Is Bhatt Bani Not Guru?

[Astroboy]

Pendu desi bandaa, shehree saleeka sikhann nu time laggoo.(I am moor from a village, it will take me time to learn your city life style), But I will get there with Guru Kirpa. There is nothing impossible with Guru Kirpa.

Sure you will, Pyramid Ji - just like the persistence of this child :-

During the days when Guru Arjan was living in Amritsar, some people from Lahore made plans to visit that city and have His darshan. In those days most traveling was done on foot; and so after some discussion they decided to break their journey for rest after twelve miles, and continue to Amritsar the next day. Everyone agreed to this, except one small child, who stood up and said, "Why can't we reach there in one day instead of two?" Feeling somewhat abashed that the child had more enthusiasm to be in the Guru's presence at any cost, they agreed that it was possible to reach Amritsar in one day, by walking very quickly double the distance, and very briefly pausing to gain their breath. So, the very next day they set out from Lahore and finally reached the outskirts of Amritsar at about midnight. It was a bitterly cold winter season, and when they arrived at the Sikh temple called Pipli Sahib Gurudwara, they were cold, tired, and hungry. Guru Arjan knew their condition, and from His residence, some distance away, He wrapped Himself in a huge blanket from head to foot; and placing a large container of hot halva parshad on His head, He set out to meet the exhausted disciples at Pipli Sahib Gurudwara. With His identity still veiled by the blanket, He distributed the parshad among them and then bent to touch each person's feet. Now, each individual has his own aura, which is a minimum of six inches deep. The stronger the person is spiritually, the deeper is the aura, for it is charged with the thoughts of that being. So, when Guru Arjan went nearer to the group of people, those who did a little meditation became aware of the radiation which emanated from Him. They said to themselves, "This must be some very Great Soul, indeed, Who has served us this night." They asked their blanket-covered Benefactor what He would like in return for His kindness, and He replied, "Dear ones, I humbly beg of you, when you go before your Guru, ask Him to bless me, make me a disciple, and also give me the great gift of humility as long as there is breath in my body." He then quietly slipped away and returned to His residence. A few minutes later, the group from Lahore arrived in His presence and saw the same blanket-covered Person Who had served them at the gurudwara. This is yet another example of the deep humility of Guru Arjan Sahib, Who termed Himself but half a Sikh. What, indeed then, would we find in a complete Sikh?
Everyone suffers from the three miseries. There are perhaps a few who, like the small child, would sacrifice their physical or mental comfort for the company of the Guru; but most people put the world first and the Guru afterward. It should, of course, be vice versa; but we are inclined to weigh these things as if on a balance machine. Those who decide that the Guru has more weight have crossed the biggest hurdle of life, but those who weigh the world heavily will remain in the world. He called Himself a half-Sikh - He Who was a Gurusikh. Then what are we? We think we are gurusikhs; but, in fact, we are mansikhs - disciples of the mind.

 

[spnadmin]

That is a good question Pyramid ji. And I don't have a very good answer. I took out those words mostly because they at the point where they enter the conversation were turning up the volume on the emotions in the thread. Also in my reading of Bhagat's use of that -- he wasn't directing it against a specific person or persons -- in my mind. Mods may actually differ on this. You know I went back and re-read. He was talking to you. Apologies. So I have to watch this in the future.

At this point I am hoping moderation will get people to calm down because when emotions build that leads to deletions of entire posts, rather a line here or there, warnings and infractions -- which I don't like to do on principle.

 

[Pyramid]

Cyber Sangat Ji,

a request from papi yograj: Please provide Gurbani lines every time you provide a translation of Gurbani, Many people dont read translations, they only read guru wak.
Your effort will be really appreciated.

Tuhada Das
Yograj

 

[Pyramid]

That is a good question Pyramid ji. And I don't have a very good answer. I took out those words mostly because they at the point where they enter the conversation were turning up the volume on the emotions in the thread. Also in my reading of Bhagat's use of that -- he wasn't directing it against a specific person or persons -- in my mind. Mods may actually differ on this.

At this point I am hoping moderation will get people to calm down because when emotions build that leads to deletions of entire posts, rather a line here or there, warnings and infractions -- which I don't like to do on principle.

So in general, Only pyramid is supposed to learn ethics, not anyone else.

