General Is There A God?

[Seeker9]

Well put, Sinister,

This idea that"Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something," It raises a real problem because evolutionary theory has proven that spontaneous creation does not exist, that is the basic idea that goes against creationism and even if there are lots of debates among evolutionists, they at least agree on that as a given. Things don't just appear, there is always a cause, things evolve,etc. but once we rewind evolution to the very start, we have no choice but to fall back on the possibility of spontaneous creation. I guess we have to wait for science to come up with something that does not place it in such an embarassing contradiction.
I'm old enough to recall a time when academia disrecarded evolutionary theory and the bing-bang theory on scientific terms. There was this joke about what a theory is: a socially successful error and evolutionism was the perfect example of that. We would also be amused by the idea that while most people see themselves as descendants of gods, we see ourselves as descendants of apes...Wether religion or science, it is important to keep in mind the social, historic context. Every time the prevalent ideolgy takes a turn to the right, we see evolutionism popping up and this is quite clear today. It became very convenient for Nazi ideology. Presently our situation resembles that of the decline of the Roman empire and the early dark ages. The other day I was reading a book about that and I really had the impression of reading a newspaper, it was astonishing. busyknitting

I wonder...is it spontaneous and something out of nothing if it was a naturally occurring process in the primordial ooze that was already there, because the ooze was in a young planet that was already there, which was in a young solar system that was already there, which was in a Galaxy in a Universe and so on all the way back to the Big Bang which happened by itself?

Whether or not something new is created, at the sub-atomic level, it's all just the same energy.... primordial ooze is energy....single celled organisms are energy...amphibians and mammals are energy...is the soul energy? Is God energy?

Perhaps this is naive and simplistic but if we look at everything as just a form of energy, and we accept there are natural processes that move and transform this energy...then is there still a big mystery??

If everything is energy and the Universe is energy and the universe is God, is God subject to the same natural laws?

What is the purpose of life then??

I know I'm asking a lot of questions and probably confused myself and everybody else in the process! I do not have the answers so sorry!

 

[spnadmin]

If everything is energy and the Universe is energy and the universe is God, is God subject to the same natural laws?

Actually Seeker ji You have hit on one of the classic problems encountered in philosophy regarding the existence of God -- stated however in terms of your own example.

When we posit that the universe is God, are we also accepting that God is the universe? If yes, then the second question follows. Is God subject to the same natural laws as everything else in the Universe? If yes, then whoever/whatever governs these laws is more powerful than God.

Cool stuff philosophy.

 

[Seeker9]

Actually Seeker ji You have hit on one of the classic problems encountered in philosophy regarding the existence of God -- stated however in terms of your own example.

When we posit that the universe is God, are we also accepting that God is the universe? If yes, then the second question follows. Is God subject to the same natural laws as everything else in the Universe? If yes, then whoever/whatever governs these laws is more powerful than God.

Cool stuff philosophy.

Cool?
Gives me a sore head!

But what I'm not certain about is there a need for anything to govern these natural laws? Can't they just be there? But then you go all the way back and ask where gravity came from or how did the first thing that ever happened occur in the first place and you're back at step one and the title of this thread!

Or is it just our puny minds have a linear concept of time and can@t handle the truth of what actually happens!!!

It's great fun debating all this stuff but I doubt we will get an answer we all agree on. But let's keep on going anyway!!

:happykaur:

 

[spnadmin]

Seeker9 ji

Another great question from philosophy about the existence of God- asked by you. The question of first causes. Which is often asked when philosophers make a case that, yes, God exists!

But what I'm not certain about is there a need for anything to govern these natural laws? Can't they just be there? But then you go all the way back and ask where gravity came from or how did the first thing that ever happened occur in the first place and you're back at step one and the title of this thread!

Or is it just our puny minds have a linear concept of time and can@t handle the truth of what actually happens!!!

 

[findingmyway]

Nope, just plain ol' Physics
The Law of Gravity, which is pretty fundamental here requires no reason...it just happens

The need to apply reason and meaning to naturally occurring events is part of the human condition

Why did the apple fall of the tree?
Reason?
Or gravity?

winkingmunda

Surely there's a reason for everything! God

 

[Sinister]

I wonder...is it spontaneous and something out of nothing if it was a naturally occurring process in the primordial ooze that was already there, because the ooze was in a young planet that was already there, which was in a young solar system that was already there, which was in a Galaxy in a Universe and so on all the way back to the Big Bang which happened by itself?

