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simpy

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Mar 28, 2006
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Great effort...........:up:

har kam sharatan te karan di aadat hai na par:).........list will be ready soon........
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Starting the list-------- needs refining-- i am only talking loud..........please feel free to suggest corrections and editing................

1. Educate people about gender equality in such a way -----

so that we can encourage people to stop
a.discrimination, violence and torture within the family---like no female infanticide, rape, verbal and physical abuse,
b.discrimination at work place--like equal opportunity, equal pay........
----
----
----


2. Sikhs must come forward--men and women in large numbers and have our SGPC change the stupid tradition at Sri darbar Sahib and allow women to do Kirtan and do Palki Seva---- AND-- organize the seva and matha tekna services so that it is easily approachable... like normal human beings... There is no dearth of money... many things can be done if we want-- where there is a will there is a way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i guess we may need to write the upper paragraph little nicely... this is my raw thought................
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
List with new update--

Starting the list-------- needs refining-- i am only talking loud..........please feel free to suggest corrections and editing................

1. Educate people about gender equality in such a way -----

so that we can encourage people to stop
a.discrimination, violence and torture within the family---like no female infanticide, rape, verbal and physical abuse,
b.discrimination at work place--like equal opportunity, equal pay........
----
----
----

The way of education should be like this that we are able to win their hearts-- so they actually use that knowledge, do their homework and actually be productive in this matter.......
like--show them how the society is when women are degraded(in whatever sense we are talking about) and then show them the picture how it will be if they are treated equal-- certainly a well treated person will do much much better-- if our daughters/daughter-in-laws/wives/mothers/aunts/sisters/// are getting good treatment, they will certainly excell in every arena...... and actually help them understand how it is going to help them as many people just have this obsession that if a girl/woman excells--it can be somehow not good-- we need to get this mentality changed--





2. Sikhs must come forward--men and women in large numbers and have our SGPC change the stupid tradition at Sri darbar Sahib and allow women to do Kirtan and do Palki Seva---- AND-- organize the langar hall entrance, seva and matha tekna services so that it is easily approachable... like normal human beings... (i have seen women getting mistreated even in langar lines the way they have now.....There is no dearth of money... many things can be done if we want-- where there is a will there is a way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. Educating Women--- about their status, mostly they themselves dont understand that they are in a bad situation... they just linger on---- or even know that there is help avalaible out there.............
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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Narayanjot ji,

Thank you for posting this!

Yes, we can be very proud that
Jasvinder Sanghera ji is one of us and of this tremendous work she is doing.

I wish there some way we could throw the whole concept of "izzat" into the depths of the sea. No, wait, that would pollute the sea. Let's shoot it into the sun where it could be harmlessly destroyed.

This reminds me of something my Dad used to say, "Integrity above honour."

"Izzat" (honour) is primarily social and varies from culture to culture and from time to time. So honour is relative and has nothing to do with ultimate morality. It does a lot of damage, especially to those who do not or cannot accept the mores of the culture in which they live.

Integrity is personal. It tells me within myself what is right and what is wrong. It is unchanging wherever and whenever I may be. To have integrity is to be true to my own inner self. To live with integrity is truthful living.

This lady personifies integrity. We can all learn from her.

Chardi kala!

Mai ji and Narayanjot ji

I am quite surprised by the people who are saying that jasvinder sanghera is one of us and we are proud of her as sikh woman.In her personal life she was
no where close to be a good woman forget about being a good sikh .

----------------------------------------------------------------------
sikhchic.com | The Art and Culture of the Diaspora | Shame

Although Jassey certainly seems like the model husband and father, Jas cheats on him with a man she meets while at a disco with Lucy. Surjit soon reveals himself as a violent control freak. When he breaks her nose with a vicious punch, Jas confesses everything to Jassey and begs for his help in ending the affair.