Good Bey and Good Luck all, I was at a wrong place. I shared with the sangat what I have. I hope it will(thread) not be deleted, so others can read it. There are many who will like it and will be able to get aware of the misguidance being provided by many in the form of sweet statements.


WE DONT NEED ANY:
1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!),
2. CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),
3. KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),
4. KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),
5. CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!),
6. UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES,
7. FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,
8. KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS.

GOOD BEY ALL- GURU NANAK IS ALWAYS WITH US.

 

[spnadmin]

Apologies, Pyramid ji. I am confessing to carelessness on my part.

 

[Astroboy]

Aad Ji,

Why do some people find scapegoats to get out of a loosing debate ?

I thought he could take any knocks and blows. I'm dissappointed for not having a worthy opponent.

 

[pk70]

The entire issue of challenging bani has to do with this manipulation of Truth. It is one thing to question, seeking deeper understanding. But to undermine, refute and challenge basic Sikh teaching isn't questioning at all...it is like the termite seeking to destroy foundation.

All these fine hair-splitting positions are designed to erode the authenticity and authority of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, Rehat Maryada, vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji and vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, and various historical commentaries which all the Takhts analyze, weigh and consider. These arguments are cleverly constructed to raise doubt in the mind of Guru's Sikhs about institutions of Gursikhi such as Kande-ki Pohul, daily recitation of nitenam, panj kakkars, and the underpinnings of Rehat Maryada and the very existence of the Khalsa. In short, they invent a new kind of Sikhi which please the secular person who doesn't want commitment to a Guru.

If one listens to the actual words of people like Kala Afghana, he goes so far as to challenge there is no atma...there is no karam...there is no paap...there is no Vaheguru. The man is an atheist acting as a missionary to preach the eroding disbeliefs and instill doubt in Sikhism. His supporters are more clever than he...they quote sweet Gurbani, and then challenge only certain things to erode confidence, like taking only a small step in an atheistic, anti-Gurmat direction.

To have discussions is fine. Even to have sincere questions is fine. But to impose atheistic secular philosophy into Gurmat Sikh teaching creates an uproar. And why not? It isn't clever talk anymore. Its a direct challenge to the legitimacy of Sikhism, history of Sikhism, culture of Sikhism and essential Sikh belief and institutions. It becomes anti-Gurmat missionary propaganda against the explicit directives of Akal Takht.

Go and debate whatever you want. Accept this but don't accept that. Take this part but tear apart the legitimacy of that part.... Once someone becomes a PREACHER of something against Sikh teaching on a public forum, and challenges the authority of Akal Takht on these matters...HE ENDS THE DISCUSSION for Sikhs.

When someone starts misleading people it is in fact a serious cause for worry.

And thats what these challenges and underminings are about. To lead people AWAY from Gurmat Gursikhi. This is how insidious this is...if we were having a discussion with atheists, secularists, Muslims, Christians, etc. We could present a Sikh position while respecting their right of difference. But this is a Sikh forum. And these debates are happening between Sikh people eroding the validity of Gursikh teaching. To what purpose? To justify lifestyle in contradiction to Gurmat while having the name Gurmat? It is a lie, a fraud, an audacity, and a challenge.

These are the same people who tell you it's okay for a Sikh to cut hair. To cut a child's hair until he is of age to decide for himself. They say a Sikh doesn't need amrit, and say there is no need for amrit at all because it is just self-righteous hypocrisy. These people take and pick what they choose from Gurbani, and go so far as to deny that some bani is even bani. They say don't believe the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, or vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji or supporting vaaran of the Rehat Mayada, or even rehitnamay...they say it is only opinion...and they have a better, more informed, modern opinion! In short, they make an atheism out of a religion! They make an individual patchwork out of what should be surrendered submission to a SatGuru! They are making THEMSELVES equal to Guru! Because they interpret for themselves only what they want.

But that is not the case in Gurmat Gursikhi. Every bania, and every vaaran which have been accepted by the Takhts since the foundation of Sikhi all agree and cross-confirm. There is no contradiction at all.

Well, all opinions and debates are fruitless unless they are Guru-oriented. So the simplest answer is...what does Gurbani say? And here is the answer.

And for those who are searching for the real knowledge can read the shabads posted below. Because only HE who has penetrated the insights of both the nirgun and sargun aspects of Vaheguru is merged with Vaheguru. No human being can possibly do this. The human brain is finite. Only a much greater being is even capable of knowing what no human being can know.