Whether or not something new is created, at the sub-atomic level, it's all just the same energy.... primordial ooze is energy....single celled organisms are energy...amphibians and mammals are energy...is the soul energy? Is God energy?

Perhaps this is naive and simplistic but if we look at everything as just a form of energy, and we accept there are natural processes that move and transform this energy...then is there still a big mystery??

If everything is energy and the Universe is energy and the universe is God, is God subject to the same natural laws?

What is the purpose of life then??

I know I'm asking a lot of questions and probably confused myself and everybody else in the process! I do not have the answers so sorry!

sure there is still mystery, there will always be mystery.

Representation of physical laws with symbols is one thing, what you termed plain ol' physics. Instruments helping human minds can deduce and record past events in a chronology with symbols, using another representation, time, as markers. the laws of physics are encompassing and reliable but the understanding of the why in the law is always inconclusive.

the most fundamental knowledge of our expressions of 'realism' are completely absent and definitions are assumed unnecessary because 1) they are of little economic, thus energetic, importance 2) are understood to be 'intuitive' in nature, something like an a-priori impression.

for example;

indespensibility thesis:
value. Something simple as a whole value (A whole value themselves are not themselves things, but measurements of things, as such they do not have any identity of consequence) is not explicit in physics (referring to Quantum Mechanics...on how a singularity can be given mass and an energetic value...of co{censored} referring to a photon)...yet the expression of a quantity is the most explicit expression known to man. hence the question...do numbers exist? is any quantity truly understandable? are numbers real?

physics is based upon values therefore physics is defined by the "ABSTRACT"?

are values the same irrespective of what they are called and irrespective of whether we are aware of them?

As long as there are questions there is always room for imagination...and that is the human condition.

Applying reason and meaning to cosmic events may be seen as an act of vanity or as something entirely unnecessary, but even that view lacks any honest sentiment.

because who in their right mind does not want reason?

 

[polpol]

Yes Sinister ji,
"are values the same irrespective of what they are called and irrespective of whether we are aware of them?"
It is always the same question. Like with "0", did we invent it or did we discover it? It's the same question with God. Did we invent him or have we discoverd Him. Wow! I think we are getting somewhere.

 

[seeker3k]

We have invented God in our own image.
Every religion claim their god is like this or that.

3 years ago I went to India. One of my friend took me to see a great sadu. When the sadu came out of mander and sat down he asked me to ask him what ever I want to ask.
I said I only have one question. He said ask. I said is there one god or more? He said there is only one God. ( All the religions say there is one God. The one I believe is the right one not yours). I asked if there is one God how can he give conflicting message. He asked how that is. We as Hindus Sikhs most of the Asian religion believe we are born due to our karma’s we do in past life. The Jews Christians, Muslims believe that their god told them there is only one birth. Sadhu started to think. After few minutes he said there was only Hinduism in the beginning. Others changed to suit them. I did not want to argu with him. I said I got the answer thank you very much. He started to explain the Veda. I said I got the answer there is no need for the explanation. That sadhu did not knew any thing beyond Hinduism.
We all create our own God in our own image. Even in one religion I have different god then my brother.

Very good discussion. No matter how much we argue it there will never be one consensus. We must keep it alive longs we can

 

[Sinister]

Yes Sinister ji,
"are values the same irrespective of what they are called and irrespective of whether we are aware of them?"
It is always the same question. Like with "0", did we invent it or did we discover it? It's the same question with God. Did we invent him or have we discoverd Him. Wow! I think we are getting somewhere.

polpol,

that is the next question, for such a forum in the subject of such a thread...

BUT, (and i am not sure how to put this), should be of little concern to us.

