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Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

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Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

Have You Married Out of Your Caste/Race/Tribe? Why or Why Not?

  • Yes

    Votes: 113 38.4%
  • No

    Votes: 181 61.6%

  • Total voters
    294

itsmaneet

SPNer
Jun 13, 2012
215
156
34
Nagpur, India
My answer is No.

I married in the same religion & caste. The only reason was easy adjustment by the two families and of course couples due to almost similar life styles & believes.

I personally feel that human race is ONE & but the same time life style differs.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,762
8,156
50
My answer is No.

I married in the same religion & caste. The only reason was easy adjustment by the two families and of course couples due to almost similar life styles & believes.

I personally feel that human race is ONE & but the same time life style differs.
Ahhh very cosy. It also assists in keeping the same rituals and the same traditions alive, then we can have same caste Gurdwaras, same caste gatherings.

I find it quite hilarious that to actually break this, to actually say 'who cares' would make the spirit of the Gurus quite happy in my opinion, but it would anger many in the community.

To have no caste, I consider to be as important as having hair.
 

Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
389
146
Canada.
Well, I look at caste the way anyone does, like "Oh they're Brahmin" or anything, but I do not think anyone is actually better than someone just because they are born into a specific caste. I look at caste as if it's a ethnicity sort. & I'm no racist. winkingmunda
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,762
8,156
50
Well, I look at caste the way anyone does, like "Oh they're Brahmin" or anything, but I do not think anyone is actually better than someone just because they are born into a specific caste. I look at caste as if it's a ethnicity sort. & I'm no racist. winkingmunda
anyone? Sorry but I do not look at caste in that way. I find it a complete irrelevancy.

To treat caste as an ethnicity is no different, it implies I belong here, you belong there, Sikhism is about complete inclusion regardless, we are all here together, and that is why the caste issue is so destructive, it means different castes go to different Gurdwaras, etc, something I think the Gurus would be dissapointed to find.
 

Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
389
146
Canada.
I don't understand what you are trying to say about you belong there etc..
I don't think we should have everything different like how you are saying, but mixing around would maybe start arguments with one another if they believe in the caste system.. this discussion is too deep aha.
 

Luckysingh

Writer
SPNer
Dec 4, 2011
1,633
2,748
Vancouver
There are as many people against interracial marriage as are against inter-caste.
I'm not so sure !!
Because, I sense that some of the elders nowadays are more concerned in all aspects.
It's obvious that especially in the west, the chances of a marriage not being arranged is quite high.
However, from the way people talk and especially the elders, I find that they regard caste as a bigger issue and more to talk or gossip about.
A lot of these people would be more opposed to a Jatt with a Churah or chamar marriage than they would be to a Punjabi-Gora, or Punjabi-european...etc.
More so, you hear young teenagers telling you that their sikh parents will tell them ''You can choose who you marry, as long as they are punjabi and indian and NOT muslim''
With this they often mean that a sikh's child with a hindu's child is fine, but a sikh's child with a muslim's child is a no,no.

So, in general it seems that most parents prefer their child to marry an indian or punjabi preferebly in the same caste. Saying this they would rather have their child marrying a gora or non-punjabi than marrying a lower punjabi caste family.
 
Nov 23, 2010
263
599
I'm a white guy from the U.S.A. who married a somewhat dark skinned Mexicana. She is mistaken for Indian some times. My parents and hers are perfectly fine with this but my grandmother is probably spinning in her grave. We're both Sikh now.
It really is rather disapointing that after so many years this is still a topic among "Sikhs" I'm agree with Harry ji what good does it do to be "Amritdhari" if you can't pay attention to the most basic part of the teachings. We are all equal hence no castes.
 

palaingtha

SPNer
Aug 28, 2012
270
294
88
I'm a white guy from the U.S.A. who married a somewhat dark skinned Mexicana. She is mistaken for Indian some times. My parents and hers are perfectly fine with this but my grandmother is probably spinning in her grave. We're both Sikh now.
It really is rather disapointing that after so many years this is still a topic among "Sikhs" I'm agree with Harry ji what good does it do to be "Amritdhari" if you can't pay attention to the most basic part of the teachings. We are all equal hence no castes.