And for those who are searching can read the entire shabad leading to this statement. Mods concerns with this post have already been cited below.

Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji
*************************** ***************It will be my pleasure to discuss with you any thing related with Gurbani or Dasam Granth. *************** In another thread *****************************I am not in habit of judging people and I resent that. strongly.
Before I analyze your views in context of this thread, let me inform you that I have very poor marks for Kalaafgana, Ghaga, joginder Singh Spokesman etc since I strongly feel that their show is all about money making. If any thing I say is contrary to your views, *******************************
The two shabad you have quoted are not new, we( all those who agree with me or disagree with me) have been giving such references to justify our views. Only Guru ji knows who is right or who is not. Doubtless Satguru Sahiban witnessed hypocrisy in their times. Stress is on understanding Gurubani. Merely bowing or seeing Guru is questioned by Satguru himself
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 594}
( means in essence: all the people want to see Satguru but merely seeing(meeting) Satguru will not help in liberation( Why) because just by doing ritual of meeting or seeing doe not help in eliminating ego and, true love for the creator doesn’t blossom within the heart)
So by just reciting Gurbani cannot be helpful provided Gurumat is not followed in its totality.
In Guru Granth Sahib ji, dominating instruction by Guru ji is to have him in heart. For that, one’s heart should be free of ego, anger greed, lust . No special day or season is required as it is very common in Hinduism, in other words, always His memory should be in heart so that our mind is kept on track.
ਨਾਨਕ ਰੁਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੀ ਸਾਈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਕੇਹੀ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1254}
In essence When HE is heart the season is wonderful, without Him, no season is good)
Without cleaning mind, no practice is accepted by Satguru
ਮਨਿ ਮੈਲੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ (39)
( in essence meaning: if the mind is corrupt with primal forces and duality, His simran is not possible)
It is just a battle within, outside appearance is of no use if that battle with in is lost to primal forces.
In this context all religiously accepted things were disregarded by Guru Nanak ji
ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨ (Japji)
All becomes useless if mind is corrupt,
***************************as per Guru Hukm we try to dispel our doubts. I don’t know if you are aware of Bhai Mani Singh ji Sahib who wrote “Gurbani parbodh sagar” He,also makes mistakes while interpreting Gurbani. If we do not share with each other how we shall learn? Certainly you will call it hair splitting but for me it is very important to see if the meaning given by the interpreter is really conveys the message of Guru. I******************************** Here is just an example how wonderful Gyani Bhai Mani Singh ji can make mistake and why we as Sikhs should be careful.
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 139}
Here is Gyani ji’s interpretation on page 82-83”Gurbani Parvodh”
“ That Waheguru is without eyes but being observer watches all. He hasn’t any ears but he listens to every one. He is without feet but in others’ feet His walking power is present. He is without hands but every ones hands’ power of holding is His. He is without tongue but in others languages, His power is present. This way one who understands His ordinance and by being indifference to outside world, can meet Him”
This interpretation is unacceptable, it doesn’t convey Guru message, a Sikh should be alert about that. Now let’s read Dr. Sahib Singh’s interpretation, here it is
If one sees without eyes( meaning without looking at others things etc), without ears listens( means do not heed attention to others back biting etc) if without feet walks( means stops going to bad places or to do wrong), without hands one works( doesn’t use hands to snatch from others rights etc) without tongue one speaks( who doesn’t use tongue to slander other etc) this is the way to live without ego (living while dead means living without ago). So this way one understands His ordinance. In simple words all efforts should be put to mold our mind to live without ego and by being pure)
Gyani Mani Singh ji is not just like me who just happen to be on this site, he has a good credit of influencing people and directing people to Sikhi. Here Gyani ji is dead wrong.
On this site we have been discussing about interpretation of Gurbani, people here on this site have different views about it, I respect that. Only on one point I do give stress though, if any interpretation goes against Guru Sahib’s Principles, it should not be accepted. If that is strong language to swallow, I won’t say that but will keep saying that it doesn’t convey the message Guru ji intends to do as I have quoted one example above, the interpretation must be questioned. This kind of misinterpretation is a common place practice in Sikhs circles. When I see I try to express my concerns. That is all. *******************

 

[spnadmin]

Aad Ji,

Why do some people find scapegoats to get out of a loosing debate ?

I thought he could take any knocks and blows. I'm disappointed for not having a worthy opponent.

