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Judaism Judaism & Sikhi

spnadmin

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I have been ill today and this thread has been most enjoyable.

I found 2 other videos related to Hassidic weddings. The one is the mitzvah tantz (thanks akiva ji) of husband and wife in the Sanz-Klausenburg Hassidic dynasty. The wedding is in Israel. After bride and groom dance, men dance. You can see the women who are close family members sitting to the side enjoying the tantz.

Sanz Klausenburg Wedding In Israel 2009 Part 27 - YouTube

The second video, again a marriage dance, is from the wedding of the son of Reb Ben Tzion Hershkowitz. Also of the Sanz-Klausenberg dynasty

Hasidic Dance at Wedding - YouTube
 
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spnadmin

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TroVeCatBui ji

Thanks for your interesting finds on the net. The 2 articles are way off-topic for this thread which has already gone off-topic to some extent.

I checked them and found that the article titles and article content cannot decide whether Japan and Israel are being compared, Jews and Japan are being compared (a people compared to a country??????) or some combination of the two. Let's stay on the Jewish/Sikh comparisons for now.
 
Feb 23, 2012
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Well, I am surprised to find this thread back :mundahug:

In furtherance of what I was saying in the initial post, Jewish mysticism - whether Kabbalah or of the Hasidic kind - has long held a fascination over me.

I used to be rather obsessed with Judaism in general. I own a Jewish Publication Society translation of the entire Tanakh with commentary. I also have read the Pirke Avot (sayings of the Fathers) section of the Talmud. Then, I have looked into Second Temple Judaism at the time of Jesus. The Essenes and Philo's Hellenistic interpretation of Judaism are also interesting subjects for historical study in their own right....

Hasidic Judaism was founded by a man called The Baal Shem Tov (May 22, 1760) in Poland, also known by the name Besht. He was a great mystical Rabbi who saw God in everything he did and everywhere around him.

One of his most salient teachings was a kind of religious panentheism that emphasised the omnipresence of God. Martin Buber, a great 20th century Jewish philosopher and mystic, describes this in his work, "The Way of Man according to the teachings of Hasidim":

"...In most systems of belief the believer considers that he can achieve a perfect relationship to God by renouncing the world of the senses and overcoming his own natural being. Not so the hasid. Certainly, “cleaving” unto God is to him the highest aim of the human person, but to achieve it he is not required to abandon the external and internal reality of earthly being, but to affirm it in its true, God-oriented essence and thus so to transform it that he can offer it up to God.

Hasidism is no pantheism. It teaches the absolute transcendence of God, but as combined with his conditioned immanence. The world is an irradiation of God, but as it is endowed with an independence of existence and striving, it is apt, always and everywhere, to form a crust around itself. Thus, a divine spark lives in every thing and being, but each such spark is enclosed by an isolating shell. Only man can liberate it and re-join it with the Origin: by holding holy converse with the thing and using it in a holy manner, that is, so that his intention in doing so remains directed towards God’s transcendence. Thus the divine immanence emerges from the exile of the “shells.”

But also in man, in every man, is a force divine. And in man far more than in all other beings it can pervert itself, can be misused by himself. This happens if he, instead of directing it towards its origin, allows it to run directionless and seize at everything that offers itself to it; instead of hallowing passion, he makes it evil. But here, too, a way to redemption is open: he who with the entire force of his being “turns” to God, lifts at this his point of the universe the divine immanence out of its debasement, which he has caused.

The task of man, of every man, according to hasidic teaching, is to affirm for God’s sake the world and himself and by this very means to transform both..."

- Martin Buber (1878 – 1965), Austrian Jewish philosopher & mystic

This is also expressed by the idea of Devekut, or communion between God and man, as the Baal Shem Tov himself explained:


"...Man must always bear in mind that God is omnipresent and is always with him; that God is, so to speak, the most subtle matter everywhere diffused….Let man realize that when he is looking at material things he is in reality gazing at the image of the Deity which is present in all things. With this in mind man will always serve God even in small matters..."

- Baal Shem Tov (May 22, 1760), Polish Jewish mystic, rabbi & founder of Hasidic Judaism

Hence why Besht emphasised that God is to be found in "small things" ie in daily life, in the most menial affairs of the day.

For Hasids the Torah, the Law, is a source of endless intoxicating joy. The word for joy in Hebrew is simcha - for Hasids it signifies a "joy in the moment", in the now, a fully-present joy.

Hasids are therefore well-known for their ecstatic dancing.

I wonder if Devekut could have similarities to the Sikh consonance with creation?
 
Feb 23, 2012
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Not to be trollish but if you look hard enough you can find similarities between apples and oranges.

Well, in the end aren't apples and oranges both "fruit"? So there is an underlying identity there even though they look and are very different in kind.

Given that you have said that and weddings have been heavily mentioned in this thread, I cannot resist this youtube clip from the film, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" which expresses my meaning nicely:


In the end, we all fruit... - YouTube


Interfaith dialogue is not true dialogue if differences are ignored. Then does it simply becomes sweet-mouthed lip service rather than a heart-to-heart dialogue. Sometimes it is only when differing opinions are put forth that a "spark" can be born ie

"...For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark..."