Hoping for a fresh start, Jas and Jassey move back to Derby. A long-awaited phone call from Jas' mother arrives, but it is only to relay atrocious news: Robina, trapped for years in an horrendously abusive marriage, has committed suicide by self-immolation with paraffin. Jas is not allowed to enter her parent's home or participate in the family's mourning.

Jas' half-hearted attempts to hold her marriage together for Lisa's sake soon fizzle out when she meets Rajvinder and, in short order, starts another affair and moves in with him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

She cheated twice on her role model husband.So my question is this type of woman is going to be we are proud of?

Certainly what she is doing is good.but she is herself is no where close to be a role model for women
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Kanwardeep Singh ji,

It is quite possible that I wrote without having all the facts. At this point, I have no idea what is true about this particular woman. If she is truly lacking in morals, I retract the statement of her having integrity and any pride we can take in her as a Sikh, although I still applaud the work she is doing.

However, I stand by what I wrote about honour "izzat" and integrity. This whole izzat thing has got to go!
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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Kanwardeep Singh ji,

It is quite possible that I wrote without having all the facts. At this point, I have no idea what is true about this particular woman. If she is truly lacking in morals, I retract the statement of her having integrity and any pride we can take in her as a Sikh, although I still applaud the work she is doing.

However, I stand by what I wrote about honour "izzat" and integrity. This whole izzat thing has got to go!

Mai ji

I have seen glorifying jasvinder sanghera on some sikh site's despite knowing the facts.She was hardly a victim of forced marriage but a victim of Lust and her own desire's.In her story The main victim I see is jassey her boyfriend and husband who unlike many Bfs did not used and threw her and infact fulfilled all his duties as good husband and even forgave her on her first affair
He is really great man .But instead of returning her love and care she cheated her not once but twice and nowhere i saw that she is saying that she regretted her decision.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Kanwardeep Singh ji

The point pursued in these most recent postings has pertained to healing wounds inflicted by social indifference to women and to men.


"so that we can encourage people to stop
a.discrimination, violence and torture within the family---like no female infanticide, rape, verbal and physical abuse,
b.discrimination at work place--like equal opportunity, equal pay......
" (simpy ji)


When a person is able to make headway -- and her Pride of Britain Award was conferred because she has made headway in addressing such problems, then she/anyone is doing important work - that is what I applaud. When I received help from an infectious disease specialist years ago for a rare infection, my confidence in him was based on his reputation as a "healer." I have no idea whether or not he was faithful to his wife. Would that make a difference?

I too have questions. Many of us have "sinned" in one way or the other. For how long must our wrongful deeds haunt us? Is there never a time when our wrongful deeds are off the table for criticism? I hope so for my own sake. How many of us have spotless records? Is reaching out to humanity a way to recover our virtue? How are we judged at the hour of death? And by whom? Against what measuring stick?
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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When a person is able to make headway -- and her Pride of Britain Award was conferred because she has made headway in addressing such problems, then she/anyone is doing important work - that is what I applaud. When I received help from an infectious disease specialist years ago for a rare infection, my confidence in him was based on his reputation as a "healer." I have no idea whether or not he was faithful to his wife. Would that make a differenc

Narayanjot ji

This thread is Kaur power not women power I am sure there are other non sikh women too which are doing great work but there name is not mentioned in this thread.The case of scientists ,doctors are different we do appreciate them for their work but if they had something wrong in personal life we don't see them as role models.As i said above what she is doing is good.What wrong i see here is that she is portraying herself as victim of forced marriage which she hardly is.

I too have questions. Many of us have "sinned" in one way or the other. For how long must our wrongful deeds haunt us? Is there never a time when our wrongful deeds are off the table for criticism? I hope so for my own sake. How many of us have spotless records? Is reaching out to humanity a way to recover our virtue? How are we judged at the hour of death? And by whom? Against what measuring stick?