No NamJap -- Sometimes feelings get hurt. You can end up feeling as if you are standing all alone. I hope Pyramid accepts my apology. This was not him finding a scapegoat. When you believe in your point of view and you want to be heard --- well, all this yelling people are doing is keeping everyone from being heard. And understood. Maybe Pyramid will accept my apology.

 

[Astroboy]

....and come back into the ring. I think he's just resting and will take me by surprise. I've enjoyed his spirit. I wanted to feel his spirit through his words. He motivates me.

Here's the Guruvaak :


ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਗੁਣਵੰਤੀ ॥
सूही महला ५ गुणवंती ॥
Sūhī mehlā 5 guṇvanṯī.
Soohee, Fifth Mehl, Gunvantee ~ The Worthy And Virtuous Bride:

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
जो दीसै गुरसिखड़ा तिसु निवि निवि लागउ पाइ जीउ ॥
Jo ḏīsai gursikẖ­ṛā ṯis niv niv lāga­o pā­ė jī­o.
When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet.

ਆਖਾ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਜਣੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
आखा बिरथा जीअ की गुरु सजणु देहि मिलाइ जीउ ॥
Ākẖā birthā jī­a kī gur sajaṇ ḏeh milā­ė jī­o.
I tell to him the pain of my soul, and beg him to unite me with the Guru, my Best Friend.

ਸੋਈ ਦਸਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਅਨਤ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
सोई दसि उपदेसड़ा मेरा मनु अनत न काहू जाइ जीउ ॥
So­ī ḏas upḏėsṛā mėrā man anaṯ na kāhū jā­ė jī­o.
I ask that he impart to me such an understanding, that my mind will not go out wandering anywhere else.

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਤੈ ਕੂੰ ਡੇਵਸਾ ਮੈ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਦੇਹੁ ਬਤਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
इहु मनु तै कूं डेवसा मै मारगु देहु बताइ जीउ ॥
Ih man ṯai kūʼn dėvsā mai mārag ḏėh baṯā­ė jī­o.
I dedicate this mind to you. Please, show me the Path to God.

ਹਉ ਆਇਆ ਦੂਰਹੁ ਚਲਿ ਕੈ ਮੈ ਤਕੀ ਤਉ ਸਰਣਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
हउ आइआ दूरहु चलि कै मै तकी तउ सरणाइ जीउ ॥
Ha­o ā­i­ā ḏẖūrahu cẖal kai mai ṯakī ṯa­o sarṇā­ė jī­o.
I have come so far, seeking the Protection of Your Sanctuary.

ਮੈ ਆਸਾ ਰਖੀ ਚਿਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਭੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
मै आसा रखी चिति महि मेरा सभो दुखु गवाइ जीउ ॥
Mai āsā rakẖī cẖiṯ meh mėrā sabẖo ḏukẖ gavā­ė jī­o.
Within my mind, I place my hopes in You; please, take my pain and suffering away!

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਚਲੇ ਭਾਈਅੜੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
इतु मारगि चले भाईअड़े गुरु कहै सु कार कमाइ जीउ ॥
Iṯ mārag cẖalė bẖā­ī­aṛė gur kahai so kār kamā­ė jī­o.
So walk on this Path, O sister soul-brides; do that work which the Guru tells you to do.

ਤਿਆਗੇਂ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤੜੀ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਂ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥
तिआगें मन की मतड़ी विसारें दूजा भाउ जीउ ॥
Ŧi­āgėʼn man kī maṯ­ṛī visārėʼn ḏūjā bẖā­o jī­o.
Abandon the intellectual pursuits of the mind, and forget the love of duality.

ਇਉ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਾਵੜਾ ਨਹ ਲਗੈ ਤਤੀ ਵਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥
इउ पावहि हरि दरसावड़ा नह लगै तती वाउ जीउ ॥
I­o pāvahi har ḏarsāvaṛā nah lagai ṯaṯī vā­o jī­o.
In this way, you shall obtain the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; the hot winds shall not even touch you.

ਹਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਮੈ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਹੁਕਮਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥
हउ आपहु बोलि न जाणदा मै कहिआ सभु हुकमाउ जीउ ॥
Ha­o āphu bol na jāṇḏā mai kahi­ā sabẖ hukmā­o jī­o.
By myself, I do not even know how to speak; I speak all that the Lord commands.

