General Is There A God?

[seeker3k]

I don’t get to read all the posts here. I don’t know whom I accused of any thing. Can that person repeat what I said?
My intention is not to accuse any one here or any where else. I just share my views. Some of my views are very opposite of others. Nanak was stoned too for speaking the truth.)

Narayanjot Wrote the whole sloke from the SGGS. Any one can and have read this many times. I don’t understand what she is trying to say here.

What I can make out ( I maybe out to lunch on that) that Nanak praised the true Guru. It is through true Guru one can understand the mystery. She and most believe Nanak is talking about nirakar or God. As we understand the meaning of nirakar who have no body (akar). Here main emphasis is on Guru who can lead him to nirakar. So he was talking about 2. Not one. As many believe Nanak meant guru and nirakar is one. Dwell upon the Perfect Guru each day, and attach yourself to the One Lord. ||1||Pause||
It would be lot better to write in simple normal words so there is no confusion. May be writing the whole sloke make person look better then the others. If the onkar have no body that we can see then how do we know that there is nirakar? That nirakar who have created every thing. The One is the Support of the mind; He has given us body and soul.
Through the Perfect Guru, one becomes perfect; O Nanak, meditate on the True One. ||4||9||79||

Jaspi:
It is true that by reciting the name one can not get enlighten. "RAM RAM KARDIAN MEREE JHIBA GHAS GAI ,AJE NO RAM BHAHURIA EH KIS BHEI"

Again how can baba farid say that that he hope to see onkar when onkar do not have body? YET HE ALSO EXPRESSED THAT CR0W YOU CAN EAT all MY FLESH BUT DO NOT TOUCH MY EYES BECAUSE I STILL HAVE a HOPE TO SEE MY PRITAM (ONKAR)
If every action of every living thing in this universe then what I or any other say is also in his hukam. If so then it is not me who have accused any one here.

If by repeating ram or waheguru one can not be enlightened there has to be another way to be enlightened. Each one of us have to find that technique if we wanted to be enlightened.
What we are doing is trying to decipher the poems that were written over 600 years ago. We should be concentrating on the present NOW.

We believe in dead people because they are not going to get up and correct us id we are making mistake. Life is very simple and beautiful. But we can not accept the simple things. We make it complicated and then try to solve the problem that we have created our self. The MIND that has created the problem can not solve it. To solve it one has to have a new of MIND.

Seeker3k

 

[spnadmin]

What I can make out ( I maybe out to lunch on that) that Nanak praised the true Guru. It is through true Guru one can understand the mystery. She and most believe Nanak is talking about nirakar or God. As we understand the meaning of nirakar who have no body (akar). Here main emphasis is on Guru who can lead him to nirakar. So he was talking about 2. Not one. As many believe Nanak meant guru and nirakar is one. Dwell upon the Perfect Guru each day, and attach yourself to the One Lord. ||1||Pause||

Seeker3k

I believe here the Guru who leads to the One Lord is ShabadGuru. If not then when was the last time we have heard of the human being who was Guru Nanak's Guru? Otherwise, this would not haven been given: ਪਰਗਟੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥ paragatt sabadh hai sukhadhaathaa anadhin naam dhhiaavaniaa ||5|| The Giver of peace is revealed through the Shabad, meditating upon the Naam, night and day. ||5||

More food for thought on this point.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
sireeraag mehalaa 1 ||
Siree Raag, First Mehl:


ਭਰਮੇ ਭਾਹਿ ਨ ਵਿਝਵੈ ਜੇ ਭਵੈ ਦਿਸੰਤਰ ਦੇਸੁ ॥
bharamae bhaahi n vijhavai jae bhavai dhisanthar dhaes ||
The fire of doubt is not extinguished, even by wandering through foreign lands and countries.


ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਵੇਸੁ ॥
anthar mail n outharai dhhrig jeevan dhhrig vaes ||
If inner filth is not removed, one's life is cursed, and one's clothes are cursed.


ਹੋਰੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥੧॥
hor kithai bhagath n hovee bin sathigur kae oupadhaes ||1||
There is no other way to perform devotional worship, except through the Teachings of the True Guru. ||1||

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਗਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ॥
man rae guramukh agan nivaar ||
O mind, become Gurmukh, and extinguish the fire within.


ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
gur kaa kehiaa man vasai houmai thrisanaa maar ||1|| rehaao ||
Let the Words of the Guru abide within your mind; let egotism and desires die. ||1||Pause||

ਮਨੁ ਮਾਣਕੁ ਨਿਰਮੋਲੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥
man maanak niramol hai raam naam path paae ||
The jewel of the mind is priceless; through the Name of the Lord, honor is obtained.


ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
mil sathasangath har paaeeai guramukh har liv laae ||
Join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, and find the Lord. The Gurmukh embraces love for the Lord.

ਆਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਲਲੈ ਸਲਲ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
aap gaeiaa sukh paaeiaa mil salalai salal samaae ||2||
Give up your selfishness, and you shall find peace; like water mingling with water, you shall merge in absorption. ||2||


ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਸੁ ਅਉਗੁਣਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
jin har har naam n chaethiou s aougun aavai jaae ||
Those who have not contemplated the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, are unworthy; they come and go in reincarnation.


ਜਿਸੁ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸੁ ਭਉਜਲਿ ਪਚੈ ਪਚਾਇ ॥
jis sathagur purakh n bhaettiou s bhoujal pachai pachaae ||
One who has not met with the True Guru, the Primal Being, is bothered and bewildered in the terrifying world-ocean.


ਇਹੁ ਮਾਣਕੁ ਜੀਉ ਨਿਰਮੋਲੁ ਹੈ ਇਉ ਕਉਡੀ ਬਦਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੩॥
eihu maanak jeeo niramol hai eio kouddee badhalai jaae ||3||
This jewel of the soul is priceless, and yet it is being squandered like this, in exchange for a mere shell. ||3||


ਜਿੰਨਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਰਸਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਸੁਜਾਣ ॥
jinnaa sathagur ras milai sae poorae purakh sujaan ||
Those who joyfully meet with the True Guru are perfectly fulfilled and wise.

ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਭਉਜਲੁ ਲੰਘੀਐ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਤਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
gur mil bhoujal langheeai dharageh path paravaan ||
Meeting with the Guru, they cross over the terrifying world-ocean. In the Court of the Lord, they are honored and approved.


ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਧੁਨਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੨੨॥
naanak thae mukh oujalae dhhun oupajai sabadh neesaan ||4||22||
O Nanak, their faces are radiant; the Music of the Shabad, the Word of God, wells up within them. ||4||22||

 

[seeker3k]

Nanak did have Guru, Why then he praised guru so much. If you do the research you can know he had human guru. If you choose to not do the research then it is ok too. No one will loose any thing.

I believe here the Guru who leads to the One Lord is ShabadGuru. If not then when was the last time we have heard of the human being who was Guru Nanak's Guru? Otherwise, this would not haven been given: paragatt sabadh hai sukhadhaathaa anadhin naam dhhiaavaniaa ||5|| The Giver of peace is revealed through the Shabad, meditating upon the Naam, night and day. ||5||

What is shabad to you? Most people claim it is waheguru. The meaning of waheguru is wonderus guru. This was used by the Bhats in their praise of Guru Amardas. There is no proof that any of the 9 Gurus used this word. The concept of shabad is not of Sikhs alone. It was the Hindus who believed in shabad (naam) Dhun. All the sants even those whose bani is in SGGS believed in shabad. No one of those sants said that waheguru is the shabad. Still now almost all yogi give shabad when they make one their Sikh (student)
Once you wind out what is shabad then you may understand not before. This shabad have to given by Guru. Nor can not read it from book or hear it from any person.

hor kithai bhagath n hovee bin sathigur kae oupadhaes ||1||

updesh mean shabad or any manter that one meditate on. How the shabad should be recited only guru can tell.
gur kaa kehiaa man vasai houmai thrisanaa maar ||1|| rehaao ||

