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Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

Have You Married Out of Your Caste/Race/Tribe? Why or Why Not?

  • Yes

    Votes: 113 38.4%
  • No

    Votes: 181 61.6%

  • Total voters
    294

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Atheist ji

Your last response has been moved.

I think I was being polite and careful of feelings when I asked all future replies to this thread to remain on the topic of caste and race. I explained that I left the earlier posts in place, but that those wishing to continue the discussion regarding atheism should go to this thread.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/atheism/29698-is-atheism-dogmatic.html

No future requests will be made, or explanations given. All posters - Please stay on topic.
 

Naam

SPNer
Oct 15, 2010
30
25
I would like to commit on this topic
Starting off by saying it is nice to marry in the race
But because of our past " karm" we have no choice
As you know our sikh men and women indulage in forbidden grounds eg adultery etc ....therefore thay have " created " a " laaka" so as you can see this laaka is sometimes the result of out caste marriage or os a beginning of a new laaka
Mahal 1 " mun masvani kagth karni"
It is nice and life is easy to get along if the spouse adopts Sikhism But DoNot forget sihki is not yours that you can force anybody to adopt it then again even if they do be force that is not adoption b heart
I hope this clears some confusion we have
 

bsc1

SPNer
Jan 24, 2010
12
27
I would like to commit on this topic
Starting off by saying it is nice to marry in the race
But because of our past " karm" we have no choice
As you know our sikh men and women indulage in forbidden grounds eg adultery etc ....therefore thay have " created " a " laaka" so as you can see this laaka is sometimes the result of out caste marriage or os a beginning of a new laaka
Mahal 1 " mun masvani kagth karni"
It is nice and life is easy to get along if the spouse adopts Sikhism But DoNot forget sihki is not yours that you can force anybody to adopt it then again even if they do be force that is not adoption b heart
I hope this clears some confusion we have

Naam Ji..
"Nice" ,may I respectfully suggest you are a bit lost for approprite words.
It maybe easier to settle into marriage amoungest your own kind,but you must remember, diversify to avoid genetic problems (muslims are a classic warning to the human race.DO NOT marry direct blood relatives.)
Sikhs do tend to marry Sikhs as do most people of similar beliefs.Why can Asian Sikhs not marry outside of the Asians and practice their belief,are they so afraid their belief will get diluted?
I think this is a test of your belief,it's hard to break with traditions and I too would find it very hard to condone my children to marry outside of culture/religion/caste.
 

Naam

SPNer
Oct 15, 2010
30
25
Yes you are right my first choice would be to marry in the race and cast
BUT you got to think about your "past Karm" which play a BIG factor this is why you get mixed marriages that are un controllable to the point where either of the two want to commit suicide, what do you do then.......
if you believe in the guru bani then you will put your mind at rest.
 

bsc1

SPNer
Jan 24, 2010
12
27
Yes you are right my first choice would be to marry in the race and cast
BUT you got to think about your "past Karm" which play a BIG factor this is why you get mixed marriages that are un controllable to the point where either of the two want to commit suicide, what do you do then.......
if you believe in the guru bani then you will put your mind at rest.

Naam Ji...

Out of caste / race marriages are normally so called "love marriages" they have about the same success rates as arranged marriage within the same caste/race.
Don't understand the "suicide" comment ?
I'm a Sikh Jatt married to a Sikh Jatt and I hope my daughters marry Sikh Jatts...I't so deeply ingrained in our culture (mainly due to the Hindu caste system being such an intergal part of Punjabi life.)
No one wants to be first to stand up and marry thier children out of caste,it will be a brave man that gets his children married into a "lower caste."
I have NEVER heard of this happening and to be frank I don't think it will happen for a VERY long time..we are not bad or evil people it's just how things have turned out..good for the "higher castes" and not so good for the "lower caste."
NOTE: My use of the words "higher caste" and "lower caste" is not intended to offend but is the common translation into english.If anyone wishes to enlighten me with another approprite word or phrase please feel free to do so.
God Bless
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
bsc1 ji

There is a trend in the direction of inter-caste marriages that is deliberate, and even promoted as a tool for social and political change. Parents from different castes requiring an inter-caste marriage for their children as part of their ethical and political zeal to change the system. I am reading about this among Ravidassis and Ambedkar sources, and they are dead earnest to build wide support for this practice, throughout India, not limited only to Hindus.

What are your thoughts? Intuitively my reaction is that a planned program of inter-caste marriage raises as many difficulties, if not more problems, by insisting on marriage within caste. How would such advocacy affect the quom?
 