It depends on what type of mistakes we did.For example if a man was a womaniser and used women as tissue paper and never respected them and by the time he is 60 and he changes himself and start preaching to youngsters to see women as their mothers,and sisters then how many of youngsters will take his advice seriously?Also as i said above nowhere she said that she committed a mistake.If our mistakes are too big then we can't become a role model for society or preach others to be good when we never did that
by ourself.I am not against jasvinder sanghera all I am against is her portrayal.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
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Thank you for your clarification Kanwardeep Singh ji. We may have to agree to disagree. Are we not praising a Sikh, a Kaur, for her outreach to victimized women and victimized men? Or are we on the brink of disqualifying her as a Sikh? I am comfortable with the first question. Not with the second.

The question of whether virtue is decided according to our deeds is a question that philosophers have debated over centuries. The question will continue to be debated as long as there are human beings. Who among us is perfect?
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Kanwardeep ji,

Guru fateh.

Please forgive my bluntness but I am a bit bewildered at your logic and rationale which seems to have an underlying bias based on some sort of "moral values" which have no redemeption, what we call " KALANK" ( morally condemed by the society forever) in Indian culture. A person becomes an outcast for the rest of her life.


You write to Mai ji:

Mai ji

I have seen glorifying jasvinder sanghera on some sikh site's despite knowing the facts.She was hardly a victim of forced marriage but a victim of Lust and her own desire's.In her story The main victim I see is jassey her boyfriend and husband who unlike many Bfs did not used and threw her and infact fulfilled all his duties as good husband and even forgave her on her first affair
He is really great man .But instead of returning her love and care she cheated her not once but twice and nowhere i saw that she is saying that she regretted her decision.
No one is glorifying her misbehaviour or her immoral past but what she is doing now to help others despite her own blemished past which it seems must have taught her a lesson to be on this crusade.

How do you know she does not feel regretful? What kind of these demands are you trying to impose on her? For what?

As Narayanjot ji said, we all make mistakes and we all have skeletons in the closet not for the sake of Halloween but our past always clings on to us like ticks, especially when we have done wrong things in life.

But isn't that the true essence of turning out to be a lotus from the muck that Gurbani teaches us about?

Then you write to Narayanjot ji,

This thread is Kaur power not women power I am sure there are other non sikh women too which are doing great work but there name is not mentioned in this thread.The case of scientists ,doctors are different we do appreciate them for their work but if they had something wrong in personal life we don't see them as role models.As i said above what she is doing is good.What wrong i see here is that she is portraying herself as victim of forced marriage which she hardly is.
Aren't Kaurs women? I do not see the distinction you are trying to make and under what reasoning? Yes, there are all kinds of women from all walks of lives and faiths that have done good for the fellow women.

I have no idea what the word Role Model means in your mind? Does the person have to be utopically perfect from her birth to have that, shall we call the title or a person who has been through "hell", by her own doing and then come out of it to help others? What is wrong with that?

It depends on what type of mistakes we did.For example if a man was a womaniser and used women as tissue paper and never respected them and by the time he is 60 and he changes himself and start preaching to youngsters to see women as their mothers,and sisters then how many of youngsters will take his advice seriously?Also as i said above nowhere she said that she committed a mistake.If our mistakes are too big then we can't become a role model for society or preach others to be good when we never did that
by ourself.I am not against jasvinder sanghera all I am against is her portrayal.
You are totally wrong with your reasoning, your assessment and your prophecy above. In the US, Ex-criminals who were Drug dealers, Molesters, murderers on parole go to different schools and tell the kids their stories to teach them not to become and do what they had done in the past. What better example than these " role models" who admit that they have done many wrong things and the price they had to pay for those crimes.

Sikhi is about forgiveness and reintegration not about out-casting people who have done something wrong. If we use that yard stick, then we ourselves will be the first culprits of our own wrong doings.


Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Oct 5, 2006
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I have been thinking about these three things to accomplish all day. This has been neither easy or pleasant for me. Here is what I have come up with.