Here again do what guru tell him to do. The ekonkar don’t speak so he can not show how to recite shabad. It is after the shabad is meditated that one can understand ek ong kar. Not before.
jin har har naam n chaethiou s aougun aavai jaae ||

har was used for Vishu. Now we Sikhs claim that it is used for God not for Vishnu.
So we can say har n we can understand ek ong kar? If that is the case why are we Sikhs are stuck up the name of waheguru. I have not heard any Sikh reciting har?

jinnaa sathagur ras milai sae poorae purakh sujaan ||

Here you can see it is after meeting satguru one can know the shabad. It is clear that the naam shabad has to be received from guru that one can know the sat purakh.

gur mil bhoujal langheeai dharageh path paravaan ||

here again only after meeting the true guru one can cross the bhavsagar(understand the param purkh?

How you don’t see what you are preaching me and others is beyond me.

If Nanak did not had guru himself then why he started the gurudom? Nanak preached against the gurudom yet he created the same system he condemned
All he could have done is write the shabad. That would have been very practical? Don’t you think so?

Seeker3k

 

[Archived_member14]

Atheist ji, (Bhagat ji),

Quote Bhagat Singh:
<<My intention is not to convert you to Sikhism but please break out of your current mindset of "oh there is no evidence so I am right" and start thinking beyond that. Ask yourself: Why is there no evidence? What do I mean when I say evidence? What would it take to show me that there is a God? That sort of thing will expand your thinking. You'll still be atheist after that but will be a better, more intelligent atheist.>>

Quote Atheist:
<<Well if you ask me a question it is only fair for me to ask you the same/similar question: What evidence would be "good" evidence to convince you that jesus is the son of god and born of a virgin and rose from the dead?

The answer to your question is very simple: Testable, provable, empirical evidence.

An atheist simply goes one step further than a theist. We have a common belief: Neither of us, I presume, believe that Joseph Smith had a genuine vision from god & jesus and that the book of mormon is another testamant of jesus christ and that jesus = god. We agree on this right? I just go one step further and have a dis-belief in any religion. In other words, people that believe in a religion/system of beliefs/whatever word you want to use tend to NOT believe in all the other ones. So I just NOT believe in one more. For example if there were 100 religions on this planet, everyone would not believe in 99 of them and believe in 1 of them (of those that had a belief in something). I just have a disbelief in 100 of them and not 99 - a difference of merely one.>>
--------------------

Perhaps there is something to be learnt from Bhagat Singh ji’s statement above.
You ‘dis-believe’ in all religions, and I’m not asking you to simply believe in what I quote and comment on below. Someone just mentioned the Buddha, so I take the opportunity to quote something said by him here:

Quote:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or latent tendencies; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play.
Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.>><end quote>

And he then goes on to show how the process is reversed leading to the end of the cycle of existence.

My comment:
Our moment to moment experiences, some of them are causes and some are effects. Each of these is conditioned by complex set of factors all of which are extremely fleeting. Ignorance is a root condition which arises most if not all the time when we ‘think’ about things. Wisdom is the opposite of this, and it has many degrees which can be developed. There are basically two types of this wisdom, one not being necessarily related to the other. One type understands the ethical value of the moment’s experience, in other words, the value of good states and harm in bad ones, but it does not however know “ignorance” for what it is. The other more important type, understands the nature, including the fact of it being conditioned and fleeting and whether it is a cause, effect or indeterminate, and related to all this, the harm in ignorance.

This second type starts with the level of what is called ‘intellectual understanding’ which when developed leads to direct understanding and insight. But even at the beginning level, it is one which begins to understand the difference between what is *reality* and what is *concept*. And along with this comes the inclination to studying the present moment experience rather than being caught up in the “concepts” which invariably arises all the time and follows any sense experiences, believing wrongly, that these are the objects of knowledge and understanding. The imperative is therefore, to understand the nature of the present moment, since it is this that is *real* and where causes and effects arises and fall away constantly.