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਬਖਸਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਕੀਆ ਪਸਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥
हरि भगति खजाना बखसिआ गुरि नानकि कीआ पसाउ जीउ ॥
Har bẖagaṯ kẖajānā bakẖsi­ā gur Nānak kī­ā pasā­o jī­o.
I am blessed with the treasure of the Lord's devotional worship; Guru Nanak has been kind and compassionate to me.

ਮੈ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਭੁਖੜੀ ਹਉ ਰਜਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਅਘਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
मै बहुड़ि न त्रिसना भुखड़ी हउ रजा त्रिपति अघाइ जीउ ॥
Mai bahuṛ na ṯarisnā bẖukẖ­ṛī ha­o rajā ṯaripaṯ agẖā­ė jī­o.
I shall never again feel hunger or thirst; I am satisfied, satiated and fulfilled.

ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਦੀਸੈ ਸਿਖੜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
जो गुर दीसै सिखड़ा तिसु निवि निवि लागउ पाइ जीउ ॥३॥
Jo gur ḏīsai sikẖ­ṛā ṯis niv niv lāga­o pā­ė jī­o. ||3||
When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet. ||3||

 

[spnadmin]

 

[Daanveer]

Aad Ji,

Why do some people find scapegoats to get out of a loosing debate ?

I thought he could take any knocks and blows. I'm dissappointed for not having a worthy opponent.

Pyramid(Yograj) was a winner and he is a winner.

Pyramid is a winner right from the beggining. And those who were trying to prove him wrong were so scared of loosing that they started using cheap means and he proved that mistreatment right on the spot.

I hope if a statement like the above(by namjap) can stay, my statement deserves to stay as well. Or am I a lower grade SPN member!

Please forgive me If I hurt anybody's feelings.

 

[Daanveer]

So in general, Only pyramid is supposed to learn ethics, not anyone else.

Good Bey and Good Luck all, I was at a wrong place. I said what I wanted to say. I hope it will(thread) not be deleted, so others can read it. There are many who will like it and will be able to get aware of the misguidance being provided by many in the form of sweet statements.


WE DONT NEED ANY:
1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!),
2. CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),
3. KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),
4. KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),
5. CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!),
6. UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES,
7. FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,
8. KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS.

GOOD BEY ALL- GURU NANAK IS ALWAYS WITH US.

Pyramid Ji,

I cant say about this website, but from now on, I will make sure that your essay(first post) goes on every other website I visit.

Thanks for guiding us in such a bold way. I am inspired to make my brothers and sisters, friends and family, aquaintances and strangers aware of such practices.

Thanks a lot.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Pk70 ji,

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 139}
Here is Gyani ji’s interpretation on page 82-83”Gurbani Parvodh”
“ That Waheguru is without eyes but being observer watches all. He hasn’t any ears but he listens to every one. He is without feet but in others’ feet His walking power is present. He is without hands but every ones hands’ power of holding is His. He is without tongue but in others languages, His power is present. This way one who understands His ordinance and by being indifference to outside world, can meet Him”
This interpretation is unacceptable, it doesn’t convey Guru message, a Sikh should be alert about that. Now let’s read Dr. Sahib Singh’s interpretation, here it is
If one sees without eyes( meaning without looking at others things etc), without ears listens( means do not heed attention to others back biting etc) if without feet walks( means stops going to bad places or to do wrong), without hands one works( doesn’t use hands to snatch from others rights etc) without tongue one speaks( who doesn’t use tongue to slander other etc) this is the way to live without ego (living while dead means living without ago). So this way one understands His ordinance. In simple words all efforts should be put to mold our mind to live without ego and by being pure)
Gyani Mani Singh ji is not just like me who just happen to be on this site, he has a good credit of influencing people and directing people to Sikhi. Here Gyani ji is dead wrong.
On this site we have been discussing about interpretation of Gurbani, people here on this site have different views about it, I respect that. Only on one point I do give stress though, if any interpretation goes against Guru Sahib’s Principles, it should not be accepted. If that is strong language to swallow, I won’t say that but will keep saying that it doesn’t convey the message Guru ji intends to do as I have quoted one example above, the interpretation must be questioned. This kind of misinterpretation is a common place practice in Sikhs circles. When I see I try to express my concerns. That is all. *******************

Sorry to disappoint you. Although your explaination is much better than the former but it is also incorrect. Guru ji is describing here is a deeper view of spirituality. It is an experience of being in a meditative state. It is a high level of awareness that cannot be explained but only experienced.