1. First and foremost, we must end the physical violence against women and girls in our community. I will start at the most basic level. Our husbands, sons, fathers simply must stop raising their hands against us. Quit hitting us! We must stop pretending that this physical battering does not happen. It does and it happens often. We must not be ashamed or afraid to do whatever it takes, including calling the police to put an end to it. Our daughters need to be taught to protect themselves. Gatka is a wonderful choice. I admit that it shames me that this is a problem, but it is, a huge problem, rarely acknowledged. All our other male/female problems are dwarfed when held up to this gross physical violence.

There is an element of shame among us if we are battered. There is an assumption that we must somehow deserve it. This is a nonsense attitude that we must change. No one deserves this treatment.

And I haven't yet mentioned the murder of our girl children, whether before or after birth.

I have been told that first people's minds must be changed, then the behaviour will change of itself. What are we to do until the men change their minds, live with black eyes, broken bones, and the feeling of shame that we somehow deserve this, that we bring it upon ourselves?

This idea that the attitudes of the men must first change is a fallacy. I have seen it in the United States civil rights movement. When the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 (I think I have the year right) was passed, few Americans believed in anything approaching racial equality. Still, the law was changed and as behaviours changed, attitudes changed, too. Who in 1964 would have believed Barack Obama could be elected President less than 50 years later? (I have been trying to think of something as dramatic in Canada and India and the UK, but nothing comes to mind.)

Likewise, if we women start insisting on the laws against domestic violence be enforced, they will be enforced. And the men will stop hitting us, if only because jail is unpleasant. I could go on and on, but I won't.

The other goals we need to attain pale in significance next to this one. Yes, I want to hear Kaurs singing kirtan at Harinmandir Sahib. Yes, we ought to perform every sewa an individual woman is physically capable of performing. Yes, we should be treated as equals. Yes, yes, yes.

But until our physical safety is assured, these other things are distractions.

I say, let us focus on ending physical domestic violence. Once we make some headway there, I'll talk about numbers two and three.

And let us do it always with chardi kala!
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Oct 5, 2006
1,755
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Kanwardeep ji,

My last word (I hope) about Jasvinder Sanghera.

What right do I have to judge her? My own life would not bear close inspection. If you'd like the whole list, ask and I'll post it here in SPN. I make no secret of my misdeeds. The fact that I did these things in the madness following 1984 is no excuse. A Khalsa doesn't make excuses. If you step off a cliff, gravity doesn't care why you did it.

I stepped off a cliff and I fell. And my Guru ji caught me in kind and loving arms. I am not uninjured; I am given the opportunity to recover. I am doing my best to use that opportunity wisely. I understand something of the Kirpaa of Vaheguru.

I cannot judge this lady. I do not know what is in her heart. That is between her and her Guru. And possibly the Panj Piyare. I can only say that she is doing a very good work.
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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Aren't Kaurs women? I do not see the distinction you are trying to make and under what reasoning? Yes, there are all kinds of women from all walks of lives and faiths that have done good for the fellow women.

I have no idea what the word Role Model means in your mind? Does the person have to be utopically perfect from her birth to have that, shall we call the title or a person who has been through "hell", by her own doing and then come out of it to help others? What is wrong with tha

Tejwant ji

Kaurs are women But can we also say the same thing about men when we use thread like singh power and we only only put the cases and stories of Puran gursikh men.Why don't we put stories of Non sikh men or clean shaven sikh men which are doing good.Let me ask
you a question Yuvraj singh (cricketer) and Abhinav Bindra(gold medalist) are both from clean shaven sikh and have accomplished much in sports but did the entire sikh community recognise their acheivements the answer is no.Infact more hate posts on sikh sites I read about them than being happy.So sikh community never recognised contribution of clean shaven sikh men.so why do we have double standards when it comes to women Why we start using liberal logic when it comes to women.Is it not the double standard which we are talking and which we themself are using.

You are totally wrong with your reasoning, your assessment and your prophecy above. In the US, Ex-criminals who were Drug dealers, Molesters, murderers on parole go to different schools and tell the kids their stories to teach them not to become and do what they had done in the past. What better example than these " role models" who admit that they have done many wrong things and the price they had to pay for those crimes.