- Pope John XXIII, AD PETRI CATHEDRAM (On Truth, Unity and Peace), 1959


If we all simply "agree" then there can be no discussion. It would get quickly boring not to mention it turning into something very dishonest.

Hence why I must ultimately thank Spnadmin for not allowing me to veer too far towards the extreme in my passion for finding commonalities between faiths:kaurkhalsaflagred:

Nevertheless while Sikhi is an apple and Judaism an orange, both religions are fruit - Jews & Sikhs both stand before the one great, common mystery of life, suffering, death, reality, God and so forth. Both Jews and Sikhs are seekers after truth.

We are all so different in our rich diversity, yet also remarkably one. Diversity and difference need not equal disharmony.

Mysticism is in the end a human experience, not a Sikh, Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Buddhist one - even though the religious formation of the mystics and their dedication to their own path is pivotal in understanding them. Hence we can always find great men and women of vision in various religions who will embracing what is their own reach out beyond the confines of their own faith and touch upon a universal experience common to all.

Human nature is one, in the end just like apples and organs share a oneness in their identity as fruit.

The Gurus clearly discerned this in the likes of Kabir ji, one of the greatest mystics in history, as well as other Bhagats of the Granth from the Hindu or Sufi traditions.
 
Feb 23, 2012
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What is the underlying identity, Vouthon ji? I fail to see it.

The underlying unity is that every religious experience is a human experience. We are not human beings have a spiritual experience but spiritual beings sharing in a human experience. Every human being has the same body make-up, we breathe the same air, inhabit the same earth and have one, common human nature. Therefore we often ask the same questions about life because ultimately we all, at the basic level, want and need the same things. Everyone who has a sincere search for truth may take a different path and find different answers, however in the end we are fulfilling some basic instinct within us which is naturally oriented towards the transcendent, God or whatever one wishes to call "it".

I am not speaking of a unity of religion in terms of the doctrine, beliefs and practices that have developed; which can and do all differ to lesser or greater degrees but rather a unity of seekers after truth united before a great mystery in which we all participate in and share in.

I am speaking of human persons who belong to religions, such as mystics and sages, rather than those religions taken in themselves as philosophical systems and institutions.

On the former level I do see unity, in the latter I see varying degrees of similarities and differences depending on the cultural context, different languages, ideas, speculations and doctrines of the world religions.

There is unity in our common humanity, which in the specific and distinct doctrinal peculiarity of the Judaeo-Christian tradition is expressed through the belief that we are all "made in the image of God" and that this image gives us a basic oneness over and above any distinctions of class, gender, race or religion. Other religions and humanistic philosophies stress this fundamental unity using different theology from the "image" one utilized by the Bible.

There is a Vatican II document that expresses somewhat my meaning, if it is ok to quote it:

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.(1) One also is their final goal, God...

Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good...? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness?...What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense...

Other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men..."

- Nostra Aetate (1965)

I agree with the above in essence when it suggests that there is a fundamental unity of human persons, no matter what religion they profess, at a basic level even if the paths ultimately taken and the answers found differ. And note that the Catholic document above is not in any way syncretic. It recognises that other religions "differ in many respects from the [beliefs] she [the Church] holds and sets forth" but also attunes itself to these religions being a different yet genuine reflection of that "Truth", that Supreme "it" which "enlightens all men" and unifies us, both our common human nature and our thirst for "that hidden force" that some wisdom streams have identified as the Supreme Being. I see this, personally, as significant.

Therefore I think that people of all religions and beliefs can have something meaningful to teach me about how I am to live my life in the most fulfilled manner on this earth, because such people have through the aid of their own religion, often spent many years searching for meaning and plumbing the depths of human existence. I can therefore often see a brother/sister in spirit from another religion and take something meaningful from what they say, even when I do not believe entirely in their religious worldview.

I see religion as satisfying a similar need in human nature whatever manifestation it takes.

Ambarsaria ji also said something very enlightening on another thread that I heartily applaud:

I believe all religions start with wisdom. The wisdom continues to accumulate till a point of crystallization is reached whereby someone determines it is important to protect what has developed...For sure at initial wisdom level much synergistic between various streams of wisdom.

Speaking of synergy at a fundamental wisdom level is also close to my meaning.

In the Guru Granth Sahib ji is not some poetry composed by non-Sikhs such as Kabir ji as well as other Hindu and Sufi mystics included in the Granth? I know of no other religion that has been so eclectic in its choice of texts within its canon scripture.

Therefore one can only conclude that despite Hinduism and Islam having very different beliefs from Sikhi in key respects, the Gurus recognised the wisdom in their writings and an underlying unity of human experience and insight into human nature, such that they embraced their work within the body of the Granth.