I find it is pointless to elaborate deep philosphical issues in this forum. There is not person of merit here. My sympathies are with you and Namjap ji.

WE DONT NEED ANY:
1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!),
2. CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),
3. KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),
4. KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),
5. CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!),
6. UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES,
7. FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,
8. KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS.

GOOD BEY ALL- GURU NANAK IS ALWAYS WITH US.

If you lack understanding then accept it as your own weakness and improve on it. In one of your post some time back you said something to the effect.

"Moorakh naal na rujiae"

In keeping with the above verse I decided not to respond to your thread. You are very confused.

If the above is the limit to your understanding then as Guru ji said once "Bassey Raho"

ekmusafir_ajnabi

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Aad0002 says: "In your recent comments you have referred to other members as termites, atheists, followers of an aetheist, doubt-raisers, anti-Gurmat, under-miners of Sikhism, liars, and more. No one individual has been singled out, however you seem to have taken aim at the entire discussion. No matter how wrong or how deluded some may be in your eyes, please debate the issues, not personalities."

Kala Afghana is a declared tankiya and excommunicated from the Sikh Panth. If you listen to his talks, he is a declared atheist. He and his supporters, followers of Sikh Missionary groups are in fact doubt-raisers since they challenge the legitimacy of Sikh beliefs and in particular, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani. They are anti-Gurmat because the substance of what they preach is contrary to Sikhism AND the express directives of Akal Takht. By doing these activities of misleading other people AWAY from Sikh teaching are undermining Sikh religion they are in fact termites working to undermine the foundations of the Sikh faith.

If "other members" hold and preach these views then they choose to single themselves out. To say I have aimed at the entire discussion when it has been stated by mahjor Sikh bodies including Akal Takht that NO NINDYA OF SRI DASAM GRANTH SAHIB JI BANI IS TO BE ALLOWED, then you are right. Where this has occured, I have pointed out it is in direct violation of the edict of Akal Takht Sahib Ji.

Akal Takht itself has declared these people as mischievious and their message as trash talk.

On November, 26, 2006 Sri Akal Takht Sahib issued a directive that labeled those criticizing Sri Dasam Granth as "ਸ਼ਰਾਰਤੀ ਅਨਸਰ" (mischievous) and their message as "ਕੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ" (trash talk) ; it also requested Panthic scholars to give fitting reply to these detractors (ਢੁਕਵਾਂ ਉੱਤਰ ਦੇਣ).

http://www.panthic.org/news/123/ARTICLE/3913/2008-02-21.html

Now, I have not singled any person out as wearing this description. But the description is valid for all points raised. Their is to be no nindya of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji tolerated by Sikhs. And If this discussion is taking the position to support a declared tankiya's views, then yes, I am against that discussion, because Akal Takht has asked the Sikh sangat NOT to support such discussions.

I have never once said anything about any personality. But you may feel free to discriminate against my posting here. I expect it, because that has happened in the past. But I cannot modify my views as I am conforming them to the position of Akal Takht and not to you. It isn't benign conversation when people challenge the authority of Akal Takht and support positions of a declared tankiya which the Akal Takht Sahib Ji has called "trash talk." If some forum members wish to support the tankiya and promote his views, then it is precisely those views which come under criticism and fire, and not any personality.

I am challenging the expressed views and positions, not any person. Stop accusing me of debating personalities falsely. I have nothing to say about any personal character of individuals. I am solely adressing apostate views which are declared anti-Gurmat. Because they ARE in fact, anti-Gurmat. Not "in my eyes," but as declared by Akal Takht, and major Sikh bodies SGPC, Damdami Taksal, AKJ,etc.

If bani is not bani, but only some is real bani...if Guruji is not in form of the Vaheguru, then on what foundation does Sikhism stand? Anyone's opinion is equal to Guru? Maybe they believe modern scholars are wiser than Guru? They are asserting Gurbani can be debated to death and taken apart piece by piece. And who would say this position is acceptable and not anti-Gurmat? Either it is all true or none of it is true. There can be no middle ground debate on Guru or Gurbani.