Sikhi is about forgiveness and reintegration not about out-casting people who have done something wrong. If we use that yard stick, then we ourselves will be the first culprits of our own wrong doings.

The criminals those actually preaches to youngsters do recognise their mistake and the problems they faced in lives and how it ruined their life because the mistakes they committed themselves.
They also face punishment for their wrong deeds.so preaching without recognising
your mistake and punishment is worthless
Now my question is Jasvinder herself gave her husband mental torture by cheating twice.So tell me where she is recognising her mistakes or preaching other women not to cheat.I have read many discussions on Jasvinder sanghera even the hard core supporter of her did not put any quote of her where she is even regretting her mistake.

You said that sikhi is about forgiveness but forgiveness is one of the very cunning weapon which people used.So we should be careful about forgiveness.For every one real forgiveness there are 99 people who just use it as weapon.I am sure you have heard of muahwara( 900 choohe khaake billi haj ko chali)
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
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Kanwardeep ji,

My last word (I hope) about Jasvinder Sanghera.

What right do I have to judge her? My own life would not bear close inspection. If you'd like the whole list, ask and I'll post it here in SPN. I make no secret of my misdeeds. The fact that I did these things in the madness following 1984 is no excuse. A Khalsa doesn't make excuses. If you step off a cliff, gravity doesn't care why you did it.

I stepped off a cliff and I fell. And my Guru ji caught me in kind and loving arms. I am not uninjured; I am given the opportunity to recover. I am doing my best to use that opportunity wisely. I understand something of the Kirpaa of Vaheguru.

I cannot judge this lady. I do not know what is in her heart. That is between her and her Guru. And possibly the Panj Piyare. I can only say that she is doing a very good work.

Mai ji

I am not asking anyone to judge her neither I am saying she should be outcasted.The only thing I am against is Her portrayal .I know you also Post on thelangarhall.com and you can see there are already 3 topics dedicated to her.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Kanwardeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

This will be my last post to you on this subject because things are becoming argumentative rather than a learning process in an interactive manner. It is very clear that you have some inherent bias that makes you not see others' viewpoint nor does it give you any leeway for forgiveness and redemption no matter how bad the person has been in the past.

You write:

Kaurs are women But can we also say the same thing about men when we use thread like singh power and we only only put the cases and stories of Puran gursikh men.Why don't we put stories of Non sikh men or clean shaven sikh men which are doing good.
Kanwardeep ji,

You should ask that question to yourself. You often put news and articles here about many subjects. Why haven't you made an effort so far putting the stories of non-Sikh men or dirty shaven Sikh men?


Let me ask you a question Yuvraj singh (cricketer) and Abhinav Bindra(gold medalist) are both from clean shaven sikh and have accomplished much in sports but did the entire sikh community recognise their acheivements the answer is no.
Do they call themselves Sikhs? Are their parents puran GurSikhs or dirty shaven like them. I know that Abhinav Bindra, who does not even use the name Singh and his first name sounds more like a Hindu name never claimed himself a Sikh in any of his interviews after he won the gold medal in the Beijing Olympics. In fact his father who is also a dirty shaven was caught in some business scandal. Do Yuvraj Singh or Dhoni call themselves Sikhs? Are their parents visible Sikhs? Please post some news about them so I can learn about their Sikh views.

Infact more hate posts on sikh sites I read about them than being happy.So sikh community never recognised contribution of clean shaven sikh men.so why do we have double standards when it comes to women Why we start using liberal logic when it comes to women.Is it not the double standard which we are talking and which we themself are using.
You have the power to combat that by posting the news that prove otherwise.

The criminals those actually preaches to youngsters do recognise their mistake and the problems they faced in lives and how it ruined their life because the mistakes they committed themselves.
They also face punishment for their wrong deeds.so preaching without recognising your mistake and punishment is worthless
So, what kind of punishment in your opinion does Jasvinder Sanghera deserve for her immoral transgression in the past? If you gave her that punishment then would you be fine for what she is doing now?