Failing this is the reason we instead end up dealing with what I’d call ‘shadows of reality’ and believing in the kind of cause and effect which amount to no more than being mere ‘stories’. This is where science is at. Indeed science and every other field of knowledge are involved in what could be compared to the seven blind men who are holding each, one part of the elephant and making statements about the ‘reality’ of the elephant. The Truth obviously can’t be arrived at this way. Each person ends up throwing concepts at each other and even if some end up agreeing, this would only be by way of belief in some concept and never a reality. Which is why getting at the Truth requires “insight” into the nature of the present moment, because otherwise we deal only with concepts, arguing and remaining lost in such an ocean.

We think ‘ignorance’ is lack of knowledge about things. But the truth is that all such knowledge are the product of the proliferation of thought fuelled by ‘ignorance’ which itself is a mental reality, whose function is to obscure the true nature of what is really *real* NOW.

I hope the above has given some food for thought. And if you think fit, we can take the discussion elsewhere.
Sukinder

 

[BhagatSingh]

Seeker Ji, It would help if you kept your points organized and presented gurbani to back up things you say. That way we can learn what you have to say, especially those of us with weak understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
I will point out where you need to provide passages from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Nanak did have Guru, Why then he praised guru so much. If you do the research you can know he had human guru. If you choose to not do the research then it is ok too. No one will loose any thing.

Let's see this research. Unless by Guru you mean several people who influenced his way of thinking. Those belonging to the Sufi and Bhagati movement, and perhaps, even the Bhagats from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

I believe here the Guru who leads to the One Lord is ShabadGuru. If not then when was the last time we have heard of the human being who was Guru Nanak's Guru?

Otherwise, this would not haven been given: paragatt sabadh hai sukhadhaathaa anadhin naam dhhiaavaniaa ||5|| The Giver of peace is revealed through the Shabad, meditating upon the Naam, night and day. ||5||

What is shabad to you? Most people claim it is waheguru.

Shabad is God's word, that is, for Sikhs its Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The reason why people say shabad is waheguru is because they take this passage from Bhai Gurdas's Vaars (or something else to the same effect) literally: waho waho! bani nirankar hai

The meaning of waheguru is wonderus guru. This was used by the Bhats in their praise of Guru Amardas. There is no proof that any of the 9 Gurus used this word.

Ok here you need to back this up. I am asking because I don't know, and I want to learn.

The concept of shabad is not of Sikhs alone. It was the Hindus who believed in shabad (naam) Dhun.

Not just Hindus and Sikhs but Christians as well. God says let there be light... That's one way God creates the world in Christianity, Genesis Chapter 1 page 1. I believe similar concept also exists in Islam.

All the sants even those whose bani is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib believed in shabad. No one of those sants said that waheguru is the shabad. Still now almost all yogi give shabad when they make one their Sikh (student)
Once you wind out what is shabad then you may understand not before. This shabad have to given by Guru. Nor can not read it from book or hear it from any person....

OK here, you need to have page numbers so I can look at the passage. You can use www.srigranth.org

If Nanak did not had guru himself then why he started the gurudom?

That's a non sequitor.

Nanak preached against the gurudom yet he created the same system he condemned

Ok, you also need to back this up. Where does he condemn Gurudom?

To my knowledge, India always had gurudoms. In fact, in India there is no such thing as religion, only gurudoms. Gurus are responsible for providing the Shishya with a good worldview. Shishya can mingle with Shishya of other groups and exchange ideas. The whole system refines itself through this exchange and the introduction of new ideas.

 

[spnadmin]

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play.
Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.>><end quote>

And he then goes on to show how the process is reversed leading to the end of the cycle of existence.


Sukinder

Major admiration for explaining this so well. I am honored.

wahkaur

 

[seeker3k]

Dear Bhagat Sing ji,

You need to make up your mind. U said for sikh the guru is SGGS. Now you say it is in Bhai Gurdas’s bani. If you don’t know Bhai Gurdas’s poems were not allowed in SGGS.