In the world of intelligent animals (i.e. humans) there is bondage called discipline.
 

missnice91

SPNer
Jan 26, 2013
14
23
United Kingdom
I don't care about caste but I think my dad does. Is such a bad thing to marry out of caste?
Living in the UK.. it's difficult enough to find a Sikh guy. Caste is taking a bit too far isn't it? Would it be ok to marry someone with same religion 'Sikh' but a different caste? Don't they all go to the same gurdwara or are they separate? :s Help
 

palaingtha

SPNer
Aug 28, 2012
270
294
88
anyone? Sorry but I do not look at caste in that way. I find it a complete irrelevancy.

To treat caste as an ethnicity is no different, it implies I belong here, you belong there, Sikhism is about complete inclusion regardless, we are all here together, and that is why the caste issue is so destructive, it means different castes go to different Gurdwaras, etc, something I think the Gurus would be dissapointed to find.
How many of your family/clan members have married from the families of so called lowest castes?.
For your information in Gurdwaras every body is welcome like others. Further you will not find any Gurdwara in the caste name of any of the so called higher castes. You will find Gurdwaras in the name of Ramgarhian Da Gurdwara but not Khatrian da Gurdwara.
It is not that only the so called high castes family Sikhs flaunt their castes. You will find almost all the Sikhs belonging to various castes use affixes after their names.
Why do we affix Gotras after our Guru Sahib's names? e.g. Sodhi Padshah, Amar Das Bhalle, Guru Nanak Dev Ji Bedi Kul vichun sun, etc. being spoken in Gurdwaras by the Ragis/Kitanias and Katha Vachaks?
Castes names for Sikhs is only for identification of a person. Our leaders affix their village names just for the sake of identity. What harm is there if one uses his Gothar as affix to his name? So long as he is not a Kamandhi for his caste it is O.K.
How about a Sikh who is very proud of his wealth, about his job title, about his higher education?
Will you give your opinion for all the above?
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,179
How many of your family/clan members have married from the families of so called lowest castes?.
For your information in Gurdwaras every body is welcome like others. Further you will not find any Gurdwara in the caste name of any of the so called higher castes. You will find Gurdwaras in the name of Ramgarhian Da Gurdwara but not Khatrian da Gurdwara.
It is not that only the so called high castes family Sikhs flaunt their castes. You will find almost all the Sikhs belonging to various castes use affixes after their names.
Why do we affix Gotras after our Guru Sahib's names? e.g. Sodhi Padshah, Amar Das Bhalle, Guru Nanak Dev Ji Bedi Kul vichun sun, etc. being spoken in Gurdwaras by the Ragis/Kitanias and Katha Vachaks?
Castes names for Sikhs is only for identification of a person. Our leaders affix their village names just for the sake of identity. What harm is there if one uses his Gothar as affix to his name? So long as he is not a Kamandhi for his caste it is O.K.
How about a Sikh who is very proud of his wealth, about his job title, about his higher education?
Will you give your opinion for all the above?
Yes and No palaingtha ji

Harry ji is tackling the religious aspect of this problem. Perhaps "ethical" aspect is a better word than "religious." You are addressing the social and cultural realities. And sometimes these cultural realities are not so obnoxious. For example, attaching the gotra name is done for the sake of identity, necessary in this world which has been made a global village by technology, television and travel to foreign lands to live, work and settle down. Far different from the days of the Guru Sahibhan.

Much of what you say is about the relatively harmless side of a reality.

The thread however comes from the questions of a young person It is about the doubts of a young person who decides to take an ethical reading of the ethical message. Then she is faced with the not-so-harmless side of the cultural reality of caste within Sikh lifestyles.

All ethical questions are thrown into confusion because the harmless, cultural practices are so often distorted into a rule of life. All one has to do is look at Sikh matrimonials to see how deeply caste is burned into the Sikh psyche. How many Sikhs permit their awareness of Guru Nanak's message to get in the way of making socially and culturally respectable choices. Intercaste marriages even escalate into honour killings and forced-marriage. Not pretty.