I can discern in different religions at their root the same thirst for meaning and fulfilment that lies within me. I can therefore embrace insights from their writings and members of these faiths, which exhibit that common, underlying human "wisdom" or "experience" from which religion grows - while not derogating anything from the commitment I have to my own religion and its distinctness from others.
 
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spnadmin

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The thread is not about the "fundamental unity of all human beings." If it were then we would be saying all religions are the same. We already know where that leads us.

I have to go back to Linzer ji's point. If we try hard enough we will find a list of things that make apples and oranges the same. Apples and oranges are both fruit that is true. But they are not the same. Points of comparison are less informative than fundamental differences.

No matter if a bridegroom and bride are hold onto a scarf in both Hassidic and Sikh weddings. The meaning of the scarf is different. The definitions of marriage are vastly different. In Judaism man and woman are joined as one. In Sikhi, man and woman are joined with the One. In either case the relationship of human kind with the Creator is different, essentially different. And that is good. Let's honor it.

How Judaism and Sikhism are different is going to tell us much more about both. When we erase the fundamental differences then both disappear. Neither exists. That has to be one of the greatest atrocities laid upon human beings... and to both Jews and Sikhs ... yes we have this in common too... our religious identities have been threatened for centuries by overt violence and genocide and by the more "benign" but equally insidious attempts at assimilation by politics and culture. And by spokesmen who cannot seem to bear the idea that different is not a dirty word.

Erasure of differences never leads to peace, understanding and acceptance. It always leads to a people feeling themselves to be the earth's b a s t a r d children, disinherited and resentful. It breeds a bunker mentality that in history tends to erupt as armed conflict.
 
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Feb 23, 2012
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Points of comparison are less informative than fundamental differences.

This is where I, on a purely personal level, must give my own qualified disagreement (by qualified I mean disagree with you partially rather than wholly). I think that both points of comparison and fundamental differences can be mutually and equally informative.

I, of course, see the necessity of understanding our differences and being able to respect the different opinions of others. That is after all what democratic values are supposed to teach you to have, a just regard for the opinions of others that differ from your own. Nevertheless society and people in general also need shared values. In society we agree on a code of human rights that even internationally nations are supposed to aspire too, such as the 1948 Universal Declaration. Within Europe, all states accede to the ECHR.

I see no reason why we cannot do the same within a religious context. Just as no man is an island, neither is any religion.

Therefore Buddhists have read the New Testament and noticed that Jesus taught his disciples too "love their enemies and bless those who curse them", which is something similarly taught five centuries earlier by the Buddha when he said that hatred can only be broken by love in return and that this is an "eternal law".

Should one deny this similarity? Can one not benefit from sharing such a similarity and reflecting on it? Can it tell us nothing? Can we not be mutually enriched by that? Of course the two can then discuss the fundamental differences between Buddhist and Christian cosmology, philosophy etc. however I am sure that they would find both endeavours to be enriching.

A student of the history of religious ideas will have discovered ample evidence of religions influencing each other. Christian and Islamic mysticism are indebted - in terms of the language used to exemplify mystical experience - to Neoplatonic philosophy.

Neoplatonism itself was created as a Greek response to the emergence of Jewish and Christian monotheism and was directly influenced by the Jewish philosopher Philo (who lived long before Neoplatonism's founder Plotinus) and later on by Christian monastics.

Islamic Sufism was also likely indebted to Syrian Christian monasticism and later Byzantine mysticism seems to have inherited psycho-physical techniques from Sufism.

Ideas do not always spring up devoid of prior context as if born out of a vacuum, and if they do, I see no reason why a person from a different religion cannot spontaneously of himself reach the same conclusion, and if so why not recognise and comment upon that similarity?

Ultimately there is only one human race and we all ask similar or the same questions. From that, religions and philosophies spring up trying to provide different answers to those fundamental questions, that in turn stem from fundamental needs or a striving for "meaning" in the human psyche, which in turns is born from our common human nature which we all share. Certain scientists have even pinpointed a so-called "god gene" that predisposes people to be religious and/or spiritual. There was an Oxford University study published a few years ago that argued that human beings are innately spiritual, innately gravitate towards something "else" that is immaterial or transcendent and gives meaning to our temporal lives on this earth. From this basic instincts religion is born.

And so apart from direct influence, because human beings all have the same basic needs and pursuit for self-fulfilment and happiness, different sages have touched upon wisdom and reflections that others too have without any direct interaction of ideas, merely as a result of common, universal insights.

I see nothing wrong with accepting, understanding and appreciating both differences and commonalities between religions.

I do not think that respecting something in another religion that has a firm similarity to a concept in one's own, is in anyway problematic or to be shied way from.

I think that just as certain physical laws of the universe are universally true, such as gravity, there are also universal moral truths accessible to the human conscience, as well as facts about life that are objectively true and can be discerned by a wise, experienced person who has learned to heed the dictates of their own conscience and observed phenomenal reality.