I thought Sikhism is something special because there is no Caste system by Guru Nanak's teachings.... Seems that Cast system will never go out of peoples mind.
In my opinion Caste system has spoiled the real Indian culture and society .
God has given to all people brain and eyes ... Its human beings which devide themselfs into different casts , lower , higher ... and other stupidities....
Why should lower cast people be less inteligent or less capable to do things which higher cast people do ? Just because of the deepeness of their pockets? Because in higher casts only money counts other wise mentaly retarted are everywhere higher and lowar cast. Mental deseas do not avoid richer people and choose lower cast people....Which use in todays days of any cast???
Also what about if one Sikh wants to marry somebody who does not belong to any cast? Is the non-cast person less loveable, less respectable , less worth in our eyes??? In which century do we live and with which meassurements do we judge the people???
 

Naam

SPNer
Oct 15, 2010
30
25
Please please please if you call your selfs sikhs and bowe to the Granth ji
Then read this
1)" na hum upthum nich na mathum har sarnagth har ka loog" guru nanaks shabad
2) hamri jath path guru satguru
Guru gobind singh ji made everybody drink Amrit from the same bowl WHY ???? Because the the gurbani there is NO cast
That is why we cannot become one nation
We call ourselves Sikhs but we are not sikhs of the guru Granth ji but Sikhs of "katar" pona
Cast was given by the jobs people did in the past
Eg jatts did agrictual work
Ramgria did wood work and so on

But today we find quiet the opposite and all are talented to do most kind of work
Please do not write LOWER CAST OR UPPER CLASS OR MIDDLE CLASS WE ARE ALL EQUAL
But most important the gurbani say jath KA grab na keja
 

bsc1

SPNer
Jan 24, 2010
12
27
bsc1 ji

There is a trend in the direction of inter-caste marriages that is deliberate, and even promoted as a tool for social and political change. Parents from different castes requiring an inter-caste marriage for their children as part of their ethical and political zeal to change the system. I am reading about this among Ravidassis and Ambedkar sources, and they are dead earnest to build wide support for this practice, throughout India, not limited only to Hindus.

What are your thoughts? Intuitively my reaction is that a planned program of inter-caste marriage raises as many difficulties, if not more problems, by insisting on marriage within caste. How would such advocacy affect the quom?

It is a very real but unproven peace time tactic ,that "lower castes" are deliberatley trying to dilute the "higher castes."

This happens with "ethnic cleansing" in civil wars one group will try to destroy the other group through killing the males and raping females**a disturbing truth. Examples in Rawanda (tribal) and in yugolslavia (muslim /christian)

Will one day all castes intergrate?
Will all Faiths live side by side?
Will Brown/black/white/yellow see eye to eye?

History proves it has never happened.The human race or the animal kingdom will always be at war in some form or another.
 

Naam

SPNer
Oct 15, 2010
30
25
Dear bsc1
I like you thoughts and we all must respect this
BUT the gurbani is the true and ONLY guidance we should follow
There is no cast , our ten gurus have again and again stressed that we will have be summend by the lord if we have even the thought of "uch /nich"
Once we are baptized from the 5 Sikhs they also stress we are all one , our jath path becomes SATGURU

You can find lots of shabads on jath path were I found them at this website I just happen to come a cross

Www.sabadvartara.org

your humble servant
 

bsc1

SPNer
Jan 24, 2010
12
27
Dear bsc1
I like you thoughts and we all must respect this
BUT the gurbani is the true and ONLY guidance we should follow
There is no cast , our ten gurus have again and again stressed that we will have be summend by the lord if we have even the thought of "uch /nich"
Once we are baptized from the 5 Sikhs they also stress we are all one , our jath path becomes SATGURU

You can find lots of shabads on jath path were I found them at this website I just happen to come a cross

Www.sabadvartara.org

your humble servant

Naam Ji.

Thank you for the web link.

My comments are as seen in real life.
Our respected Gurbani puts forward rules and ideas (as do all beliefs) how we interpret them and act upon them is a totally different issue.
If our Guru's could see the outcome of the Sikh princeples laid down by them...what would they think ?

50% happy with the outcome(Sikhs in top positions Indian PM,Heads of the Military,surgeons)... 50% not happy with some aspects(caste system firmly in place,drug taking in Punjabi on the increase)...
I sometimes think was all the tragic and brave sacrfice wort it?????!!.
 

ik-jivan

SPNer
May 3, 2010
68
108
It seems to me that if there is a social AGENDA of SEGREGATION based on ANY criteria, be it caste, colour, race, nationality, economic status, et cetera, it is counter to Sikh philosophy. However, at the interpersonal level there will always be some who perceive the differences between these qualities and distinctions as negative and difficult, while there will also be some who find these differences positive and enlivening.

There is nothing inherently wrong about wanting a partner who has similar views, interests, education and intelligence levels, social circle, language, cultural traditions, et cetera. Who wants to live in close proximity to someone who is so unlike one’s self that there is nothing to share in common?