I think the questions we must ask should go into the realm of our own congnition, and not just ask the platonic existence of a vague word like "god". If we stick to a simpler lexeme we limit ambiguity and perhaps yield a better understanding of our own state of 'being'.

stay with me,

a thought experiment,

think of a chess board....you have the physical pieces (black square, white square, queen, knight, bishop, etc) and then you have rules of the chess board.

are the rules of the chessboard any less 'existent' than the pieces themselves?

now imagine we observed an illegal move on this chessboard that defied all rules... (lets call it a quantum leap, ql). after the ql we decide to rewrite the rules so as to account for what we have seen.

Does this mean we have a better understanding of the chess board and the game? or a worse understanding?

the rules of the chess board lend meaning to the game and are just as real as the pieces themselves. everything systematically interconnected. the rules of chess do not exist but subsist.

numbers, although do not exist, 'subsist'. helping humans denote the being of an object in a non-temporal sense...

all mathematics based on numbers and values, which is the basis for all scientific understanding and the most explicit form of human communication could be the result of a historical fact rather than a meta/physical condition. Since we cannot know, on this account, whether some other, non-mathematical way of compressing information (i.e patterns) is possible which works as well as, or better than, mathematics. this would entail that mathematics could be a convention, the most rigorous we have thus far, and that is all we can intelligibly say about it.

Most of mathematics does not (directly) concern numbers and most mathematical domains (linear or non-linear, etc) are not applicable to the physical world we see. So it doesn't follow that numbers are any more "real" than (e.g) words, or mathematics is any more 'real' than (e.g) grammer.

just a thought

 

[jasi]

SS AKAL Ji..


By trusting God or not trusting God makes no differences to any one but ones self , Just focus more on your own deed and read any holy scripture to guide your way out all these confusions and stop compare every thing scientifically . Science is a research for new or existing inventions for thing which are already existing but to search Supreme being is method very well explained in Jap ji sahib ji.

Still one can try to understand Jap Ji sahib Ji to find plenty of answers to disbelief in Supreme power.

Jaspai

 

[seeker3k]

Dear ik-jivan,

WOW.
What an experience you had. You have unique ability that you can remember your child hood.
I don’t know how old you are now. But you could have learned more as to how to harness this power. Too bad you did not find any one who could have helped you. It is still not too late. With that ability you can go back and see your past lives. And you can go into the future to see your future lives.
You said the thoughts were from God. It was explained by sages in the past that thought exist Thought never dies. When we have a thought it is recycled thought. It has been said that light travel at the rate of 184000 miles per/sec. The thought travel much faster then the light. Science can only track light but not the thought. Thought is transmitted by the brain. The people who have their antennas up can pick up the thoughts and claim it was their thoughts. Some of the thoughts are one’s own but most are recycles. All the thought are traveling in the universe. Science have not made any receive to catch them yet.
Science has made advances in many fields. Now one can turn on computer by thought also open folder and files just by thought. Soon science will make advances in controlling thoughts.
It is your belief that it is God who plant thoughts in your mind. I respect your belief but if you learn to harness this ability then you will know what it is.

I am really happy that you have this ability.

 

[jasi]

SS AKAL JI>

SEEKER 3 JI.

Literlly speaking if you can read and try to understand JAP JI SAHIB word by word you will have all the answers to your curitisty or doubt of GOD.

All your wondering curiosity about scientific achievements so far for the latest inventions you will all have detailed replies in Jap Ji Sahib without wondering all other avenues existed before in any scriptures.I will like you to come back to this forum again fully understood which no one ever came back after understanding Jap Ji sahib.

God is not some thing to be invented but to be realized as you feel the crystal clear air and realizes something touching you but you can not see is called the "TRUTH".

Because God is in existence before this universe exist for simple reason what you see already exist could have not created by itself.


Science has invented from things which leads to another in all field of human lives and will continue to know more WHAT IS ALREADY EXISTING but since human existence no one has written any invention about or of Supreme beings as mentioned by Nanak Dev Ji.

Any one or Prophets ,Saints,Bhudhiwan has left us with many paths to follow to be realized within our soul not looking into jungle or hiding places .

God is not some thing existing we have to invent but within every creations in this universe can be realized by any one who follows the rhythm of finding.

Ryhtem can be found by listening Gurbani and in SHABAD as Guru Gobindh Singh put it in right directions.

Jaspi