I see no reason why, given that scientists from different cultures can reach the same understanding of an objective fact of the universe, why religious thinkers cannot do the same. Hence why St. Thomas Aquinas highly praised the Jewish philosopher Maimonides and the Muslim philosopher Avicenna. He saw in them men who had discerned similar truths to those he had uncovered.

Just my POV.
 
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Tejwant Singh

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This article is quite misleading. One can find similarities in anything in life if one looks at it because similarity is a subjective thing whereas religion should be viewed from an objective point of view no matter if one belongs to it or not.

On the offset I would like to say that I do not consider the Abrahamic religions as the so called monotheistic religions. For the sake of the argument if one says that they are, and then the following questions pop up:

1. Jews consider them the ‘chosen’ people by their god which is utterly arrogant.
2. Different ‘sects’ in all three.
3. In Judaism Hasidic and many others.
4. In Christianity, thousands of denomination is a conservative estimate.
5. In Islam Sunnis, Shias, Sufis and other branches.
6. If Judaism is Monotheistic, then why pray at the Western Wall?
7. Women cannot wear the shawls which are only meant for men. http://www.haaretz.com/news/nationa...earing-prayer-shawls-at-western-wall-1.459256
8. Why this bias?
9. If Islam is the same then why pray towards Mecca? Isn’t Monotheistic God omnipresent?

One can go on and on.

Sikhi for me is a unique way of life which has nothing to do with any religion, hence comparison is futile.

I think, here we are comparing more cultural/traditional aspects than the religious ones.

Many also claim that the concept of Kabbalah is borrowed from Hinduism as the Trinity is. When one borrows the religious aspects from the others, it is natural to mould them to one’s own beliefs.

Tejwant Singh
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Originally Posted by Vouthon

Therefore Buddhists have read the New Testament and noticed that Jesus taught his disciples too "love their enemies and bless those who curse them", which is something similarly taught five centuries earlier by the Buddha when he said that hatred can only be broken by love in return and that this is an "eternal law".

Let's be honest here. The fact is that Jesus never said nor wrote a single word. What "Jesus said" is in doubt. All Jesus' words are second-hand quotes by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. This Son of an omnipotent, omniscient God who could confound the wise men of the temple never wrote his own gospel.

It is also nonsensical to believe that some guy 2000 years ago was dead for 3 days, and then got up and walked away.. Now, if you believe such things, then you have given away your reason.

Lastly, for the sake of argument let's say that Jesus said," Love thy enemies". It shows Jesus had no idea about the fact that LOVE has NO enemies, hence this proclamation makes no sense. To the contrary. Jesus, the savant could have never uttered these words.

Keeping the above in mind, the rest of the post becomes irrelevant.

Tejwant Singh
 
Feb 23, 2012
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Dear Tejwant ji,

Thank you for your post.

Let's be honest here. The fact is that Jesus never said nor wrote a single word. What "Jesus said" is in doubt. All Jesus' words are second-hand quotes by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. This Son of an omnipotent, omniscient God who could confound the wise men of the temple never wrote his own gospel.

Why is this, a topic for biblical scholars to discuss, even relevant to the moral message conveyed by the teaching I referred too?

Did I ever insinuate that Jesus "wrote" anything? As you correctly noted he chose not to write anything but rather taught his disciples by word and example and exhorted them to pass this living tradition down to others. The Buddha never wrote any first-hand documents either. Rather his teachings were written down by Buddhist scholars well over a century and more after his death. With Jesus scholars can agree on a "Q" sayings source on the basis of the synoptics, a core set of sayings.

"Q" can be dated to about AD40-50, Mark - the first gospel - to AD60. With Islamic Hadith we are talking at least two centuries after Muhammad's death.

This in itself is immaterial though. I was not aware that we were discussing biblical scholarship? All that matters vis-à-vis what I am saying is what has been recorded of the Buddha and Jesus' teachings and the morality therein.

It is also nonsensical to believe that some guy 2000 years ago was dead for 3 days, and then got up and walked away.. Now, if you believe such things, then you have given away your reason.

This is a personal judgement about the perceived irrationality of Christian dogma that, to my mind, has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand except to insult the intelligence of the person you are conversing with (in this case me), which for me is a low shot. Please aim higher than that next time. What does that serve or contribute to this discussion? Hmm...

Lets keep civil with each other, please.

Lastly, for the sake of argument let's say that Jesus said," Love thy enemies". It shows Jesus had no idea about the fact that LOVE has NO enemies, hence this proclamation makes no sense. To the contrary. Jesus, the savant could have never uttered these words.

No, it shows you do not understand what this recorded saying of Jesus is actually saying, for if you knew it in context, then you would look at another first century document known as The Didache. This was written around AD 50-100 and is an important early Christian source. In it you will find this:

"...The way of life is this: First, love the God who made you; secondly your neighbor as yourself; and all things whatsoever you would not have befall you, you too, do not to another. Now of these words the teaching is this: 'Bless them that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for them that persecute you: for what thank have you if you love them that love you? Do not the nations do the same? But love them that hate you and you shall have no enemy'..."