What ever research I can show is not good enough. You are missing the point . I am talking about ANBHUB. My own experiences. I been into this for more then 50 years.
I have experienced the shabad, dhun. That what I have been saying all along do it and experience it then you can know.

Seeker3

 

[seeker3k]

Dear Bhagat Singh ji,

Yes you are right, what I write is too much information. People get confused I need your help.Would it be better if I start new thread for each question I have?

Seeker3k

 

[BhagatSingh]

Yes we can start a new thread to discuss this.

U said for sikh the guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Now you say it is in Bhai Gurdas’s bani.

No, I am not saying that at all.

What ever research I can show is not good enough

Then you should not make conclusions on based on such research.

 

[spnadmin]

At this time I don't think a thread would be a good idea. The item you want to discuss is more like a 2 way conversation to iron out a point of disagreement or question. A thread needs to be about a concept, issue or problem that has general interest to the forum.

You don't want a thread to be based on a "you said" versus "I said" sort of issue.

So continue discussing that point here. It is relevant to the thread topic as it is about a particular issue that needs clarification. If it goes to a new thread, people following this thread will be left hanging in mid air.

Thanks, Narayanjot Kaur

 

[seeker3k]

Dear Bhagat Singh Ji,

In your view are all the people whos bani is in SGGS are equal?

Let take Kabir Ji, some of his bani is not included in the SGGS. It is called kachi bani. Any bani that is not of any sant bhagat ia kachi bani. It should not be read or used or have same states as what is in SGGS. It is not my idea it is by the SGPC.
The SGGS is complete by it self. It does not any one’s support to make it any more complete.

Why then you gave the example from Bhai Gurdas’s poems? Is he above the sants and bhagats that we should use his bani to make SGGS complete?

Do you have any proof that Nanak gave gadi to Bhai Lehan? I could not find any writing in SGGS of any guru or bhagat that proves it. It is written in sakhies. Those sakhies were written in the 1800’s. Bhai Gurdas never met Nanak. How can he know any thing about giving gadi to Lehna.

Lets talk about the facts not just a belief.

More questions to follow

Seeker3k

 

[spnadmin]

Dear Bhagat Singh Ji,

In your view are all the people whos bani is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are equal?

Let take Kabir Ji, some of his bani is not included in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. It is called kachi bani. Any bani that is not of any sant bhagat ia kachi bani. It should not be read or used or have same states as what is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. It is not my idea it is by the SGPC.
The Sri Guru Granth Sahib is complete by it self. It does not any one’s support to make it any more complete.

Why then you gave the example from Bhai Gurdas’s poems? Is he above the sants and bhagats that we should use his bani to make Sri Guru Granth Sahib complete?

Do you have any proof that Nanak gave gadi to Bhai Lehan? I could not find any writing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib of any guru or bhagat that proves it. It is written in sakhies. Those sakhies were written in the 1800’s. Bhai Gurdas never met Nanak. How can he know any thing about giving gadi to Lehna.

Lets talk about the facts not just a belief.

More questions to follow

Seeker3k

Point of moderation Seeer3k ji

Yes, The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is complete by itself. However your questions to Bhagat ji as follows distort the relevance of the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji.

Why then you gave the example from Bhai Gurdas’s poems? Is he above the sants and bhagats that we should use his bani to make Sri Guru Granth Sahib complete?

The vaaran are considered in the Sikh Rehat Maryada to be acceptable for use in gurdwaras as a way to elaborate on Sri Guru Granth Sahib. According to the Sikh Rehat Maryada,


CHAPTER V

Kirtan (Devotional Hymns Singing by a Group or an Indvidual)

Article VI

a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation.
b) Kirtan means singing the scriptural compositions in traditional musical measures.
c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed.
d) It is improper, while singing hymns to rhythmic folk tunes or to traditional musical measures, or in team singing, to induct into them improvised and extraneous refrains. Only a line from the hymn should be made a refrain.

