exercise for all of us till we are here on this forum.

Kindly have your snacks and pizaas.

[ I am also in the process of winding up and shall be shifting to a new apartment in a new city. Shall have to get my 'net' connection disconnected. Shall miss you all for some time. God willing, shall be in touch with you again]

Regards
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Respected add ji,

it has nothing to do with the present thread. It would be an ongoing exercise for all of us till we are here on this forum.

Kindly have your snacks and pizaas.

[ I am also in the process of winding up and shall be shifting to a new apartment in a new city. Shall have to get my 'net' connection disconnected. Shall miss you all for some time. God willing, shall be in touch with you again]

Regards

Well you know we are going to miss you -- all of us -- and me too!

Your idea, now that you have clarified the scope, would actually make a terrific thread for the forum. The problem of translations comes up very frequently, and there are forum members who have professional expertise in this area -- in other words, they work with the problem of translations of Gurbani on a daily basis as part of their professional work and/or gurmat training of others.

Wonder how to get such a thread started. How to involve those forum members. It would be a lot of extra work for them.

:)
 

Archived_member2

Archived
Jul 18, 2004
766
3
Germany
Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Gurdev's Vaak is ABwiKAw kw kuTw bkrw Kwxw ]
abhaakhiaa kaa kut(h)aa bakaraa khaanaa ||
The translation provided is 'They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,"

This is what happens when people understand translations. One may read all the posts of this thread. He finds the translated Sikhs showing their expertise.

May I ask what does 'abhaakhiaa' means? Knowing how the translators reached the conclusion to call 'kuthaa' 'the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers' will be interesting.

*****

I may be leaving for a Yaatraa for few days hoping to meet some on the way or at Manzil.


Balbir Singh
 

❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM

Top