- The Didache (AD 80-100), first Christian catechism


You thus assumed Jesus to be meaning something that he wasn't. Early Christians understood exactly what you said above and in fact the Didache attributes that final phrase "you shall have no enemy" to Jesus. This last truth should be self-evident. The word used in Greek for love is agape which means self-donating love - in other words being loving actively towards someone.

The whole essence of being loving towards one's "enemy" is so as too see no one as your enemy. This realization of having no enemies can only come from first doing good for those whom you are wont to identify as "enemies" and then wishing them well.

Keeping the above in mind, the rest of the post becomes irrelevant.

The rest of my post is irrelevant because you misunderstood a saying attributed to Jesus in Matthew and Luke? Ok.....
 
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Dear Tejwant,

This article is quite misleading. One can find similarities in anything in life if one looks at it because similarity is a subjective thing whereas religion should be viewed from an objective point of view no matter if one belongs to it or not.

Good insight, view religions objectively rather than subjectively. OK, so lets see whether you practice as you preach....

On the offset I would like to say that I do not consider the Abrahamic religions as the so called monotheistic religions.

A subjective opinion. Objectively speaking, without bias, any scholar of religion would tell you that the Abrahamic faiths are monotheistic.



1. Jews consider them the ‘chosen’ people by their god which is utterly arrogant.

Are you being objective here? No, your subjectively declaring Jews to be "arrogant". Have you ever thought about asking Jews what the term "chosen people" means for them? Have you ever actually tried to understand Judaism as Jews believe, rather than simply making assumptions and accusations about their beliefs with recourse to emotional language that is not academic in nature as an "objective" view warrants?

In fact my Jewish doctor explained to me that the "chosen-ness" consists in Jews being a light and blessing to the rest of the world, not in some kind of superiority. Therefore the Torah says, "in you all the families of the earth will be blessed'" (Genesis 12:3).

Hitler made this accusation of Jews when in fact it was he who believed in a German master race superior to all other peoples, not the Jews.

2. Different ‘sects’ in all three.

And?

3. In Judaism Hasidic and many others.

And?

4. In Christianity, thousands of denomination is a conservative estimate.

And?

5. In Islam Sunnis, Shias, Sufis and other branches.

And?

6. If Judaism is Monotheistic, then why pray at the Western Wall?

Because it was the site of the Second Temple which the Romans destroyed in AD70. The Wall is the last part of it and for Jews it is a raw, visual embodiment of the suffering they have endured since the loss of their Temple and land which culminated in the Nazi Holocaust. If you are not a Jew, then how can you possibly comprehend the symbolic meaning that this place holds for Jews?

Let me reverse this on you: If Sikhism is monotheistic, or theistic or whatever describing word you wish to use, then why do you worship in Gurdwaras and at the Golden Temple in Amritsar?

For me such a question does not make sense but I ask it because you asked the same of Jews, for what reason I know not.


Why don't you ask a Jew? We have a few members on SPN of Jewish heritage, one living in Israel if I recall. Don't assume.
8. Why this bias?

As per above.

9. If Islam is the same then why pray towards Mecca? Isn’t Monotheistic God omnipresent?

Mecca is a focal point for unity. Wherever a Muslim lives in the world he faces the same direction. God is not anymore in the Kaaba than in another place. The Sufi Muslims stress this. I'll give you some of their poetry on this tomorrow.

One can go on and on.

No need :mundakhalsaflag:
 

Tejwant Singh

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Vouthon ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is no need to get upset and here you go again with your quotes from others rather than sharing your own thought process.

You are misquoting yourself, sad to say.

Why is this, a topic for biblical scholars to discuss, even relevant to the moral message conveyed by the teaching I referred too?

Who taught this? According to you, Jesus did.

Did I ever insinuate that Jesus "wrote" anything?

How can one teach without saying or writing anything?

As you correctly noted he chose not to write anything but rather taught his disciples by word and example and exhorted them to pass this living tradition down to others.

Now you are misquoting me which is a shame. Read what I wrote again please. I never said Jesus did not choose to. I said he did not write nor said anything. Please do not distort what is there in simple words.

The Buddha never wrote any first-hand documents either. Rather his teachings were written down by Buddhist scholars well over a century and more after his death.

I thought you were talking about Jesus and the Buddhists who you claimed read something from NT that does not make sense as I said before. It is common sense that love has no enemies but you claimed that Jesus said. In fact here are your words.

Therefore Buddhists have read the New Testament and noticed that Jesus taught his disciples too "love their enemies and bless those who curse them", which is something similarly taught five centuries earlier by the Buddha when he said that hatred can only be broken by love in return and that this is an "eternal law".

Eternal Law? What is that?

No Law is eternal.

If you want to talk about Buddha please start another thread and we can do that there.

With Jesus scholars can agree on a "Q" sayings source on the basis of the synoptics, a core set of sayings.

Hearsay is a hearsay. The fact is that there are no words from Jesus, neither written nor spoken.

"Q" can be dated to about AD40-50, Mark - the first gospel - to AD60.