So Bhagat Singh ji's remarks are not off-base.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Seeker Ji,
Bhai Gurdas's Vaaran can provide some insight into gurbani, and they are important for that reason. To clarify his vaaran are not bani. Also, I admitted that Sri Guru Granth Sahib could possible state something like that. Anyhow, that's what some people believe that bani is God, and I am smply trying to expain their belief, where they might get it from.

Do you have any proof that Nanak gave gadi to Bhai Lehan?

My knowledge of those things isn't very great but if we work together, we can find out teh answers to some of your questions.
If you continue to question without spending enough time on previous ones. Then it will seem as if you are just here to agitate people. So can we get back to when I asked you to provide passages from Sri Guru Granth Sahib to support your statements?

 

[seeker3k]

Bhagat Singh Ji,

When a man drinks it is said that he is not bad person but it is the whisky that is talking not him. But you know as well I do it is the real self that comes out. Most men who drink they do not abuse their sister or mother. But they always fight with others and in many cases other’s sister or mothers get abused. It is same in any situation when one is agitated the real self comes out. One can pretend to be at peace but only when he is agitated we will know the truth about the person.

Person who believes will find any reason from any where to justify his belief. He will get agitated when he is pushed in the corner. When don’t have the answer he also get agitated and anger take over.
When ever some one makes us angry, he is controlling us. It uses to be easy to believe and preach any thing. People were naïve they did not knew much. Now with the technology one can find out what is going on the other side of the world. That’s why lot of scandals is coming out in every group. People are educated and know lot more then we believe. When we take other people’s belief apart, rest assured they are going to take our belief apart too. Ever since I can remember Sikhs are taking other religions apart. Nit-picking them. But we get angry when some one points the faults in us.

If you look at the rituals in Sikhism all of them are the copy of Hindus. Yet we criticize Hindus. But we have changed the names of those rituals. We claim that our rituals are respect to god and our gurus. The same thing when Hindus do it is wrong.

We Sikhs agitate all others yet we don’t see it. Who ever criticize us is our friend not our enemy. People are going to take our belief apart it is not going to stop. So we should have the answer to their question. Other wise we will be the laughing stock of the world.

My intention is to know the real thing. I am not into any rituals. If that agitate others so be it.

When Guru Arjan Dev refused to include Gurdas’s vars he got angry. The Arjan Dev made a compromise he said Gurdas’s vars is the key to bani in SGGS. Guru Arjan Dev didn’t think his vars were good enough to be included in SGGS. It was not called SGGS then it was called pothi. Pothi did not have the same respect as SGGS. That is another topic.

Now one question: After the mool mantar there is word “jap” then the rest of the pauri is written. What is the meaning of this word?

I am sorry my comp is older I can not copy gurmukhi and paste it my writng. I can not write gurmukhi that good. I just have to explain in normal lingo.


seeker3k

 

[spnadmin]

,

When Guru Arjan Dev refused to include Gurdas’s vars he got angry. The Arjan Dev made a compromise he said Gurdas’s vars is the key to bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Arjan Dev didn’t think his vars were good enough to be included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


seeker3k

seeekr3k ji

Once again there is considerable confusion in your account of the importance of the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji. Would you please provide us with some links, or some print sources, that support your statement quoted above? Who asked Guru Arjan Dev to include the varaan to begin with? Guru Arjan Dev would have to first be asked before he could refuse. Where have your read/heard this? Why would Guru Arjan Dev need to compromise with anyone about anything related to the compilation of the Aad Granth? What were the circumstances that led Guru Arjan Dev to decide that the varaan were not good enough?

I have attached a copy of the work of Professor Sahib Singh - a rather careful history of the compilation of the Aad Granth/Pothi Sahib.

 

[dalbirk]

Seeker 3K Ji ,
After the finishing of Moolmantar at GURPARSAAD , the bani JAP starts from the word Jap . Please click on the link below to read it .
PAGE 1 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).