Where there is a problem is with cultural taboos that prohibit or interfere with relationships between people who do have strong affinity between them. Conversely, there is a problem with cultures that attempt to unnaturally force two people to share close quarters when they are not interpersonally compatible. Ah, but on the other hand, if two incompatible people mutually agree to form a union, despite incompatibility and no doubt the good and persistent advice of family and friends, then that is between the couple and God, who brought them together.

The problem that Sikhi aims to eradicate is social agendas of human segregation, based upon any criteria. Choosing a partner, based on person choice is not a problem. Maintaining prejudices and biases against entire groups of people is a problem, because it undermines the Sikh philosophy of equality. Not wanting to share a household with a person whose character you know well enough not to like is OK. Forcing a child to share a household with someone they know well enough not to like is NOT OK.

The Christian Bible has a passage that spells out the intention of the Sikh principle of human equality and prohibition against divorce.

Mar 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? tempting him.
Mar 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

There, in the last verse is what I believe to be the core intention of the Sikh philosophy relating to this discussion. Human rules, laws, taboos and agendas should not interfere with the Divine Plan. Man has no business playing God. Waheguru lives with the heart of every being. What He Wills is His prerogative. He breaks human rules all the time just to make this point clear. And then we humans shake our heads in dismay, turn our backs on friends and abandon our children for not following our family traditions. Then we feel our own hearts break at the loss that we, ourselves have caused, regret our choices and if our egos are subdued, we recant those choices and welcome our friends and family back to the fold. It’s just the ebb and flow of the power struggle between man and God.
Life goes on mundahug and it's beautiful, however it unfolds kudihug

Sat Sri Akal,
t
 

lionsingh

SPNer
Nov 7, 2010
105
67
I married a German who was a Christian. We have a beautiful son (see Avtar). She has been treated with the utmost respect both here in the UK in the Sikh society as she was in Amritsar. I have been welcome into a foreign land. My brother married a Hindu. My parents, especially my mother are devote Sikhs....all supported me. Reminds me of the film "Kick it like Beckham" when the Sikh family support their daughter.

We have the same surname , so from that we do not know caste. The only RACE I know is the Human race.

For anyone who is scared to break family taboos, would you rather break your own values and beliefs. We had a beautiful gift from God , our son. I refused to accept my parents wishes...and every doubt was/is taken away by my son. My family adores him.

God gave me a gift.

Those who stop others from having such a chance are wrong.
 

jhelmick

SPNer
Mar 1, 2011
38
45
Tacoma WA
This is really difficult for me. Although I am professed Agnostic, as I look at the passages in the Holy Book, remember my discussions with Tejwant ji, I find I really respect Sikh. I may be interested in becoming Sikh, is that possible for someone like me? The teachings truly appeal to me, especially the lack of heaven and hell. I don't know what I would do, though, since I am not legally married to my significant other. This thread has me thinking...
 

jhelmick

SPNer
Mar 1, 2011
38
45
Tacoma WA
in life we have a LOT to learn, our best teacher is sir guru granth ji, NO OTHER.

I accept that as your personal opinion and respect it. I have yet to come to that conclusion. Only time will tell if I do. I think what it all boils down to, is what helps you make it through daily life, which is different from all of us. Even if we're in the same faith, it is still different for each, in the end.
 

jhelmick

SPNer
Mar 1, 2011
38
45
Tacoma WA
Mar 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? tempting him.
Mar 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

I find it curious you quote only from Mark. It's also been suggested that Paul the Taxman cum Godman wrote the majority of the New Testament through his letters to various tribes. I challenge anyone to consider the fact that there have been countless writings actually BANNED from the Christian Bible. I will be honest, I have come to have serious concerns over something called the Word of God that has been edited and published by man. While there are great stories and even some good teachings contained therein, it could never be the "inspired Word of God." Too tainted by dirty human hands. Thoughts?

Respectfully,
Jesse
 

Tammy1949

SPNer
Nov 4, 2011
4
0
36
my answer is No. its because if i will marry some one out of caste then it will create many problems regarding religions coz i will want my child to follow sikhism and his mother will want child to follow her religion and child will get confused and reach nowhere... he will have very different point of view??... he will b in trouble everytime...
 

lionsingh

SPNer
Nov 7, 2010
105
67
my answer is No. its because if i will marry some one out of caste then it will create many problems regarding religions coz i will want my child to follow sikhism and his mother will want child to follow her religion and child will get confused and reach nowhere... he will have very different point of view??... he will b in trouble everytime...
What caste ? You see things that Sikhism doesnt/shouldnt. My child isnt confused and very successful and happy.....perhaps it is because WE ARE GOOD PARENTS first !!! not a caste or label as you only see.:grinningsingh:
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
my answer is No. its because if i will marry some one out of caste then it will create many problems regarding religions coz i will want my child to follow sikhism and his mother will want child to follow her religion and child will get confused and reach nowhere... he will have very different point of view??... he will b in trouble everytime...

you said caste..... don't you mean out of religion?
 

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