This is mere speculation. Many say AD 120 but who is counting. Can you please share with us what you did? whom you spoke to and what? What you ate, wore etc. etc. 5 years ago today. It is a simple thing to see what is a fact and what is a made up fairy tale?

With Islamic Hadith we are talking at least two centuries after Muhammad's death.

You are all over the place, aren't you? :) What does your above quote have to do with your initial post?

You want to talk about Islam, please start another thread.

This in itself is immaterial though. I was not aware that we were discussing biblical scholarship? All that matters vis-à-vis what I am saying is what has been recorded of the Buddha and Jesus' teachings and the morality therein.

You are the one who talked about the Bible, the things I contested and now you seem all upset for some reason.

This is a personal judgement about the perceived irrationality of Christian dogma that, to my mind, has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand except to insult the intelligence of the person you are conversing with (in this case me), which for me is a low shot. Please aim higher than that next time. What does that serve or contribute to this discussion? Hmm...

I have no idea why my comments made you upset. I told the truth as it it. What is it that you did not like in my post and why? Please explain so we can converse. These kinds of false accusations are not worth the time for anyone.

Lets keep civil with each other, please.

I hope you are saying that to yourself because I have not been uncivil. Please show me where you see that.

No, it shows you do not understand what this recorded saying of Jesus is actually saying, for if you knew it in context, then you would look at another first century document known as The Didache. This was written around AD 50-100 and is an important early Christian source. In it you will find this:

Please respond to what I asked you about your actions 5 years ago. You are right. I do not understand things that do not make sense like,"Love thy enemies", when love can not have any enemies.:)

You thus assumed Jesus to be meaning something that he wasn't. Early Christians understood exactly what you said above and in fact the Didache attributes that final phrase "you shall have no enemy" to Jesus. This last truth should be self-evident. The word used in Greek for love is agape which means self-donating love - in other words being loving actively towards someone.

The whole essence of being loving towards one's "enemy" is so as too see no one as your enemy. This realization of having no enemies can only come from first doing good for those whom you are wont to identify as "enemies" and then wishing them well.

Some more senseless fairy tales. Nothing more. Give me some thing concrete if you have. Otherwise it is nothing but babble.

The rest of my post is irrelevant because you misunderstood a saying attributed to Jesus in Matthew and Luke? Ok....

Nothing was attributed to Jesus. The NT says Jesus SAID this and that. They are quoting Jesus here. Please do not distort the NT now. The NT never says these verses are attributed to Jesus. You are making things up.

As I said in my last post, let's be honest about things. It helps us get to the truth.

Tejwant Singh
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Vouthon ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thank you for your reply Tejwant ji,


There is no need to get upset and here you go again with your quotes from others rather than sharing your own thought process.

I think that I have given you ample thought process as well as a quote that explains the words attributed to Jesus on "love thy enemy" in context. Could you perhaps comment on the quote rather than merely ignore it because it is a quote? Why the aversion to a quote here or there? I admit I was quoting excessively in my last discussion with you but not this time.

You are misquoting yourself, sad to say.

How?


Who taught this? According to you, Jesus did.

Why does it matter who I think taught it? The Gospel of Matthew says that Jesus said it, all that matters is the moral message it teaches which was what I was talking about in the first place.


How can one teach without saying or writing anything?

I believe that the gospel writers are handing on a genuine saying of Jesus. Most scholars would agree, placing it in Q but why on earth you want to discuss authenticity with me and why this is relevant to my initial point which was about similarity between religions, is unknown to me.

Now you are misquoting me which is a shame. Read what I wrote again please. I never said Jesus did not choose to. I said he did not write nor said anything. Please do not distort what is there in simple words.

Fair do's.

I thought you were talking about Jesus and the Buddhists who you claimed read something from NT that does not make sense as I said before. It is common sense that love has no enemies but you claimed that Jesus said. In fact here are your words.

And I explained that you are wrong in your interpretation of that saying. I therefore quoted the Didache, a document roughly contemporary with the gospels, which says the exact same thing you did about love having no enemies. This is how the Early Christians, as exemplified by the Didache, understood that saying of Jesus.


Eternal Law? What is that?

No Law is eternal.


The Buddha described it as an eternal law, not me.

If you want to talk about Buddha please start another thread and we can do that there.

And if you would like to discuss the doctrine of the resurrection and the second-hand sourcing of the gospel writers, then please likewise start another thread.


Hearsay is a hearsay. The fact is that there are no words from Jesus, neither written nor spoken.

If true, why does it matter in relation to our conversation? You have brought this issue up out of thin air when it has nothing to do with my initial post. :kaurfacepalm:



This is mere speculation. Many say AD 120 but who is counting. Can you please share with us what you did? whom you spoke to and what? What you ate, wore etc. etc. 5 years ago today. It is a simple thing to see what is a fact and what is a made up fairy tale?

I gave an approximate date. Some scholars date it as early as AD 50, some as late as AD 120. Why does this matter? You still have not even commented on the quote.