 

[seeker3k]

not-ieh auprokq guris`KI dw mUl-mMqr hY [ ies qoN AgWh ilKI geI bwxI dw nwm hY 'jpu' [ ieh g`l cyqy r`Kx vwlI hY ik ieh mUl-mMqr v`KrI cIz hY qy bwxI 'jpu' v`KrI hY [ sRI gurU gRMQ swihb dy SurU ivc ieh mUl-mMqr iliKAw hY, ijvyN hryk rwg dy SurU ivc BI iliKAw imldw hY [ bwxI 'jpu' l&z 'Awid scu' qoN SurU huMdI hY [ Awsw dI vwr dy SurU ivc BI iehI mUl-mMqr hY, pr 'vwr' nwl ies dw koeI sMbMD nhIN hY, iqvyN hI ie`Qy hY [ 'jpu' dy ArMB ivc mMglwcrn dy qOr qy iek slok aucwirAw igAw hY [ iPr ‘jpu’ swihb dIAW 38 pauVIAW hn[
॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
ies swrI bwxI dw nwm 'jpu' hY [
ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥


This is what I get from that page. I dont understand what is says

 

[spnadmin]

not-ieh auprokq guris`KI dw mUl-mMqr hY [ ies qoN AgWh ilKI geI bwxI dw nwm hY 'jpu' [ ieh g`l cyqy r`Kx vwlI hY ik ieh mUl-mMqr v`KrI cIz hY qy bwxI 'jpu' v`KrI hY [ sRI gurU gRMQ swihb dy SurU ivc ieh mUl-mMqr iliKAw hY, ijvyN hryk rwg dy SurU ivc BI iliKAw imldw hY [ bwxI 'jpu' l&z 'Awid scu' qoN SurU huMdI hY [ Awsw dI vwr dy SurU ivc BI iehI mUl-mMqr hY, pr 'vwr' nwl ies dw koeI sMbMD nhIN hY, iqvyN hI ie`Qy hY [ 'jpu' dy ArMB ivc mMglwcrn dy qOr qy iek slok aucwirAw igAw hY [ iPr ‘jpu’ swihb dIAW 38 pauVIAW hn[
॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
ies swrI bwxI dw nwm 'jpu' hY [
ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥


This is what I get from that page. I dont understand what is says

Probably because the font on that page is not supported by the fonts on the SPN server. That would be the top reason. Let me take a look.

Added. I went to that page and can read it fine. So the problem is not a mismatch of SPN fonts with fonts from the site.

Added. The page is using MicroLipiLight font and also Web Akhar thick. if you donwload these fonts you should be able to read it.

 

[seeker3k]

This is one word that no one is able to explain in their own view. I got two links for some reason they don’t work on my computer. Most likely it is my computer.
It is strange that no one explain it. This word: JAP It dose to fit in the writing of the poems “bani” It is odd word. Or is it? I don’t thing Nanak could have put odd word there with out some meaning.
Jap as I understand is to recite inward or outward. But recite what? That is the question I have asked people in Indian. I went to many learned bhaiji no one could explain it.

Do we recite the mool mantar or the next verse.Ath sach jugad sach hai bhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach? All the mool mantar and the next verse is the definition of God. Accept one word. Do we recite the definition or what?

I don’t think Nanak wanted us to recite the definition.
In Nanak’s bani and other Gurus bani also sants and bhagat’s bani emphasize on naam. Not the definition of God.

Instead giving the link please explain in your own words what it mean. If one don’t know then just say that don’t know. As few bhai ji said to me when I asked them in India.

Seeker3k

 

[spnadmin]

Moderation only.

I am answering this question solely for the benefit of new readers of this thread. Jap is the first word of Raag Jap. Jap means "chant" and the world "jap" opens the raag.

It is followed by


ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥
aadh sach jugaadh sach ||
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.


ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥
hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach ||1||
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||
All the remaining 38 paurees of the raag then follow. The raag closes with a saloka, on Ang 8. The next raag in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji picks up on Ang 8 and is Raag Aassaa.

There is nothing mysterious about this and is not rocket science.