Let us take other examples. Magic Johnson, one of the greatest basketball player in the NBA from my team, The Lakers, caught HIV because of his sleeping with many many women while being married. So, do you think he is a bad spokesperson for HIV for the kids because he did not get any punishment and he was even more immoral if one measures with your morality yardstick than Jaswinder? ( btw, his net worth is almost a billion dollar today with his business ventures after he left the game of basketball).

There are many ex baseball players who chewed tobacco and got mouth cancer and due to this some of them have disfigured faces and they have become role models for the kids and tell them what not to do as Magic Johnson is doing for the HIV virus.

Your arguments seems more circular and parochial where you just want to prove that only your viewpoint is the right one and that is the only one that matters rather than debating on the merits of points presented by others where all can learn.

Now my question is Jasvinder herself gave her husband mental torture by cheating twice.So tell me where she is recognising her mistakes or preaching other women not to cheat.I have read many discussions on Jasvinder sanghera even the hard core supporter of her did not put any quote of her where she is even regretting her mistake.
Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what point are you trying to make by repeating the above again and again in every post of yours. I have no idea whether she has recognised her mistakes or not. That is not for me to judge or demand from her when she should. I am sure she will when she feels ready for that. What kind of time ultimatum did you have in mind for Jaswinder to recognise her past mistakes?

You said that sikhi is about forgiveness but forgiveness is one of the very cunning weapon which people used.So we should be careful about forgiveness.For every one real forgiveness there are 99 people who just use it as weapon.I am sure you have heard of muahwara( 900 choohe khaake billi haj ko chali)
You are doing nothing in the above but being a "moral judge" here for the reasons only known to you, which is sad.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

tony

SPNer
Feb 20, 2006
150
84
nottingham england
I'm with Narayanjot ji. This other woman is distracting us. Let's get back to the creation of this list of things to do. OMG

To reiterate my position, I feel that physical, domestic violence is such a large and pervasive problem that we ought first to deal with that, then move on to other issues.

And let us do this with chardi kala! Our purpose is to uplift our sister Kaurs, not to degrade our brother Singhs. :up:

:ice:
you should read Jasvinders second book "Daughters of shame" before citing her as a distraction, She is years ahead of you on the subject of domestic violence. The list you wish to create is already being fought by someone who in my mind is a real Sikh, someone who fights oppression and gives women from any religion the right to chose their own way of life, She is a Sikh who has saved many lives, Her tainted past is more than wiped clean by the work she is doing. You may be suprised at how many sisters are involved in the suffering, it aint just the men,
Jasvinder helped the forced marriage bill go to parliament, in 2007 she recieved the women of the year award, best magazines bravest women award, and the inspiration award for women 2008. She was also made an honourary doctor of the university of Derby in 2008. Hows that for bigging up the Kaurs.
Tony (the dirty shaven Sikh)
P.S read her first book "Shame" as well
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Oct 5, 2006
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British Columbia, Canada
you should read Jasvinders second book "Daughters of shame" before citing her as a distraction, She is years ahead of you on the subject of domestic violence. The list you wish to create is already being fought by someone who in my mind is a real Sikh, someone who fights oppression and gives women from any religion the right to chose their own way of life, She is a Sikh who has saved many lives, Her tainted past is more than wiped clean by the work she is doing. You may be suprised at how many sisters are involved in the suffering, it aint just the men,
Jasvinder helped the forced marriage bill go to parliament, in 2007 she recieved the women of the year award, best magazines bravest women award, and the inspiration award for women 2008. She was also made an honourary doctor of the university of Derby in 2008. Hows that for bigging up the Kaurs.
Tony (the dirty shaven Sikh)
P.S read her first book "Shame" as well

Tony ji,

I miswrote.:whisling:

I did not mean to say that she is a distraction; I meant that arguing about her past is a distraction. Please forgive me for my sloppy wording.
 

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