You are all over the place, aren't you? :) What does your above quote have to do with your initial post?


It is an answer to your interpretation of Jesus' words, explaining that the early Church interpreted it as meaning that love has no enemies.


You are the one who talked about the Bible, the things I contested and now you seem all upset for some reason.


I mentioned a saying attributed to Jesus, that is all. I never mentioned the authenticity of the gospel sayings attributed to Jesus, their second-hand sourcing, or the doctrine of the resurrection. You brought this all up! Why, I don't know because you still haven't told me. I'm waiting.


I have no idea why my comments made you upset. I told the truth as it it. What is it that you did not like in my post and why? Please explain so we can converse. These kinds of false accusations are not worth the time for anyone.

I am not upset. I merely do not see the need to

a) mention the resurrection doctrine of Jesus which has nothing to do with the topic

b) inferring that those who believe in resurrection because it is a tenet of one's faith are somehow lacking in reason. That is a judgement and unnecessary to state.

I hope you are saying that to yourself because I have not been uncivil. Please show me where you see that.

I personally think it uncivil to infer that a person "lacks reason" on account of their adherence to a particular creed. I also think it is uncivil to declare that everything else they say is "irrelevant" simply because you disagree with them.

Please respond to what I asked you about your actions 5 years ago. You are right. I do not understand things that do not make sense like,"Love thy enemies", when love can not have any enemies.:)

What have actions 5 years ago got to do with anything? I explained "love thy enemies". You seem to have overlooked my answer entirely because you regard it as "irrelevant".


Nothing was attributed to Jesus.

Ok, you believe this, good but why does it matter?

As I said in my last post, let's be honest about things. It helps us get to the truth.

Amen to that.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Vouthon ji

Would you please restate in 50 words or less exactly what main idea or ideas you are trying to express?

My request should be taken seriously as I am beginning to form the impression that either some sort of passive proselytizing is going on, or you are spamming.

1. It is ironic that the Sikhs and one spokesman for Judaism at no time felt the need to affirm unity or common ground. Rather we have been exchanging information. Speaking for myself, the dialog with akiva ji has resulted in my searching and researching Hassidism, the life of its people, the role of mysticism and historic internal conflicts.

2. One forum rule that is continually violated is the "no posting of a single tuk" rule. Someone sees fit to load up the chamber of his/her Gurbani pistol and empty the chamber, shooting out tuks to "prove" a point, rather than to post a shabad to understand a tuk. It's like being on a target range.

You do exactly the same thing with Christian texts. A piece of Aquinas here, an early theologian there, Matthew over there, and on and on. These tuks from non-Sikh sources create an impression of theological sweetness that yearns for common ground.

So I decided to look into the impressions of Aquinas regarding Jews. We can safely say that 13th Century Christianity and Judaism were not of a single cloth, though both are monotheistic. Post away from the Jewish mystics and Christian mystics and fathers of the church who "seem" to be saying the same thing about the life of the spirit. It is deception.

Here is a taste of Christian conscience toward the Jews penned by one of your favorite theologians, Thomas Aquinas.

SPN readers, do read this. http://www.ccjr.us/dialogika-resour...m-the-history-of-the-relationship/268-aquinas

Vouthon ji - 50 words or less in your own words.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,188
Henderson, NV.
Wow Vouthon ji!

So much anger and frothing? For what:)

Let's check it out.

Your comments are in
Red and my responses are Blue.

This article is quite misleading. One can find similarities in anything in life if one looks at it because similarity is a subjective thing whereas religion should be viewed from an objective point of view no matter if one belongs to it or not.

Good insight, view religions objectively rather than subjectively. OK, so lets see whether you practice as you preach....

On the offset I would like to say that I do not consider the Abrahamic religions as the so called monotheistic religions.

A subjective opinion. Objectively speaking, without bias, any scholar of religion would tell you that the Abrahamic faiths are monotheistic.

It is interesting to notice that you call my opinion subjective but the so called scholar's opinion objective. Why this bias, objectively speaking? I have given my reasons. Please read them again why I claim that they are not monotheistic. If you do not agree with them, then give your reasons. Do not quote any third party.


1. Jews consider them the ‘chosen’ people by their god which is utterly arrogant.

Are you being objective here? No, your subjectively declaring Jews to be "arrogant". Have you ever thought about asking Jews what the term "chosen people" means for them? Have you ever actually tried to understand Judaism as Jews believe, rather than simply making assumptions and accusations about their beliefs with recourse to emotional language that is not academic in nature as an "objective" view warrants?

Before showing your wrath, please check the 2 videos posted by TroVeCatBui after my post. They have your answer.:)

In fact my Jewish doctor explained to me that the "chosen-ness" consists in Jews being a light and blessing to the rest of the world, not in some kind of superiority. Hitler made this accusation of Jews when in fact it was he who believed in a German master race superior to all other peoples.

You mean your Jewish doctor is objective and not the Rabbi in the video?:)No one is talking about Hitler here. You are all over once again.