Yesterday and today, das read a few very interesting comments on the net. Sharing with all to know everybody’s view:
A very highly regarded, knowledgeable Gusikh telling a new Gursikh: “With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”

Source: (Literal Meaning of Gurbani)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html

Another Gursikh telling a Gursikh: "I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism. This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past."

Source: (Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the...)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-43.html

Another Gursikh Telling a Gursikh: ""Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now ***** is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. "

Source: (Literal Meaning of Gurbani)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html

Another Gursikh’s comments:“In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page”

Source: (Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the...)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-42.html

To das the above lines read like- don’t believe in some Bani and believe in some. It also reads that there are some Gur Waks or Bhatt Bani that is UNTRUE, NOT WORTH BELIEVING, or CORRUPT. It also read to das that all those Sikhs are blind who believe all the Bani to be True as IT IS.

 

[Archived_Member1]

I find it is pointless to elaborate deep philosphical issues in this forum. There is not person of merit here.

is this kind of mass insult really necessary?

Mr. Traveling Stranger... if you find it pointless to discuss "philosphical" (your spelling, not mine) issues here, why do you continue to do it? isn't it kind of silly to do something repeatedly if you know it's pointless anyway? perhaps your time could better be spent in the company of greater people than us?

just a thought from this pointless forum reader.

 

[spnadmin]

Harjas ji

As mod, I don't have any problem with statements like this one below because they are expressions of opinion accompanied by fact.

Kala Afghana is a declared tankiya and excommunicated from the Sikh Panth. If you listen to his talks, he is a declared atheist. He and his supporters, followers of Sikh Missionary groups are in fact doubt-raisers since they challenge the legitimacy of Sikh beliefs and in particular, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani. They are anti-Gurmat because the substance of what they preach is contrary to Sikhism AND the express directives of Akal Takht. But one is jumping to conclusions when SPN members are also described this way. And it is unfair. The termite part is not necessary.
By doing these activities of misleading other people AWAY from Sikh teaching are undermining Sikh religion they are in fact termites working to undermine the foundations of the Sikh faith.

The part below works as an expression of opinion and you are debating an issue not a person in this section. OK.
If "other members" hold and preach these views then they choose to single themselves out.

Even if Akal Takht were to call people names, they are doing that in their own context, and people can decide whether it is dignified or not. I have noticed that arguments get hot and heavy in the Punjab too. SPN asks usto debate the issue, not the person. That is our policy. This is an Internet forum. That is our context.

To say I have aimed at the entire discussion when it has been stated by mahjor Sikh bodies including Akal Takht that NO NINDYA OF SRI DASAM GRANTH SAHIB JI BANI IS TO BE ALLOWED, then you are right. Where this has occured, I have pointed out it is in direct violation of the edict of Akal Takht Sahib Ji.

Speaking not-as-mod, my opinion is exactly the same as yours. But when these threads travel down the name-calling path, there is no way to get things back to a discussion. Thanks for returning to the topic so we can vet our points of view.

 

[spnadmin]

Jasleen ji

Mass insults are another moderation problem. As long as ad hominem arguments are avoided, we have to let it go and let others form their own judgments about the insult and the person who does this.

Do not be discouraged.

 

[Sikh80]

Respected aad002 ji,

For the benefit of all those who are not able to keep the track would you very kindly state as to what exactly is being discussed now. I am lost. Kindly state in brief as to what is the outstanding issue that is not resolved.

I am also not good at spellings

Thanks and regards.

 

[pk70]

Pk70 ji,


Sorry to disappoint you. Although your explaination is much better than the former but it is also incorrect. Guru ji is describing here is a deeper view of spirituality. It is an experience of being in a meditative state. It is a high level of awareness that cannot be explained but only experienced.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi ji

Truely I am not disappointed. This explanation is by Dr Sahib Singh ji whom I regard a lot. You have disagreed with him, you should have posted your "correct" version of explanation to share with SPN fellows. Nothing is wrong with pointing out a point if left by some one.I personally feel he did good job because whatever he has said, only man with high spiritual state of mind can do otherwise for regular people like me it is just a dream. Your interpretation will be highly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji

You are asking me, one who is also lost and is also not very good at spelling. Every time I think an outline of the discussion would help -- who said what, who disagreed, what are all the opposing points of view, why there is disagreement, what new thought emerged, something happens. And instead I have to go around deleting remarks, reminding people of forum rules, and losing my motivation.

Maybe I can do this in the morning -- it is after midnight here -- and post it. But would that help?