We need in this discussion to come up with a way for all young people to think through the consequences of their thinking and actions and make decisions that will be consistent with their ethical values and at the same time not bring them to emotional or physical harm. Who wants to start that list of tough questions? Questions are going to be more helpful than advice.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,762
8,156
50
Palaingthaji

How many of your family/clan members have married from the families of so called lowest castes?.
I have no idea, other than my parents, I do not socialise with the clan.

For your information in Gurdwaras every body is welcome like others
hardly, each caste seems to have its own Gurdwaras where that caste is welcome.

Further you will not find any Gurdwara in the caste name of any of the so called higher castes
I fail to see your point....

It is not that only the so called high castes family Sikhs flaunt their castes. You will find almost all the Sikhs belonging to various castes use affixes after their names.
uhm Sikhs are known for flaunting more than their castes, one only has to look at any Gurudwara car park to see that, or listen to any Ardass, flaunting anything we can comes second nature.

How about a Sikh who is very proud of his wealth, about his job title, about his higher education?
Such a Sikh I would find tedious.

Will you give your opinion for all the above?
Sure, living as I do, out of the loop, I have no need to pay lip service to any concept I do not agree with. I do not agree with the caste system, I do not agree with seperate Gurdwaras based on caste, I do not agree with forced intercaste marriage, and I find anyone who insists on letting others know what caste they are, comical.

In any case, I am Khatri, and we Khatris take Sikhism very seriously, its very simple, we are allowed to do anything, as long as we look like Sikhs, and don't get caught. If only my wife had a caste, she could feel she had done very well, but unfortunately, she does not.
 
Last edited:

palaingtha

SPNer
Aug 28, 2012
270
294
88
Palaingthaji

I have no idea, other than my parents, I do not socialise with the clan.

hardly, each caste seems to have its own Gurdwaras where that caste is welcome.

I fail to see your point....

uhm Sikhs are known for flaunting more than their castes, one only has to look at any Gurudwara car park to see that, or listen to any Ardass, flaunting anything we can comes second nature.

Such a Sikh I would find tedious.

Sure, living as I do, out of the loop, I have no need to pay lip service to any concept I do not agree with. I do not agree with the caste system, I do not agree with seperate Gurdwaras based on caste, I do not agree with forced intercaste marriage, and I find anyone who insists on letting others know what caste they are, comical.

In any case, I am Khatri, and we Khatris take Sikhism very seriously, its very simple, we are allowed to do anything, as long as we look like Sikhs, and don't get caught. If only my wife had a caste, she could feel she had done very well, but unfortunately, she does not.
You will appreciate that you will not find a Gurdwara as "Khatrian da Gurdwara", although there is one in Mumbai by the name of "Puthuharian da Gurdwara". Puthuhar is a Region in Punjab, where I myself belong. That dose not mean "Khatrian da" as in Puthuhar there are several Sikh castes. Regarding castes what is objectionable in Sikhism is "Hankar" on account ones so called High Caste. In Punja, the Jats have taken to affix the name of village to which they belong , thus avoiding to use Family identity. This is a superfluous practice. The present President of SGPC affied his Goutra after his name before being elected to the post, but he has dropped the said Family name. Fickle minded. He couldn't justify why he was using the family name heretofore. What a pity!
To say that all Khatris are hypocrites is unacceptable. Some people, of whatever caste they are from, have high moral values. The so called lower castes are at a loss to maintain high morale for the conditions their fate has put them into. A marriage is a life long commitment between two souls and it is very necessary that their thinking and living is on the same plane. So it is more of a social status to choose and therefore people go for like status/caste in Sikh families.
For your information, my brother has married one of his sons to a girl from "Ramgariah" family.
In Ardas you are required to give your name---- and what is your full name? If you are using your Family name as Suffix you have to provide it to the Giani doing Ardas.
I had said that you will find Gurdwaras with the name of Ramdasia, Ramgariah etc. but not Khatrias. So where is the fault of so called high castes when only the practice is with the so called lower castes.
If you suffix your Surname (In which there is no harm) people will know what caste you belong to. It is bad to be proud of ones higher caste and sneer at other castes.
 

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