2. Different ‘sects’ in all three.
And?
3. In Judaism Hasidic and many others.
And?
4. In Christianity, thousands of denomination is a conservative estimate.
And?
5. In Islam Sunnis, Shias, Sufis and other branches.
And?

And what? Please elaborate yourself without quoting a third party.

6. If Judaism is Monotheistic, then why pray at the Western Wall?

Because it was the site of the Second Temple which the Romans destroyed in AD70. The Wall is the last part of it and for Jews it is a raw, visual embodiment of the suffering they have endured since the loss of their Temple and land which culminated in the Nazi Holocaust. If you are not a Jew, then how can you possibly comprehend the symbolic meaning that this place holds for Jews?

Then according to you that wall is a symbolic idol. How interesting for a monotheistic religion and it proves my point because you fail to understand that One Source is everywhere. What does the Nazi Holocaust have to do with the destruction in AD 40? You are all over the place, once again.:)

Let me reverse this on you: If Sikhism is monotheistic, or theistic or whatever describing word you wish to use, then why do you worship in Gurdwaras and at the Golden Temple in Amritsar?

Your above comment shows your total ignorance about Sikhi which is a shame..No one worships anything at the Golden Temple which is open to all ,unlike many Churches ( a non- Catholic can not have a communion, but anyone can have a langar at any Gurdwara), Synagogues, Hindu Temples and Mosques.

Please do not embarrass yourself but rather ask questions about Sikhi. It seems you have no idea about Sikhi, hence your distortions. Make knowledge your best friend.

Nice try about trying to reverse things.:)


For me such a question does not make sense but I ask it because you asked the same of Jews, for what reason I know not.

Nice back peddling. Your question shows your ignorance about Sikhi. Simply put.:)

7. Women cannot wear the shawls which are only meant for men. http://www.haaretz.com/news/national...-wall-1.459256

Why don't you ask a Jew? We have a few members on SPN of Jewish heritage, one living in Israel if I recall. Don't assume.


You seem confused between the facts as stated by the Israeli newspaper and the assumptions. There are no assumptions here but only facts. It is the Jewish women who are protesting, not a Sikh. Read the article again and write to the editor of the Jewish newspaper and ask him/her why the Jewish women are wearing shawls and why are women not allowed to do that? It seems you assumed once again as you did about Sikhi.

8. Why this bias?
As per above.

????

9. If Islam is the same then why pray towards Mecca? Isn’t Monotheistic God omnipresent?

Mecca is a focal point for unity. Wherever a Muslim lives in the world he faces the same direction. God is not anymore in the Kaaba than in another place. The Sufi Muslims stress this. I'll give you some of their poetry on this tomorrow.

Nice try but still no answer which is expected.

Sikhi for me is a unique way of life which has nothing to do with any religion, hence comparison is futile.

I think, here we are comparing more cultural/traditional aspects than the religious ones.

Many also claim that the concept of Kabbalah is borrowed from Hinduism as the Trinity is. When one borrows the religious aspects from the others, it is natural to mould them to one’s own beliefs.

Tejwant Singh
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Dear SPN,

The only contention I was ever implying was that: religions are different in doctrine, institutional structure and even practice, however there is in my opinion a common basic need in human nature which religion, in whatever form, fulfils and at this most basic level one can find unity.

I am not a proselytizer, as I have said now for the second time. That would include some level of malicious intent on my part which only I can know myself as possessing and which I do not possess.

I never said that Aquinas was my "favourite theologian", not once, I actually do not much like the dryness of scholastic texts.

Aquinas had some intolerant views on Jews and usury, for example, that are the result of his time period and culture, however I never referred to his general view of Jews, merely his very real respect for the writings of Moses Maimonides which is well known. He called him "The Master". My point was that he allowed himself to be influenced by this Jewish philosopher, that is completely true.

Catholic mystics, church fathers and others taught things that are in tune with those of other religions and other things that are specific to their own faith, time period, cultures etc. If I have focused on the perceived positive common parts, rather than the differences, then that is my own fault and I fully accept that - although I reject the idea that I am attempting to deceive anybody.

I am always careful to provide if I can the writings I derive my quotes from. A person would be free to type these into google and read the primary sources in full for themselves.

Anyway, that is my piece.

Clearly, my posts are not being received in the manner I intend. Therefore, neither myself nor anyone else is reaping any benefit from them. I think it may therefore be my time to bow out of SPN for good.

Thank you for your help, positive critiques and messages to me SPN.

They are appreciated, and I take them in, even if you might think that I do not.

I had good times on this forum that I will remember but I think that the perception of my posts of late is a sign that I should move on as I thought late last year.

Peace be with you and goodbye.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Vouthon ji

Well you have at least spoken in your own voice with your own words. I see no point in debating specifics of your reply. I do ask that you think about my expressed concern: Posting parts of Christian texts without full context misrepresents the similarities and differences between and among religions at best. At worst it interprets other religions through the filter of Christianity. There are those who have had suffered this patiently over centuries.
 
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